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NFT: Video Game Thread...What did everyone think of Watchdogs?

SicilianGMEN : 8/20/2014 2:58 pm
I have a ps4 and xb1 and bought watchdogs on day 1, 3 months ago and am just now getting around to just about beating it. The first couple of weeks I mainly just did side missions but those got old and now I'm just trying to hurry up and beat it so I can get to my 2 new pickups of the week...Diablo 3 and The Last of Us.....Anyone pick up Diablo 3 for ps4 yet?
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I will probably get Watch_Dogs at some point  
Audible : 8/21/2014 2:54 pm : link
Not anytime soon, though - I have too many other games to play, and since I've waited for GTA V to come out on PS4, Watch_Dogs isn't even the next open-world game on my list. But waiting until I can get the game for $15 or $20 means I won't feel the need to hold it to an unrealistic standard. I know getting Sleeping Dogs (wow, dogs everywhere!) at a discount helped me enjoy the game for what it was without getting hung up on the relatively short campaign length.

In comment 11817953 Jan in DC said:
Quote:
Anyone else picking up Destiny for the PS4?


Yes. Also not Day 1, and I'm not part of the shooter demographic by any definition, but I would like to have a shooter to play at some point. It's a pity Destiny isn't designed to support couch co-op, because it looks like the rare non-sports game I could convince my brother to play in co-op (he doesn't have a PS4, so online co-op is out).

Now for my usual thought-dumping exercise about stuff I'm playing blah blah blah...

- Radiant Historia (DS): I'm about 40% of the way through the plot. Took a short break from the game because I was experiencing some RPG fatigue, but I don't like to let any RPG sit for more than two weeks, so I'll probably give the game another spin in the next few days. I really like the narrative structure - I'm a sucker for time travel, so I'm not surprised.

- Final Fantasy X HD (PS3): Beat Yunalesca in Zanarkand, currently collecting the optional aeons before I head off to the final stages of the main plot. FFX is my favorite game of all time (don't hate!), but I'm reminded of how much I dislike its side content. I've never played the International version before, so this is my first time encountering the Dark Aeons - I find that I have no interest in grinding to defeat them all, unless I can get Yojimbo to one-shot them. Part of this is getting older - I'm sure when I was 12 years old and had no responsibility outside of school and chores, I would have no problem spending 80-100 hours maxing out abilities and devising strategies to beat every optional enemy in the game - but part of it is just poor sidequest design. I still adore the main storyline though, stilted voice acting and all, and the battle system remains one of my favorites.

Crusader Kings II (PC): My current favorite strategy title... I think this counts as grand strategy? Yeah, let's go with that. I'm coming up on 200 hours played now. My previous game, I started governing a single county in Ireland (I think I covered this in the last video game thread?), acquired most of France/Germany/Italy through conquest, inadvertently acquired Hispania by marrying my way into crusade spoils, used a combination of betrothal and targeted assassinations to inherit the Byzantine Empire, and eventually acquired the remaining lands in North Africa and the Middle East to reform the true Roman Empire. Not bad for 600 years of work. Of course I realized halfway through that none of the Steam achievements would pop without playing in Ironman mode. This time I'm trying for a similar result, but from a harder spot - starting as a count in France, trying to acquire the throne and then change the succession laws to make it harder to do so, then carefully expand and play rivals off each other until my realm is large enough and stable enough to start bullying neighbors.

I need a second game to play on PC. Right now I'm leading towards Endless Space - I would dive back into Civilization V, but I know I'll do that in a few months anyway when Beyond Earth comes out, and Endless Space has the advantage of being a drastically different game than Crusader Kings, both in terms of setting and in terms of overall strategy/gameplay.

Speaking of Civ V, 2K is having a sale on Steam right now. The base game is 75% off (from a $30 MSRP, so that's 7.50 USD), as are all the expansions, and the complete set is also sold in a bundle for less than $20. It's not a perfect game by any means, but if anyone in the thread has (somehow) not played a Civilization game before, this is one of the best times to dive in.
I'm interested in Destiny,  
Curtis in VA : 8/21/2014 3:10 pm : link
but want to hear the reviews first.
Jan - I'm getting Destiny for PS4  
Lawyer in NYC : 8/21/2014 3:48 pm : link
Add me - lawyergamer74 in PSN. I'm super-excited for that game, to the point that I really don't feel like picking up something else before 9.9.14.

