When the ones were in, he gave up a few big pressures on Eli. As the much heralded best FA guard available, I hope he can start performing better than this.
So maybe someone like Semipro Lineman can correct me if I'm wrong, but it just doesn't make sense to me to take a guy who's played on the right side his entire college and pro career and move him over to the left side. Maybe it's not that big a deal and all he needs is more time to adjust. I hope that's the case.
I expect it will take a ways into the season before the Oline can gel. I'm hoping they can survive the first quarter of the season while the ol gets it's act together.
On the very first play from scrimmage Schwartz fails to control his man who crosses his face and fills the hole for no gain. He wasn't alone in his failures, but he does look slow to me.
Jimmy: What would you consider to be "surviving" the 1st quarter ?
So maybe someone like Semipro Lineman can correct me if I'm wrong, but it just doesn't make sense to me to take a guy who's played on the right side his entire college and pro career and move him over to the left side. Maybe it's not that big a deal and all he needs is more time to adjust. I hope that's the case.
Certain guys are different. Some can adjust quickly and others not so much. I remember Diehl playing RT for the first time and getting abused. He didn't have much time to prepare for it and some could say it is because he went from G to T but I think it had more to do with going from the left side to the right side. Some are able to reverse everything and feel natural. A lot cannot and need a ton of work at it. I describe it as throwing a baseball or hitting from the opposite side of the plate. I can throw right great. Ask me to do it lefty and I look like a girl. I don't think it is as extreme as that but it can be when asking to take on NFL linemen and protecting your QB.
I have no idea why Schwartz was pegged in as the LG right away. Well, I understand leaving Snee where he was but that ended quickly. I guess because they had all the OTAs and mini camps with others practicing at RG that they didn't want to change things around. It could have been to have a vet on each side of the line knowing that Beatty was not returning right away. Beatty also struggled last year because he was trying to do too much. There were times when I saw him help the OG out by punching the DT and then attempting to get the edge rusher. If you can do that at the NFL level you should be in the HoF. So, maybe they just wanted to let Beatty concentrate on his assignment so he can return to the player we all hope he can be.
With that said, Schwartz is really worrying me. It is like he has never seen a stunt before. He gets totally off balance. He turns his shoulders. He is too upright and cannot adjust. This is all technical stuff but elementary mistakes. You can look at it two ways. One you can say he shouldn't be making these mistakes and that is bad news. You can also take the positive approach and say these are all very correctable things so more time at the position should alleviate these mistakes. I am in the first group right now. I expect more from a vet like him.
One thing I will say is that I think people are staring to realize that Guards are not really undervalued anymore. I really wanted Jonathan Cooper two years ago with Warmack second to him. We never had a shot at either but I never understood the "that is too high for a guard" talk. I will say this again, it is much harder to hide an OG in today's NFL than it is an OT. With an OT you can put a TE out there. You can have a back chip out of the backfield. You can line up a receiver tight to help chip. You can get creative. With an OG you basically say that you have your one on one matchup. Teams are constantly putting pressure in the A-gaps or at least the illusion of that where the C cannot help out the G. If you ask your back to help out a G then you are squeezing the pocket for the QB. I hope people start to realize how vital good G play is to an offense especially with a quick throwing offense because the way to kill that is right up the gut. It takes time for edge rushers to get to the QB. Look at how other teams negated our pass rush over the years with quick throws. If you take a three step drop you just have to get in the way of a DE. The pressure that kills a three step drop is inside penetration which puts even more emphasis on your OG.
LG RG thing either. Not as if we have a stud at RG. If the decision was made based on Snee, well that was stupid, nobody really thought he was going to come back strong.
But it seemed the entire OL wasn't prepared for Indy's stunts & blitzes .
Exactly! The last type of defense this offense needed to face at this point in time was a blitz-happy one like the Colts.
