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Offense: Patience and "not wanting to show to much" ?

kinard : 8/17/2014 11:03 am
First two quarters were awful. But you can't expect this offense to click right away, right? I'm hoping the offense gets humming in October sometime.

I wonder how much McAdoo holds back not wanting to show his hand for the regular season. There has to be some of that right?

Offensive line sucked and it's hard to play without a viable
tight end presence.

At least they found a back up QB last night. Easily the best we've seen from Nassib. Loved the tough 4th and 16 throw.
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RE: Larry  
Chris in Philly : 8/17/2014 11:30 am : link
In comment 11811120 AnishPatel said:
Quote:
In comment 11811116 Larry in Pencilvania said:


Quote:


What about the eagles last year? They looked good out of the gate.



I am talking now with this new system. It's basically a clean slate for everyone and now it's an adjustment period. High expectations are going to leave a lot of people mad.


The Eagles had a clean slate after years in the same offense too.
Or the  
dontboobigblue : 8/17/2014 11:31 am : link
"Elicopter" over the middle, wildly thrown too high that should have been intercepted by the safety
One play that stood out to me  
mofti : 8/17/2014 11:32 am : link
was the play action roll out bomb to cruz... if cruz didn't fumble that it would have been a really nice play by Eli and Cruz. I'm expecting to see a lot more of that when the regular season comes.
Really discouraging  
Jupiter : 8/17/2014 11:32 am : link
I am a bigger optimist than 90% of the BBI fans, but this is really discouraging. I could expect a lot of offensive penalties (especially delay of game, false starts, holding, etc.) but the offense isn't even functioning well enough to be penalized.

I think it was reasonable to expect that the offense would get a little better each week as the new offense was installed but this offense is going backward. And I'm beginning to think that this offense isn't going to look any different than the Gilbride offense, except maybe play a little faster.

What happened to the short passes to the flat and the swing passes to the backs? All I see is checkdowms to delays and draw plays on 3rd and long. Real creative stuff!
RE: Larry  
snumber6 : 8/17/2014 11:37 am : link
In comment 11811120 AnishPatel said:
Quote:
In comment 11811116 Larry in Pencilvania said:


Quote:


What about the eagles last year? They looked good out of the gate.



I am talking now with this new system. It's basically a clean slate for everyone and now it's an adjustment period. High expectations are going to leave a lot of people mad.


An offense should learn the new system a helluva lot faster than a defense learns to defend it ...
The Eagles put in a new system last year and were fast out of the gate and it took time for defenses to adjust ...

Our "so called" new system seems so easy to defend either because players don't know what to do yet ... or can't do what is expected ... or McAdoo simply doesn't know how to design plays that gives a defense problems ...

Even Eli - one of the smartest QBs around - appears to be dumb as a brick as to what is going on ... he had some of that last year with a porous OL and WRs not making the right reads ... but the new offense was supposed to take care of that ...

I've always said that Eli gives us a chance to win every game ... with these surroundings (offensive holes, no TEs, no play execution, etc ...) I'm not so sure about that anymore ...
Jon,  
AnishPatel : 8/17/2014 11:37 am : link
In comment 11811130 Jon from PA said:
Quote:

Anish, are you still doing your breakdowns of the play calls? Do yo see any difference in the types of plays being called with the 2s and 3s as opposed to the 1's?


It's seems to be the same stuff. I didn't record the game. But outside zone, toss, and running concepts like that. I think what can be seen is the talent vs talent with the 2s and 3s. Perhaps our talent is doing well then.

That can explain the late game comebacks. Our first unit is the real group that still needs to click.
what is it with the oline?  
Simms11 : 8/17/2014 11:40 am : link
can we honestly make an assessment without coaches analysis?! Is it fundamentals, scheme, combination thereof, chemistry?

Everyone wants to say they suck, but these guys do have skill . They haven't put it all together yet. The oline has been thrown together and everyone just expects it to function without flaw right away. Not going to happen for a little bit.

Someone mentioned the Eagles playing a new offense well out of the gate, but you have to also consider that their oline was already in tact and their O also didn't really get going until Foles became the guy.