Curtis - I was in your boat, but I played both the Alpha and the Beta. It's going to be a great game. The beta was almost a ready-made product already, and more polished gameplay and graphics wise than half of the games already in release. The full game is going to be much larger and with a ton more depth and content.
Crusader Kings is absolutely grand strategy.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 8/21/2014 3:50 pm : link
And it's really hard for me to play. I still don't get the mechanics. They really do punish sustained war and conquering.
Silent Hills  
TXRabbit : 8/21/2014 3:58 pm : link
(Yes, another one) has a playable preview that looks totally sick
RE: Jan - I'm getting Destiny for PS4  
Jan in DC : 8/21/2014 4:29 pm : link
In comment 11818225 Lawyer in NYC said:
Quote:
Add me - lawyergamer74 in PSN. I'm super-excited for that game, to the point that I really don't feel like picking up something else before 9.9.14.

Curtis - I was in your boat, but I played both the Alpha and the Beta. It's going to be a great game. The beta was almost a ready-made product already, and more polished gameplay and graphics wise than half of the games already in release. The full game is going to be much larger and with a ton more depth and content.


I'll invite you tonight. I'm Blaan PSN.

I'm not great with shooters, so I'll probably be doing a lot of the co-op events, and less of the PvP.
I'll be getting Destiny on the PS4  
illmatic : 8/21/2014 4:48 pm : link
I didn't play a ton of the alpha/beta but I didn't want to spoil too much of it for myself. But I played enough to know that it will be a very solid game, at worst. My only question about the game is if the story will be decent and how big the worlds are. But we'll see. It should be fun regardless. If any PS4 users want to add me, my PSN is illmatic24
Audible  
SwirlingEddie : 8/21/2014 5:08 pm : link
If you enjoy strategy, and especially the 4x kind, then I can't recommend enough Distant Worlds - Universe. I am utterly enthralled by this game (on PC of course).
I just got into Paths of Exile  
santacruzom : 8/21/2014 5:11 pm : link
for a totally free to play game, it's pretty freakin fun.
RE: Crusader Kings is absolutely grand strategy.  
Audible : 8/21/2014 5:21 pm : link
In comment 11818229 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
And it's really hard for me to play. I still don't get the mechanics. They really do punish sustained war and conquering.


It's a really curious game for so many reasons, and unlike any strategy game I've ever played, it's extremely character-driven. I think that's probably part of what gives the game its unusual learning curve.

It can be argued that experience in other grand strategy games actually makes the earlier part of the CK2 learning curve steeper than if you had never played a strategy game before, because with rare exceptions (e.g. you already own most of the map), you can't really snowball in CK2. In a lot of strategy games, there's a tipping point where, once you've acquired a certain amount of "power", to use a generic term, you can acquire increasingly large amounts of power at increasingly high rates without a corresponding increase in risk. In CK2, once your realm expands beyond a couple of duchies, acquiring more land really entails giving direct control of that land to someone (your vassal) who you presume has interests aligned with yours, and then hoping that said vassal and his descendants don't get disgruntled, or ambitious, or go batshit insane, etc. So every increase in power comes with a corresponding increase in risk, which is almost never perceived as such when territory is acquired, but usually bubbles under the surface until your character dies and your unprepared heir has to deal with three simultaneous revolts among the vassals who you thought were loyal to you - because they WERE loyal to you back when "you" was the previous character, but they don't owe a damn thing to your current ruler-character. The rapidity with which your situation can become precarious is something I haven't seen in other strategy games.

If you're looking for some general guidelines, there are way more tips I can offer than anyone would want to read in this thread, but a few quick thoughts:

- The most important thing to remember about any character you play as is that that character is going to die, probably at a really inconvenient time, almost certainly with no prior warning. Assume that every vassal you have will try to take your place if he thinks he can - you would do the same to your liege if you could, wouldn't you? However, your vassals will generally not revolt, and will be happy to defend you against other vassals, if they have enough reason to trust that your new character is actually worthy of his place. There are two good ways to accomplish this. One is to make sure your heir has as many good traits as possible - this is best done by educating your heir yourself, which means not granting him land until he comes of age. The second is to make sure he has as much prestige as possible when he assumes your place, which means once he comes of age you should immediately marry/betroth him, then land him so he can begin accumulating prestige.

