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From ESPN -- Report on Giants Offensive Line...

M.S. : 8/20/2014 5:21 am
...from Dan Graziano.

He makes 3 points:

1) Issues with our OL are more pressing than the injuries to our #1 draft choice at WR;

2) Experimenting with Pugh at LT; Moseley at RT and Richburg at RG;

3) Struggling with lack of depth despite off-season moves.


What is left unsaid is the impact this unit has had on the starting QB. Around BBI, the mantra has always been: #1 -- protect the crown jewel. After what happened to Eli in Carolina last season, we're all just hoping the crown jewel can be restored to its former luster.

If nothing else, the offensive line now has everyone's attention in the Giants' organization and that over the next 2-3 years they should be able to fix this problem.


Practice report: More O-line shuffling - ( New Window )
unless they fix the line  
newmike2 : 8/20/2014 5:47 am : link
Eli won't last two-three years.. he won't last 2-3 games once teams figure out the new offense.
Assuming we stay healthy these next 3 weeks....  
SGMen : 8/20/2014 6:00 am : link
Our opening day OL will be better than we think. It won't be as bad as last year's line at least. But again, it won't be elite.
If Beatty isn't all the way back pretty soon...  
Big Blue Blogger : 8/20/2014 6:00 am : link
... then the best combination (from left-to-right) might be:

Pugh-Richburg-Walton-Schwartz-Mosley.

That grouping separates the two least experienced players (Richburg and Mosley), and puts each lineman except Richburg in a position where he probably feels comfortable:
- Pugh anchored the Syracuse line at LT;
- Walton is a natural C;
- Schwartz made his name last year at RG in KC;
- Aside from a brief, unsuccessful audition at LT, Mosley played RT for his two years at Auburn.

That combination might evolve into a decent line, if they could play together for a few months. What it's not, however, is a very promising stopgap solution to buy time for Beatty to reach 100%. That's where the poor showings so far by Brown and Jerry really hurt. They were supposed to be the plug-in veteran backups. Instead, they are just two more question marks.
In other words...  
Big Blue Blogger : 8/20/2014 6:02 am : link
...we all need to root really hard for Will Beatty. Nothing new there.
Translation: They should have drafted Zack Martin  
jeff57 : 8/20/2014 6:30 am : link
.
Beatty's recovery has been on or ahead of schedule  
BillT : 8/20/2014 7:06 am : link
There isn't a good reason to think he won't be ready to start the season. That doesn't mean the OL is set or going to be without issues but It would be more of a surprise if he isn't ready then if he is.
And the Pugh-Richburg-Walton-Schwartz-Mosley.  
BillT : 8/20/2014 7:13 am : link
Lineup was about Brown and Brewer being out not any issue with Beatty.
I'm a believer that your OL allows your skill positions to shine  
gersh : 8/20/2014 7:37 am : link
But I still think Odell will prove to be a great pick over Martin. ODB can really shine in this offense, hopefully even with a line that is still gelling
BillT: Agreed - no sign of a setback so far for Beatty.  
Big Blue Blogger : 8/20/2014 7:46 am : link
He's still Plan A. Where they seem to be tinkering is with alternate versions of Plan B, because some of the guys who were central to Plan "B1" may be working their way off the team.
need to make a move for Boone  
Andy in Boston : 8/20/2014 7:49 am : link
he's a very good player. Has great versatility.
He's probably not ready to play given that he's had no offseason...but he can be ready within a few weeks....depends what kind of shape he's in.
Amazing that Pat Flaherty  
TMS : 8/20/2014 7:51 am : link
the OL coach is never criticized for the decline and failure of our OL for the last five years. Obviously a Coughlin favorite who has been here from the beginning, but would think he would get some of the criticism here once in a while. He has to have some input into who to draft, sign in FA etc. Why is he considered such a competent OL coach still, after this record ? His credentials were nothing special when he was hired and still are not.
RE: Translation: They should have drafted Zack Martin  
I Love Clams Casino : 8/20/2014 8:00 am : link
In comment 11815606 jeff57 said:
Quote:
.


agreed...I was very disappointed when the Giants didn't pick him and even more disappointed when Dallas got him....