Have patience, it will take time. Progress is inching along right now.
its preseason  
Bradshaw #44 : 8/17/2014 11:41 am : link
we see this almost every year.
Chris  
AnishPatel : 8/17/2014 11:41 am : link
In comment 11811133 Chris in Philly said:
Quote:
In comment 11811120 AnishPatel said:


Quote:


In comment 11811116 Larry in Pencilvania said:


Quote:


What about the eagles last year? They looked good out of the gate.



I am talking now with this new system. It's basically a clean slate for everyone and now it's an adjustment period. High expectations are going to leave a lot of people mad.



The Eagles had a clean slate after years in the same offense too.


Okay, but are we running the same offense as them? Do we have the same exact players as them when it comes to individuals learning something new? Do you have brothers or sisters? Do you learn at the same rate as them, or are you all individuals?

Same shit, except this is a new offense, that's different and you're teaching to different humans.
where did the hurry up go?  
ZogZerg : 8/17/2014 11:49 am : link
I didn't see it at all.
That's all the beat writers talked about in practice.
....  
AnishPatel : 8/17/2014 11:50 am : link

Quote:
An offense should learn the new system a helluva lot faster than a defense learns to defend it ...
The Eagles put in a new system last year and were fast out of the gate and it took time for defenses to adjust ...

Our "so called" new system seems so easy to defend either because players don't know what to do yet ... or can't do what is expected ... or McAdoo simply doesn't know how to design plays that gives a defense problems ...

Even Eli - one of the smartest QBs around - appears to be dumb as a brick as to what is going on ... he had some of that last year with a porous OL and WRs not making the right reads ... but the new offense was supposed to take care of that ...

I've always said that Eli gives us a chance to win every game ... with these surroundings (offensive holes, no TEs, no play execution, etc ...) I'm not so sure about that anymore ...



Again, are we learning the same system as them? No, in fact Chip Kelly is considered a mad scientist of sorts and has OC experience. Does Ben M.? I wanted someone like Norv Turner who has proven success in the league. Instead we went with a fucking newbie who has never called a full season.

Don't you think there will be an adjustment process? You people want to point out Philly but it's apples and oranges. A. it's not the same fucking system, B. You have different players learning the system, and C. Our OC has ZERO Oc experience.

Add in talent issues because Reese and Ross have fucked up our drafts and you get our present situation.

Eli is learning a system after a decade. Now everything changes not to mention our fucking change with position coaches. So new ways of doing things and getting coached up as well.

Do you people not expect a fucking learning curve? But hey, all the coaches are on a 2 year deal as is Eli and RR. So if this thing goes to shit we may have a lot more changes to this team, which I am sure may make some of our fan base happy.
In addition to the Eagles last year  
BlueManFu : 8/17/2014 12:06 pm : link
The Colts had a new offense installed (Pep Hamilton) and so did the Chargers (Mike McCoy) and both teams were able to pick it up and start quickly and successfully on O. It's not an excuse if this shitshow goes on into the regular season.
RE: ....  
snumber6 : 8/17/2014 12:12 pm : link

An offense should learn the new system a helluva lot faster than a defense learns to defend it ...


In watching football for nearly 60 years, I've found that the above statement is true most all the time ... I stand by it ...

Look recently just on the other side of the locker room for examples ...


Eric Mangini even as a first year defensive minded head coach elevated Chad Pennington to stardom with a new offense ...

Mark Sanchez came out like a super star ... also with a first year defensive minded head coach putting in a new offense ...

Neither Ryan nor Mangini will ever be called offensive geniuses ... but simply by putting in a new offense they were successful with it until DCs caught up ... even with run of the mill QBs ...

I'll give it time ... but defenses sure seem to be able to know how to shut down our new offense quite easily ...
This is contrary to what I've noticed for many years ...


Zoe  
mikeygiants : 8/17/2014 12:14 pm : link
that's what I want to know. I keep waiting to see this new offense and wondered last night if there is somewhat of a power struggle between McAdoo and Coughlin. I understand wanting to shelter some plays, but I don't see a drastic change to our O. New offense or old offense I'm worried that our 15 million dollar quarterback has difficulty throwing a spiral.

Based on last night if they run the hurry up they may set the NFL record for the most and fastest 3 and outs in a game.
Some people see what they want to see...  
okiegiant : 8/17/2014 12:15 pm : link
and no matter what logic or insight you use to try and explain things will work.

