Not sure if this has been brought up before, but I think its a good comparison and will help some people step back from the ledge when it comes to Eli and this new offense.
Rivers dealt with the same kind of situation that Eli is going through this year. So I went back to see what kind of preseason he had last year learning a whole new system (similar to what Eli is doing this preseason). Below are his stats from the 3 games he played in (didnt play in the 4th and final game).
5/6 45 yds 0 td's 0 int's
5/9 50 yds 0 td's 1 int 1 fumble lost
10/18 71 yds 0 td's 1 int
I think its fair to say that San Diego's offense got off to just as bad of a start last year when installing a WCO with Rivers. As we all know, they actually ended up putting together a very good offensive regular season and Rivers went on to having his best year. This was also after Rivers put up his worst year in the previous season, also similar to Eli as there were questions about his game.
Link - ( New Window )
The sample is too small to draw definitive conclusions from.
The stats don't worry me. What worries me is Eli's mechanics and his pocket presence. He just doesn't look.. right.
Jerry, 10 of those completions came in the third game which is usually the game the starters play the most snaps in. And even in that game, he didnt have a great completion %, he threw a pick and no td's and didnt throw for a ton of yards. So overall, a very bad game.
Eli has yet to play in the most important preseason game, so lets hold off judgement till we see what we got on Friday.
Looking at the completion percentage and yards per pass attempt ledger for Rivers last year, his worst game for the season in both of those categories took place on Opening Night against the Texans.
14 for 29 (48.2%), 195 yards (6.72 YPA), 4 TD and 1 INT
This was the game they led 28-7 in the 3rd quarter and lost at the buzzer.
Now after that, Rivers over the next 3 games was HOT, completing 80.5% of his passes (91 for 113) with an average of 8.8 yards per attempt. Chargers went 2-1 in those games, beating the Eagles on the road, losing to the Titans on the road, and beating the Cowboys at home.
Everyone learns at a different pace. In the case of Rivers and the Chargers, it took one game before they figured stuff out. The opponents of course may have had something to do with it as well.
However I don't see how anyone doesn't find Eli's to date performance at least a little disconcerting.
That said I don't believe for a moment that Eli has lost it, or can't play with McAdoo as the OC. I am a little worried that between that poor OL, general lack of talent that it may take a little longer for the team and Eli to begin to fully understand it enough to where it clicks and flows smoothly.
We are going to live and die with the OL...if they can open up holes for the run game, and protect Eli decently then we will be ok.
But the sample size is very small.
Ask yourself this, how many times do you see a QB start a game, say, 2-11, then get hot.
We really need to wait.
Our QB can wing it down the field................
Im interested to see what they come out with this week. I think this is a good test because the Jets have a very good front 7 that can blitz. It will be the ultimate test for Eli and the O-Line to get on the same page blocking wise. After that, I think everything else will fall into place. At least that is the hope.
We are going to live and die with the OL...if they can open up holes for the run game, and protect Eli decently then we will be ok.
But the sample size is very small.
Ask yourself this, how many times do you see a QB start a game, say, 2-11, then get hot.
We really need to wait.
Yep, in a nutshell this is really about the OL.
The only way for Eli to be "fixed" is to protect him and allow him to get back into a groove. If hes running for his life all year, we're going to be a 5-11 football team. We have to do a better job up front. Right now, Eli isn't trusting his protections at all, he's skittish and his mechanics are all going to hell.
However, Eli has typically struggled against the Jets in these preseason games. Sometimes badly, so we'll see if that trend continues.
We'll have to get the stats from the Jets game and then compare.
You make a good point. Rivers didn't tear it up in pre-season, but he did in the regular season.
I know the OL has been a big part of the problem but we've got to be open to the possibility that Eli's skills have diminished. He was never very agile or especially accurate, a slight drop off could seriously impact his performance. Maybe that's part of what we saw last year.
These things take time, especially under the new CBA where you don't get the same practice time as before. To be frank, I don't expect to really see this offense gel until late September. Hopefully the D, specials and a bit of luck holds us until we do. Will we get the same results as '07 or SD's offense from last year? We don't know. I don't think anyone knows. But I'm also patient and optimistic. Time will tell.
Rivers had King Dunlap (aka Osi' bitch) starting at LT last year. So probably about the same level of trust.
PatersonPlank : 12:24 pm : link : reply
Eli > Rivers
None of us should give a single damn about it either.
The Giants won the deal, as far as we should be concerned, when Eli played the role he did in the first SB, forget the second one. Rivers had more talented teams in SD than Eli ever did here and the chips didn't fall right for him there; there's zero reason to think they would have here.
That really is the question.
Or are we playing fantasy football here instead?
This is a good question.
Here was the Chargers offensive line in 2012 based on total snaps:
LT - Mike Harris (602)
LG - Tyronne Green (756)
C - Nick Hardwick (1056)
RG - Louis Vasquez (1057) (Left for Denver and became 1st team All-Pro)
RT - Jeromey Clary (859)
Final results:
31st in rushing
4th in fewest hits (made up for by Rivers simply throwing the ball away)
28th in in sacks allowed
Sound familiar?
Now, lets advance 1 year later to 2013
LT - King Dunlap (635) Suffered 2 concussions and missed 5 games
LG - Chad Rinehart (638)/Johnie Troutman (603)
C - Nick Hardwick (1024)
RG - Jeromey Clary (987)
RT - DJ Fluker (999)
Final result:
13th in rushing
60 QB hits (5th fewest in the NFL)
30 sacks allowed (4th fewest in the NFL)
So they basically changed over/adjusted 80% of its offensive line (sound familiar?) with only Hardwick as the only constant and lost what would became a 1st team All-Pro guard to its division rival.
