Does acquiring Boone seem more important now?

No one knows what we have right now. Best to keep future assets unless this guy just fits us perfectly. Not sure that's the case. Last year's tackles are back, but the guards and center are new guys just learning to play together.

Another new guy, who comes at a cost doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

in addition to blocking, he could throw, run the ball and catch passes. And maybe play specials too.

Then I am all in...

and having the Giants in deep trouble. I'm glad you stated your feelings so definitively Eric, now. I can save time by not reading them. I like going into each game with the mindset the Giants will win. As a fan I don't need to be
given a reality check. I look forward to Sunday's for enjoyment and diversion.

I doubt they'd trade a starting OL. They'll pay him.

on the 2013 draft and this year's. They might end up getting quite a bit of mileage from Pugh, Hankins, Moore and Taylor (although Taylor has a nasty foot injury now). 2014 might similarly end up fine: Beckham, Westburg, Bromley, and Williams could end up solid. Shoot, it's already looking like Williams might end up being a steal.

That being said, earlier drafts have left lots of holes. Personally, I don't believe the LB situation is not going to be our glaring issue. Obviously it's he OL was neglected far too long. Everything starts in the trenches on offense, and that is something Reese seems to have forgotten.

Now Reese and Ross both need to be fired? It's the preseason, relax! The line needs to gel, it doesn't happen overnight. It's a new O, that doesn't all come together overnight. This is what the preseason is for. How about we wait to see the finished season product before making stupid, reactionary comments?

from being a contending team, it doesn't make a ton of sense to spend the draft pick and hand the player a big extension right now, especially if he's an OG. He'll be looking for OT money, and it doesn't make a lot of sense for this team as currently constructed.

Bring back Ernie!
That seems to be what the people want.

the logic behind the picks is weird too.....sintim, wilson over glenn, hosley, etc.

trading up for guys like kehl and barden. demonstrates some incompetence imo, which is scary. u at least want the picks to make sense

His 1998-2002 drafts were every bit as bad as what Reese has been doing.

Yet together they built teams that won two super bowls.

I'm thinking that the Giants have drafted to league average or better and that fans just have impossible expectations with regard to success rate.

Marc Ross sucks at his job. Since 1998, the Giants' drafts have largely stunk except for 2003-07. What was different then? Jerry Reese was their scouting director then. Accorsi's drafts were awful with Sunderland and very good with Reese, and Reese's drafts have been terrible with Ross.

had a ton to do with winning the '07 SB, as well as Reese's first draft class. EA's drafting leading up to it was probably in the area of average, at best. EA's drafts were typically not impressive. Thinking otherwise would be largely revisionist, imo.

Eli, Cruz, and JPP getting white hot, and the remaining core, had a lot to do with winning the '11 SB, in an era where there's a much smaller difference between the #6 seed and #1 seed.

They got some excellent players from the 2003-07 drafts: Eli (much as I dislike Ernie, that one was all him), Osi, Snee, Webster, Jacobs, Bradshaw. The 2007 team still got contributions from a couple of old GY picks too (Strahan and Toomer).

This is just guessing on my part, but I think building that great OL with unheralded players like Seubert, O'Hara and Diehl went to Reese's head and he assumed he could just keep retooling the OL with low draft picks and unwanted FAs. That hasn't worked at all. The one high pick they spent on an offensive lineman was Beatty and he hasn't really worked out, and none of their mid-low round OLs have been worth a damn.

You hit the key piece, Reese was the scouting director during those years. EA clearly had an affect, but his role was the top-down architect, and his UFA hits were really effective.

I suppose it could be said the drafting since 2008 would have fared better on the whole had we not lost so many to career-ending injuries, but it seems clear our drafting has declined since Reese was promoted and Ross took his place in the scouting dept.

In comment 11812040 Eric from BBI said:

Quote:

of the bad drafting is just weird stuff... i.e., the downfall of Nicks... the car accident to Jones... Wilson's neck injury... Phillips' knee injury... etc. But there are a TON of blown picks in the mid rounds. That happens to all teams, but five in a row?

Reese has a penchant for picking WRs high. That's his biggest problem in the draft IMO. Since most aren't on the team anymore thats an issue. Wasted resources if only one or two hit or you have to let them go because you can't pay one position to $$$ to all this players.

All Rd 3 or Higher in 8 years

Steve Smith,Mario Manningham, Nicks, Jernigan, Randell, Barden, Beckum, ODB Jr.

That's one a year in the top three rounds. Who is left? Rabdel, JJ, and this years first rounder OBJR

JJ shouldn't make it out of camp. Randle still seems a mystery still despite some stats last year.