- Every once in a while you will be stuck with a weak player character who you are unable to disqualify from the succession - an unlucky genetic dice roll, a premature death, any number of other reasons. If your realm is of sufficient size, the internal threats in your realm will probably have more manpower than you do alone. The best insurance in these scenarios is to keep cash on hand at all times, at least enough to buy off one or two large vassals if you sense a threat. Usually once you survive the first three or four years after a succession, the revolt threat will drop significantly enough that you can shift resources towards your other plans.

- If you have a liege, your primary objective should always be to unseat your liege, or to move towards that objective. If you are the liege, your primary objective should be to create a more stable realm first and THEN expand it once you have stability. Given everything I said before about how succession creates the biggest risks, the best change you can make long-term is to change the succession laws (which is easier when you don't have a million vassals). I've found that the most stable succession setup is agnatic primogeniture: agnatic because female rulers, fun though they are to play as, have giant enormous targets on their backs; primogeniture because it allows you to identify the heir earlier in your character's reign, gives you more time to build that heir up, means the heir is almost always younger than you (and therefore unlikely to die before you and waste all your careful planning), and avoids the problems caused by elective systems (e.g. vassals voting for an heir that isn't your next playable character). In order to change to primogeniture you need high crown authority - get to that as soon as possible after becoming liege. High crown authority also prevents you from losing portions of your realm through inheritance, which is a nice perk.

- If you are stable and want to start a war, the best war to start is usually either against the obvious low-hanging fruit (independent counties or duchies that you can conquer quickly), or the largest war you can reasonably expect to win. By largest I don't mean against the largest opponent, I mean with the largest stakes. Don't start a war for one county against a neighbor with 50 counties - in most cases you have to wait for 10 years for the ensuing truce to expire, and you've created a large antagonist on your border for minimal gain. If you have to fight a large enemy, try to accumulate as many of your own claims against that enemy as possible and then press them all at once in one war.

- If you're trying to accumulate territory without fighting, the best way to do so is marriage, but most lieges won't voluntarily marry away territory. There are ways around this, though. One example - betroth/marry your heir to the second or third candidate for a neighboring territory, then engineer assassinations as necessary until your heir is married to their heir. A couple of inheritances later, the territory is yours. This also hints at a secondary reason for favoring agnatic succession - if your daughters can't inherit the throne, they can be married off patrilineally to create alliances with no risk of somehow becoming your heir down the line.

That's enough word vomit for now - if you have a question about a specific scenario let me know, it's always fun to hear about other people's games.

In comment 11818374 SwirlingEddie said:
Quote:
If you enjoy strategy, and especially the 4x kind, then I can't recommend enough Distant Worlds - Universe. I am utterly enthralled by this game (on PC of course).


Thanks for the recommendation. I'll check out a Let's Play or something to get a better feel for Distant Worlds - I see this game is rarely on sale, and I have so many unplayed games that it's hard for me to justify a full-price purchase more than once or twice a year, but a good 4X game is as good a gaming investment as I can think of.
RE: RE: Crusader Kings is absolutely grand strategy.  
santacruzom : 8/21/2014 5:30 pm : link
In comment 11818393 Audible said:
Quote:
In comment 11818229 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


And it's really hard for me to play. I still don't get the mechanics. They really do punish sustained war and conquering.



It's a really curious game for so many reasons, and unlike any strategy game I've ever played, it's extremely character-driven. I think that's probably part of what gives the game its unusual learning curve...


I know nothing of CK2, but you've just made it sound really intriguing. My wife curses you.
Distant Worlds  
SwirlingEddie : 8/21/2014 5:55 pm : link
You're right, it's expensive and rarely on sale, but its one of those strategy games where the dollar per hour value is very high if you make the investment.

