If you win 2 Superbowls with what most people claim is a cast of nobodies and a below average QB (that's the perception), you're a Hall of Fame coach. Add in his time in Jacksonville and I think he's Canton bound.
and the work TC did with that expansion franchise when considering TC's chances. Starting a team from scratch and leading it to the AFC championship game in their 2nd season plus 2 Super Bowl wins as head coach of NYG (beating one of the greatest coach/QB combos both times) along with his longevity and philanthropic ventures while being in the league will get him in the HOF. Maybe not first ballot, but he will get in.
Jacksonville wasn't exactly started from scratch. I doubt you will find an expansion draft or expansion approach like 1995 again in the NFL. Actually, most of the owners vowed this right after Tagliabue got his votes. Holding true to their words, Cleveland and Houston did not get the same deal in 99. Which Cleveland fans still bitch about as well as the relocation.
in McAdoo's West Coast-style offense, his career numbers are going to look A LOT better than they do now, and people will remember the late-career efficiency and the early-career championships...
Before Jacksonville has even played a down in 1995, TC trades a 3rd and 5th Round pick to Green Bay for a backup QB who barely saw the field playing behind Brett Favre:
Mark Brunell - who leads the Jags to the Playoffs 3 of their first 4 seasons after taking over a few games into their inaugural season, and also goes to 3 Pro Bowls before injuries hit.
During his first draft in 1995, TC picks QB Rob Johnson in the FOURTH Round. Coughlin later trades Johnson to Buffalo for their FIRST Round and 4th Round picks: Coughlin uses that 1st Round pick acquired from the Bills on a RB:
Fred Taylor - who rushes for over 1K yards 7 times as a Jaguar, selected All-Pro once, and finishes his career with over 10K yards rushing.
Also in 1995, TC signs a Free Agent WR to a small contract after he had already been cut twice by the Jerry Jones Cowboys and the Andy Reid Eagles in previous seasons:
Jimmy Smith - Coughlin spends a year rebuilding the kid from the ground up while he plays Special Teams. Smith has 9 seasons over 1K receiving as a Jag and plays in 5 Pro Bowls.
That’s how TC acquired the Pro Bowl level QB, RB, and WR at the heart of his Jaguar Offense, all for the cost of a 3rd, a 4th and a 5th Round pick.
NFL people know exactly how great a job did building the Jags from nothing, even if casual fans don't.
There's a lot of other head coaches and players that are going to be considered before him.
Victor Cruz right now is on a projection to finish with some great numbers. He already has the championship - if he stays healthy and stays consistent, he'll probably be the next Giants hall of famer, assuming that he finishes before Eli.
Much like all the major sport HOF's it has been watered down dramatically.
Eli, Cruz, Coughlin, Warner, Rolle...have no reason to be in Canton. Period.
Where did we go wrong?
HOF is the cream of the crop, not a great year followed by three shitty years, repeat.
Eli is no more a fucking HOF QB than both my brothers. Peyton, yes.
Coughlin- much , much closer. However, there is inconsistency and that is where it breaks down. Currently, and back to my original point, it isn't the best of the best anymore. You have all these variables in place such as the veterans, etc, etc.
What ever happened to leaving it to your center fielder getting in that had a lifetime 330 while hitting 500 homers as opposed to including the SS who hit 280 over his career but showed up big in a few World Series?
I quess the participation awards start at the top and trickle down.
Our obsession with Eli being a HOF QB is a direct result of the years watching the dysfunction at QB for so many years on our team. And to think, there was a time, before Eli, that Giant fans actually convinced themselves that Phil was also a HOF QB based on the putrid run before him.
I like Eli, am thankful for his playoff caliber of play, but going 25/16 year in and out is not a HOF QB.
too. While he did well with a talented expansion team, he also got fired when the team did not perform well for three straight losing years. And, in essence, that is going to be the debate about him. He had some very good years and some not so good years during his career. The Giants tenure can be looked at as fantastic from 2004-2008--then besides six weeks in 2011, from 2009-present it has been very average. Not to mention the collapses that surely will be debated In the end, he is a very good coach, but was he a game changing coach in the spirit of Walsh, Gibbs, Parcells, etc--I don't think so. Those guys get in automatically. If you look at TC, I think he gets in if this doesn't turn really bad here, but it will be a long debated candidacy and far from a sure thing.