Wasted resources since higher picks get more opportunities and can get more time and pad their stats a bits which may actually inflate their value. They also generally want a higher value contract round two.

Add to that he's only drafted 3 OL in the top 3 rounds in that 8 years. PLEASE do not tell me we didn't need to build depth and competition there until the last two years. He had to take Pugh and Richberg. Not bad picks but in 8 years the difference is obvious here he puts his resources. Beatty is a major source of contention here so its also not like he's a guy one can point to as a great pick between what he costs and his 2013 year.

Pugh looked pretty good last year but how can anyone assume he's a lock to be a long term starter in the NFL. Shit JPP is a question mark to be resigned and he looked all world early on, not just solid.

Reese has pissed away a lot of picks and compounded that with trying to plug holes with Baas, Boothe, and now Schwartz and Walton.. Boothe was solid, Baas was a mess w his injuries. They are now putting Schwartz in a position he's never played and Walton is coming of of a long spell of inactivity.

Anyone who can look at Reese's drafts and his shit record for the OL and keep making excuses is viewing on to a past that's not quite in evidence.

We all hope this OL comes together but its not looking promising. We may not have one guy on the whole Roster who is top 10 at his position. Maybe Pugh? Sorry but its still too soon to just hand him that.

Reese owns this but his big fans her just repeat the unfounded mantra that he was the GM who built the rosters of the two SB teams. Yes he was a big part of the process but so were a lot of other people, namely Accorsi who was actually the GM when most of the team was brought in.

And no, Reese couldn't have predicted that Wilson would turn out to have stenosis, but that change would have made a big difference.

I was told he would've been pick had there not been questions regarding his work ethic, NYG really liked his game.

In comment 11811898 AcidTest said:

Quote:

Too expensive. One player isn't going to fix the OL. It may just need more time to coalesce, and develop some chemistry. Although one does hope that happens before Eli ends up in the hospital. We also have no TEs, questionable blocking by some RBs, and questions at WR.

Agree (about expensive), disagree about one player fixing the line.....Boone would be a huge upgrade and get us one step closer to having a bonafide line.

is letting Linval Joseph walk. Reese hitting on a DT, a very important position to this team, was a big deal and would have helped our roster considerably.

This off-season, everyone was conceding the fact that Joseph would get paid more than he was worth in the open market. Fine. Well, the Giants knew they had a guy who could play probably mid-way through the 2011 regular season. So the proper move is to lock him up at a somewhat discounted rate prior to the end of last season.

It's not the decision not to re-sign Joseph in the 2014 off-season that irks me. It's the lack of foresight to re-sign him earlier that irks me. And some BBIers are going to post about how tight the cap was in 2013. (So we could pay $20 milliion + to that all-pro interior OL we were fielding last season.) True enough, but that's why good GMs plan several seasons in advance. That's one of Reese's flaws in his team-building.

Do we have the Peter Principle in action here, promoting someone to their level of incompetence? Am I being too harsh?

I'd agree there appears to be a lack of foresight or a disconnect in many decisions under Reese.

They also do tend to draft from a need-heavy, reactionary decision position too often. As others have indicated, WR is an indicator given how many they've picked and not retained. While I'd agree you need a quicker ROI on draft picks these days, you also need to select and develop core pieces regardless of position.

Guys
Eric from BBI : Admin : 8/17/2014 11:36 pm : link : reply
the 2014 New York Giants are not one player away from turning this around.

Reese has fucked up 5 drafts.

We need a lot of help.


Funny, when I say this, Klaatu and company, jump all over my name, rather than what I write.....maybe I should change my moniker to Eric II from BBI.....or maybe Eric could adopt me? I know Klaatu won't....

decisions that led up to Joseph signing with the Vikes actually bothers me a whole lot more than say the selection of Clint Sintim in the 2nd round. There's a lot of uncertainty in draft evaluation, as we all know. Sintim was by no means an outlandish selection where he was taken. If it was an error, it's the type of error that many quality GMs make all the time on draft day.

The Joseph decisionmaking is much closer to the realm of incompetence. Being an NFL GM is about getting hold of and analyzing information. You have a young DT on your team who you know can play and who's a hard-worker (a big deal for guys that size). That's a key informational advantage that other teams don't have. Reese threw that information away.

JonC - Glad you at least somewhat concur.