Das24680 and Larry Monte have some excellent Let's Plays. There's a new Star Wars mod available (if that appeals to you) that Das has just started a series with. He also has a great Intro/How-To series. Anyway, a game I'm always happy to support and recommend. I'll check out some CK LPs in return. Enjoy!
RE: RE: RE: Crusader Kings is absolutely grand strategy.  
Audible : 8/21/2014 6:09 pm : link
In comment 11818406 santacruzom said:
Quote:
I know nothing of CK2, but you've just made it sound really intriguing. My wife curses you.


Intriguing is definitely the word... really it's a game designed to make you paranoid, because everyone is out to get you, and I mean everyone. Your vassals are out to get you all the time, because they want what you have. Your liege, if you have one, is out to get you because he knows you'll knock him off given the chance. The family members you don't designate as heir will resent you for leaving them out of the inheritance. Even your heir will eventually get tired of you and try to knock you off if you live long enough. And that's before you even start to consider all the rulers of other realms, who are perfectly happy to let you do your own thing until they sense weakness, at which point they will grab whatever they can get. Of course, you, as the player, eventually learn these lessons and learn to prepare yourself for any reasonable series of events, at which point the game will find the one thing you didn't prepare for, and that one thing is the thing that will happen.

At first it can be really frustrating, because there is almost always going to be someone who straight-up hates your guts no matter how well you may be doing with your current character, and even if everyone does like your character, at some point he will die and you have to earn respect with a new character all over again... but eventually you learn that it's not necessary to have every character like you - you can settle for making sure that enough of them like you to enable whatever hare-brained scheme you have cooking.

And it's really refreshing to play a game with no win condition. It just throws you into a historical situation and says, do whatever you think you can get away with. You want to play as a giant empire? You can start as one, or try to build one yourself. You want to play as a vassal? You can do that as part of a loose confederation of states (early France or any of the Germanic confederations), or as part of a more centralized kingdom or empire. With the expansions you can play as the Norse, or as a Muslim caliph, or an Indian raja, or even attempt to create a Jewish kingdom of Jerusalem.

It's awesome.

(I promise, I am not a Paradox employee. It's just a really good game.)
RE: I just got into Paths of Exile  
giantsfaninphilly : 8/21/2014 6:43 pm : link
In comment 11818382 santacruzom said:
Quote:
for a totally free to play game, it's pretty freakin fun.


I played POE for a few months at the end of Beta and then dropped it after a couple months of the full release. I got tired of the constant skill tree resets and the random number generator. It's fine when you're at the lower levels, but it gets old trying to get decent drops to maintain any kind of power as you progress.
Of Paradox games  
Ten Ton Hammer : 8/22/2014 12:05 am : link
I actually really liked Europa Universalis 2, which is less RPG-driven than CK.

Something about picking a minor player in world history and re-shaping it in your image is interesting to me.

In my last alternate reality Portugal beat the rest of the world to North America and became a true world power, dominating trade from the Mississippi to the Atlantic, through the Caribbean, and over the Western Iberian Coast.

Africa was too much of a chore to conquer, but we were making inroads to Indonesia before I called it quits.
RE: Of Paradox games  
Audible : 8/22/2014 8:46 am : link
In comment 11818700 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
I actually really liked Europa Universalis 2, which is less RPG-driven than CK.

Something about picking a minor player in world history and re-shaping it in your image is interesting to me.

In my last alternate reality Portugal beat the rest of the world to North America and became a true world power, dominating trade from the Mississippi to the Atlantic, through the Caribbean, and over the Western Iberian Coast.

Africa was too much of a chore to conquer, but we were making inroads to Indonesia before I called it quits.


I have EU4 but haven't played it yet. Paradox also sells a save converter as DLC, that allows a completed game of CK2 to be imported into EU4.
RE: RE: Of Paradox games  
Ten Ton Hammer : 8/22/2014 12:32 pm : link
In comment 11818846 Audible said:
Quote:
In comment 11818700 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


I actually really liked Europa Universalis 2, which is less RPG-driven than CK.

Something about picking a minor player in world history and re-shaping it in your image is interesting to me.