blue chip guys like these disappear fast....any word on how he's progressing in Dallas?
I pretty much guarantee you that if they had drafted MArtin -  
gidiefor : Mod : 8/20/2014 8:11 am : link
they wouldn't have drafted Richburg - and there would be a hole horde of howling about our WR crew - Beckham was a good pick - and so was Richburg - it's unfortunate that Beckham's having hammy problems - but time will pass and he will produce

I don't a real downside to having Richburg as opposed to MArtin
I don't [see] a down side  
gidiefor : Mod : 8/20/2014 8:12 am : link
that is
Reese  
SBlue46 : 8/20/2014 8:12 am : link
Made mistake thinking beatty would be healthy
and he sucks anyway...plus draft a center when
we could have had 2 0r 3 ot....we have decent
depth at g and c...need ot....not sure Flaherty
is that good...boone trade is only good if beatty
is cut and he can play lL OT..
stop making excuses for Eli  
HomerJones45 : 8/20/2014 8:13 am : link
There were lots of qb's who were hit and sacked more than Eli last season who ranked a lot higher than 31st in the league. One was Rogers. Another was the ultra mobile Russell Wilson. If that is your measure, Tannehill should be in the fetal position.

If the One is that skittish, then he's no longer the One, he's the Done.
thank you Homer  
gidiefor : Mod : 8/20/2014 8:16 am : link
I am very comforted that you feel that way - since you are remarkably and consistently over the top dead wrong
RE: I pretty much guarantee you that if they had drafted MArtin -  
jeff57 : 8/20/2014 8:21 am : link
In comment 11815645 gidiefor said:
Quote:
they wouldn't have drafted Richburg - and there would be a hole horde of howling about our WR crew - Beckham was a good pick - and so was Richburg - it's unfortunate that Beckham's having hammy problems - but time will pass and he will produce

I don't a real downside to having Richburg as opposed to MArtin


Don't see how you could guarantee that. The OL
needed the most upgrade. And the draft was deep in WRs. Nothing against Beckham, who I like. But not as the # 11 player in
the draft.
Reform the line!!!  
Bold Ruler : Mod : 8/20/2014 8:42 am : link
Reform the line!!!
The Giants should have drafted  
LauderdaleMatty : 8/20/2014 8:52 am : link
Martin and Richberg and gone WR in Rd 3. Bromley in Rd 3 was a luxury. He may become a very good player but a 3rd sting DL or a starting quality OL. What is honestly more important?

Over the years Reese picks DL, DBs, and WRs In the first 3 rounds 3 times more often than he does OL. Is it any surprise there's no depth on that unit. Until the last two years when it's too late he grabbed two high and when it was apparent that unit was a total mess.

Little depth with cast offs and FA signings that have had very variable levels of success.

This OL is all on Reese. OBjr may turn out to be a great player but Jernigan,Austin, Beckum, Barden, Sintim were all high picks that easy could have been best available OL choices to build up that line. Even Hankins who looks like a player could have been another pick if they resigned Joseph.

Reese has short shrifted the OL for the first years of his tenure w only Beatty to show for it. That in and of itself say it all.

This unit certainly can be better than we've seen and better than last years unit but is that a big deal? Moving up from the bottom 5 to bottoms 10 isn't impressive. Throw in a whole new offense and if this team excels TC deserves instant enshrinement in the HOF.
RE: The Giants should have drafted  
nicky43 : 8/20/2014 9:05 am : link
In comment 11815702 LauderdaleMatty said:
Quote:
Martin and Richberg and gone WR in Rd 3. Bromley in Rd 3 was a luxury. He may become a very good player but a 3rd sting DL or a starting quality OL. What is honestly more important?

Over the years Reese picks DL, DBs, and WRs In the first 3 rounds 3 times more often than he does OL. Is it any surprise there's no depth on that unit. Until the last two years when it's too late he grabbed two high and when it was apparent that unit was a total mess.

Little depth with cast offs and FA signings that have had very variable levels of success.

This OL is all on Reese. OBjr may turn out to be a great player but Jernigan,Austin, Beckum, Barden, Sintim were all high picks that easy could have been best available OL choices to build up that line. Even Hankins who looks like a player could have been another pick if they resigned Joseph.

Reese has short shrifted the OL for the first years of his tenure w only Beatty to show for it. That in and of itself say it all.

