think JJ makes it by default. But this is probably his last year, although he did show some quickness last season. In any event, even if he does play well this year, he'll probably want to move on, since he'd be the #4 or #5 WR at best next season.
I feel like I'll have a hard time accepting it if Washington
the split is FO for Coaches against. We know the coaches ain't crazy about him because they barely played him for 2.5 years. Agree it would've been nice if Joe followed up but it's the Giants and Joe was mostly going thru the motions.
I agree that this was a good listen. I think it's interesting that we barely ever hear comments made about player development from Mara, and at the end of last season the one player who is singled out by name is Jernigan. I have to say that I really thought he broke out at the end of the season, finally showcasing skills that I've waited for since he was drafted. To see such little production out of him with this offense is disheartening, to say the least. From all accounts it is clear he hasn't shined in camp. It's kind of hard to see him being cut, but Dottino's perspective, that there is a split, is really easy to see.
My guess is that he sticks. I just think it really could hurt TC if he was to be cut and go somewhere and shine. Especially if he went to a division rival. JJ is the one player on this roster who I really thought was going to get an opportunity based on Mara's end of season comments.
I have a hard time believing that they'll cut Jernigan
if for no other reason than prior years. If a guy like Moss could hang around for as long as he did, I don't think they let JJ go just yet. Either one of the UDFA WRs gets the mystery IR call or we drop someone with a ton of fan outrage ala David Douglas last year.
for Jernigan I will be pissed. They both have proved more this spring than he has done over the last three years.
I maybe wrong, but I will be pissed. Of course, I thought Douglas was going to be good and he basically went nowhere after the Giants so what do I know?
Either Harris or Washington will most likely get stashed on IR
He reminded me of Percy Harvin with his COD coming out of college. Our Offense under Gilbride didn't really suit his style of play IMO. I think he will be much better under McAdoo. I could definitely see him excelling in a Randall Cobb type role. Dude finally got a legit shot at the end of last year and played pretty damn well.
Is a decent player. But in no way, is he a lock. I'm sorry. But I just don't see him, being that much better, than what he is now. I don't put him in that Sinorice Moss class. I just think Washington and Harris, has a higher ceiling.
except he played very well at the end of last year. In some of his first real extensive playing time, he played exceptional over those last three games.
he actually started to look like a guy worth having on the team and worth a fairly high pick. To cut him now would seem very odd, unless he isn't putting the work in...
When have these coaches been so wrong about a player
on offense that they came back and haunted us after we cut them? Many of them seem to fall off the face of the earth after they leave here. What's the FO drafting record the last 4-5 years? I'll take TC's player evaluation over the FO and John Mara any day.
makes the team he backs up Cruz. How did Smith & Cruz do in the old offense? Why keep 7 from what is obviously a poor overall group of receivers? Can Washington block? Can Harris be an effective rotational gunner? Parker & Talley look useful on specials. I think JJ is pretty much a one trick show. He shows ability in the slot. And that's it. If that's enough to make the team-fine, but who wants seven of these guys?
I'm glad to know that there is a split because it shows that more than
one person (or group) has input into player selection. Discussion is good. However, it is disturbing that this kind of info was made public. It should be kept in house. We are not the Jets and JJ should be respected.
Just to expand a bit on what Retro said:
I don't know how good Talley and the other young guys are compared to JJ. I just hope to God that they are ready for League play. Assuming that they are, let's put a value on JJ.
How valuable is JJ and what is the risk of cutting him?
Does he have any trade value? I don't think so.
Will another team snap him up if we cut him? Again, I don't think so. My reasons: He is a reserve WR at best. If another team needs a reserve WR, they will want (as do the Giants) a player who can contribute on special teams. A team that acquires JJ will soon find out that he is no help on special teams, and he will remain waiting in Neverland in the unlikely event that the Giants can't find a more promising WR and want him back.
At the risk of becoming monotonous and tedious, short receivers are not a good fit with Eli.
Who would back up Cruz in the slot if not Jernigan?
This is even a debate is telling. Very much another sonorice moss. Given every opportunity and been unable to do anything with it. He is not an outside receiver and the slot is occupied by pretty good player. Never did anything as a punt or kick returner. Unless the Giants have been hiding stuff during this preseason, it's seems pretty obvious to me.
