Such a weird situation here. Rarely can I recall a scenario with our G-Men where there has been such a divide from fans and pundits alike. Usually if there is a debate on whether or not a player should make the roster, the player in question is either the last one on or the first one out.
In Holliday's case, those who think he has an opportunity to be a tremendous playmaker on special teams root for him to be a lock, and those who don't have him as far down as NINTH on our WR depth chart (behind the likes of Washington, Harris, Parker and Manningham).
Manningham's disappearing act this summer has helped Holliday's chances, but Holliday's hammy injury hasn't given him the opportunity to prove what he's capable of yet, either.
My gut feeling is it'll be Cruz, Randle, Jernigan, Beckham, Washington and Holliday... with Harris, Parker and Manningham getting the boot.. but that's just me. In, fact, I saw one roster projection on ESPN where Holliday wasn't even listed as cut! He was just disregarded entirely as a possibility.
I haven't really picked up on a BBI consensus. Is there one? And if so.. what the heck is it?
Special teams.
and no, i don't think we'll keep 3 QBs.
as just a punt returner I doubt it.
if it means keeping corey washington or holliday I'm not sure just punt returning is enough to warrant keeping Holliday.
Unless he's devin hester-like (who returned kicks, punts, played some WR (and DB until he failed there).
I do agree on your receiver list. The most amazing development could be this kid, Washington - if he keeps making plays ….
Special teams.
If Harris and Washington don't make the team - I for one will be livid.
i think Soup is headed for the practice squad, personally. Washington is just too much of a weapon to expose.
Holliday, Demps, McManus and Bowman could all be key contributors this season witht their roles on ST.
Punt returns are as much about ball security as anything else.
SO...Holliday better damn well prove he can secure the ball, if he wants to prove it's valuable to have a pure return man on the roster that doesn't contribute anywhere else on the field
The Giants will likely keep 6 WRs (with the DB depth, I see an extra DB over a 7th WR if there's an "extra" spot). With that in mind, here are the locks:
Cruz
Beckam
Randle
JJ
As of now, I'd give Harris the edge as the #5 WR and then the last spot comes down to special teams contributions, either as a gunner or returner. The longer Holliday sits out, the more he gives someone else a chance to "steal" that 6th spot. Lucky for him, I'm not sure anyone has really emerged as a PR.
ha, this is probably true.
Very true, and Coughlin showed in Randall's rookie year that he has no problem letting a first-year wideout take on that responsibility.
Great post by msfd too.. the fact that kick returns are being phased out are--almost literally--cutting a guy like Holliday's value in half.
i think Soup is headed for the practice squad, personally. Washington is just too much of a weapon to expose.
Harris does have the edge because he's a special teams gunner as well as a pretty good wideout. The real difference though is that Washington is really our only tall WR option.
Washington is a UDFA 2014, so teams just didn't know what he is yet and of course everyone is enticed by the mismatch of the tall WR - see Ramses Barden (not that Harris is short).
I think he's on the bubble, but the person I think is less likely to make the team is Charles James who looked terrible on his chance at PR.
Did I miss Holliday actually practicing/playing? How did he show he has no place in this offense?
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Holliday has shown he has no place in the offense and he won't make it a a PR only. Harris is a lock and probably pushing Jernigan for the #4 spot. Washington is probably more likely to make it than either Holliday or Manningham a this point.
Did I miss Holliday actually practicing/playing? How did he show he has no place in this offense?
He may not have actually shown it, but it's not like he's some youngster. He's 28 years old, 5' 5" on his tip toes and he has a career 2 receptions.
I wouldn't be surprised if he's given a chance and shows why he's never stuck anywhere with his blazing speed at WR.
He's electrifying as a KR, and maybe also as a punt returner, but if there are other options I think it woul dbe hard to justify his roster spot.
I like Harris, but your use of the word "lock" here is... liberal.. to say the least.
exactly. who else is going to scare an opposing defense in the red zone right now? Washington is the only guy we have - tight ends included - who can actually go up for a jump ball and come down with it regularly.
i would be utterly shocked if he doesn't make the team.
Lots of factors:
Washington and Harris performance make it easier to justify using Beckham on punt returns.
Bromley performance opens up possibility of only 4 DTs
Versitility of LBs and depth at safety mean we may only keep 5 (assuming Beason is 100%)
Health at CB (knock wood) means we may keep only 5. James and McBride in battle. James could go to PS.
Hosely's poor performance make him a lot less attractive as insurance.
who is closer to the #4 WR? Holliday?