This unit certainly can be better than we've seen and better than last years unit but is that a big deal? Moving up from the bottom 5 to bottoms 10 isn't impressive. Throw in a whole new offense and if this team excels TC deserves instant enshrinement in the HOF.


I agree but don't give this new oline as much credit as you. Reece needs to correct his error and Trade Odel for a top Guard or Tackle. Our line is so bad we could use 2 of each that play on either side!

hard 2 believe  
area junc : 8/20/2014 9:09 am : link
the line's been ignored like it has. we watch it fall apart at the seams and then we take david wilson over cordy glenn, who could've played either T or G spot. we blindly clung to snee and diehl as long as they were willing to try despite the fact they were getting eli killed. we extend beatty when we know damn well how flaky he is. we go out and pick up OK (at best) players in schwartz and walton and pretend we're doing something about it.

we have been stupid about it, there is no other way to say it and we appear to have mis-handled it to the point where our QB is now screwed and the whole team may be non-competitive.

that being said, richburg is too good, and our line too devoid of talent, to keep on the bench
Matty  
Klaatu : 8/20/2014 9:10 am : link
Bromley isn't 3rd string now, and he'll be a starter next year. Drafting a DT wasn't a luxury, it was a necessity what with the age and uncertainty at that position. Bust on JR all you want, but not because he spent a 3rd round pick on Jay Bromley.
homerjones  
dep026 : 8/20/2014 9:14 am : link
Jomo and boss man are in the lead for the fucktard of the year already.
I'm all for coming up with the best combination  
Bill in UT : 8/20/2014 9:18 am : link
But to still be doing this amount of experimenting so late in the preseason does not auger well for the early part of the year. We're likely to get off to a very rough start.
Reform the line?  
Carl in CT : 8/20/2014 9:20 am : link
Last time I looked the whole fucking line is new and young! Now if you say they suck well that's a different argument.
Whatever  
PaulBlakeTSU : 8/20/2014 9:23 am : link
O-line composition that Coughlin chooses, I hope he plays them a lot over the next two pre-season games, even if it is with Nassib behind center and backup players at other skill positions. So much of O-line success is based upon cohesion and it's something the Giants O-line lacks even more than they lack individual skill and experience at these positions. I understand that you don't want players getting hurt in the pre-season, but you also want to be prepared for the regular season and give the team a shot to compete. Plus, severe injury rates to offensive lineman are much lower than at other positions, so I think it is a calculated risk.
For all of the problems with the line  
sjnyfan : 8/20/2014 9:27 am : link
I think alot of our woes could be fixed if they just moved Schwartz to RG where he belongs. I don't know if this was a Reese, Coughlin or McAdoo decision but that's where he should be. Pugh will continue to progress and I really think Beatty will bounce back (and hopefully stay healthy since there really isn't any depth behind him). But how much better would we all feel if Monday night against Detroit was like this:

Beatty-Richburg-Walton-Schwartz-Pugh?

Even if they flipped Mosley and Schwartz I'd be more content. Mosley for all of his inconsistency at least has experience on the left side and I'd rather have one question mark at guard than two simply because one is out of position.
sjnyfan  
Klaatu : 8/20/2014 9:32 am : link
I keep saying the same thing about Schwartz, but I keep getting told that it doesn't matter.
This is some scary shit.  
drkenneth : 8/20/2014 9:35 am : link
.
No Coach including Lombardi  
RetroJint : 8/20/2014 9:43 am : link
could make chicken salad from chicken shit. Leave Flaherty alone. Get better talent. Also Eli, given his Lot's Wife After the Peek mobility, is a special needs quarterback .
Kirwan has been saying for over a year and a half....  
Racer : 8/20/2014 9:55 am : link
...that Beatty can't handle a quality pass rusher one on one, and Bob Wylie confirmed that last year his technique was atrocious.

Kirwan said a few weeks ago that in his conversations with coaches across the league, the number one issue with this team is that the offensive line doesn't look like it's going to be able to get the job done.

A Giant fan called in yesterday anticipating a 3 win season, and after the call, the change in offenses came up. Jim Miller said he didn't expect the offense to really roll for several weeks. PK responded that many teams have put in new offenses, but that the problem is "Hey, they can't protect Eli!"