RE: Who would back up Cruz in the slot if not Jernigan?
except he played very well at the end of last year. In some of his first real extensive playing time, he played exceptional over those last three games.
he actually started to look like a guy worth having on the team and worth a fairly high pick. To cut him now would seem very odd, unless he isn't putting the work in...
I wouldn't say exceptional, but he played ok against some of the weakest defenses in the NFL.
B) Like most of the station he could give two shits about the Giants. Francesca is the only one who has any clue about the team. And when Kim Jones is on.
I always thought WFAN was only good for the interviews, but it seems mike (as arrogant as he is) has become the only guy who can do them.
De-fault is Reese's for drafting such an under-sized (5'9" 185 lbs.) WR so high. IMO the Slot is his only position because at either WR position, how do you beat press coverage against big CBs when you only weigh 185 lbs.?
De-fault is Reese's for drafting such an under-sized (5'9" 185 lbs.) WR so high. IMO the Slot is his only position because at either WR position, how do you beat press coverage against big CBs when you only weigh 185 lbs.?
That's when you rely on your WR coach for that technique. Also, put him in motion. And have him run routes like slants, digs, and square ins, that allow him to use his speed and agility.
Let's see what happens when we actually game plan. Perhaps we run picks and have the other side clear out to give him move room to make a play.
Let's see how he does in this system when we actually sit and game plan.
I don't know that it's really fair to say he has been given a lot of opportunity. He didn't get much playing time before Cruz went down at the end of last season. I think when he got the time on the field he was a productive receiver in the slot. He's the only other viable slot guy we have and if Victor goes down I think we'll be glad to have him.
"I'm not sure why it took us three years to find out Jerrel Jernigan could play," he said while defending the Giants' draft record over the past few years. "We finally put him in a game and we saw that he could play. You have those instances as well."
When asked who is at fault for not putting players like Jernigan into the game, Mara had this:
"Sometimes you have to put younger players in a game and give them a chance to fail, or succeed." Mara said. "It's true not only of him but of other guys as well. It would have been nice if he had gotten in a little sooner. That's not my decision."
RE: I doubt they cut him if for no other reason it would make Mara
"I'm not sure why it took us three years to find out Jerrel Jernigan could play," he said while defending the Giants' draft record over the past few years. "We finally put him in a game and we saw that he could play. You have those instances as well."
When asked who is at fault for not putting players like Jernigan into the game, Mara had this:
"Sometimes you have to put younger players in a game and give them a chance to fail, or succeed." Mara said. "It's true not only of him but of other guys as well. It would have been nice if he had gotten in a little sooner. That's not my decision."
That quote still pisses me off. Completely disregards the fact that every other receiver we've drafted has found their way onto the field by year 2 in a substantial role. Why he comes to the conclusion that that Jernigan's production is on TC and not on Jernigan is mystifying.
RE: RE: I doubt they cut him if for no other reason it would make Mara
"I'm not sure why it took us three years to find out Jerrel Jernigan could play," he said while defending the Giants' draft record over the past few years. "We finally put him in a game and we saw that he could play. You have those instances as well."
When asked who is at fault for not putting players like Jernigan into the game, Mara had this:
"Sometimes you have to put younger players in a game and give them a chance to fail, or succeed." Mara said. "It's true not only of him but of other guys as well. It would have been nice if he had gotten in a little sooner. That's not my decision."
That quote still pisses me off. Completely disregards the fact that every other receiver we've drafted has found their way onto the field by year 2 in a substantial role. Why he comes to the conclusion that that Jernigan's production is on TC and not on Jernigan is mystifying.
I agree and it was the antithesis of the type of thing his father would have said.
I guess one could also view it as maybe there could be someone who wouldn't mind if JJ ended up cut to vindicate least years staff. Human emotions can be strong a force in decision making at times.
Think about this...we have heard during the preseason about all of the other guys. From Washington to Parker to Harris.
We have heard about Cruz adapting and feeling comfortable and Randle adjusting.
Have we heard anything about Jernigan doing well in practice to ensure his spot on the team at all?
Just because a made a few plays in a few meaningless games to end the season last year and the owner asking why he wasn't on the field more doesn't entitle him to a automatic roster spot.