In my last alternate reality Portugal beat the rest of the world to North America and became a true world power, dominating trade from the Mississippi to the Atlantic, through the Caribbean, and over the Western Iberian Coast.

Africa was too much of a chore to conquer, but we were making inroads to Indonesia before I called it quits.



I have EU4 but haven't played it yet. Paradox also sells a save converter as DLC, that allows a completed game of CK2 to be imported into EU4.


Given that you really like CK's character-building mechanics, you might find EU4 to be missing something. It's sort of like a different take on the same dish.
Anyone play the Song of Ice and Fire mod for CK2?  
Giants Fan in Steelers Land : 8/22/2014 12:36 pm : link
My friend is obsessed
Nice fan trailer for DA Inquisition.  
Curtis in VA : 8/22/2014 3:45 pm : link
World on Fire has been used a lot over the past couple years but its still pretty cool. Hard not to get excited for this game.

Please don't let me down, Bioware.
link - ( New Window )
RE: RE: RE: Of Paradox games  
Audible : 8/22/2014 3:59 pm : link
In comment 11819346 Ten Ton Hammer said:Given that you really like CK's character-building mechanics, you might find EU4 to be missing something. It's sort of like a different take on the same dish. [/quote]

Maybe. CK2 took about 5-10 hours to actually click for me, though. My first playthrough I chose a duchy in Spain, tried to start a war I couldn't actually win, and got frustrated really quick. I didn't really learn how to play until I started a new game in Ireland, where I could start 'safe' wars against individual counties and build up a base of power without having to worry about existential threats.

I think what I like about CK2 isn't so much that it's character-driven - well, no, I do like that it's character-driven, that's just not what I consider to be the characteristic that makes it uniquely compelling. It's that the power your character wields on his own is rarely enough to survive. Smaller realms almost always need one larger friendly ally in order to survive long-term; rulers of larger realms only have personal control of a small percentage of their armies and serve at the behest of their vassals. This is true even in highly centralized empires with huge personal retinues - the last time I tried to create the Roman Empire, I was maybe 95% of the way there when one untimely death and an incompetent regent triggered the mass revolt of nearly half my empire, which took the better part of a decade to finally tamp down. I crushed the revolt only because I had enough gold on hand to pay off two or three vassal dukes with particularly large armies, and those armies ended up turning the tide, not the troops from my own holdings.

EU4 obviously isn't exactly the same game, but I know (from reading, not from in-game experience) that there are a number of mechanics in place to prevent players from gaining a slight advantage and subsequently snowballing their way to world domination. I may never get around to playing EU4 because CK2 is so dang fun, but I think I'll probably like it.
Audible  
Jim in Scranton : 8/22/2014 4:39 pm : link
I always seem to have a problem with succession. How do you hand out lands? Do you hand them out to your vassals or your next in line, or even his sibling? I usually don't hand land to the sibling because that will cause problems down the road. Well anyway, even when i do this and when the king dies, the land is divided and I usually have a hard time getting it back.
RE: Audible  
Audible : 8/23/2014 11:36 pm : link
In comment 11819871 Jim in Scranton said:
Quote:
I always seem to have a problem with succession. How do you hand out lands? Do you hand them out to your vassals or your next in line, or even his sibling? I usually don't hand land to the sibling because that will cause problems down the road. Well anyway, even when i do this and when the king dies, the land is divided and I usually have a hard time getting it back.


If your land is divided, that sounds like your realm is using gavelkind succession, which is going to split your realm up among up to eligible heirs when your character dies. In practice this will make it very hard to grow your realm beyond a certain size. If all of your holdings are subordinate to a single title - e.g. you are the King of Ireland, and all of your holdings and all of your vassals' holdings are subordinate to whoever holds the kingdom - you will not encounter succession issues, but this is rarely the case.

My recommendation is to, if you can, get out of gavelkind succession as quickly as possible. If you're playing as a Norse character (which requires The Old Gods expansion) I think you have to use gavelkind, but anyone else should be able to move away from gavelkind. I prefer primogeniture succession for reasons I articulated earlier, but any option that doesn't divide your holdings and titles among multiple heirs will work, including ultimogeniture, seniority, tanistry, elective successsion, etc.