So, when it is alright for a offensive line to deal with stunts and pressures? What would be an acceptable time? The offense only really has one week left to figure this shit out. You cannot experiment in the regular season. Plenty of teams go through coaching changes and a lot of offense still put up points. Saying that because we have a new OC that we weren't ready for stunts and blitz pickups at this stage is not making anybody feel any better. I understand there is a learning curve but this is our third preseason game where others have only had two. We have one more dress rehearsal before the offense goes out for like a series in the fifth game and then we are ready for the regular season. At this stage of the game I understand not having a full understanding of the offense yet but I don't expect technical mistakes. That is not a good sign.
this year's success or failure hinges greatly on the OL. It's a group that will need to gel quickly, but clearly they have yet to do so. There's just too much inconsistency. Runs get stuffed for 1-2 yard gains, Eli gets constantly pressured or sacked and we find ourselves in way too many third and longs....and we know what happens then. I think the players have the potential, they just need more time working together.
they looked like a pee-wee football team out there. So many dumb mistakes. Besides the offense there were missed tackles. The DL lost their leverage on Luck numerous times. Kiwi getting pushed around. Demps fumbles a kick return. We had another KR get brought out of the end zone to like the 10 to 15 yard line. Pathetic.
Going to take 2-3 years and the Giants are going to have to start drafting better.
You have a brand new OL that needs time to gel. It took, what, 6 games for Spags defense to get it.
New offensive scheme. Eli may or May not be done. There are so many new players it looks almost like a different team. ODB has missed most of the preseason.
We are in sad shape. Reece is going to need to make a trade or two to get some good o-line talent on the team because Beatty still sucks, Brewer is rediculous, as is Jerry, Schwartz had a bad game and the rest of the O-Line is not much better. Even Pugh was getting beat.
I'm very dissapointed that Reece did not fix this line. The world knew it was broke and he gambled again as he did last year and did not bring in the starters we need.
I hate to say it but this is going to be very ugly unless some creative moves are made to bring in some players.
a guy to play him at a position he's not played before at any decent level -- especially when his best position is also a need on your team.
Then again, I also never have understood Walton's signing either. Denver was trying to push him out before he even got injured (though people forget that, much like they pretend NO only benched Brown because of one play or that Jerry is quality just because he started games for Miami), but now he's years out from even playing in a game... and you hand him a starting spot, to anchor your decayed OL?
It's not, nor ever been, an issue of the team investing in the OL; people try to claim the Giants haven't and that's simply not true. It's that they're very likely just not very good at doing the investing, which is far worse.
One thing I have learned is you can't tell when the whole line looks
like crap. You can have one guys playing well but to us "armchair lineman" he still looks lousy. This is because we don't understand the schemes. I remember last year we thought Pugh sucked, but week after week he was rated highly. What was happening was his role was to hit the DL guy to the inside and then go back to the outside. The scheme said the RG picked him up after. Well to us it looked like Pugh was getting beat inside.
The OL works as a unit. If 3 guys suck and 2 are playing well, it will likely look like all 5 suck.
He understandably started out the season slowly (even by the Giants' own self scouting, based on what was reported) and, by mid-year, was their best OL by a decent bit.
From my memory, most people were on board with that take.
without a question is a lot better than last year. The problem is these guys have never played with one another.
For instance, we all know Pugh can play a lot better than what he did last night...
The biggest is key is the center position. I 100% believe in walton and believe he has what it takes, but lets remember this guy hasn't played a game in 2 years. He seems to be a little rusty getting everyone together on the line and making the right plays.
especially against defensive peronnel you have not gone against before or dont see that often. Many times the defense comes out with frenetic pace and energy and you see that early pressure, and as the game wears on the offensive line settles in. Most of the pressure seemed to come from blitzers/blitz pickup, not excusable but also different from last year when they were consistently getting physically manhandled by their dline counterparts up front. This unit needs live repetitions together, as many as they can get.
switching sides is tough , just imagine you bat righty your
is playing next to a guy (or in the case of the interior spots, guys) that they have not taken any regular season snaps with before. The tackles may remain but in reality it's a total line rebuild, it will take time for them to gel and trust each other and in the interim it's going to be ugly getting there, especially on stunts and blitzes.