More and more I'm coming to the conclusion that Jernigan is the one to blame for his situation and no one else. How about he standout in practice one of these times or on a consistent basis and force people to take notice?
I would have to check the archives from training camp, but I don't believe more than one story has written about his performance this summer.
a shot in this new system. If he fails he is gone next year anyways because I believe he is a free agent. At minimum, if something happens to Cruz, then what? I want to see how JJ can do this new system once we start game planning. Let's see how he does once we start adding WR screens or Bubble screens into the equation.
Steve et al: While no one will ever come out and say it in so many words my sources close to the Giants hinted that there has been a certain level of frustration building in the front office literally since before the 2011 SB that kind of came to a head in Mara's remarks. Jernigan was never a prototype WR but was drafted because at least in college he was a playmaker in the mold of Randall Cobb and TY Hilton who made plays when you got him the ball in different scenarios. With the Giants he was never going to be an X or Y receiver and was buried in the slot behind Victor. Fast forward to 2013 and Nicks couldn't or wouldn't play (my own guess he has never been close to 100% since the 2012 injury), while Myers at TE could barely get out of his own way. Translate Mara's comments and he really was asking, if we had this kid who looks like he could make some plays - and again prorate his numbers in those final three games, which may have been meaningless to the Giants but they sure as heck weren't to Detroit and Seattle, over a full 16 games schedule and its something like 95 catches for 1200 receiving yards - why the heck didn't we find a way to get the kid in the game so he could make some plays and take some of the heat off Cruz. And while I'm no fan of a guy like Belichek I can't believe that in the same situation that if he had two really good slot receivers and not much else that he'd be finding ways to get them in the game together.
In fact, if there is one thing I am hoping/expecting to see from McAdoo, as opposed to Coughlin's almost doctrinare approach, is that the new M.O. is going to be to find out what works, who can make plays, and build the offense around that rather than simply doing what 'we do what we do because that's what we do.'
Steve et al: While no one will ever come out and say it in so many words my sources close to the Giants hinted that there has been a certain level of frustration building in the front office literally since before the 2011 SB that kind of came to a head in Mara's remarks. Jernigan was never a prototype WR but was drafted because at least in college he was a playmaker in the mold of Randall Cobb and TY Hilton who made plays when you got him the ball in different scenarios. With the Giants he was never going to be an X or Y receiver and was buried in the slot behind Victor. Fast forward to 2013 and Nicks couldn't or wouldn't play (my own guess he has never been close to 100% since the 2012 injury), while Myers at TE could barely get out of his own way. Translate Mara's comments and he really was asking, if we had this kid who looks like he could make some plays - and again prorate his numbers in those final three games, which may have been meaningless to the Giants but they sure as heck weren't to Detroit and Seattle, over a full 16 games schedule and its something like 95 catches for 1200 receiving yards - why the heck didn't we find a way to get the kid in the game so he could make some plays and take some of the heat off Cruz. And while I'm no fan of a guy like Belichek I can't believe that in the same situation that if he had two really good slot receivers and not much else that he'd be finding ways to get them in the game together.
In fact, if there is one thing I am hoping/expecting to see from McAdoo, as opposed to Coughlin's almost doctrinare approach, is that the new M.O. is going to be to find out what works, who can make plays, and build the offense around that rather than simply doing what 'we do what we do because that's what we do.'
Colin, thanks for sharing your insight with us, it was interesting to read.
In fact, if there is one thing I am hoping/expecting to see from McAdoo, as opposed to Coughlin's almost doctrinare approach, is that the new M.O. is going to be to find out what works, who can make plays, and build the offense around that rather than simply doing what 'we do what we do because that's what we do.'
That's what I am hoping for and that's why I am curious to see how JJ would do in this offense. How many personnel packages do we utilize this season? Out of those, how many different combinations of guys can we use at X,Z,F, and H? I want JJ to make the team because I think he potentially could be a fit for this system.
But was he really all that effective in those last 3 games last year? The stats were ok, but he was targeted a bunch, and he didn't exactly remind me of a TY Hilton or Randall Cobb. People like to think that Eli can't throw the ball to shorter receivers, but from what I see, those receivers aren't very good(Hernigan and Sinorice Moss).