In comment 11812345 cosmicj said:

Quote:

is letting Linval Joseph walk. Reese hitting on a DT, a very important position to this team, was a big deal and would have helped our roster considerably. This off-season, everyone was conceding the fact that Joseph would get paid more than he was worth in the open market. Fine. Well, the Giants knew they had a guy who could play probably mid-way through the 2011 regular season. So the proper move is to lock him up at a somewhat discounted rate prior to the end of last season. It's not the decision not to re-sign Joseph in the 2014 off-season that irks me. It's the lack of foresight to re-sign him earlier that irks me. And some BBIers are going to post about how tight the cap was in 2013. (So we could pay $20 milliion + to that all-pro interior OL we were fielding last season.) True enough, but that's why good GMs plan several seasons in advance. That's one of Reese's flaws in his team-building. Do we have the Peter Principle in action here, promoting someone to their level of incompetence? Am I being too harsh?

You're making an assumption that gets repeated pretty often, that somehow the Giants were a lock to extend a player while still under their rookie contract and just failed to do so. We don't know what conversations they had while he was still under contract, nor what his expectations were or whether he even wanted to explore a contract extension without testing the open market.

Joseph got a very rich contract. Hankins flashed a bit last year, and I don't think it was unfair, given the number of holes on this team, to consider Joseph a luxury we couldn't afford going forward. If Hankins can't at least partially fill that role, then I'll blame Reese, but I don't think I can fault him for not extending Joseph.

I actually like Hankins much more than LJ as a potential stud DT, so the backfill will eventually work in our favor, imo. In terms of philosophy on the whole, we're in agreement there's some living defect(s).

At this point he should be overruled,the Giants can't afford to give up any picks.

Besides,he's probably too busy working on his Escape From Timex paper mache dummy to make any trades.

I was big on wanting LJ kept, but cannot fault Reese to fill all of the other holes if he felt Defensive Tackle was going to be adequately covered. We will see if Hankins & rotation proves him right.

With several poor drafts in the rear view mirror and losing a few really good football players to injuries that they will never really come back from, Reese has to do a lot of chess games to field a competitive team.

And he is struggling to do so...

Unless it's someone like Calvin Johnson. You shouldn't take a RB in the first round unless we're talking Adrian Peterson. Had Reese followed those rules we'd have Glenn (Lavonte David, but that would have been too much to hope for) and Martin on the OL.

The drafting team has a big advantage in re-signing their young players. I'm linking to an informative ESPN write-up on the Vikings contract.

Hypothetically, let's assume a modest discount which Joseph would grant to have his long-term contract finalized with the Giants before 2013 was complete, and the Giants extend him for a bit less than the Vikings upfront cap hit. That's very affordable. You're not breaking the bank there.

You're right that we never will have the details of the negotiations, but absent evidence that Joseph was asking for much more than his eventual market value, I am marking this down as a big-time fail by Reese.

Jon C - Happy to hear that about Haskins. But I think we could have used both guys.
Vikings: Analyzing Linval Joseph's contract - ( New Window )

The issue is contract. He wants a new one. So, it would have to be trade/sign.

I don't see the "trade" aspect as being very difficult. Boone might bring a third round pick, but probably a fourth or below is more likely. Trading a fourth round pick for an established right guard is a good deal. A third round pick, maybe.

The contract is the thing. You can't overpay. And, this guy, as I understand it, is a good guard, but not All Pro level or even Pro Bowl.

In comment 11812132 Headhunter said:

Quote:

and having the Giants in deep trouble. I'm glad you stated your feelings so definitively Eric, now. I can save time by not reading them. I like going into each game with the mindset the Giants will win. As a fan I don't need to be given a reality check. I look forward to Sunday's for enjoyment and diversion.

You don't feel that the giants have had a problem the past several drafts and that they're not more than one player away from competing?

In comment 11812457 JesseS said:

Quote:

In comment 11812132 Headhunter said: Quote: and having the Giants in deep trouble. I'm glad you stated your feelings so definitively Eric, now. I can save time by not reading them. I like going into each game with the mindset the Giants will win. As a fan I don't need to be given a reality check. I look forward to Sunday's for enjoyment and diversion. You don't feel that the giants have had a problem the past several drafts and that they're not more than one player away from competing?

Quote:

Headhunter said: I don't need to be given a reality check.

Missed that.

would give the team much versatility with experienced players short & mid term going forward, with or for Shwartz, Beatty, Walton.If one or 2 faulter, you still have an LG(AB) that can move to tackle and GS, who would move to RG if Boone is acquired, with WR moving to RG. If Walton faulters, WR moves to C.
I also believe the Giants will look at almost every OL cut the first cut down date; TC sounded very upset at the lack of performance by the starters, especially the OL and lack of power running, the last 2 PS games.

we should be in "keep your powder dry" mode because there is a ton of future uncertainty with this team. Boone would obviously be worth a mid-round pick, purely on player value, as a good NFL starter is much, much more valuable than a 4th rounder (which if you look at the numbers is extremely likely to turn into absolutely nothing).