In re: avoiding succession crises, the best way to do this is to identify who you want your heir to be, build them up as soon as said heir is capable (land them once your heir is educated, of age and married), and withhold power and prestige from anyone else in your direct line of succession.

As for your vassals, one thing I strongly recommend is not to be tied too strongly to your initial holdings just because they may be more developed than lands you acquire through conquest. You don't want to hold more than two duchies because that will upset your vassals, so I've found the best strategy is to identify the two most powerful duchies within your realm, hold those two duchies, and then hold as many counties within those duchies as you can. This means that no individual duke will be able to rival your power without holding more than two duchies of his own, and in those instances it should be easy for you to identify the threat, get enough of your other vassals on your side, and then antagonize the 'rival' vassal until he revolts, at which point you crush the revolt and redistribute one of his duchies to a new, docile vassal (preferable traits: young, holds only one county, has the 'content' trait, is of my family, is same culture).

If the problem you're having is post-succession revolts orchestrated by several vassals, I would pay close attention to the reason why your vassals are dissatisfied. I am loathe to lower crown authority because high crown authority makes for a much more manageable empire, but there are plenty of other things that can lead to angry vassals. Holding a county in someone else's duchy, or having a count bypass his de jure duke to swear fealty directly to you are two things that incur large reputation hits. Short-term, faction risk can be mitigated by judicious use of your chancellor and spymaster, but as a general rule it is advisable to make at least some effort to keep your realm's hierarchy in line with de jure.

Hope that helps :)
well, I downloaded the CK2 demo  
santacruzom : 8/26/2014 7:00 pm : link
tried out a few of its tutorials (most of which are incredibly sparse or buggy) started up a game, and... I have no idea what to do.
RE: well, I downloaded the CK2 demo  
Audible : 8/27/2014 12:08 pm : link
In comment 11826709 santacruzom said:
Quote:
tried out a few of its tutorials (most of which are incredibly sparse or buggy) started up a game, and... I have no idea what to do.


I'm assuming you've never played a Paradox game before (since CK and Europa Universalis are generally considered the 'easier' Paradox games to learn, and you sound lost).

The best way to learn one of these games, in theory, is to have someone actually teach you the mechanics (if there was some sort of shared-screen coop mode that would be amazing). Barring that, I think the best way to learn the game is via a Let's Play video series, which is how I learned the game mechanics. The particular series I watched was this one - I found the caster to be occasionally annoying, and in retrospect he makes a bunch of decisions that I would consider to be sub-optimal, but he does a pretty good job of explaining all of the elementary mechanics in 'vanilla' CK2. It also helps that he chooses to start as the King of Scotland, which has a good starting point for a first playthrough - a relatively safe place to learn the game mechanics, but not so safe as to become mindnumbingly boring.

Or you could value the relationships you have with family and friends and delete the demo :)
I had to try CK2, as well...  
UAGiant : 8/27/2014 10:01 pm : link
As the King of Poland, I somehow angered the Scots after putting a hit out on a son of a Vassal that was really annoying me (don't worry - it failed and I just jailed him instead) and they came looking for a fight. I won, but not before over extending my forces and apparently calling too many people up and leaving them in the service too long.

People really didn't like that whole episode too much, even after I threw a lot of summer festivals - which caused the church to become really upset at me because there was juggling (and juggling is apparently not something the Catholics look highly upon, at least not in 1066).

I had a disappointing marriage (apparently I'm too modest and should have gone for the German chick), forgot to have my daughters educated (no sons...) and then got sickly and had my character beg to die, only to get better shortly thereafter - with Poland caving in on itself. A lot of people on my council started to quit, especially after they were nearly killed collecting taxes. At this point, I quietly walked away and stared vacantly to the distance for 10-15 minutes.

Yet I want to play it again, if for no other reason than to see if I can at least go a game without putting an assassination attempt out on a child whose father got chirpy.
Yeah, CK2 is awesome,  
Enoch : 8/27/2014 10:40 pm : link
but I do take long breaks from it. Once you get the hang of "optimal" play, it becomes relatively easy to expand, and the bulk of the game is waiting for the RNG to fire on random events. Which is almost as boring as it sounds.