Plus, in regards to TY Hilton, I read that Reggie Wayne played a lot in the slot, and Hilton played more on the outside.
Steve et al: While no one will ever come out and say it in so many words my sources close to the Giants hinted that there has been a certain level of frustration building in the front office literally since before the 2011 SB that kind of came to a head in Mara's remarks. Jernigan was never a prototype WR but was drafted because at least in college he was a playmaker in the mold of Randall Cobb and TY Hilton who made plays when you got him the ball in different scenarios. With the Giants he was never going to be an X or Y receiver and was buried in the slot behind Victor. Fast forward to 2013 and Nicks couldn't or wouldn't play (my own guess he has never been close to 100% since the 2012 injury), while Myers at TE could barely get out of his own way. Translate Mara's comments and he really was asking, if we had this kid who looks like he could make some plays - and again prorate his numbers in those final three games, which may have been meaningless to the Giants but they sure as heck weren't to Detroit and Seattle, over a full 16 games schedule and its something like 95 catches for 1200 receiving yards - why the heck didn't we find a way to get the kid in the game so he could make some plays and take some of the heat off Cruz. And while I'm no fan of a guy like Belichek I can't believe that in the same situation that if he had two really good slot receivers and not much else that he'd be finding ways to get them in the game together.
In fact, if there is one thing I am hoping/expecting to see from McAdoo, as opposed to Coughlin's almost doctrinare approach, is that the new M.O. is going to be to find out what works, who can make plays, and build the offense around that rather than simply doing what 'we do what we do because that's what we do.'
This makes perfect sense and Is why I think Gilbride was let go in large part.
In the field of Military arts and sciences they teach you that a good commander makes an assesment of his available means, and then tailors his missions around those available means to make sure that he is both setting achievable goals and making best use of his assets ( Like keeping 2 FBs when both are excellent players as opposed to keep 4 TEs, the best of whom are mediocre.) Gilbride was a genius at playcalling far as I'm concerned but both he and TC literally word for word said "plug and play" when it came to using Giants personnel.It was my one issue with Gilbride and my biggest issue with TC. I understand the value of versatility, also as I understand the value of specialists.Sometimes the jack of all trades and master of none doesn't lead to best results.It's been great for us that Antrelle Rolle was able to play at CB for a couple of years cause we didn't have the personnel, but I think that as he plays just safety we will see his true worth better this year.
I had said in a long post last year that I thought the communication between TC and Reese was an issue, that the cook and the guy doing the grocery shopping weren't really communicating well as to what the guy doing the buying was expecting the meal to be. This kind of confirms that.
Jerry sees a buy, he makes it, but TC or whoever tries to force the square peg into the round hole.I hope they have taken some steps to clear up just what exactly they expect coaching to do with assets aquired, or that coaching "gets with the program" and takes it upon itself to maximize productivity from manpower as opposed to in all situations
trying to make manpower adapt to scheme needs, ill fit or not.
Plug and play is nice to have is some guys, but sometimes a specialist is nice to, and it's best to try and find a way to get the best out of them as opposed to neutering them just so they fit preconceived notions of what "should be".I hope MacAdoo uses the strengths of his players, and I hope the Giants keep the best 53, because frankly this team doesnt have championship written on it, but keeping the best players gives the best hope for the future to build on going forward.I've said a few times I think we are in year 2 of a 3 year rebuild( at best) and I think we should keep the most talented players around as opposed to letting some go because we think this year is the best year to "win now". One never writes a season off, and always looks to improve, but sometimes realistic goals are the way to go.Simply making the playoffs this year is a reasonable goal while building for the future.
One gets the feeling that JJ simply isn't a very good practice player.
If so, then how do you "reward" him with plays tailored to his skill set? I think it really ticked off TC that JJ has never learned to reliably field punts and kos too. Because that would suit his skills perfectly.
..
.
Dotino: "There's a split in the organization on Jernigan."
Joe B: "How about the TE position?"
Um, maybe ask who the split is between, and who believes what?
washington can be a te/wr...the te wont always
be blocking...they take short routes
punts his value goe out the door.