After the first two series, the offensive line gave Eli lots of time. As usual, he either can't throw straight, the WR's don't get open or they drop the ball.
There are many teams from high school on up that play strong side/weak side vs. left and right with their offensive lineman, meaning as a guard you line up left or right of the center depending on where the strong side of your formation is called from play to play.
There may be a comfort zone type thing as a righty or lefty, but nothing on the level of a right handed hitter being asked to bat lefty. It would not explain a precipitous drop in play.
RE: I thought Beatty looked largey ok last night FWIW
Got called for a hold, but in general, I thought he looked decent for his first game back.
That was my thought as well last night. I was thinking he'd struggle more with being not in condition and all. That was promising. Just hope he continues to progress now
Not to say I don't also wonder why Schwartz is not at RG
TC on o-line: "Just because five guys trot out there doesn't mean that's the starting unit."
Goes with Schwartz as well, how do we know he will not be starting at RG once season begins? They seem to be feeling things out on the line to see who's best suited where and what not..and who can slide in a position and play well in case of someone going down with injury.
One of the main problems in adjusting to the run is that this is a big (and not quick) line. And much of the play-calling is for zone-type blocking, trapping, blocking for screens and pulling. This line does not excel in the above. It is mostly a stoutly-built group who should be able to move the pile. This group looks better than last year's because it is. However, their abilities do not correspond with the blocking schemes implemented in the West Coast offense by McAdoo.
It is not McAdoo's fault by any means. Again, there is a disconnect between the GM and his coach (and coaching staff); i.e., JR signs and drafts players who do not optimally fit in this system.
Another example is the drafting of Beckham. While Beckham may become a stud on a team like the 49ers or Saints, he is not the type of WR that Eli best connects with (unless Beckham played as a slot WR and flourished like Cruz). Eli had his most prolific years throwing over-the-outside-shoulder towards the sidelines to Burress. The Giants have been looking for that tall WR since 2008 to replace Burress (Barden was originally supposed to be that man); however, they have failed to find such player which will help Eli (maybe Washington will be the man) connect on 3rd downs. JR should have been looking for someone like Benjamin in the draft to satisfy the tall WR need. Nevertheless, this is one key example of the disconnect between the FO and the coach/coaching staff. JR fails to provide what is most needed to fit the present system.
Eli was at his most prolific and best throwing to Steve Smith, Hakeem
i know patience doesn't come easily in a forum like this. but this is a work in progress. the OL schemes aren't simply complicated with some playing new positions but EVERY BODY on this line is playing with a comparative stranger next to them. we all know most of these guys can play. pugh had a bad game but i'm not worried about him. yes, schwartz has been over matched the last two games but i don't know what kinds of blocking schemes they're having him do. the guy, on the other hand, can indeed play.
and, frankly, i was delighted with beatty the other night. the holding call was a little iffy and he absolutely held his own in protection. my big hot button is who is the backfield is going to be tasked with picking up blitzes. noone did particularly well on saturday - though with all the criticism harris got last week, i saw at least one play where he stopped a linebacker cold.
also remember the offense is running a set of pre-established plays; they don't even like to throw in audibles at the line. the OC wants to see where the problems are as much as what works.
next, much has been made that the entire offense only has next week's game to get it right.
wrong
if you think for one moment that coughlin will hesitate to play the 1s longer than a quarter - especially if he thinks they're struggling - you don't know the man. i would expect much better play against the jets because the line probably knows this (and doesn't want to get beaten up anymore than they have to).
this leads to another repetitive point about preseason games: as much as they may line up with foam in their mouths, most of the 1s play these games not to get hurt. remember strahan essentially boycotting camp and preseason a few years ago because he felt he could do more damage to himself than good? he had many sympathizers on the team (and around the league). he just succeeded more than others simply because he had more leverage.
many of the 2s also play not to get hurt. the 3s (where all the action has been in the first three games) are playing for their careers and to be noticed. i find it encouraging that the giants 3s have considerably more fire in the belly than others.
i don't even take the inactivity of the front 4 ( or 5?) not getting sacks as a fatally troubling sign - these guys are trying to protect themselves in meaningless contests.
so let's not be changing rosters or riding anyone out of town on a rail just yet.