It is most fun (IMO) when you balance "optimal" play with role-playing-- e.g., no assassinations when your present character is devout; executing prisoners when your present character is wroth, etc.

I'm still mucking around with Divinity: Original Sin, but it's getting a little tiresome. The novelty of the core mechanics has worn a bit thin, and the narrative is not nearly interesting enough to keep me going.

I also have the backer beta for Pillars of Eternity, but I'm waiting for a patch or two before I do more than explore character creation options. It's a rather rough beta at present, so I'm waiting until stuff like the pathfinding and inventory bugs are squished before putting serious time into it.
RE: RE: well, I downloaded the CK2 demo  
santacruzom : 8/30/2014 12:38 pm : link
In comment 11827569 Audible said:
Quote:
In comment 11826709 santacruzom said:


Quote:


tried out a few of its tutorials (most of which are incredibly sparse or buggy) started up a game, and... I have no idea what to do.



I'm assuming you've never played a Paradox game before (since CK and Europa Universalis are generally considered the 'easier' Paradox games to learn, and you sound lost).

The best way to learn one of these games, in theory, is to have someone actually teach you the mechanics (if there was some sort of shared-screen coop mode that would be amazing). Barring that, I think the best way to learn the game is via a Let's Play video series, which is how I learned the game mechanics. The particular series I watched was this one - I found the caster to be occasionally annoying, and in retrospect he makes a bunch of decisions that I would consider to be sub-optimal, but he does a pretty good job of explaining all of the elementary mechanics in 'vanilla' CK2. It also helps that he chooses to start as the King of Scotland, which has a good starting point for a first playthrough - a relatively safe place to learn the game mechanics, but not so safe as to become mindnumbingly boring.

Or you could value the relationships you have with family and friends and delete the demo :)


I haven't had a chance to watch the video yet, but reading a few brief CK Wiki articles helped me to at least figure out where to start. I've been playing as a King of an territory in southern Ireland, recommended as a good place to learn some of the basics. I can definitely see the appeal of the game but have so much more to learn -- I can't quite manage to earn any money, I don't quite know how the intrigue system works just yet, and the UI still feels clumsy to me (for example, trying to figure out who in my court is good at what is a mouse-clicking ordeal).

But I see the promise, definitely.
so here are a few questions:  
santacruzom : 9/1/2014 11:29 am : link
How/where do I check and change my Crown Authority? I've read about it but the screenshots I've seen don't reflect what I see in the Laws screen, which contains nothing about Crown Authority.

Also -- and I know this is more general -- how do I gain control of a territory in such a way as to grant it as land to someone of my choosing? Every time I win a siege, the land just goes to a vassal (or his heir, if it was the vassal I defeated in combat). And is earning money supposed to be so freaking slow? I see that buying a holding costs 750 gold. At my pace, that's about 35 years of game time if I do no other spending.
RE: so here are a few questions:  
Enoch : 9/1/2014 12:50 pm : link
In comment 11835841 santacruzom said:
Quote:
How/where do I check and change my Crown Authority? I've read about it but the screenshots I've seen don't reflect what I see in the Laws screen, which contains nothing about Crown Authority.

Also -- and I know this is more general -- how do I gain control of a territory in such a way as to grant it as land to someone of my choosing? Every time I win a siege, the land just goes to a vassal (or his heir, if it was the vassal I defeated in combat). And is earning money supposed to be so freaking slow? I see that buying a holding costs 750 gold. At my pace, that's about 35 years of game time if I do no other spending.


IIRC, if you're not a King-level ruler (a "Petty King" which is a term for an independent Duke), and if your demesne is in a de jure kingdom that has not been established (which is the case if you're starting as a Count/Duke in Ireland), you won't get see "crown authority."

What you gain when you win war depends on your casus belli-- the legal justification under which you went to war. If you're pushing your own claim on a title (e.g., because you had your Chancellor forge a claim, or because you inherited it somehow), it becomes part of your demesne that you personally control and can hand out to whoever you wish.

