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Is Trindon Holliday making this team?

Mike in Long Beach : 8/11/2014 11:08 am
Such a weird situation here. Rarely can I recall a scenario with our G-Men where there has been such a divide from fans and pundits alike. Usually if there is a debate on whether or not a player should make the roster, the player in question is either the last one on or the first one out.

In Holliday's case, those who think he has an opportunity to be a tremendous playmaker on special teams root for him to be a lock, and those who don't have him as far down as NINTH on our WR depth chart (behind the likes of Washington, Harris, Parker and Manningham).

Manningham's disappearing act this summer has helped Holliday's chances, but Holliday's hammy injury hasn't given him the opportunity to prove what he's capable of yet, either.

My gut feeling is it'll be Cruz, Randle, Jernigan, Beckham, Washington and Holliday... with Harris, Parker and Manningham getting the boot.. but that's just me. In, fact, I saw one roster projection on ESPN where Holliday wasn't even listed as cut! He was just disregarded entirely as a possibility.

I haven't really picked up on a BBI consensus. Is there one? And if so.. what the heck is it?
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If they go with 4 DT  
beatrixkiddo : 8/11/2014 12:34 pm : link
I'd guess Patterson is the odd man out. Bromley has looked very well for a rookie DT, but it is still very early. I think it's likely they carry 9 DL all together, either an 5th DT or a 5th DE.

What's interesting is I have noticed that they have been using DE's as DT and DTas DE's in this pre-season (moving them all over the line, I know I saw Moore and Ayers play inside, and I saw Bromley play on the outside at least once). The DT position is pretty clear as to who they would keep if 5, I think there is good competition at DE, and it may be there that they look to add another body. My guess is JPP, Moore, Kiwi, Ayers, and Wynn if they go with 5 DE.
I can't see them only keeping 4 DTs  
Ten Ton Hammer : 8/11/2014 12:37 pm : link
It's basically a cornerstone of this defense to be able to roll in and out a steady rotation of defensive linemen.
pjcas  
BillT : 8/11/2014 12:41 pm : link
Harris not Holliday!
Heck, is Jernigan even a lock  
barens : 8/11/2014 12:43 pm : link
to make the team?
RE: pjcas  
pjcas18 : 8/11/2014 12:46 pm : link
In comment 11802813 BillT said:
Quote:
Harris not Holliday!


Got it, makes much more sense.
RE: He's too much of a special teams weapon ...  
santacruzom : 8/11/2014 12:46 pm : link
In comment 11802661 Manny in CA said:
Quote:
To cut.



I think that mindset in general hurts the Giants as presently constructed and coached. They're better off keeping the guys who play their real position well at the expense of a guy who might be a better special teamer. It's not like our ST unit is likely to be an asset anyway.

Wouldn't it be better to have, say, a stronger/deeper WR core and a shitty ST unit than a much weaker WR unit and only a slightly, sliiightly less shitty ST unit?
RE: Heck, is Jernigan even a lock  
Mike in Long Beach : 8/11/2014 12:47 pm : link
In comment 11802814 barens said:
Quote:
to make the team?


I was thinking about this.. I would say 95%, but not 100%.

I think Mara sorta talked himself into a corner regarding Jernigan after last year's quality play. I of course know it's not Mara's final say, but I just can't see the coaching staff taking a flyer on Harris or Washington only to cut a guy the owner just a few months ago said is a quality player when given an opportunity.

But it's interesting. It would be very, very very surprising to me... but crazier shit has happened.
barens  
BillT : 8/11/2014 12:47 pm : link
No, but Jernigan may be the #6 WR when all is said and done. That makes him inactive on most gameday rosters unless there is an injury.

