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Philip Rivers 2013 Preseason Stats

gmen9892 : 8/19/2014 11:40 am
Not sure if this has been brought up before, but I think its a good comparison and will help some people step back from the ledge when it comes to Eli and this new offense.

Rivers dealt with the same kind of situation that Eli is going through this year. So I went back to see what kind of preseason he had last year learning a whole new system (similar to what Eli is doing this preseason). Below are his stats from the 3 games he played in (didnt play in the 4th and final game).

5/6 45 yds 0 td's 0 int's
5/9 50 yds 0 td's 1 int 1 fumble lost
10/18 71 yds 0 td's 1 int

I think its fair to say that San Diego's offense got off to just as bad of a start last year when installing a WCO with Rivers. As we all know, they actually ended up putting together a very good offensive regular season and Rivers went on to having his best year. This was also after Rivers put up his worst year in the previous season, also similar to Eli as there were questions about his game.
It helps that Rivers > Eli.  
GiantFilthy : 8/19/2014 11:43 am : link
.
Your stats don't really support your position.  
Jerry K : 8/19/2014 11:44 am : link
Rivers completed 20 passes. How many has Eli completed? Three?
Art Stapleton just wrote about this...  
Seventh Spiel : 8/19/2014 11:59 am : link
.
Link - ( New Window )
You could say that ....  
Racer : 8/19/2014 12:00 pm : link
....completing 60% of his passes and 5Y per attempt was pretty below average for a new offense that was supposed to focus on the short passing game, but that situation looks like a bump in the road compared to the sink hole that is our #1s first 3 pre-season games.
.  
arcarsenal : 8/19/2014 12:03 pm : link
Eli was alright in the first game.. the 2nd game he only attempted 2 passes and the 3rd game was just flat out bad.

The sample is too small to draw definitive conclusions from.

The stats don't worry me. What worries me is Eli's mechanics and his pocket presence. He just doesn't look.. right.
I wonder how far the pendulum will swing the other direction...  
RC02XX : 8/19/2014 12:05 pm : link
when Eli lights up the hapless Lions' secondary in Game 1.
RE: Your stats don't really support your position.  
gmen9892 : 8/19/2014 12:07 pm : link
In comment 11814280 Jerry K said:
Quote:
Rivers completed 20 passes. How many has Eli completed? Three?


Jerry, 10 of those completions came in the third game which is usually the game the starters play the most snaps in. And even in that game, he didnt have a great completion %, he threw a pick and no td's and didnt throw for a ton of yards. So overall, a very bad game.

Eli has yet to play in the most important preseason game, so lets hold off judgement till we see what we got on Friday.
Eli looks like he's as worried about the OL as we are  
jcn56 : 8/19/2014 12:09 pm : link
if they can string together a couple of games where the guy doesn't get hit every 3 seconds, he'll be fine.
RE: Philip Rivers 2013 Preseason Stats  
BigBlueinChicago : 8/19/2014 12:10 pm : link
In comment 11814280 gmen9892 said:
Quote:
I think its fair to say that San Diego's offense got off to just as bad of a start last year when installing a WCO with Rivers.


Looking at the completion percentage and yards per pass attempt ledger for Rivers last year, his worst game for the season in both of those categories took place on Opening Night against the Texans.

14 for 29 (48.2%), 195 yards (6.72 YPA), 4 TD and 1 INT

This was the game they led 28-7 in the 3rd quarter and lost at the buzzer.

Now after that, Rivers over the next 3 games was HOT, completing 80.5% of his passes (91 for 113) with an average of 8.8 yards per attempt. Chargers went 2-1 in those games, beating the Eagles on the road, losing to the Titans on the road, and beating the Cowboys at home.

Everyone learns at a different pace. In the case of Rivers and the Chargers, it took one game before they figured stuff out. The opponents of course may have had something to do with it as well.
Personally  
steve in ky : 8/19/2014 12:13 pm : link
I don't put much stock in preseason wins/losses or stats. And I am also confident that they are working on things trying to both get used to and figure out what works best with the new offense, so a poor offensive outing in preseason doesn't bother me.

However I don't see how anyone doesn't find Eli's to date performance at least a little disconcerting.