All teams are different and all systems are different and all talent levels are different. If you can't see this, or you refuse to see this(some posters)it becomes very hard to discuss.

At this point we have a few posters(not people asking actual why questions)just doing the loud noises thing and wanting to complain. If you need to vent by all means do so. The Giants have lots of problems you can vent about, but don't try to turn your vent in to a fact.
Right now the offense is "Hurry up and suck"  
JerseyCityJoe : 8/17/2014 12:22 pm : link
The whole offense looks confused including Eli. If they can't get it together fast we are looking a shit show reminiscent of the 2-14 days of the 70's.

Of course all teams...  
Chris in Philly : 8/17/2014 12:23 pm : link
are different. Nobody is saying otherwise. But if you are going to use the "everyone's learning a new system" excuse for the putrid performances, you have to recognize the fact that new systems are getting out in all the time and those teams often look better than we have show on in the very early going. If you want to say "well the OL still sucks and they really should have done more for it over the last few years", then that is a reasonable explanation. But sorry, it's a new system doesn't cut it. They aren't completing absolutely basic passes. I don't care if I'm smarter than my siblings (which I am, natch), and I don't are that BM doesn't have coordinator experience, and I don't care if Chip Kelly is a mad genius. We have a lot of money invested in the offense and they are playing like crap. If this continues into the regular season, it's another wasted year.
That right there is the key.  
AnishPatel : 8/17/2014 12:24 pm : link
Quote:
All teams are different and all systems are different and all talent levels are different. If you can't see this, or you refuse to see this(some posters)it becomes very hard to discuss.


I think people forget these are human beings. Well this team has certain humans who understood the system, so why can't our guys? Are they the same fucking people? Or.. maybe, just maybe are there humans different than our humans? All people are different and so it may take one team longer to digest information than others.

So and So kid is a good baseball player, so why cant our kid be. That's what it basically sounds like when reading some members posts. As if all people are the same and learn at the same fucking rate.

And I'm not sure...  
Chris in Philly : 8/17/2014 12:28 pm : link
why Anish seems to be taking comments about the offensive struggles so personally.
The Giants offense will be fine once . . . .  
TC : 8/17/2014 12:31 pm : link
the league agrees to only require them to play 3rd string offenses.

They looked worse than in the 1st pre season game. Eli was brutal.

Something is seriously wrong.
I would also take a guess and say for every team who seems...  
okiegiant : 8/17/2014 12:32 pm : link
to hit the ground running you can probably find several more who struggle. Certainly if you consider some teams seem to change systems every season with little to no success.

Chris, I understand your point and my initial comment was certainly not aimed at you but more so at the general I just want to yell crowd.
And I wont speak for Anish...  
okiegiant : 8/17/2014 12:40 pm : link
but for me I am just weary of the we suck crowd who honestly don't seem to understand how difficult this game is.

They are always on BBI and will always be on BBI and only you as a fan can decide how you want to feel and react but it does get old when you try and discuss the game and the loud noises people just keep repeating the same.things...sometimes for years.


One heck of a poor sentence structure on the last comment...  
okiegiant : 8/17/2014 12:42 pm : link
Again I apologize...I am on my phone killing time and its difficult to post off this thing!
RE: anish  
eclipz928 : 8/17/2014 1:00 pm : link
In comment 11811116 Larry in Pencilvania said:
Quote:
What about the eagles last year? They looked good out of the gate.


The Eagles have one of the best offensive lines in the NFL, and maybe the best RB in the NFL . . . . the Giants aren't close to having either of those things. Makes a big difference.
"Not wanting to show too much"...  
Jimmy Googs : 8/17/2014 1:07 pm : link
is the understatement of the preseason. 50+ yards of offense in the first half is a ridiculous.

The First Team units should have stayed back in Jersey and practiced or better yet prayed.

They are doing an awesome job of....  
Emlen'sGremlins : 8/17/2014 1:36 pm : link
....Not Showing Too Much!
eclipz928,  
AnishPatel : 8/17/2014 1:49 pm : link
In comment 11811231 eclipz928 said:
Quote:




The Eagles have one of the best offensive lines in the NFL, and maybe the best RB in the NFL . . . . the Giants aren't close to having either of those things. Makes a big difference.