The problem is the impending contract. There is a scenario where paying Boone a market-level contract is very reasonable for the Giants. But there are scenarios where it isn't. We know little about the futures of Schwartz, Walton, and Richburg. And at this point, even the immediate futures of the big hitters (Eli, JPP, Coughlin, Reese) are up in the air. We just don't know what the OL or even the overall team construction is going to look like a year from now.

If we were a piece away from being really good, it would make more sense. I don't think that's where we are. And I don't think anybody knows where this team is going to be in a year. So you keep the picks and don't add more money to the books.

is the OL. If we had properly addressed that I think this team wins the East. Now, I really don't know. We made some attempts to address it in FA and it appears (as of now) that it didn't work. Maybe they just need more time together to gel, but Zack Martin is looking more and more like the pick we should have made. I don't care if ODB is on the field, Eli can't get him the ball with this OL.

As far as the D, they can hold their own. If the O was even moderately efficient we could make some noise. Let's just hope by Preseason game 5 the OL has some continuity and it begins working together better.

he had/has a strong supporting cast in SanFran. Is he an upgrade over Mosley? At this point in time yes but this time next year - who knows?

pick OL.

How much better do you think Zach Martin was going to be?

Zach Martin wasn't walking in here and playing LT straight away.

has been the draft Eli needs a pocket we have
taken too many skill players and not enough
on the o-line but Barden Kiehl Austin Moss
Nicks who I still wish we had Wilson turns out
to be bad pick Randle I think will be ok and
now another WR who has yet to see the field Beckum
is another . We are picking up scrubs IMO
I think I would go ahead and get Boone .

does anyone notice these 2 things
1) coughlin really doesnt like to play rookies when he has a vet there unless there is injuries in front of him and
2) the giants kind of stunt rookie development by making them learn 2 and 3 positions? Dont you think learning 1 position is hard enough for a rookie but the Giants are the only team i know of that makes them learn 2 and 3. IDK just a thought on the drafting

Nope...rookies have played early and often under Coughlin when they've been good.

They don't play when they tend to suck.

counting on Richburg at G is that the first-team C has hardly been Jim Otto-like, if you know what I mean. Alex is 27, not 32. He should have 5 years left. In this league, that constitutes longevity. I don't know if the Giants truly even have interest in this deal, but I do know that Coughlin is trying to sell himself on Brewer, yet again. A coach shouldnt do that to himself.

No. As others have pointed out, this team is not one player away & giving up too much when we have other needs is counterproductive in the long-term.

In comment 11812361 Doomster said:

Quote:

Guys Eric from BBI : Admin : 8/17/2014 11:36 pm : link : reply the 2014 New York Giants are not one player away from turning this around. Reese has fucked up 5 drafts. We need a lot of help. Funny, when I say this, Klaatu and company, jump all over my name, rather than what I write.....maybe I should change my moniker to Eric II from BBI.....or maybe Eric could adopt me? I know Klaatu won't....

Eric writes this out of frustration, and even though I don't completely agree with him, I'm not going to call him on it because I feel his pain.

You write your drivel with a sense of glee, and that's why he's Eric from BBI and you're Dumpster. Go fuck yourself.

Giants may not be one player away, but acquiring a player like Boone puts them one player closer.

In comment 11813080 Ten Ton Hammer said:

Quote:

pick OL. How much better do you think Zach Martin was going to be? Zach Martin wasn't walking in here and playing LT straight away.

I didn't know they were restricted to taking only one OL at the top of the draft.

In comment 11814023 jeff57 said:

Quote:

In comment 11813080 Ten Ton Hammer said: Quote: pick OL. How much better do you think Zach Martin was going to be? Zach Martin wasn't walking in here and playing LT straight away. I didn't know they were restricted to taking only one OL at the top of the draft.

So you wanted both.

Is Zach Martin gonna fix LT as a rookie? Or, where is he playing?

And who's Eli throwing to?

Most scouts believed he had the tools and experience to step in there. Otherwise, Richburg could be at C with Martin at LG and Schwartz moving to RG. Or vice versa.

there were plenty to choose from in the midrounds in what was a deep crop in the draft. Plus, the play of Harris and Washington shows that they could get a decent amount of PT.

And even top 5 pick caliber LT prospects don't typically step right in and start at LT in the NFL. He isn't that.