I expect George Young to get in. As for Eli, there's a reasonable case to be made that once he's done playing his career stats will look really good compared to some of the all time greats - especially if his completion % goes up and INTs go down in this new offense. But it's safe to say he is NOT perceived as HOFer by the national media (i.e. the voters)...and he's going to have to do quite a bit to change that perception over the last 4-5 years of his career.
I wouldn't hold my breath on any more punters any time soon, but maybe.
Barber may fall just short with no rings. He could have played another couple of years and cemented his legacy as a HOF career. Without those last thousands of yards (depending on how many years), he might just be shy of getting in.
Eli is very likely, but needs a strong finish to his career to cement it.
As for Simms, he is a tough case. His numbers are actually better than some high profile HOF QBs, but he played in a different era. When compared to his contemporaries (Montana, Elway, Marino, etc.) he does fall short; probably way short.
Banks simply doesn't have the longevity at the highest level. He had a few years as one of the top 5 LBs in the game and then dropped off that level.
Eli is very likely, but needs a strong finish to his career to cement it.
As for Simms, he is a tough case. His numbers are actually better than some high profile HOF QBs, but he played in a different era. When compared to his contemporaries (Montana, Elway, Marino, etc.) he does fall short; probably way short.
Banks simply doesn't have the longevity at the highest level. He had a few years as one of the top 5 LBs in the game and then dropped off that level.
As for Simms you just picked 3 of the best QB's in history as his contemporaries...dig a little deeper on guys who are already in.
Banks? At what point in his career exactly did his game drop off in your opinion? The way that you phrased it, it looks like by his third year. Are you serious?
but Banks only made one. All of the linebackers of the modern era (LT, Singletary, Tippet, Ricky Jackson, Carson, Derrick Thomas, Lambert, Brooks, Hendricks, Ham, Lanier) made it 5+ times...and many of them made it 9 or 10 times. Whatever the reasons, it seems Banks was't perceived as being that level of player during his playing days.
I don't think it is even close. The opinion on him outside of NY differs so greatly than the NY media. I don't think quarterbacks winning the SB is a big deal to writers anymore. His contemporaries will be too much for him to overcome with voters as well. Just stat records and season MVP wise.
maybe an honor at the stadium for his contribution to the team in righting the Giants ship, but his record as a GM was not so consistently amazing that it warrants HOF status.
He drafted LT and Simms but also Derek Brown, Dave Brown and Jarrod Bunch in the first rounds.
I think Eli makes the HOF based on the assumption Â
he finishes the last few seasons of his career with better numbers. Eli is much better than what his current stats reflect, and I think finally we'll have an offensive system that will be more QB-friendly. I guarantee he will not have another 18+ int season.
And because he has 2 Super Bowl wins and 2 Super Bowl MVP's, Eli doesn't need to have superb numbers to get in. He'll make it if he finishes with "above average" passing stats.
My point about Simms in comparison to his contemporaries was exactly what you highlighted. He is better than a number of HOF QBs from other eras. But, in a direct comparison to guys in his era he was unfortunate to have played with a few of the all time greats and at the end of his career against Aikman, as well. He was certainly a very good QB. But, he was never the best of his time, which knocks him down a peg. Plus, the fact that he wasn't the starting QB for the 2nd SB seems to hurt him as well, although I don't think it should.
As for Banks, he had a stretch of a few years when he was absolutely dominant. His last year or two in NY and then his time elsewhere, he was still a good LB. But, he wasn't dominant or among the top handful in the league. If he sustained his greatness for longer, he would go to the HOF.
of getting into the HOF as any of us on this thread.
You talk a lot of crap for knowing very little about the game.
Did you want to quiz me or something Andrew?
Look...Simms and Banks were great Giants, but they were only good NFL players at their respective positions. Both made a couple of pro bowls and I don't think were ever All-Pros. HOF basically means you were a dominant player in the period you played.
already has more yards and TDs than Simms and a bunch of other guys who are IN the HOF, like Namath and Griese. He is already ahead of Kurt Warner who everyone thinks is going in. Plus he has the 2 SB MVPs.
