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Bad Decisions/Bad Luck: 2008-2012 NYG Drafts Have Gutted

Eric from BBI : Admin : 8/10/2014 10:44 am
this team...
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nyg/draft.htm - ( New Window )
Kind of a glass half empty/half full situation  
gersh : 8/10/2014 11:00 am : link
The last 2 drafts still may prove to be great ones

Before that, as you say, - Wilson (bad luck), Austin (bad decision) really determine the 2 prior drafts.

Jacquian, Jernigan, Randle, Mosley and Kuhn still have a lot to say before we say 2011 and 2012 were bad drafts

Besides JPP (and Nicks), it's difficult to say anything positive about the 2009 and 2010 drafts (Maybe Beatty if he turns it around)
Glad to see you finally  
oldutican : 8/10/2014 11:10 am : link
come around on how bad Giant drafts have been.
....  
gersh : 8/10/2014 11:10 am : link
oh, and Linval was a very good 2nd round pick.
Replacing him with a another very good 2nd rounder to avoid having to over-pay Linval deserves praise
Bigger mistake than drafting - keeping draft picks around  
Jupiter : 8/10/2014 11:11 am : link
It is bad enough that they make mistakes in Rounds 1-4, especially 2-4 and when they trade up for a mediocre player.

It is even worse when they keep a pick into the second or third year hoping that he will improve.

Some guys should be cut in the first season. Most should be cut in the second season if they don't make dramatic improvements.
I'd like to see a list  
bignygfan : 8/10/2014 12:04 pm : link
of the teams with the great drafts in this time span.

San Francisco is one. Oh interesting how they got to make every pick ahead of us. Seattle is another one - too bad we missed on Earl Thomas and Russell Okung - we had a real shot at those guys.

You guys act like teams draft in a vacuum and it doesn't work like that.

Eh, the only draft I really consider a bad one is 2009.  
CRotondi : 8/10/2014 12:21 pm : link
No teams' draft picks all turn out to be contributing starters.
Wilson wasn't just bad luck.  
Jerz44 : 8/10/2014 12:34 pm : link
RB's should pretty much never be first round picks.
RE: Eh, the only draft I really consider a bad one is 2009.  
baadbill : 8/10/2014 12:40 pm : link
In comment 11801394 CRotondi said:
Quote:
No teams' draft picks all turn out to be contributing starters.


I call BS. EVERY single draft in history has produced:
1. Future Pro Bowl players; AND
2. Future HOF players.

I'm going to do Eric on better. Going back to when George Young left this team, provide me with the list of the Giant's share of Pro Bowl and HOF players they should have received in drafts dating back to what, 1990? Strahan. Armstead. Manning. Snee. In 25 years? A quarter of a century? Compare that to the same period under George Young (who was there for a lot less than 25 years) - and it isn't even close.
the draft was  
msh : 8/10/2014 12:58 pm : link
also 14 rounds back then and there was no salary cap to worry about so its still not the same

if you want to bitch about previous gm look at accorsi ron dayne,jeff hatch,roderick babers,nick griesen etc his drafts were WAY worse than anything reese has done

reese's drafts won this team 2 superbowls jpp,osi,bradshaw,kiwi,snee,diehl,steve smith,nicks,prince,jacobs,manningham were all major contibutors on 2 superbowl runs he was also smart enough not to overpay to keep osi,nicks and smith on the roster too which is under appreciated by many too

also gilbride and some of the defensive co-ordinators never made the best use of the talent reese gave them in recent years either

hindsight is 20/20 vision the draft is an educated guessing game you look for guys that have the size,strength,speed,brains and play a scheme that is close to yours and hope they can make the jump from college to nfl level,and hope is all it is

the majority cant its finding that 5-10% that can be great (probowl/hof) or the 25% that are solid from the rest that are subpar due to fit/athletic ablity or intelegence to make the grade and the final third+ that are pure busts
An interesting comparison with the Giants  
giantgiantfan : 8/10/2014 1:00 pm : link
would be against teams who have remained competitive over that timespan: 49ers, Patriots, Steelers, Colts, Ravens, Green Bay.
The 49ers have just exited a period where they were absolute garbage  
Ten Ton Hammer : 8/10/2014 1:24 pm : link
for 10 years.