My guess is that he sticks. I just think it really could hurt TC if he was to be cut and go somewhere and shine. Especially if he went to a division rival. JJ is the one player on this roster who I really thought was going to get an opportunity based on Mara's end of season comments.
I maybe wrong, but I will be pissed. Of course, I thought Douglas was going to be good and he basically went nowhere after the Giants so what do I know?
It's definitely time for Harris and Washington to get their chances. Neither one is likely to make it to the NYG Practice Squad if cut.
he actually started to look like a guy worth having on the team and worth a fairly high pick. To cut him now would seem very odd, unless he isn't putting the work in...
80 yds receiving (with a 20 yd td)
90 yds receiving (with a 24 yd td)
57 yds rushing (with a 49 yd td)
not bad...
Washington only has 2 catches. It's just that both are for TDs.
Just to expand a bit on what Retro said:
I don't know how good Talley and the other young guys are compared to JJ. I just hope to God that they are ready for League play. Assuming that they are, let's put a value on JJ.
How valuable is JJ and what is the risk of cutting him?
Does he have any trade value? I don't think so.
Will another team snap him up if we cut him? Again, I don't think so. My reasons: He is a reserve WR at best. If another team needs a reserve WR, they will want (as do the Giants) a player who can contribute on special teams. A team that acquires JJ will soon find out that he is no help on special teams, and he will remain waiting in Neverland in the unlikely event that the Giants can't find a more promising WR and want him back.
At the risk of becoming monotonous and tedious, short receivers are not a good fit with Eli.
Marcus "Soup" Harris.
he actually started to look like a guy worth having on the team and worth a fairly high pick. To cut him now would seem very odd, unless he isn't putting the work in...
I wouldn't say exceptional, but he played ok against some of the weakest defenses in the NFL.
A) Benningo is a hack
B) Like most of the station he could give two shits about the Giants. Francesca is the only one who has any clue about the team. And when Kim Jones is on.
I always thought WFAN was only good for the interviews, but it seems mike (as arrogant as he is) has become the only guy who can do them.
Washington only has 2 catches. It's just that both are for TDs.
No, Washington is tied for the team lead with 4 catches, 2 for TDs, and he leads in yardage by a wide margin. Admittedly a low bar at this point.
#prisonerofthemoment
That's when you rely on your WR coach for that technique. Also, put him in motion. And have him run routes like slants, digs, and square ins, that allow him to use his speed and agility.
Let's see what happens when we actually game plan. Perhaps we run picks and have the other side clear out to give him move room to make a play.
Let's see how he does in this system when we actually sit and game plan.
When asked who is at fault for not putting players like Jernigan into the game, Mara had this:
"Sometimes you have to put younger players in a game and give them a chance to fail, or succeed." Mara said. "It's true not only of him but of other guys as well. It would have been nice if he had gotten in a little sooner. That's not my decision."
Quote:
"I'm not sure why it took us three years to find out Jerrel Jernigan could play," he said while defending the Giants' draft record over the past few years. "We finally put him in a game and we saw that he could play. You have those instances as well."
When asked who is at fault for not putting players like Jernigan into the game, Mara had this:
"Sometimes you have to put younger players in a game and give them a chance to fail, or succeed." Mara said. "It's true not only of him but of other guys as well. It would have been nice if he had gotten in a little sooner. That's not my decision."
That quote still pisses me off. Completely disregards the fact that every other receiver we've drafted has found their way onto the field by year 2 in a substantial role. Why he comes to the conclusion that that Jernigan's production is on TC and not on Jernigan is mystifying.
Quote:
Look like a fool.
Quote:
"I'm not sure why it took us three years to find out Jerrel Jernigan could play," he said while defending the Giants' draft record over the past few years. "We finally put him in a game and we saw that he could play. You have those instances as well."
When asked who is at fault for not putting players like Jernigan into the game, Mara had this:
"Sometimes you have to put younger players in a game and give them a chance to fail, or succeed." Mara said. "It's true not only of him but of other guys as well. It would have been nice if he had gotten in a little sooner. That's not my decision."
That quote still pisses me off. Completely disregards the fact that every other receiver we've drafted has found their way onto the field by year 2 in a substantial role. Why he comes to the conclusion that that Jernigan's production is on TC and not on Jernigan is mystifying.