Don't you have to ask yourself then how a guy who in 5 seasons caught 2 passes is somehow the #4 WR on a team expected to run some 4 WR sets?
It might happen that way, I obviously don't know everything, but I'd be shocked.
I think it's more likely Holliday makes the team as the KR/PR and never lines up at WR even once, than he suddenly becomes the 4th WR. And as I said previously I think it's only 50/50 he even makes the team.
if he can't get on the field he makes it an easy decision.
What's interesting is I have noticed that they have been using DE's as DT and DTas DE's in this pre-season (moving them all over the line, I know I saw Moore and Ayers play inside, and I saw Bromley play on the outside at least once). The DT position is pretty clear as to who they would keep if 5, I think there is good competition at DE, and it may be there that they look to add another body. My guess is JPP, Moore, Kiwi, Ayers, and Wynn if they go with 5 DE.
Got it, makes much more sense.
I think that mindset in general hurts the Giants as presently constructed and coached. They're better off keeping the guys who play their real position well at the expense of a guy who might be a better special teamer. It's not like our ST unit is likely to be an asset anyway.
Wouldn't it be better to have, say, a stronger/deeper WR core and a shitty ST unit than a much weaker WR unit and only a slightly, sliiightly less shitty ST unit?
I was thinking about this.. I would say 95%, but not 100%.
I think Mara sorta talked himself into a corner regarding Jernigan after last year's quality play. I of course know it's not Mara's final say, but I just can't see the coaching staff taking a flyer on Harris or Washington only to cut a guy the owner just a few months ago said is a quality player when given an opportunity.
But it's interesting. It would be very, very very surprising to me... but crazier shit has happened.
They can't keep Holliday if he can't play WR because that leaves you with only viable 4 WR on the 45 man.
DT: Jenkins (can also play DE), Hankins, Patterson, Bromley, Kuhn
DE: JPP, Moore, Kiwi, Ayers
If they go 4 DT, the last spot is between Kuhn/Patterson. No idea who the 5th DE would be though.
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To cut.
I think that mindset in general hurts the Giants as presently constructed and coached. They're better off keeping the guys who play their real position well at the expense of a guy who might be a better special teamer. It's not like our ST unit is likely to be an asset anyway.
Wouldn't it be better to have, say, a stronger/deeper WR core and a shitty ST unit than a much weaker WR unit and only a slightly, sliiightly less shitty ST unit?
Not really, unless you think they are going to use 4 WR a significant # of times per game. There will likely be 5 WR active on gameday, and I'd rather have the 5th be a strong special teams contributor than a solid WR who's just riding the bench until/unless 2 guys ahead of him get injured. And even then, you still have your 6th (inactive) WR to fill in at the 3rd WR spot the following week.
Offensive side of the roster still up for grabs at many positions imo.
http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york-giants/post/_/id/37689/new-york-giants-projected-roster-3
They can't keep Holliday if he can't play WR because that leaves you with only viable 4 WR on the 45 man.
4 healthy WR on the 45 man gives you 1 healthy sub for >97% of the plays.
10 personnel (4 WR) used - ( New Window )
LINEBACKERS (6)
Jon Beason
Jameel McClain
Spencer Paysinger
Jacquian Williams
Mark Herzlich
Devon Kennard
If it came down to it, I'd rather have a PR like Holliday than a ST LBer
You feel better about our ST's with Herzlich over Holliday?
Especially since several of the top 5 LBs are constantly banged up (JW, Beason, etc.)
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They're at least as important as returners. Who's making the blocks?
You feel better about our ST's with Herzlich over Holliday?
Both of those guys have glaring flaws. Herzlich can't play starting LB and his athleticism is questionable at best. Holliday can't hold on to the football. Those guys specifically, I'm only lukewarm about.
http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york-giants/post/_/id/37689/new-york-giants-projected-roster-3
This story refers to the PK competition fizzling due to McManus's struggles hitting FGs in practice - where is he getting that from? I don't scour the papers every day, but from what I've read in the papers and here, McManus is making it quite a race against Josh Brown
Perhaps one of the young safeties enables them to boot Demps, but that's looking unlikely especially when you factor in Demps' overall special teams abilities.
TD might be a luxury we can't fit on the roster.
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He'll probably make the team for the same reason Marcus Harris and Corey Washington probably won't.
Special teams.
If Harris and Washington don't make the team - I for one will be livid.
What have either Harris or Washington done that makes them so special?
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No, but Jernigan may be the #6 WR when all is said and done. That makes him inactive on most gameday rosters unless there is an injury.