Folks kept wondering what happened the Rivers, but the reason for it is his offensive failed him dramatically in 2012 and he was getting pressured and sacked...alot.
They made all of these changes (new HC McCoy and OC Wisenhunt), did the same with the personnel and the results worked wonders not only for Rivers, but the whole team.
Take a look at the article linked. If you replaced Rivers with Eli Manning, the whole thing sounds like the 2013 Giants offense and the questions we are asking right now.
Why the San Diego Chargers' New Offense Could Fix Philip Rivers - ( New Window )
BillKo : 1:37 pm : link : reply
..you need to ask yourself, if you could go back to 2004 and know what you know now, would you take Rivers or Eli?
That really is the question.
Unless this is the 2004-13 season we are about to start, all that matters is who is better right now. But even looking back, aside from a season and a few out of this world runs, Rivers has always been a better quarterback.
Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?
But, if you regard Rivers as the better overall QB over their careers, then you're saying you would have rather had Rivers QB'ing the Giants rather than Manning, yes?
The world will never know.
For the record, I do think Rivers is better now and has been in a lot of years, but.. Eli came through when the stakes were highest and has been a much better playoff QB. So. Maybe you weight that more. There are also a billion other factors involved.
In any event, I'm completely fine having taken the guy we did.
Like last year versus Denver in the playoffs, they were there for the taking, the Broncos still weren't playing well.
And the Chargers never even seemed like a threat.
Other side says this team probably would have gone much further most every other seasons had it not been for Eli.
Eli needs 2-3 more seasons like 2011 or another SB to get him into the Hall, IMO.
I don't think Rivers is a HOF QB, either. I think Roethlisberger is most likely to get in out of the three 2004 QBs.
And it's hard to argue with most of those points. But at the end of the day, the man has 2 rings and 2 SB MVP's. Mission accomplished.
Why do people discount Eli's nearly flawless 2007 playoff run and say the defense carried him? I think he threw maybe 2 picks that whole postseason. And in 2011, he absolutely carried that whole team to the Super Bowl. The defense only started to come on during the postseason. Without Eli's regular season, we dont sniff the playoffs, let alone the SB.
Quote:
Most non-Giant fans will remember Eli as a decent QB who got "lucky" at the right times. That's just how it is. If he were an Eagle, most of us would probably discount him in the same way and say "yeah.. he had one great year. His team carried him mostly in his first SB run and his defense had a lot to do with him winning the 2nd. He was never really an 'elite' QB. Threw a TON of picks, was never consistently a top NFL QB, etc"
Why do people discount Eli's nearly flawless 2007 playoff run and say the defense carried him? I think he threw maybe 2 picks that whole postseason. And in 2011, he absolutely carried that whole team to the Super Bowl. The defense only started to come on during the postseason. Without Eli's regular season, we dont sniff the playoffs, let alone the SB.
I don't necessarily hold that opinion, it's just what people do (and would) say about him. I personally thought Eli's game against the Packers in the 2008 NFCC Game was one of the best of his entire career. And the drive he led in Dallas right before half in the Divisional game that year was massive and conveniently forgotten by many.
There are just parts of Eli's career that are difficult to explain. The man has looked so masterful at times and so completely lost at others. It's just been a very interesting and unparalleled career for a QB and I expect it to take one more strange twist before all is said and done. (Hopefully that isn't him suddenly being god-awful)
Eli was alright in the first game.. the 2nd game he only attempted 2 passes and the 3rd game was just flat out bad.
The sample is too small to draw definitive conclusions from.
It is interesting to look at the comparisons in the change over on the offensive line. It is also worth noting(and I posted this in another thread), Eli has change not only in the offensive line but he using 2 new running backs, a new TE, and is playing without Hakeem's replacement. The system is new, and many of the starters working around him are new even beyond the offensive line. If the Giants went into the season with a passing attack comprised of only Cruz, Randle, Jernigan, and Larry Donnell I'd be concerned, there is a very real reason they drafted Beckham..they need him, which is scary to say about a rookie, especially one who has missed so much time.
But Eli (outside of last year where everything sucked) has been much more dangerous when it comes to throws outside the hashes where he has to drive it in hard.
Historically, Eli has been among the best "clutch" situation QBs in football and Rivers has been among the worst. One of the big reasons why is because Rivers weak arm doesn't get enough MPHs on those tough outside the hashes intermediate-deep passes that become necessary in those clutch situations when the D knows what is coming.
I think Rivers' touch and more consistent accuracy has made him the higher floor player. But Eli's stronger arm and greater ability to make "difficult" throws makes him a higher ceiling player. Eli's ceiling is HOF caliber, he just doesn't play at that level consistently enough to be considered a true HOFer. Rivers is a very good QB and a couple of bounces here and there and he might have played in a Super Bowl or two. But I'm glad we drafted Eli because he simply has the ability to hit a level that Rivers just isn't capable of.
Unfortunately we haven't seen Eli hit that level in a while now. I just hate how awful Eli has looked the past 1.5 years. Sean mentioned it earlier, but I also look back to that San Fran halftime as the turning point. I don't know if it was physical or what, but he just hasn't been the same.
I'm hoping he bounces back but this pre-season hasn't helped. This is a big year in Eli's career and I really hope he can prove the doubters wrong once again.