I am not sure fans are thinking further than, " Well they can do it, why can't we?"

Simplistic, well if they can go out and play, we can't we do the same. Well, for starters we lack the talent they do. We also have a first time OC, while Chip Kelly is considering innovative. Also, every human is different, perhaps they can learn that system better than we can learn ours. Not to mention we have different coaches too that need to teach their way of doing things.

It takes time, which by nature fans don't want to hear.
The Eagles  
St. Jimmy : 8/17/2014 1:57 pm : link
were 1-3 out of the gate. Followed by 3-3, followed 3-5 after scoring 3 points on offense in two weeks. After that they got on a roll vs. the Raiders, Redskins, and Packers without Aaron Rodgers. I remember Eagle fans saying Chip Kelly would be the next coach at USC. I think the game opening against a shitty Redskins team with an offense that looked a lot like the Giants current offense is making people think they started better than they did.
Chris,  
AnishPatel : 8/17/2014 2:10 pm : link
In comment 11811191 Chris in Philly said:
Quote:
why Anish seems to be taking comments about the offensive struggles so personally.


I am not. I do follow that side a lot more closely then the defense since I coached that side of the ball. Other that that, no not taking it personally. I just know about these issues because I coached when we had to install a new system. So I am aware of the issues that come up with install.
my expectations are not high out of the gate  
Larry in Pencilvania : 8/17/2014 2:15 pm : link
I figured it would be rough at first, but not like last night. That's been no consistency or even a semblance of a sustained drive against a first team defense. I just remember the hoopla for chip Kelly and his offense la asst year by the media.

Anish I know you have been championing a new system for awhile so I yield to yourexperience as well. IMHO this process will be a marathon as they learn the offense and improve the talent
Larry,  
AnishPatel : 8/17/2014 2:20 pm : link
In comment 11811315 Larry in Pencilvania said:
Quote:
I figured it would be rough at first, but not like last night. That's been no consistency or even a semblance of a sustained drive against a first team defense. I just remember the hoopla for chip Kelly and his offense la asst year by the media.

Anish I know you have been championing a new system for awhile so I yield to yourexperience as well. IMHO this process will be a marathon as they learn the offense and improve the talent


They are still installing and practicing concepts. Also, this team is not filled with talent. Bad drafting by Ross and Reese has hurt us. New coaches as well have to learn and get integrated and teach these guys.

I am not worried about it. If by mid season we suck, and our offense looks the same then yeah I will have a big problem with it.

However, it's only the 3rd preseason game which just finished. Once Eli and BM can talk about things they like and want installed once we game plan vs shit that should be nixed because we can't execute it, I expect things to be somewhat better.

I guess it comes down to I am not worried about it as everyone else. It's still early in the process.
Reese's horrible drafts from 2008 to 2012 costing us  
SGMen : 8/17/2014 2:21 pm : link
He is the main reason we suck right now. He and the scouting staff. Eli is NOT the problem. TC is NOT the problem.

Reese has done well in terms of keeping the right guys and with UFA signings for the most part. But the draft is where you build your team and he has flopped mightily there.

I do like our 2013 and 2014 drafts so far though it is early.

We will have a great gauge of how good or bad this team may be when we face the Jets this week. This is the "big" pre-season game where the real work goes to the first team. If we execute well and move the ball many on BBI will ease up. If we have another egg this place will go NUTS but they should go nuts on Reese the most.

I believe we'll be at least "OK" versus the Jets and then build as the season goes. This assumes we stay healthy so cohesiveness builds.

Lastly, losing Snee, who I thought would bounce back for one more year given his surgeries and off-season time to heal, hurt this OL. He was solid when healthy and would have provided a veteran presence. Such is life.
RE: One play that stood out to me  
mattlawson : 8/17/2014 2:28 pm : link
In comment 11811136 mofti said:
Quote:
was the play action roll out bomb to cruz... if cruz didn't fumble that it would have been a really nice play by Eli and Cruz. I'm expecting to see a lot more of that when the regular season comes.