Certain guys are different. Some can adjust quickly and others not so much. I remember Diehl playing RT for the first time and getting abused. He didn't have much time to prepare for it and some could say it is because he went from G to T but I think it had more to do with going from the left side to the right side. Some are able to reverse everything and feel natural. A lot cannot and need a ton of work at it. I describe it as throwing a baseball or hitting from the opposite side of the plate. I can throw right great. Ask me to do it lefty and I look like a girl. I don't think it is as extreme as that but it can be when asking to take on NFL linemen and protecting your QB.
I have no idea why Schwartz was pegged in as the LG right away. Well, I understand leaving Snee where he was but that ended quickly. I guess because they had all the OTAs and mini camps with others practicing at RG that they didn't want to change things around. It could have been to have a vet on each side of the line knowing that Beatty was not returning right away. Beatty also struggled last year because he was trying to do too much. There were times when I saw him help the OG out by punching the DT and then attempting to get the edge rusher. If you can do that at the NFL level you should be in the HoF. So, maybe they just wanted to let Beatty concentrate on his assignment so he can return to the player we all hope he can be.
With that said, Schwartz is really worrying me. It is like he has never seen a stunt before. He gets totally off balance. He turns his shoulders. He is too upright and cannot adjust. This is all technical stuff but elementary mistakes. You can look at it two ways. One you can say he shouldn't be making these mistakes and that is bad news. You can also take the positive approach and say these are all very correctable things so more time at the position should alleviate these mistakes. I am in the first group right now. I expect more from a vet like him.
One thing I will say is that I think people are staring to realize that Guards are not really undervalued anymore. I really wanted Jonathan Cooper two years ago with Warmack second to him. We never had a shot at either but I never understood the "that is too high for a guard" talk. I will say this again, it is much harder to hide an OG in today's NFL than it is an OT. With an OT you can put a TE out there. You can have a back chip out of the backfield. You can line up a receiver tight to help chip. You can get creative. With an OG you basically say that you have your one on one matchup. Teams are constantly putting pressure in the A-gaps or at least the illusion of that where the C cannot help out the G. If you ask your back to help out a G then you are squeezing the pocket for the QB. I hope people start to realize how vital good G play is to an offense especially with a quick throwing offense because the way to kill that is right up the gut. It takes time for edge rushers to get to the QB. Look at how other teams negated our pass rush over the years with quick throws. If you take a three step drop you just have to get in the way of a DE. The pressure that kills a three step drop is inside penetration which puts even more emphasis on your OG.
Man, we really need this unit to come together.
Exactly! The last type of defense this offense needed to face at this point in time was a blitz-happy one like the Colts.
Quote:
But it seemed the entire OL wasn't prepared for Indy's stunts & blitzes .
Exactly! The last type of defense this offense needed to face at this point in time was a blitz-happy one like the Colts.
So, when it is alright for a offensive line to deal with stunts and pressures? What would be an acceptable time? The offense only really has one week left to figure this shit out. You cannot experiment in the regular season. Plenty of teams go through coaching changes and a lot of offense still put up points. Saying that because we have a new OC that we weren't ready for stunts and blitz pickups at this stage is not making anybody feel any better. I understand there is a learning curve but this is our third preseason game where others have only had two. We have one more dress rehearsal before the offense goes out for like a series in the fifth game and then we are ready for the regular season. At this stage of the game I understand not having a full understanding of the offense yet but I don't expect technical mistakes. That is not a good sign.
I don't think I've ever disagreed with anything more than this. I love that dog.
You have a brand new OL that needs time to gel. It took, what, 6 games for Spags defense to get it.
New offensive scheme. Eli may or May not be done. There are so many new players it looks almost like a different team. ODB has missed most of the preseason.
If they're 8-8 this year I'll be happy.
I'm very dissapointed that Reece did not fix this line. The world knew it was broke and he gambled again as he did last year and did not bring in the starters we need.