Not sure if anyone's been watching the Steelers in recent years, but they havent been that competitive either.
Steelers are very comparable to us  
giantgiantfan : 8/10/2014 1:35 pm : link
since 2008. They sucked the last two years, but otherwise were competitive including a SB win and SB appearance.
With a change in offensive scheme, roster turnover at WR  
Ten Ton Hammer : 8/10/2014 1:40 pm : link
and all over the defense, and having to rebuild an offensive line on the run.

Comparable to us since 2012, but nowhere near the standard they've lived up to in competitive years. Even let the Ravens nab a super bowl win.
This team right now significantly lacks talent in quite a few places.  
Riggies : 8/10/2014 1:48 pm : link
They've missed the playoffs out of a mediocre (at best) division four out of the last five seasons and even though they won a SB in that other season, only a homer is going to pretend that roster was anything close to loaded.

If you want to argue their drafting has been acceptable, fine, but what is causing the problem (and there is one) then? It's not all been bad injury luck, because some of the yearly injuries are to not good (at that point) players. The buck has to land somewhere.
we may not draft pro bowlers,  
SHO'NUFF : 8/10/2014 1:52 pm : link
but we sure do have a lot of team captains!
RE: An interesting comparison with the Giants  
Kulish29 : 8/10/2014 1:53 pm : link
In comment 11801457 giantgiantfan said:
Quote:
would be against teams who have remained competitive over that timespan: 49ers, Patriots, Steelers, Colts, Ravens, Green Bay.


The Patriots drafts haven't been all that impressive in the Belichick era
Link - ( New Window )
They have the worst mix  
Reb8thVA : 8/10/2014 2:30 pm : link
A lack of sufficient talent at the playmaking positions and an unsteady foundation in the OL. The drafts have sucked in recent years and that is where the blame lies. It doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure it out. To me its all on JR and Ross. I sure hope Beckham is the player they think he is but if Eli is continually under durress it wont matter. What will be the excuses this year if the line still sucks. Too many spots to fill? Bad options available? Everyone knows the line about excuses.
How did the Giants miss on Okung and Thomas?  
BSIMatt : 8/10/2014 4:01 pm : link
They both were drafted ahead of where the Giants selected. It is not like they passed on either. JPP was arguably the best defensive football player in 2011, if the Giants dont have him that year they dont win the superbowl, he practically was the defense that year.
2012 is shaping up to be a meh draft  
fkap : 8/10/2014 6:03 pm : link
everyone on it is a big question mark or worse, including Wilson. We'll never know with Wilson.

2011 is pretty lackluster, aside from Prince and J Williams (who is still in the will he or won't he have any sort of career).

those are the two years that there should be a reasonable number of starters and depth that we can count on stepping up now. We have one definite (Prince), 2 maybes (Wilson, Randle), and 3 sorta maybes (JWilliams, Kuhn, Jernigan). Assuming not all the maybes/sorta maybes won't make it, that's not good.

It's not so much that we haven't picked a winner or two every year. It's that all the rest are either duds or we're still waiting for them to step up the the plate of being contributors (ala J Williams or Jernigan). Only fools expect every selection to be a winner, but we have far too many duds and not enough lunchpail guys to beef up depth or be wannabe starters. Too many questionable (whether or not they'll even give us minor contribution) players like Brewer, JJ, Kuhn, Robinson clogging up the roster, not enough guys you know will give you modest contribution and the only question is how much.
2013 draft looks like a good one.  
Klaatu : 8/10/2014 6:46 pm : link
So does the 2014, even with Beckham on the shelf for now. Maybe JR has turned a corner when it comes to his drafts? At the very least, I think he's earned the right to atone for his mistakes and return the Giants to glory.
RE: The 49ers have just exited a period where they were absolute garbage  
FStubbs : 8/10/2014 8:44 pm : link
In comment 11801479 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
for 10 years.

Not sure if anyone's been watching the Steelers in recent years, but they havent been that competitive either.


Number of Niners rings since '94: 0
Number of Giants rings since '94: 2

I know which side I want to be on.
Ive mentioned it before,  
j_rud : 8/10/2014 10:19 pm : link
17 of 37 draft picks selected over the past 5 drafts are no longer in the NFL. That means 45% of Reese's draft picks didn't just work out with this team, they couldn't find a spot on the other 31 teams as well. That is absolutely pathetic and completely unacceptable. Reese hasn't just been not good, he's been pretty awful.
RE: I'd like to see a list  
LauderdaleMatty : 8/10/2014 11:36 pm : link
In comment 11801369 bignygfan said:
Quote:
of the teams with the great drafts in this time span.