They can't keep Holliday if he can't play WR because that leaves you with only viable 4 WR on the 45 man.
DL  
GIANTSr01 : 8/11/2014 12:52 pm : link
they are likely keeping at least 9 DL. Preseason/camp will determine if it's 4 DE/5 DT or 5 DE/4 DT, though I'd say the former is likely with the units being:

DT: Jenkins (can also play DE), Hankins, Patterson, Bromley, Kuhn
DE: JPP, Moore, Kiwi, Ayers

If they go 4 DT, the last spot is between Kuhn/Patterson. No idea who the 5th DE would be though.
RE: RE: He's too much of a special teams weapon ...  
GIANTSr01 : 8/11/2014 12:54 pm : link
In comment 11802821 santacruzom said:
Quote:
In comment 11802661 Manny in CA said:


Quote:


To cut.





I think that mindset in general hurts the Giants as presently constructed and coached. They're better off keeping the guys who play their real position well at the expense of a guy who might be a better special teamer. It's not like our ST unit is likely to be an asset anyway.

Wouldn't it be better to have, say, a stronger/deeper WR core and a shitty ST unit than a much weaker WR unit and only a slightly, sliiightly less shitty ST unit?


Not really, unless you think they are going to use 4 WR a significant # of times per game. There will likely be 5 WR active on gameday, and I'd rather have the 5th be a strong special teams contributor than a solid WR who's just riding the bench until/unless 2 guys ahead of him get injured. And even then, you still have your 6th (inactive) WR to fill in at the 3rd WR spot the following week.
ESPN has a projected roster for the Giants  
Jimmy Googs : 8/11/2014 12:54 pm : link
up right now. And Defensively their selections seem to make sense.

Offensive side of the roster still up for grabs at many positions imo.
ESPN Roster link...  
Jimmy Googs : 8/11/2014 12:56 pm : link

http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york-giants/post/_/id/37689/new-york-giants-projected-roster-3
RE: barens  
GIANTSr01 : 8/11/2014 12:59 pm : link
In comment 11802824 BillT said:
Quote:
No, but Jernigan may be the #6 WR when all is said and done. That makes him inactive on most gameday rosters unless there is an injury.

They can't keep Holliday if he can't play WR because that leaves you with only viable 4 WR on the 45 man.


4 healthy WR on the 45 man gives you 1 healthy sub for >97% of the plays.
10 personnel (4 WR) used - ( New Window )
that ESPN list looks fine except  
mattlawson : 8/11/2014 1:19 pm : link
for Herz... the guy cannot possible hold up at this level.

LINEBACKERS (6)
Jon Beason
Jameel McClain
Spencer Paysinger
Jacquian Williams
Mark Herzlich
Devon Kennard


If it came down to it, I'd rather have a PR like Holliday than a ST LBer
linebackers are core special teams players.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 8/11/2014 1:21 pm : link
They're at least as important as returners. Who's making the blocks?
RE: linebackers are core special teams players.  
mattlawson : 8/11/2014 1:22 pm : link
In comment 11802871 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
They're at least as important as returners. Who's making the blocks?


You feel better about our ST's with Herzlich over Holliday?
Herzlich vs Holliday is a moot point  
GIANTSr01 : 8/11/2014 1:26 pm : link
Unless you think we keep Herzlich as the 7th LB. We're not dropping to 5 LBs so that we can keep a 7th WR (with 2 likely inactive on gameday).

Especially since several of the top 5 LBs are constantly banged up (JW, Beason, etc.)
RE: RE: linebackers are core special teams players.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 8/11/2014 1:26 pm : link
In comment 11802875 mattlawson said:
Quote:
In comment 11802871 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


They're at least as important as returners. Who's making the blocks?



You feel better about our ST's with Herzlich over Holliday?