That said I don't believe for a moment that Eli has lost it, or can't play with McAdoo as the OC. I am a little worried that between that poor OL, general lack of talent that it may take a little longer for the team and Eli to begin to fully understand it enough to where it clicks and flows smoothly.
Arc....  
BillKo : 8/19/2014 12:16 pm : link
good analysis, and I agree. I also think Eli doesn't look comfortable because he's not getting the time he expects.

We are going to live and die with the OL...if they can open up holes for the run game, and protect Eli decently then we will be ok.

But the sample size is very small.

Ask yourself this, how many times do you see a QB start a game, say, 2-11, then get hot.

We really need to wait.

the unfortunate thing is...  
BillKo : 8/19/2014 12:17 pm : link
that offense fits the short-arming Rivers perfectly.

Our QB can wing it down the field................
I really think  
gmen9892 : 8/19/2014 12:18 pm : link
That what we have seen the first 3 games was FAR from the finished product. The first game, they appeared to be working on the short passing/screens/uptempo game. The second game, they were clearly working on the running game. Last week, I admittedly didnt watch, so im not sure what the heck was going on out there, but they clearly took a step back.

Im interested to see what they come out with this week. I think this is a good test because the Jets have a very good front 7 that can blitz. It will be the ultimate test for Eli and the O-Line to get on the same page blocking wise. After that, I think everything else will fall into place. At least that is the hope.
RE: Arc....  
arcarsenal : 8/19/2014 12:21 pm : link
In comment 11814368 BillKo said:
Quote:
good analysis, and I agree. I also think Eli doesn't look comfortable because he's not getting the time he expects.

We are going to live and die with the OL...if they can open up holes for the run game, and protect Eli decently then we will be ok.

But the sample size is very small.

Ask yourself this, how many times do you see a QB start a game, say, 2-11, then get hot.

We really need to wait.


Yep, in a nutshell this is really about the OL.

The only way for Eli to be "fixed" is to protect him and allow him to get back into a groove. If hes running for his life all year, we're going to be a 5-11 football team. We have to do a better job up front. Right now, Eli isn't trusting his protections at all, he's skittish and his mechanics are all going to hell.
Gmen - I agree with you that the Jet game is an  
Jimmy Googs : 8/19/2014 12:24 pm : link
important one based on the number of snaps the first teamers will get.

However, Eli has typically struggled against the Jets in these preseason games. Sometimes badly, so we'll see if that trend continues.
Rivers is not better than Eli  
PatersonPlank : 8/19/2014 12:24 pm : link
Eli > Rivers
Gmen  
ZogZerg : 8/19/2014 12:45 pm : link
Great thread.

We'll have to get the stats from the Jets game and then compare.

You make a good point. Rivers didn't tear it up in pre-season, but he did in the regular season.
Does Eli trust his protection  
Motley Blue : 8/19/2014 12:49 pm : link
as much as Rivers does?

gmen  
Jerry K : 8/19/2014 12:54 pm : link
I understand what you are saying but I'm not optimistic. Last year the Giants offense didn't look ready to start the season and so far they don't look any better. Maybe things will improve by mid season but...
I know the OL has been a big part of the problem but we've got to be open to the possibility that Eli's skills have diminished. He was never very agile or especially accurate, a slight drop off could seriously impact his performance. Maybe that's part of what we saw last year.
It may be a bit of an apples/oranges comparison  
sjnyfan : 8/19/2014 12:57 pm : link
but this reminds me alot of 2007 when we got Spags as a D coordinator. I'd be lying if I said I remember the 2007 preseason but I remember the first two regular season games. 40 pts/game to the Cowboys and Packers, 2 sacks total and the Fire Coughlin chants were loud and clear. However we finished the final 14 games of the regular season giving up less than 20 pts a game (which includes the disaster against Minny where three of Eli's picks were returned for TDs in a 41-17 loss and the final game against NE, the greatest offense in NFL history at the time), added 51 more sacks and we were a top ten D. The 2008 D in Spags 2nd year was even better, imo.

These things take time, especially under the new CBA where you don't get the same practice time as before. To be frank, I don't expect to really see this offense gel until late September. Hopefully the D, specials and a bit of luck holds us until we do. Will we get the same results as '07 or SD's offense from last year? We don't know. I don't think anyone knows. But I'm also patient and optimistic. Time will tell.
RE: Does Eli trust his protection  
YAJ2112 : 8/19/2014 12:58 pm : link
In comment 11814457 Motley Blue said:
Quote:
as much as Rivers does?