I know I tend to parrot Kirwan a lot on this board when against my better judgement I make a post, but I give him the benefit of the doubt based on his experience and the number of quality contacts that provide him with feedback.
RE: sjnyfan  
sjnyfan : 8/20/2014 10:00 am : link
In comment 11815778 Klaatu said:
Quote:
I keep saying the same thing about Schwartz, but I keep getting told that it doesn't matter.


I hear you, Klaatu. We're falling on deaf ears.
the people that only looked at the score thru the first 3 quarters...  
SB : 8/20/2014 10:29 am : link
...probably missed that Beatty looked very mobile and active when he was on the field. A very good sign. But he needs to get the rust out and get in sync with his LG.

Which makes me wonder why Pugh is practicing at LT. Is it a hedge? Is there something wrong with Beatty? If Beatty is fine health-wise he needs to be the one practicing at LT as much possible.
Both Brown and Brewer are nursing injuries  
Jimmy Googs : 8/20/2014 10:32 am : link
so they needed someone else (Pugh) to spell Beatty at practice every now and then.

There maybe something more to it, but not likely...
RE: Kirwan has been saying for over a year and a half....  
Semipro Lineman : 8/20/2014 10:53 am : link
In comment 11815829 Racer said:
Quote:
...that Beatty can't handle a quality pass rusher one on one, and Bob Wylie confirmed that last year his technique was atrocious.

Kirwan said a few weeks ago that in his conversations with coaches across the league, the number one issue with this team is that the offensive line doesn't look like it's going to be able to get the job done.

A Giant fan called in yesterday anticipating a 3 win season, and after the call, the change in offenses came up. Jim Miller said he didn't expect the offense to really roll for several weeks. PK responded that many teams have put in new offenses, but that the problem is "Hey, they can't protect Eli!"

I know I tend to parrot Kirwan a lot on this board when against my better judgement I make a post, but I give him the benefit of the doubt based on his experience and the number of quality contacts that provide him with feedback.


This is the same Kirwan who thinks that Jay Bromley is going to be L. Josephs' replacement instead of Hankins? He may be a good national writer, that doesn't mean he is wired in or has great contacts on this team.

Also the idea that Beatty didn't play well other than last season is as silly as saying Nicks wasn't really a no. one receiver before 2013. The idea that it has already been determined that the Giants can't protect Eli is also just as silly.

Listen, I'm as disappointed and bummed out by the recent downturn as anyone here but at the same time I don't feel the need to don a hair shirt and perform self-flagination over every little negative detail until the team starts winning again. That's just ridiculous
What part of "PRE" do you not understand?  
dguy901 : 8/20/2014 11:13 am : link
How could you possibly know the capabilities of each player until they have been on the field in combinations with other personnel? Everyone wants their team to play flawlessly thru pre and regular season but, the preseason is to play personnel to see how well they perform and, yes, allow the starters to work the rust off in limited reps. With so many new players who could be starters on the O-line, the coaches need to see all in game situations against starting caliber defenses to determine the best players overall. It has been pointed out numerous times, the first team offense has been running basic plays, and not game-planned. There are 2 more preseason games to see. Relax, no need to get all riled up over preseason, at least wait for the end of the 1st regular season game to get all depressed and negative!
RE: RE: Kirwan has been saying for over a year and a half....  
Racer : 8/20/2014 11:18 am : link
In comment 11815948 Semipro Lineman said:
Quote:

This is the same Kirwan who thinks that Jay Bromley is going to be L. Josephs' replacement instead of Hankins? He may be a good national writer, that doesn't mean he is wired in or has great contacts on this team.

Also the idea that Beatty didn't play well other than last season is as silly as saying Nicks wasn't really a no. one receiver before 2013. The idea that it has already been determined that the Giants can't protect Eli is also just as silly.

Listen, I'm as disappointed and bummed out by the recent downturn as anyone here but at the same time I don't feel the need to don a hair shirt and perform self-flagination over every little negative detail until the team starts winning again. That's just ridiculous


I'm not pushing the panic button until the regular season, either. I can remember Jumbo Elliot looking in the preseason like he was in cement boots and that ending quick once the live bullets started to fly. Kirwan's son played college ball and is a huge Giants fan, so like you I'm a little puzzled by Bromley vs. Hankins 'misses' like that, but you have to know Kirwan gets a little giddy about guys that play well at the senior bowl and interviewed well with him.