Both of those guys have glaring flaws. Herzlich can't play starting LB and his athleticism is questionable at best. Holliday can't hold on to the football. Those guys specifically, I'm only lukewarm about.
If that list includes Demps making it then I would  
beatrixkiddo : 8/11/2014 1:26 pm : link
Herz is very good on Specials I'll give him that. Holiday hasn't shown anything yet, and he does have security issues with the ball. At this point, I'd give the edge to Herz. Especially if Demps is here, and they want to give Beckham a shot at returning as well, which would follow suit with what Coughlin has done to rookie WR's in the past.
RE: ESPN Roster link...  
mfsd : 8/11/2014 1:28 pm : link
In comment 11802834 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:

http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york-giants/post/_/id/37689/new-york-giants-projected-roster-3


This story refers to the PK competition fizzling due to McManus's struggles hitting FGs in practice - where is he getting that from? I don't scour the papers every day, but from what I've read in the papers and here, McManus is making it quite a race against Josh Brown
He's not a WR, so that's a moot point  
JonC : 8/11/2014 1:31 pm : link
but he would be the "6th WR" on the roster as they'll want to keep five other WRs (4 known plus a developmental). If they want a potential 6th WR, then he's gone and Demps keeps return duties.

Perhaps one of the young safeties enables them to boot Demps, but that's looking unlikely especially when you factor in Demps' overall special teams abilities.

TD might be a luxury we can't fit on the roster.
The competition seems neck and neck.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 8/11/2014 1:31 pm : link
I'd think McManus would need to really be exceptional to unseat the accomplished veteran Brown.
RE: RE: He's the best returner on the team.  
Curtis in VA : 8/11/2014 1:32 pm : link
In comment 11802672 mattlawson said:
Quote:
In comment 11802648 Curtis in VA said:


Quote:


He'll probably make the team for the same reason Marcus Harris and Corey Washington probably won't.

Special teams.




If Harris and Washington don't make the team - I for one will be livid.


What have either Harris or Washington done that makes them so special?
RE: RE: barens  
BillT : 8/11/2014 1:34 pm : link
In comment 11802837 GIANTSr01 said:
Quote:
In comment 11802824 BillT said:


Quote:


No, but Jernigan may be the #6 WR when all is said and done. That makes him inactive on most gameday rosters unless there is an injury.

They can't keep Holliday if he can't play WR because that leaves you with only viable 4 WR on the 45 man.



4 healthy WR on the 45 man gives you 1 healthy sub for >97% of the plays. 10 personnel (4 WR) used - ( New Window )


4 WR on game day means you're one injury away from having to change your game plan. The Giants rarely if ever activate only 4 WR.
RE: RE: RE: barens  
GIANTSr01 : 8/11/2014 1:39 pm : link
In comment 11802911 BillT said:
Quote:


4 WR on game day means you're one injury away from having to change your game plan. The Giants rarely if ever activate only 4 WR.


No it doesn't. Assuming 3 WR is a significant part of your game plan, it means you're 2 injuries to WRs from having to change your game plan. Please show another position where you can suffer 2 injuries to your top 3 guys and not have to alter your game plan. CB is likely the only place where you have the active roster depth and even then you're likely changing your game plan to compensate for the weaker players.
TH might be a luxury we can't fit on the roster.  
JonC : 8/11/2014 1:43 pm : link
.
and the "5th WR"  
GIANTSr01 : 8/11/2014 1:43 pm : link
the Giants usually have active, is almost always a major special teams contributor. Even going back to Tyree who was an awful "WR" (helmet catch notwithstanding).

The exception to that might've been when Hixon was the 3rd/4th WR because he was the special teams "ace" for the WR group. Though I don't recall the rest of the WR-core from all his seasons.

The point is, at least one of the (likely) 5 active WRs will be a major special teams contributor. We know that player isn't JJ or Cruz. We (I) hope it's not Randle since he was average at best as PR last season. So that leaves Beckham, Holliday, or one of the other guys to grab that role (with Demps likely being the PR).
2013 WR Participation stats for the NYG per PFF  
pjcas18 : 8/11/2014 1:58 pm : link
Week 1 - 4, 7,8, 10, 11, 13, 15 same 5 WR's:
1. Cruz
2. Nicks
3. Murphy
4. Jernigan
5. Randle

Week 5 and 6, only 4; no Murphy:
Week 12 only 4; yes Murphy, no Nicks
Week 14 only 4; yes Murphy and Nicks, no Jernigan

Week 16 and 17 5 (Nicks, Murphy, Randle, Jernigan, Talley)

So, there you have it. It's a different offense this year so who knows what the active roster will look like, but for historical sake - last year at least- 5 WR's usually and at most, never 6 at the same time, but some times four. and the 6th WR played a total of 13 snaps all year on offense.



pj  
GIANTSr01 : 8/11/2014 2:01 pm : link
are those overall snaps or offensive snaps only?