San Francisco is one. Oh interesting how they got to make every pick ahead of us. Seattle is another one - too bad we missed on Earl Thomas and Russell Okung - we had a real shot at those guys.

You guys act like teams draft in a vacuum and it doesn't work like that.


Worse we passed on Max Unger to take Sintim. Most of Reese's drafts for many reasons have sucked.
That's my point BSI  
bignygfan : 8/11/2014 3:11 am : link
we couldn't get those guys but yet we credit Seattle for great drafting.

I call bs on that.
Reese's drafts didn't win this team jack  
BigBlueCane : 8/11/2014 5:21 am : link
It was Accorsi's drafting and Gettlemen's FA signings that won this team those rings.
Yes, 2008-2012 look pretty bad.  
Big Blue Blogger : 8/11/2014 6:43 am : link
But is that period really worse than 1998-2002? Those were Ernie Accorsi's first five years as GM, after which he wisely handed over most draft-related operations to a bright young scout named Jerry Reese.

Four of the five first-round picks were OK value. Shockey was the best of the group, though I'm not sure he was a better pick, all things considered, than Nicks or Pierre-Paul. After Round 1, Accorsi's first five drafts were pretty much a train wreck. Cornelius Griffin and Dhani Jones were the only guys who really exceeded their draft position (and the Giants still let them walk).

2002
1 14 Jeremy Shockey
2 46 Tim Carter
3 78 Jeff Hatch
5 152 Nick Greisen
6 188 Wesly Mallard
7 226 Daryl Jones
7 245 Quincy Monk
2001
1 22 Will Allen
3 78 Will Peterson
4 114 Cedric Scott
4 125 Jesse Palmer
5 160 John Markham
5 162 Jonathan Carter
7 230 Ross Kolodziej
2000
1 11 Ron Dayne
2 42 Cornelius Griffin
3 73 Ron Dixon
4 105 Brandon Short
5 140 Ralph Brown
6 177 Dhani Jones
7 217 Jeremiah Parker
1999
1 19 Luke Petitgout
2 49 Joe Montgomery
3 79 Dan Campbell
4 112 Sean Bennett
5 149 Mike Rosenthal
6 189 Lyle West
6 205 Andre Weathers
7 225 Ryan Hale
7 231 O.J. Childress
1998
1 24 Shaun Williams
2 55 Joe Jurevicius
3 70 Brian Alford
5 147 Toby Myles
6 177 Todd Pollack
7 213 Ben Fricke
It is not just the draft...  
EricJ (formerly Tyleraimee) : 8/11/2014 6:50 am : link
it is how you manage the entire off season and roster. Free agent signings count also.

We have had a shit O-line for the past few years and IMO this is where Gilbride was under rated. Generating SOME sort of running game with mirrors.

To the guy who said cited salary cap era when discussing why George Young produced more pro bowlers and hall of famers...
How many guys did we lose to free agency (since George Young left) that ended up being a pro bowl player or hall of fame quality player on another team?

How many guys did we lose to free agency who even came back and made a significant play vs the Giants?
Kenny Phillips? no
Manningham? no
Bradshaw? no
Boss? no
Jacobs? no
Gibril? no
D ward? no
Osi? no
Shiancoe? no
Kevin Walker? maybe one catch?
Shockey (the BBI beloved) NO!
Will Allen? No
Ron Dayne? No
Cornelius Griffin? Maybe a couple of run stops
Shaun Williams? no
Ike Hilliard? Maybe a couple of catches
Sam Garnes? NO
Tyrone Wheatley? No
Bratzke? No

I think I went back far enough. So, this tells me that the guys we lost....eh no big deal at the time. Really did not hurt our team.

How many truly impactful free agent signings? This I admit that I will need a lot of help with. I can come up with just a few that made a huge impact for us.
Victor Pierce
Michael Brooks
Derrick Ward
Victor Cruz
Weatherford
Feagles

Can someone help finish this list? I am sure there are a few more.