He's averaged 3927 yards per season and 25 TDs per season over 9 years. If he does even that well for another 5 years, his totals would be: 54,980 yards and 356 TDs
That alone might do it. Add in at least 2 SB MVPs, and I'm guessing he gets in. Maybe not on the first ballot, but he gets in. And if he wins another title, it won't matter at all what his numbers were or what the rest of the league may have felt about him. He'll be a first ballot.
As for Simms, a case could be made, but I think if it were gonna happen, it would have happened already.
And I would bet my mortgage that his candidacy is heavily debated. He hasn't won a playoff game here besides 07 and 11. He missed the playoffs 4 of 5 years, and let's be frank, this team is far from a lock to end that streak. He is a very good coach, but I am not sure how he is a lock. If you put a gun to my head, I would say Yes if this is his last year. If the Giants continue to slide and he coaches 2 or 3 more years, the case becomes worse and worse.
You haters are never going to give up. He's a lock and it's not even close. There are 12 coaches who have won more than 1 SB. 3 (Belichik, Coughlin and Shanahan) aren't eligible yet. Of the remaining 10, 7 are in the HOF. Only Seifert, Flores and Jimmy Johnson. Johnson was a semifinalist this year. Belichik is a lock.
The common thread with Seifert, Flores and Johnson is that they all crashed and burned with their second opportunities. Coughlin had success with Jax and then won multiple times with the Giants. He's a lock for the HOF.
Too often we all get caught up in numbers and stats. That's not what the HOF is all about.
HOF is about dominance during one's career: it's for the best of the best, the players and coaches and leaders who influenced the game the most during their tenures.
Neither Carl Banks nor Phil Simms falls into that category. I don't think George Young does either, but I can see why some would think so.
Of current Giants, only Eli and TC will gain consideration: the former because he shined in two super bowls and the latter because of a consistent string of quality seasons with two organizations that were in bad shape when he came on board.
But that said, I think only TC will get the nod.
Unless Eli gets a third ring - then he'll be considered a dominant player during his career. But I don't think that's going to happen.
Simms is never getting in
Jacksonville wasn't exactly started from scratch. I doubt you will find an expansion draft or expansion approach like 1995 again in the NFL. Actually, most of the owners vowed this right after Tagliabue got his votes. Holding true to their words, Cleveland and Houston did not get the same deal in 99. Which Cleveland fans still bitch about as well as the relocation.
That's funny. I thought of Landeta. I was young so I don't remember his career that well but I always thought of him as a great punter.
Mark Brunell - who leads the Jags to the Playoffs 3 of their first 4 seasons after taking over a few games into their inaugural season, and also goes to 3 Pro Bowls before injuries hit.
During his first draft in 1995, TC picks QB Rob Johnson in the FOURTH Round. Coughlin later trades Johnson to Buffalo for their FIRST Round and 4th Round picks: Coughlin uses that 1st Round pick acquired from the Bills on a RB:
Fred Taylor - who rushes for over 1K yards 7 times as a Jaguar, selected All-Pro once, and finishes his career with over 10K yards rushing.
Also in 1995, TC signs a Free Agent WR to a small contract after he had already been cut twice by the Jerry Jones Cowboys and the Andy Reid Eagles in previous seasons:
Jimmy Smith - Coughlin spends a year rebuilding the kid from the ground up while he plays Special Teams. Smith has 9 seasons over 1K receiving as a Jag and plays in 5 Pro Bowls.
That’s how TC acquired the Pro Bowl level QB, RB, and WR at the heart of his Jaguar Offense, all for the cost of a 3rd, a 4th and a 5th Round pick.
NFL people know exactly how great a job did building the Jags from nothing, even if casual fans don't.
Victor Cruz right now is on a projection to finish with some great numbers. He already has the championship - if he stays healthy and stays consistent, he'll probably be the next Giants hall of famer, assuming that he finishes before Eli.
2 SBs (at least) and he's gonna have the numbers as well.
Eli, Cruz, Coughlin, Warner, Rolle...have no reason to be in Canton. Period.
Where did we go wrong?
HOF is the cream of the crop, not a great year followed by three shitty years, repeat.
Eli is no more a fucking HOF QB than both my brothers. Peyton, yes.