PK is a consensus gatherer. He raises a couple of hundred topics a year in his CBS column, and he talks to a ton of people when he gets an idea, and talks about the consensus on the radio as well as in his column. He had Bob Wylie watch film of last year's Carolina game to figure out what the hell happened to the o-line. Wylie said definitively that Beatty cannot handle a good pass rusher 1v1 on a consistent basis.

At the end of the season last year, PK again had people telling him the offensive struggles were the product of terrible o-line play and an offensive scheme that was starting to get predictable by formation and personnel group, and opinions were mixed on which was worse. They certainly tried to address both in the offseason.

I'm with Eric and the people who think Eli is starting to anticipate the pocket breaking down because the protection has been so bad for so long, so based on all the information, it's tough to be optimistic, isn't it?
they should  
BigBlueCane : 8/20/2014 11:20 am : link
have been drafting OL high every year since 2007.
RE: they should  
jeff57 : 8/20/2014 11:27 am : link
In comment 11816020 BigBlueCane said:
Quote:
have been drafting OL high every year since 2007.


Next year's draft has another bumper crop of OT. Ogbuhei, Peat, Erving, Collins and Scherff should all be first rounders.
RE: Reese  
Giantology : 8/20/2014 11:30 am : link
In comment 11815649 SBlue46 said:
Quote:
Made mistake thinking beatty would be healthy
and he sucks anyway...plus draft a center when
we could have had 2 0r 3 ot....we have decent
depth at g and c...need ot....not sure Flaherty
is that good...boone trade is only good if beatty
is cut and he can play lL OT..


classic reese if he made any more
mistakes he would be president... imo
we could have had 7 ot if he drafted
all tackles... wh y cut beatty...trade him
for boone he can play IL OT or he can
play TE we dont have TE...grimble
still our best TE imo....
RE: they should  
Klaatu : 8/20/2014 11:43 am : link
In comment 11816020 BigBlueCane said:
Quote:
have been drafting OL high every year since 2007.


Better late than never.
What bigbluecane said.  
Red Dog : 8/20/2014 12:55 pm : link
And late may not better than never if Eli gets hurt again this year. That could destroy any realistic chance that this team will have to compete for another Lombardi Trophy for a long time.
As long as Reese  
BigBlueCane : 8/20/2014 3:59 pm : link
is the GM I would not put it past him to ignore the OL in favor of another useless CB.

no matter the year.
I don't understand what is so frigging hard about this  
Hunter : 8/20/2014 4:19 pm : link
Why is Schwartz on the left...he is a known quantity at RG. As is Pugh at RT. Why not AT LEAST have:

Walton, Schwartz, Pugh - on the RT

Go out and get Boone

Beatty, Boone - on the left

Now you have Richburg you can sub in at Center, either guard, and have time in practice to learn the LT spot if needed (that is if Brown can't get healthy and get better).

Granted I'm not an offensive coach, and I only know what I see on TV and read, but for fuck's sake, now IS the time to spend money on Boone. No change in scheme on the offense is going to work without the damn line blocking and right now they are not.
Okay, I'll admit...  
Dan in the Springs : 8/20/2014 4:30 pm : link
the idea of Schwartz at LG with Snee at RG bothered me, because I was hoping that Schwartz, proud owner of a new multi-million dollar contract after playing at RG, was going to be better at the RG position than Snee who had to take a significant paycut just to stay with the team.

Take Snee out of the picture, and then it becomes even more obvious to place Schwartz at RG.

So why hasn't he even had a single snap there?


I can think of only two reasons:
1. They want their strongest guard next to Beatty.
2. They want to give snaps to players at positions where they need development. (There are only three positions that Schwartz projects to play on opening day, LG, RG, and RT, and he's only getting reps at the two that he has the least experience in.)

Now, if we finish the preseason and we see Schwartz as the opening day LG, then I'm going with #1. If Schwartz gets slid over to the RG position by the time the season starts I'll go with #2.

I really cannot think of any other logical reasons, particularly after Coughlin's comments that they are playing everybody everywhere and trying out different combinations.
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