The problem is that's all we've gotten the last 2 season -- and how'd that work out for us? YOU CANNOT BE ALL ABOUT THE DEEP BALL.

Run game, short passes, uptempo, methodical offense. Where the fuck is it? 2011 was not about hitting Cruz deep. It was short passes that we're taken for big runs. Let's get back to that please.

I have to think the 3rd string is running what Eli is supposed to be doing.
The not wanting to show too much  
RetroJint : 8/17/2014 2:40 pm : link
is a widely held, totally moronic obsession in the NFL. The stealth works for precisely one game-the opener. Then you're on film. It seems to me that it would be much better for a team like the Giants to use game conditions to try out as much of their offense as they possibly can.

However I do want to reinterate a comment that I made in another thread; Tom Coughlin said they game-planned protections and audibles for some of the pressures that the Colts used. They were not doing dummy calls where they appeared to audible and just ran the called play, as Dottino stated earlier in the week Coughlin was very disappointed last night and I'm sure his quarterback was a huge part of it. Giants o-line appears to have marginally better personnel this season. Just how much so is a hot topic of debate.

As for the Eagle commentary let's play Our Guy vs Their Guy. Combine the two offensive units . How many Giants would start. Victor & maybe Pugh. There is your answer. Talent rules in this league .
thank you RetroJint  
ColHowPepper : 8/17/2014 3:22 pm : link
for some common sense.

The same goes for Anish who questioned the decision to go with an unproven, inexperienced OC to fix the "broken offense". BM may be and become fantastic--let's hope he is and does--but it strains logic and comprehension why the braintrust would, in executing a strategy to fix a broken offense, embark on a completely unproven scheme and OC to implement it.

The question goes back to the debate whether the offense was broken (plenty of evidence for that) because of the scheme/OC or the personnel. Of course Reese's position had to be, and he convinced Mara, that it was not the personnel (and his follow-on comment on JJ) so Reese remains "the right man for the job".

Yet the personnel also changed, how much for the better is the raging question of this pre-season: Even Reese can't undo five (2008 and counting) lousy drafts in the space of a year or two, barely helped along by largely middling FA signings over recent years, Beason being the exception.
Reese, nice guy  
Sec 103 : 8/17/2014 3:35 pm : link
But not competent... Sorry
The development of the new offensive scheme  
Bill in TN : 8/17/2014 3:45 pm : link
is arguably the biggest concern now. Conventional wisdom on this site maintains that nothing successful will be forthcoming until the OL gels and learns to play together.

So here is what I cannot understand - our coaching staff's proclivity for playing 1/2 to 3/4 of the exhibition games with 2nd and 3rd stringers - guys that won't even sniff the final 53. Shouldn't they be giving the starting OL the most time they can to work out the kinks?

And I'm tired of the coach speak that "we need healthy competition". BS. By the time of training camp, you should know who 40-45 of the final 53 are going to be (barring injuries). You keep 8 or 9 linemen, competition comes from the perceived backups pushing the perceived starters. Not from camp fodder scrubs. Play the starters as much as you can.
Very strange performance by the first team  
PEEJ : 8/17/2014 4:16 pm : link
Looks like they're trying something new each week.

Week #1 - work the uptempo short passing game (Eli = 6/7)

Week #2 - work the running game (only 2 pass attempts)

Week #3 - work the deep pass (3 shots downfield)

Reserves come in and start playing a different set of plays.

Method in the madness ?
RE: They are very clever...  
Great White Ghost : 8/17/2014 5:44 pm : link
In comment 11811132 Chris in Philly said:
Quote:
not letting the competition see us complete a forward pass...
Ha! That's priceless.
We may very well get out of the gate quickly - who knows  
PatersonPlank : 8/17/2014 5:53 pm : link
the gate is still 2 weeks away from opening! We still have 2 preseason games to go so relax. Now is exactly the time to get things figured out.
"The guy said with regular watering  
Jimmy Googs : 8/17/2014 6:01 pm : link
it should bloom in about 6 months, so--"

"Oh, we'll look forward to that, Greg."
RE: They are very clever...  
baadbill : 8/17/2014 6:05 pm : link
In comment 11811132 Chris in Philly said:
Quote:
not letting the competition see us complete a forward pass...