Eli will be the closest thing to a hall of fame player since Strahan. Nobody else is remotely close.
And looking at those first-round picks...  
Big Blue Blogger : 8/11/2014 6:56 am : link
... was 1998-2002 really any better than 2008-2012?
Shockey vs. Nicks
Williams vs. Phillips
Allen vs. Amukamara
Petitgout vs. Pierre-Paul
Dayne vs. Wilson

Once you get past the first round, Linval Joseph offsets Griffin, Jacquian Williams offsets Jones, and Reese/Ross's other good picks (Terrell Thomas and Mario Manningham at least, with others still possibly to emerge) are gravy. And that's despite all the terrible luck Reese has had with injuries and accidents.
I've been singing this song for 3 years. The 2007 draft was amazing.  
Victor in CT : 8/11/2014 8:33 am : link
The rest have been mediocre at best. T0o soon to say about 2013 and 2014
It's simple.  
LauderdaleMatty : 8/11/2014 8:54 am : link
When Accorsi was the GM every good pick and signing was Reese

Now the Reese is the actual GM every bad pick or signing is either Marc Ross or Geettleman or anyone else's fault.

It's amazing. The OL disinigrates and the guy who is actually in charge isnt at fault. Yup let's grab wide receivers and defensive linimen every year. Wait until the OL is disaster and then grab guys high and force then on the field. The amount of offensive linemen Reese has passed up is huge and we basically have one great WR on the roster and he was a luck FA grab. And when barely none of his high picks are on the team anymore questioning him goes right back to. Wait for it.

He built the Super Bowl teams and his underlings have fucked up since.

Tedious.
LauderdaleMatty: Keep flogging that straw man.  
Big Blue Blogger : 8/11/2014 9:26 am : link
Obviously, Reese is the top guy, and he's accountable for the bottom line. It shouldn't even be necessary to restate that basic fact. The point of comparing Reese's performance to Young's last five years, or Accorsi's first five - or Ozzie Newsome or Bill Belichick or anyone else - is to get a realistic benchmark.

The job of an NFL GM is really, really hard. Do I wish Jerry Reese could bat .800 instead of, say, .280? Sure. But nobody has ever batted .800.

As for Reese's role from 2003-2006, the point isn't that he should get all the credit for Osi Umenyiora and Justin Tuck, and none of the blame for William Joseph and Sinorice Moss. The point is that his promotion coincided with a dramatic improvement in the team's drafting - which had completely sucked since Ernie took over in 1998 - and that the improvement largely justified his elevation to GM.
Blogger. It gets old.  
LauderdaleMatty : 8/11/2014 9:44 am : link
Yes you can compare and should compare Reese vs his peers. But if some of his peers do badly does that excuse Reese. And please it's not a straw man. There have been a ton of posts blaming Marc Ross for these bad drafts. As if Reese is being mind controlled.

Heck to be honest I think Bill B is a horrible GM. But he has Brady and is the best NFL coach IMO that I've ever seen.

You can compare drafts all you want though. Of course here are guys who are worse. Even respected ones. But doesn't mean he should get a pass. I don't agree with his basic philosophy. You don't grab WRs every year when your OL is falling apart. If they can draft Hankins to replace Joseph so as not to over pay him why couldn't they have drafted a tackle in the early rounds to replace DD or even better Beatty who is a major question mark. In the drafts that are in question here he's drafted 3 position groups overwhelming over others. That's a fact. That he's missed on most of those picks is a fact.

The defense is going to have to carry this team and that's a direct result of some of the worst OL building in the NFL. If George Young or Bill B or any other GM has messed up too that's scant splice.

Reese ignored the OL for high picks pretty much his whole.career until these last two. It's a fact. That the OL sucking hurt this team the last two years is fact.

Keep banks the Reese drum while Eli runs for his life.
RE: Wilson wasn't just bad luck.  
jeff57 : 8/11/2014 10:26 am : link
In comment 11801415 Jerz44 said:
Quote:
RB's should pretty much never be first round picks.


Agreed. And they passed over Lavonte David and Cordy Glenn among others.
Kerry Collins was under similar siege in 2001 and 2003.  
Big Blue Blogger : 8/11/2014 10:28 am : link
Accorsi tried to squeeze an extra year out of the geezers in 2001, then tried to patch together a cheap line from Luke Petitgout and a bunch of spare parts in 2003. History has largely repeated itself, right down to the young left tackle who got paid to anchor the line, then promptly fell off a cliff.

Again, Ernie's failures don't justify Jerry's. They just underscore how difficult it is to address every need - and maintain decent depth - under a hard cap. When Petitgout's back went out in 2003, it set off a chain reaction similar to Beatty's struggles ten years later. A GM has to place bets on somebody. If the big bets fail, there are consequences. A GM who places a lot of bad bets will lose his job. Jerry Reese isn't above criticism. It just seems to me that he meets any reasonable expectation of job performance.
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