Rivers had King Dunlap (aka Osi' bitch) starting at LT last year. So probably about the same level of trust.
Sorry, but he is.  
GiantFilthy : 8/19/2014 1:02 pm : link
Quote:
Rivers is not better than Eli
PatersonPlank : 12:24 pm : link : reply
Eli > Rivers
Rivers > Eli.....  
BillKo : 8/19/2014 1:08 pm : link
when it comes to running around on the field and yelling at anyone who will listen.............
Eh, Rivers is better than Eli and has been for pretty much all but one  
Riggies : 8/19/2014 1:13 pm : link
season. You can't even argue the "He's a winner!" thing because Rivers' career winning percentage as a starter is better than Eli's.

None of us should give a single damn about it either.

The Giants won the deal, as far as we should be concerned, when Eli played the role he did in the first SB, forget the second one. Rivers had more talented teams in SD than Eli ever did here and the chips didn't fall right for him there; there's zero reason to think they would have here.
You have about as much chance of articulating your Rivers > Eli  
NYG82 : 8/19/2014 1:18 pm : link
stance as my shoe. Sorry, but it's true.
Hate to be the bearer of bad truth, fellas!  
GiantFilthy : 8/19/2014 1:33 pm : link
.
Philip Rivers  
YAJ2112 : 8/19/2014 1:34 pm : link
is the Eddie Money of NFL QBs
You all love  
GiantFilthy : 8/19/2014 1:36 pm : link
Eddie Money.
well...if Rivers is indeed better...  
BillKo : 8/19/2014 1:37 pm : link
..you need to ask yourself, if you could go back to 2004 and know what you know now, would you take Rivers or Eli?

That really is the question.

Or are we playing fantasy football here instead?
RE: Does Eli trust his protection  
BigBlueinChicago : 8/19/2014 1:42 pm : link
In comment 11814457 Motley Blue said:
Quote:
as much as Rivers does?


This is a good question.

Here was the Chargers offensive line in 2012 based on total snaps:

LT - Mike Harris (602)
LG - Tyronne Green (756)
C - Nick Hardwick (1056)
RG - Louis Vasquez (1057) (Left for Denver and became 1st team All-Pro)
RT - Jeromey Clary (859)

Final results:

31st in rushing
4th in fewest hits (made up for by Rivers simply throwing the ball away)
28th in in sacks allowed

Sound familiar?

Now, lets advance 1 year later to 2013

LT - King Dunlap (635) Suffered 2 concussions and missed 5 games
LG - Chad Rinehart (638)/Johnie Troutman (603)
C - Nick Hardwick (1024)
RG - Jeromey Clary (987)
RT - DJ Fluker (999)

Final result:

13th in rushing
60 QB hits (5th fewest in the NFL)
30 sacks allowed (4th fewest in the NFL)

So they basically changed over/adjusted 80% of its offensive line (sound familiar?) with only Hardwick as the only constant and lost what would became a 1st team All-Pro guard to its division rival.

Folks kept wondering what happened the Rivers, but the reason for it is his offensive failed him dramatically in 2012 and he was getting pressured and sacked...alot.

They made all of these changes (new HC McCoy and OC Wisenhunt), did the same with the personnel and the results worked wonders not only for Rivers, but the whole team.

Take a look at the article linked. If you replaced Rivers with Eli Manning, the whole thing sounds like the 2013 Giants offense and the questions we are asking right now.

Why the San Diego Chargers' New Offense Could Fix Philip Rivers - ( New Window )
That really isn't the question at all though.  
GiantFilthy : 8/19/2014 1:49 pm : link
Quote:
well...if Rivers is indeed better...
BillKo : 1:37 pm : link : reply
..you need to ask yourself, if you could go back to 2004 and know what you know now, would you take Rivers or Eli?

That really is the question.


Unless this is the 2004-13 season we are about to start, all that matters is who is better right now. But even looking back, aside from a season and a few out of this world runs, Rivers has always been a better quarterback.
.  
jcn56 : 8/19/2014 1:54 pm : link
Quote:
aside from a season and a few out of this world runs,


Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?
if you're talking right now...  
BillKo : 8/19/2014 1:54 pm : link
you take Rivers. Eli has to prove himself this season.