And does it break it down by 4-WR sets?
If the Giants had to cut to 53 today...  
Big Blue Blogger : 8/11/2014 2:07 pm : link
...Parker would probably make it as the primary PR and as a backup slot receiver, largely by default. He would hold that job on a week-to-week basis, unless he does something to prove he should stay, and would be one muff away from the street. (Two muffs cost him his career in Tampa, where he was on much more solid ground.) Holliday might get a chance to replace him, or maybe Beckham will render the PR question moot by proving that he's the answer back there.

Parker has a much better WR resume than Holliday, and his ability to contribute on specials might even relegate Jernigan to the inactive list if shirts are scarce.

The thing is, the final cuts are still a few weeks away, and Parker is strictly JAG, so several guys could pass him on the depth chart at WR. As for PR, they can stick Randle back there to keep the seat warm for Beckham.
RE: pj  
pjcas18 : 8/11/2014 2:09 pm : link
In comment 11802977 GIANTSr01 said:
Quote:
are those overall snaps or offensive snaps only?

And does it break it down by 4-WR sets?


Total WR snaps when I said the 6th WR (Talley) played on 13 snaps. but, they didn't even have another WR play specials only.

But for the record, even for special teams, Julian Talley was only activated week 16 and 17. No #6 WR on the Giants was ever active last year until Cruz was IR'd.
And I don't see  
pjcas18 : 8/11/2014 2:12 pm : link
a stats for 4 WR sets.

I can check game by game and give the highest # of possible 4 WR sets.

4 example, week 1 the most 4 WR sets possible could have been 9 (out of 61 offensive plays), since the 4th WR only played 9 snaps, but I doubt it was 9.

Week 2, max 4WR sets could have been 6 (out of 79 offensive plays).

etc...but this is inexact and more "max" # then actual #
There  
PaulN : 8/11/2014 2:35 pm : link
Is no answer to this question right now. People saying no or yes are both wrong, the answer is that the decision is not in yet, I will say this, if he does not get on the field, then he has no chance to make the team, he was brought here with the hope of being a really good return man, but also there was hope he could fit into the offense a little. Right now he has done nothing and in the meantime, Harris and Washington and proving to be players.

But if he does return to the field, and he does show that he can be a weapon in the return game, everything can change, right now remember, Washington and harris are nothing more then pre season stars, we have seen many here that have done nothing. There are 20 of those to every Victor Cruz, which is the reason we are getting the usual over reactions and the definite no's. He still has time to turn it around, but time is running out.
Good question and maybe the answer is no  
nicky43 : 8/11/2014 2:49 pm : link
because I think TC will find a way to keep both Washington and Harris.
RE: I can't see them only keeping 4 DTs  
CGiants07 : 8/11/2014 3:03 pm : link
In comment 11802805 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
It's basically a cornerstone of this defense to be able to roll in and out a steady rotation of defensive linemen.


moore and ayers and kiwi can play inside as needed. 8 or 9 Dl leaning 9 but could be 8 if we staff osi #2 on PS
Eric was huge on Holliday early on  
Mike in Long Beach : 8/11/2014 5:12 pm : link
I'm curious if his opinion has changed... not saying it should have, but the opportunity for it to have changed is there with Washington and Harris excelling early on in pre-season.
RE: Eric was huge on Holliday early on  
GIANTSr01 : 8/11/2014 5:15 pm : link
In comment 11803353 Mike in Long Beach said:
Quote:
I'm curious if his opinion has changed... not saying it should have, but the opportunity for it to have changed is there with Washington and Harris excelling early on in pre-season.