Coughlin- much , much closer. However, there is inconsistency and that is where it breaks down. Currently, and back to my original point, it isn't the best of the best anymore. You have all these variables in place such as the veterans, etc, etc.
What ever happened to leaving it to your center fielder getting in that had a lifetime 330 while hitting 500 homers as opposed to including the SS who hit 280 over his career but showed up big in a few World Series?
I quess the participation awards start at the top and trickle down.
Our obsession with Eli being a HOF QB is a direct result of the years watching the dysfunction at QB for so many years on our team. And to think, there was a time, before Eli, that Giant fans actually convinced themselves that Phil was also a HOF QB based on the putrid run before him.
I like Eli, am thankful for his playoff caliber of play, but going 25/16 year in and out is not a HOF QB.
They are BOTH underappreciated by the writers. In Banks' case, purely because of his position and the fact that Taylor and Carson are in.
Simms deserves to be in...compare his stats to those of his contempraries, as well as those who played before him who are in.
By the way, Namath needs to be thrown out with the writers admitting that they only voted him in because he was "Broadway Joe"
You talk a lot of crap for knowing very little about the game.
Barber may fall just short with no rings. He could have played another couple of years and cemented his legacy as a HOF career. Without those last thousands of yards (depending on how many years), he might just be shy of getting in.
As for Simms, he is a tough case. His numbers are actually better than some high profile HOF QBs, but he played in a different era. When compared to his contemporaries (Montana, Elway, Marino, etc.) he does fall short; probably way short.
Banks simply doesn't have the longevity at the highest level. He had a few years as one of the top 5 LBs in the game and then dropped off that level.
As for Simms, he is a tough case. His numbers are actually better than some high profile HOF QBs, but he played in a different era. When compared to his contemporaries (Montana, Elway, Marino, etc.) he does fall short; probably way short.
Banks simply doesn't have the longevity at the highest level. He had a few years as one of the top 5 LBs in the game and then dropped off that level.
As for Simms you just picked 3 of the best QB's in history as his contemporaries...dig a little deeper on guys who are already in.
Banks? At what point in his career exactly did his game drop off in your opinion? The way that you phrased it, it looks like by his third year. Are you serious?
He drafted LT and Simms but also Derek Brown, Dave Brown and Jarrod Bunch in the first rounds.
And because he has 2 Super Bowl wins and 2 Super Bowl MVP's, Eli doesn't need to have superb numbers to get in. He'll make it if he finishes with "above average" passing stats.
As for Banks, he had a stretch of a few years when he was absolutely dominant. His last year or two in NY and then his time elsewhere, he was still a good LB. But, he wasn't dominant or among the top handful in the league. If he sustained his greatness for longer, he would go to the HOF.
Quote:
of getting into the HOF as any of us on this thread.
You talk a lot of crap for knowing very little about the game.
Did you want to quiz me or something Andrew?
Look...Simms and Banks were great Giants, but they were only good NFL players at their respective positions. Both made a couple of pro bowls and I don't think were ever All-Pros. HOF basically means you were a dominant player in the period you played.
He's averaged 3927 yards per season and 25 TDs per season over 9 years. If he does even that well for another 5 years, his totals would be: 54,980 yards and 356 TDs
That alone might do it. Add in at least 2 SB MVPs, and I'm guessing he gets in. Maybe not on the first ballot, but he gets in. And if he wins another title, it won't matter at all what his numbers were or what the rest of the league may have felt about him. He'll be a first ballot.
As for Simms, a case could be made, but I think if it were gonna happen, it would have happened already.
The common thread with Seifert, Flores and Johnson is that they all crashed and burned with their second opportunities. Coughlin had success with Jax and then won multiple times with the Giants. He's a lock for the HOF.
HOF is about dominance during one's career: it's for the best of the best, the players and coaches and leaders who influenced the game the most during their tenures.
Neither Carl Banks nor Phil Simms falls into that category. I don't think George Young does either, but I can see why some would think so.
Of current Giants, only Eli and TC will gain consideration: the former because he shined in two super bowls and the latter because of a consistent string of quality seasons with two organizations that were in bad shape when he came on board.
But that said, I think only TC will get the nod.
Unless Eli gets a third ring - then he'll be considered a dominant player during his career. But I don't think that's going to happen.
I also think T.C. will be the next Giants inductee.