But, if you regard Rivers as the better overall QB over their careers, then you're saying you would have rather had Rivers QB'ing the Giants rather than Manning, yes?
.  
arcarsenal : 8/19/2014 1:59 pm : link
Well, if you replaced 2007-8 Eli with 2007-8 Rivers and 2011-12 Eli with 2011-12 Rivers, do the Giants still have two chips?

The world will never know.

For the record, I do think Rivers is better now and has been in a lot of years, but.. Eli came through when the stakes were highest and has been a much better playoff QB. So. Maybe you weight that more. There are also a billion other factors involved.

In any event, I'm completely fine having taken the guy we did.
Rivers has always struck me....  
BillKo : 8/19/2014 2:03 pm : link
as a great stats QB who never really can take control of a football game when it matters.

Like last year versus Denver in the playoffs, they were there for the taking, the Broncos still weren't playing well.

And the Chargers never even seemed like a threat.
Two sides to this.  
GiantFilthy : 8/19/2014 2:04 pm : link
One side of me says we don't win either Super Bowl without Eli going straight up Chuck Norris.

Other side says this team probably would have gone much further most every other seasons had it not been for Eli.
.  
arcarsenal : 8/19/2014 2:07 pm : link
Eli is really one of the strangest QB's in NFL history and I think that will be what is kind of remembered most about him. He's polarizing, his career arc has been fairly unconventional. He's been amazing in the highest pressure situations and then has gone on to look absolutely awful in others. Just a very, very weird career. But one we'll all be thankful for in the end.
I think eventually Giants fans will have mostly fond memories of Eli.  
GiantFilthy : 8/19/2014 2:13 pm : link
Just like Simms, time will make him a better QB than what he actually was and drown out some of the bad times. That happens with most athletes who had success. But with Eli, I think that begins and ends with Giants fans. I don't think his high notes will be remembered well to other football fans and the perception that he really isn't a very good QB will also keep him out of the HOF.
Filthy..  
BillKo : 8/19/2014 2:15 pm : link
LOL...Chuck Norris, love it!
RE: I think eventually Giants fans will have mostly fond memories of Eli.  
BrettNYG10 : 8/19/2014 2:20 pm : link
In comment 11814668 GiantFilthy said:
Quote:
Just like Simms, time will make him a better QB than what he actually was and drown out some of the bad times. That happens with most athletes who had success. But with Eli, I think that begins and ends with Giants fans. I don't think his high notes will be remembered well to other football fans and the perception that he really isn't a very good QB will also keep him out of the HOF.


Eli needs 2-3 more seasons like 2011 or another SB to get him into the Hall, IMO.

I don't think Rivers is a HOF QB, either. I think Roethlisberger is most likely to get in out of the three 2004 QBs.
For Rivers to get in  
GiantFilthy : 8/19/2014 2:24 pm : link
I think he needs to either win a SB or at least string another 3 or more seasons together like last year. He has a career QB rating right around 100 and voters gobble that shit up.
.  
arcarsenal : 8/19/2014 2:28 pm : link
Most non-Giant fans will remember Eli as a decent QB who got "lucky" at the right times. That's just how it is. If he were an Eagle, most of us would probably discount him in the same way and say "yeah.. he had one great year. His team carried him mostly in his first SB run and his defense had a lot to do with him winning the 2nd. He was never really an 'elite' QB. Threw a TON of picks, was never consistently a top NFL QB, etc"

And it's hard to argue with most of those points. But at the end of the day, the man has 2 rings and 2 SB MVP's. Mission accomplished.
RE: .  
gmen9892 : 8/19/2014 2:53 pm : link
In comment 11814715 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
Most non-Giant fans will remember Eli as a decent QB who got "lucky" at the right times. That's just how it is. If he were an Eagle, most of us would probably discount him in the same way and say "yeah.. he had one great year. His team carried him mostly in his first SB run and his defense had a lot to do with him winning the 2nd. He was never really an 'elite' QB. Threw a TON of picks, was never consistently a top NFL QB, etc"