I'm guessing Eric liked him for his special teams ability and nothing Washington/Harris have done to date would change that.
RE: RE: Eric was huge on Holliday early on  
Mike in Long Beach : 8/11/2014 5:19 pm : link
In comment 11803361 GIANTSr01 said:
Quote:
In comment 11803353 Mike in Long Beach said:


Quote:


I'm curious if his opinion has changed... not saying it should have, but the opportunity for it to have changed is there with Washington and Harris excelling early on in pre-season.



I'm guessing Eric liked him for his special teams ability and nothing Washington/Harris have done to date would change that.


Not necessarily true. Perhaps he had that opinion under the premise that there'd be no one in the 5 and 6 spots making significant contributions on offense anyway. One might argue the way these kids are playing could lead to more playing time.

Again, just one angle, but a plausible angle, none the less.
Holliday has a chance to be a special return guy  
Ten Ton Hammer : 8/11/2014 5:19 pm : link
But all it takes is one or two fumbles for TC to put him in the doghouse, and he's not shown any WR value. So..if he goes the David Wilson route, what are you using the roster spot for?
RE: linebackers are core special teams players.  
santacruzom : 8/11/2014 6:39 pm : link
In comment 11802871 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
They're at least as important as returners. Who's making the blocks?


On this team, that's a question with an easy answer: no one.
Here's what's changed about Holliday...  
Milton : 8/11/2014 6:44 pm : link
Since signing him, the Giants added Demps and OBJ.
Didnt the Packers  
CromartiesKid21 : 8/11/2014 9:22 pm : link
generally carry 7 WRs? I'd think MacAdoo values a large WR corp, not only for injury protection but to develop as well
Problem with Holliday right now  
Jupiter : 8/11/2014 11:27 pm : link
He might have the potential for 4-6 touchdowns as a returner but if he can't find a position and can't stay off the injured list, he will take up roster space and you can't be sure he won't give up just as many TDs by fumbling the ball away.

He needs to be playing now or he won't make the team. Since he doesn't seem to be any better as a WR than 6 other guys on the roster, he needs to show he can play the Wilson role at RB.
Holliday may be the next Devin Hester  
Jupiter : 8/11/2014 11:35 pm : link
Another man without a position but at least Hester didn't get injured very often.

The Giants' punt returner can't have hands of stone and Holliday needs to show that he doesn't either.

I think Parker may make it as punt returner and last WR unless they want Beckham to return punts.
Roster from ESPN  
DavidinBMNY : 8/12/2014 8:08 am : link
Pretty solid, I think Gaskins is ahead of Cox, and I could see them keeping 8 OL not 9 which would open a spot for a special teams player, plus Herman will be suspended 4 games which gives them that option and he's still PS eligible as well.
The suspensions of Hosley and Herman  
Jimmy Googs : 8/12/2014 8:19 am : link
could have been viewed as interesting "options" to Giants as backups for the roster in case guys get injured early on.

However, both have underwhelmed to say the least so right now its just looking like a bad option.
I just don't see the Giants using Beckham in ST  
Bramton1 : 8/14/2014 7:15 am : link
Nor can I see the Giants cutting Holliday. This perception that we can just plug another player in there is a good reason why we were ranked 26th in punt return average in 2013, 30th in 2012, 29th in 2011, and tied for last in 2010.
Bramton,  
GiantFilthy : 8/14/2014 8:18 am : link
Dottino mentioned the other day that coaches told him ODB will have a large role in kick/punt returns.
Don't be surprised if Demps wins the KR role  
Jimmy Googs : 8/14/2014 8:23 am : link
and Beckham wins the PR role.

Jernigan (or Cox if he makes team) and Randle can back them up at those spots, respectively.

To hear them tell it, Beckham's ability on ST is part of why they  
Ten Ton Hammer : 8/14/2014 8:23 am : link
drafted him.


If you're going to be afraid to put your best and most capable players on ST, then you don't really value ST production anyway.
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