I hate to say it but this is going to be very ugly unless some creative moves are made to bring in some players.
Then again, I also never have understood Walton's signing either. Denver was trying to push him out before he even got injured (though people forget that, much like they pretend NO only benched Brown because of one play or that Jerry is quality just because he started games for Miami), but now he's years out from even playing in a game... and you hand him a starting spot, to anchor your decayed OL?
It's not, nor ever been, an issue of the team investing in the OL; people try to claim the Giants haven't and that's simply not true. It's that they're very likely just not very good at doing the investing, which is far worse.
The OL works as a unit. If 3 guys suck and 2 are playing well, it will likely look like all 5 suck.
From my memory, most people were on board with that take.
For instance, we all know Pugh can play a lot better than what he did last night...
The biggest is key is the center position. I 100% believe in walton and believe he has what it takes, but lets remember this guy hasn't played a game in 2 years. He seems to be a little rusty getting everyone together on the line and making the right plays.
Likewise for JPP and Moore at LE and RE respectively.
There may be a comfort zone type thing as a righty or lefty, but nothing on the level of a right handed hitter being asked to bat lefty. It would not explain a precipitous drop in play.
That was my thought as well last night. I was thinking he'd struggle more with being not in condition and all. That was promising. Just hope he continues to progress now
I may not have perfect confidence in the coaching staff, but this one has had to been considered already.
Lets focus on the other 45 things wrong with this offense...
Goes with Schwartz as well, how do we know he will not be starting at RG once season begins? They seem to be feeling things out on the line to see who's best suited where and what not..and who can slide in a position and play well in case of someone going down with injury.
It is not McAdoo's fault by any means. Again, there is a disconnect between the GM and his coach (and coaching staff); i.e., JR signs and drafts players who do not optimally fit in this system.
Another example is the drafting of Beckham. While Beckham may become a stud on a team like the 49ers or Saints, he is not the type of WR that Eli best connects with (unless Beckham played as a slot WR and flourished like Cruz). Eli had his most prolific years throwing over-the-outside-shoulder towards the sidelines to Burress. The Giants have been looking for that tall WR since 2008 to replace Burress (Barden was originally supposed to be that man); however, they have failed to find such player which will help Eli (maybe Washington will be the man) connect on 3rd downs. JR should have been looking for someone like Benjamin in the draft to satisfy the tall WR need. Nevertheless, this is one key example of the disconnect between the FO and the coach/coaching staff. JR fails to provide what is most needed to fit the present system.
Not Plaxico Burress.
and, frankly, i was delighted with beatty the other night. the holding call was a little iffy and he absolutely held his own in protection. my big hot button is who is the backfield is going to be tasked with picking up blitzes. noone did particularly well on saturday - though with all the criticism harris got last week, i saw at least one play where he stopped a linebacker cold.
also remember the offense is running a set of pre-established plays; they don't even like to throw in audibles at the line. the OC wants to see where the problems are as much as what works.
next, much has been made that the entire offense only has next week's game to get it right.
wrong
if you think for one moment that coughlin will hesitate to play the 1s longer than a quarter - especially if he thinks they're struggling - you don't know the man. i would expect much better play against the jets because the line probably knows this (and doesn't want to get beaten up anymore than they have to).
this leads to another repetitive point about preseason games: as much as they may line up with foam in their mouths, most of the 1s play these games not to get hurt. remember strahan essentially boycotting camp and preseason a few years ago because he felt he could do more damage to himself than good? he had many sympathizers on the team (and around the league). he just succeeded more than others simply because he had more leverage.
many of the 2s also play not to get hurt. the 3s (where all the action has been in the first three games) are playing for their careers and to be noticed. i find it encouraging that the giants 3s have considerably more fire in the belly than others.
i don't even take the inactivity of the front 4 ( or 5?) not getting sacks as a fatally troubling sign - these guys are trying to protect themselves in meaningless contests.
so let's not be changing rosters or riding anyone out of town on a rail just yet.