They can't keep Holliday if he can't play WR because that leaves you with only viable 4 WR on the 45 man.
4 healthy WR on the 45 man gives you 1 healthy sub for >97% of the plays. 10 personnel (4 WR) used - ( New Window )
4 WR on game day means you're one injury away from having to change your game plan. The Giants rarely if ever activate only 4 WR.
4 WR on game day means you're one injury away from having to change your game plan. The Giants rarely if ever activate only 4 WR.
No it doesn't. Assuming 3 WR is a significant part of your game plan, it means you're 2 injuries to WRs from having to change your game plan. Please show another position where you can suffer 2 injuries to your top 3 guys and not have to alter your game plan. CB is likely the only place where you have the active roster depth and even then you're likely changing your game plan to compensate for the weaker players.
The exception to that might've been when Hixon was the 3rd/4th WR because he was the special teams "ace" for the WR group. Though I don't recall the rest of the WR-core from all his seasons.
The point is, at least one of the (likely) 5 active WRs will be a major special teams contributor. We know that player isn't JJ or Cruz. We (I) hope it's not Randle since he was average at best as PR last season. So that leaves Beckham, Holliday, or one of the other guys to grab that role (with Demps likely being the PR).
1. Cruz
2. Nicks
3. Murphy
4. Jernigan
5. Randle
Week 5 and 6, only 4; no Murphy:
Week 12 only 4; yes Murphy, no Nicks
Week 14 only 4; yes Murphy and Nicks, no Jernigan
Week 16 and 17 5 (Nicks, Murphy, Randle, Jernigan, Talley)
So, there you have it. It's a different offense this year so who knows what the active roster will look like, but for historical sake - last year at least- 5 WR's usually and at most, never 6 at the same time, but some times four. and the 6th WR played a total of 13 snaps all year on offense.
And does it break it down by 4-WR sets?
Parker has a much better WR resume than Holliday, and his ability to contribute on specials might even relegate Jernigan to the inactive list if shirts are scarce.
The thing is, the final cuts are still a few weeks away, and Parker is strictly JAG, so several guys could pass him on the depth chart at WR. As for PR, they can stick Randle back there to keep the seat warm for Beckham.
And does it break it down by 4-WR sets?
Total WR snaps when I said the 6th WR (Talley) played on 13 snaps. but, they didn't even have another WR play specials only.
But for the record, even for special teams, Julian Talley was only activated week 16 and 17. No #6 WR on the Giants was ever active last year until Cruz was IR'd.
I can check game by game and give the highest # of possible 4 WR sets.
4 example, week 1 the most 4 WR sets possible could have been 9 (out of 61 offensive plays), since the 4th WR only played 9 snaps, but I doubt it was 9.
Week 2, max 4WR sets could have been 6 (out of 79 offensive plays).
etc...but this is inexact and more "max" # then actual #
But if he does return to the field, and he does show that he can be a weapon in the return game, everything can change, right now remember, Washington and harris are nothing more then pre season stars, we have seen many here that have done nothing. There are 20 of those to every Victor Cruz, which is the reason we are getting the usual over reactions and the definite no's. He still has time to turn it around, but time is running out.
moore and ayers and kiwi can play inside as needed. 8 or 9 Dl leaning 9 but could be 8 if we staff osi #2 on PS
I'm guessing Eric liked him for his special teams ability and nothing Washington/Harris have done to date would change that.
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I'm curious if his opinion has changed... not saying it should have, but the opportunity for it to have changed is there with Washington and Harris excelling early on in pre-season.
I'm guessing Eric liked him for his special teams ability and nothing Washington/Harris have done to date would change that.
Not necessarily true. Perhaps he had that opinion under the premise that there'd be no one in the 5 and 6 spots making significant contributions on offense anyway. One might argue the way these kids are playing could lead to more playing time.
Again, just one angle, but a plausible angle, none the less.
On this team, that's a question with an easy answer: no one.
He needs to be playing now or he won't make the team. Since he doesn't seem to be any better as a WR than 6 other guys on the roster, he needs to show he can play the Wilson role at RB.
The Giants' punt returner can't have hands of stone and Holliday needs to show that he doesn't either.
I think Parker may make it as punt returner and last WR unless they want Beckham to return punts.
However, both have underwhelmed to say the least so right now its just looking like a bad option.
Jernigan (or Cox if he makes team) and Randle can back them up at those spots, respectively.
If you're going to be afraid to put your best and most capable players on ST, then you don't really value ST production anyway.