I agree and it was the antithesis of the type of thing his father would have said.
I guess one could also view it as maybe there could be someone who wouldn't mind if JJ ended up cut to vindicate least years staff. Human emotions can be strong a force in decision making at times.
When?
Think about this...we have heard during the preseason about all of the other guys. From Washington to Parker to Harris.
We have heard about Cruz adapting and feeling comfortable and Randle adjusting.
Have we heard anything about Jernigan doing well in practice to ensure his spot on the team at all?
Just because a made a few plays in a few meaningless games to end the season last year and the owner asking why he wasn't on the field more doesn't entitle him to a automatic roster spot.
More and more I'm coming to the conclusion that Jernigan is the one to blame for his situation and no one else. How about he standout in practice one of these times or on a consistent basis and force people to take notice?
I would have to check the archives from training camp, but I don't believe more than one story has written about his performance this summer.
Why do you think that is?
Joey, I already raised that point, and that maybe that is where the spilt comes from.
In fact, if there is one thing I am hoping/expecting to see from McAdoo, as opposed to Coughlin's almost doctrinare approach, is that the new M.O. is going to be to find out what works, who can make plays, and build the offense around that rather than simply doing what 'we do what we do because that's what we do.'
In fact, if there is one thing I am hoping/expecting to see from McAdoo, as opposed to Coughlin's almost doctrinare approach, is that the new M.O. is going to be to find out what works, who can make plays, and build the offense around that rather than simply doing what 'we do what we do because that's what we do.'
Colin, thanks for sharing your insight with us, it was interesting to read.
That's what I am hoping for and that's why I am curious to see how JJ would do in this offense. How many personnel packages do we utilize this season? Out of those, how many different combinations of guys can we use at X,Z,F, and H? I want JJ to make the team because I think he potentially could be a fit for this system.
Plus, in regards to TY Hilton, I read that Reggie Wayne played a lot in the slot, and Hilton played more on the outside.
In fact, if there is one thing I am hoping/expecting to see from McAdoo, as opposed to Coughlin's almost doctrinare approach, is that the new M.O. is going to be to find out what works, who can make plays, and build the offense around that rather than simply doing what 'we do what we do because that's what we do.'
In the field of Military arts and sciences they teach you that a good commander makes an assesment of his available means, and then tailors his missions around those available means to make sure that he is both setting achievable goals and making best use of his assets ( Like keeping 2 FBs when both are excellent players as opposed to keep 4 TEs, the best of whom are mediocre.) Gilbride was a genius at playcalling far as I'm concerned but both he and TC literally word for word said "plug and play" when it came to using Giants personnel.It was my one issue with Gilbride and my biggest issue with TC. I understand the value of versatility, also as I understand the value of specialists.Sometimes the jack of all trades and master of none doesn't lead to best results.It's been great for us that Antrelle Rolle was able to play at CB for a couple of years cause we didn't have the personnel, but I think that as he plays just safety we will see his true worth better this year.
I had said in a long post last year that I thought the communication between TC and Reese was an issue, that the cook and the guy doing the grocery shopping weren't really communicating well as to what the guy doing the buying was expecting the meal to be. This kind of confirms that.
Jerry sees a buy, he makes it, but TC or whoever tries to force the square peg into the round hole.I hope they have taken some steps to clear up just what exactly they expect coaching to do with assets aquired, or that coaching "gets with the program" and takes it upon itself to maximize productivity from manpower as opposed to in all situations
trying to make manpower adapt to scheme needs, ill fit or not.
Plug and play is nice to have is some guys, but sometimes a specialist is nice to, and it's best to try and find a way to get the best out of them as opposed to neutering them just so they fit preconceived notions of what "should be".I hope MacAdoo uses the strengths of his players, and I hope the Giants keep the best 53, because frankly this team doesnt have championship written on it, but keeping the best players gives the best hope for the future to build on going forward.I've said a few times I think we are in year 2 of a 3 year rebuild( at best) and I think we should keep the most talented players around as opposed to letting some go because we think this year is the best year to "win now". One never writes a season off, and always looks to improve, but sometimes realistic goals are the way to go.Simply making the playoffs this year is a reasonable goal while building for the future.
B) While others want him shot and buried on the spot.