Why do people discount Eli's nearly flawless 2007 playoff run and say the defense carried him? I think he threw maybe 2 picks that whole postseason. And in 2011, he absolutely carried that whole team to the Super Bowl. The defense only started to come on during the postseason. Without Eli's regular season, we dont sniff the playoffs, let alone the SB.
Eli hasn't been the same..  
Sean : 8/19/2014 2:53 pm : link
since halftime at SF in October of 2012. I don't know what it is, but hopefully it clicks again for him soon.
RE: RE: .  
arcarsenal : 8/19/2014 3:05 pm : link
In comment 11814774 gmen9892 said:
Quote:
In comment 11814715 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


Most non-Giant fans will remember Eli as a decent QB who got "lucky" at the right times. That's just how it is. If he were an Eagle, most of us would probably discount him in the same way and say "yeah.. he had one great year. His team carried him mostly in his first SB run and his defense had a lot to do with him winning the 2nd. He was never really an 'elite' QB. Threw a TON of picks, was never consistently a top NFL QB, etc"



Why do people discount Eli's nearly flawless 2007 playoff run and say the defense carried him? I think he threw maybe 2 picks that whole postseason. And in 2011, he absolutely carried that whole team to the Super Bowl. The defense only started to come on during the postseason. Without Eli's regular season, we dont sniff the playoffs, let alone the SB.


I don't necessarily hold that opinion, it's just what people do (and would) say about him. I personally thought Eli's game against the Packers in the 2008 NFCC Game was one of the best of his entire career. And the drive he led in Dallas right before half in the Divisional game that year was massive and conveniently forgotten by many.

There are just parts of Eli's career that are difficult to explain. The man has looked so masterful at times and so completely lost at others. It's just been a very interesting and unparalleled career for a QB and I expect it to take one more strange twist before all is said and done. (Hopefully that isn't him suddenly being god-awful)
This is a good  
BSIMatt : 8/19/2014 3:49 pm : link
thread and I agree with this

Quote:

Eli was alright in the first game.. the 2nd game he only attempted 2 passes and the 3rd game was just flat out bad.

The sample is too small to draw definitive conclusions from.


It is interesting to look at the comparisons in the change over on the offensive line. It is also worth noting(and I posted this in another thread), Eli has change not only in the offensive line but he using 2 new running backs, a new TE, and is playing without Hakeem's replacement. The system is new, and many of the starters working around him are new even beyond the offensive line. If the Giants went into the season with a passing attack comprised of only Cruz, Randle, Jernigan, and Larry Donnell I'd be concerned, there is a very real reason they drafted Beckham..they need him, which is scary to say about a rookie, especially one who has missed so much time.
Rivers has much better touch  
Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy : 8/19/2014 7:11 pm : link
he just knows how to float it in accurately and this has helped him over the years in both the screen game and the downfield passing game. Drew Brees has the best touch in the game imo, but Rivers is up there.

But Eli (outside of last year where everything sucked) has been much more dangerous when it comes to throws outside the hashes where he has to drive it in hard.

Historically, Eli has been among the best "clutch" situation QBs in football and Rivers has been among the worst. One of the big reasons why is because Rivers weak arm doesn't get enough MPHs on those tough outside the hashes intermediate-deep passes that become necessary in those clutch situations when the D knows what is coming.

I think Rivers' touch and more consistent accuracy has made him the higher floor player. But Eli's stronger arm and greater ability to make "difficult" throws makes him a higher ceiling player. Eli's ceiling is HOF caliber, he just doesn't play at that level consistently enough to be considered a true HOFer. Rivers is a very good QB and a couple of bounces here and there and he might have played in a Super Bowl or two. But I'm glad we drafted Eli because he simply has the ability to hit a level that Rivers just isn't capable of.

Unfortunately we haven't seen Eli hit that level in a while now. I just hate how awful Eli has looked the past 1.5 years. Sean mentioned it earlier, but I also look back to that San Fran halftime as the turning point. I don't know if it was physical or what, but he just hasn't been the same.

I'm hoping he bounces back but this pre-season hasn't helped. This is a big year in Eli's career and I really hope he can prove the doubters wrong once again.
Thanks, Spiel  
GeofromNJ : 8/19/2014 9:51 pm : link
Good article.
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