Just reading this thread for the first time and Chris' post made me spit my drink through my nose.
RE: Very strange performance by the first team  
Great White Ghost : 8/17/2014 6:07 pm : link
In comment 11811458 PEEJ said:
Quote:
Looks like they're trying something new each week.

Week #1 - work the uptempo short passing game (Eli = 6/7)

Week #2 - work the running game (only 2 pass attempts)

Week #3 - work the deep pass (3 shots downfield)

Reserves come in and start playing a different set of plays.

Method in the madness ?
Kinda thought I saw the same thing.In the end they are seeing what works and what doesn't. they will continue to tweak it now that they have some game feedback.

Another thing is this;the Giants have maintained all along that this is not "MacAdoos offense". after all, any way you cut it he was a position coach, and in point of fact did not have an offense. It is a Giants offense, and if the coaches are to be taken at their word, it is an offense in development. I think that's the case. Sure, they have plays to be installed, but this is not the refined offense of Kevin Gilbride. It's a rough draft that's getting input from several sources, and there are things being tried and crossed off the list.on top of that the starting QB isn't sharp, as is his wont in preseason games and the offensive line isn't a finished work either. No TEs to speak of, and the starting RBs, while they can run the ball, aren't nearly as good at catchign it or pass pro. Some of these issues will iron themselves out as the season goes on. others won't.

Point is, while we do have real problems that will probably keep us from being a championship team,it is reasonable to expect that we will be playing our best ball later in the season as the lines come together, the QB finds his footing and the offense becomes more refined.I don't think September is gonna be pretty, though.
RE: In addition to the Eagles last year  
BMac : 8/17/2014 6:46 pm : link
In comment 11811168 BlueManFu said:
Quote:
The Colts had a new offense installed (Pep Hamilton) and so did the Chargers (Mike McCoy) and both teams were able to pick it up and start quickly and successfully on O. It's not an excuse if this shitshow goes on into the regular season.


Gee. Are we in the regular season?
The OL play is making it difficult to execute.  
arcarsenal : 8/17/2014 6:54 pm : link
Eli also hasn't been sharp.

It's a mix of a few things. We've also played a grand total of 3 preseason games. It's been much worse than many of us would have expected thus far, but..

I think Friday night will be telling. If it looks brutally bad again with the 1's seeing a full half or so, I'll get a little more concerned. We need to see some sort of improvement.
...  
SanFranGiantsFan : 8/17/2014 7:07 pm : link
This offense has looked completely awful. Eli's completed one-ONE-pass in the last two games! They better show more come Friday.
We are now  
old man : 8/17/2014 7:15 pm : link
just joining the rest of the NFL world in a west-coast style O, with a bunch of new players, roster wide,lacking at least 3 of the necessary parts to that type O(#1 WR, #1TE, and scheme able OL); Ds do have an advantage over us.
There will be pain in watching this team for some part of this year. Patience is important.
Put down the remote, pick up a cannoli.

As an aside, for those hoping for OL help,the Sam Baker injury at Atlanta may raise the cost in the Alex Boone sweepstakes.
old man,  
AnishPatel : 8/17/2014 7:52 pm : link
Quote:
Put down the remote, pick up a cannoli.


More like pick up Xanex or Ativan for anxiety.
Old man...  
Chris in Philly : 8/17/2014 7:53 pm : link
Take a look at my life, I'm a lot like you were.
Yes, the Offense looks truly terrible but two possible reasons:  
Bobby Epps : 8/18/2014 12:31 am : link
First, there's constant shuffling on the OL: Westburg playing, LG, RG and C;; Brewer playing LT and RT; and Herman playing C and Reynolds playing LG. Absolutely no continuity especially when Beatty is not playing, then 4/5 ths of the OL is brand-new. Hard to have an efficient OL under those circumstances.

Second, although Robinson flashed last night, the TEs as a group are pathetic and with Jernigan playing WR due to Beckham's hamstring, the WR duo of Jernigan and Randle are average to below-average IMO. IMO Jernigan can only play Slot because of his size and although this is Randle's 3d year with the Giants, Eli and he still do not seem to be on the same page. Not the best three-some WRs and TEs to throw to and when Andre Williams is in the game, no reliable RB to throw to.
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