Other casus bellis, though, have different effects. For example, if you're a Duke and you're warring based on the fact that an independent county is part of your de jure Duchy, if you win, the same Count/Earl stays in control of that county, but is your vassal. If you declare war on somebody just because he was excommunicated, the win condition is that the excommunicated leader steps aside and his/her heir takes the title. If you're pushing the claim of somebody else for a title, that person gets the title, and they may or may not be your vassal afterwards. (It depends-- it must be a lower-level title than the one you hold, and the claimant must either already be your vassal or be a member of your dynasty.)

There are other examples. It should tell you what the Win/Lose/WhitePeace results will be in the diplomacy interface when you declare war. The best kind of wars for gaining personal demesne are often Holy Wars. You declare war on a heathen ruler of a whole Duchy, and if you win, every title in that duchy is yours to keep or bequeath as you wish. (The 1066 start as one of the Jimena kingdoms in Spain is great for this.)

When you only control a couple counties, money comes in slowly. Don't think about establishing new holdings until you control whole Kingdoms/Empires. Spending early on should be on troop support, mercenaries for emergencies, and important upgrades to your personal demesne. The priority upgrades are the "Castle Town" line (for better income) and the high-yield troop-producing improvements (Militia something or other?).
Edit:  
Enoch : 9/1/2014 12:52 pm : link
that first parenthetical came out weird. I meant to say that Petty Kings won't see crown authority if they're in a de jure Kingdom that hasn't been established.
Anyone play Diablo3 on ps4?  
eli4life : 9/1/2014 3:05 pm : link
Was thinking of picking it uptoday
thanks Enoch  
santacruzom : 9/1/2014 3:15 pm : link
Very useful info that definitely pertains to me, as I'm playing a petty king character.

It's going to take a long time for me to become King of Ireland, isn't it?
santacruzom  
Audible : 9/1/2014 7:36 pm : link
Sorry for taking so long to respond - was away from keyboard all weekend. All of Enoch's answers are correct, but just to fill in a bit more where I can:

I think dukes (a petty king is a duke, just by a different name because of your culture) with no liege automatically default to Limited Crown Authority with no way to change it. This is suggested by the behavior when a duke creates a new kingdom - if you are a duke in Ireland and create the Kingdom of Ireland, it will start with Limited Crown Authority, and you will have to initiate a referendum to raise or lower crown authority from there. This is also supported by the behavior you see as an independent duke - your vassals can fight each other (so you don't have Medium), you can revoke titles (so you don't have Autonomous Vassals), etc.

Your character will only inherit land via conquest in three scenarios: if he presses his own claim, if he wins a Holy War (you can easily pick up entire duchies this way), or if he is the primary military contributor to a successful Crusade (the Pope awards conquered lands based on who he deems to be responsible for the campaign's success). In general, though, I consider it worthwhile to press other people's claims if I don't have a claim of my own to press, as long as the claim will become part of my territory and the war will not result in the claimant being stronger than me. If you are pressing a vassal's claim, make sure that the title in question is of lesser rank than your own primary title (otherwise he will become independent in victory and your realm may actually get smaller!), and whenever possible, try to fight those wars using levies from the claimant, as that will make him temporarily weaker relative to you.

Like Enoch said, Castle Town is the most important upgrade, because it pays for itself the fastest, especially early in the game. Keep taxes low on your feudal lords and high on your city lords; keep levies low on your city lords and high on your feudal lords. For clergy, I generally keep taxes low because high taxes tends to result in clergy who prefer the pope to me and therefore pay taxes to the pope instead of me.

When you do start getting enough of a cash flow to think about saving up for holdings, city holdings are generally the best, because they generate the most money and you can use that money for almost anything you might need. If you get as far as building a new city holding and assigning it to a new vassal, it's usually worthwhile to pay for one gold-generating improvement in that holding to give your new vassal some cash flow - that cash flow eventually trickles back to you, and the improvement will also allow the vassal to accrue more gold faster and re-invest those profits in the holding... the snowball effect kind of explains itself. In the very late game, that initial investment may not have enough time to pay off, but in most situations that investment is money well spent.

If you're playing as an Irish lord and you're already a duke, it shouldn't take too long to become King of Ireland. You only need seven of the thirteen counties to be part of your realm in order to create the kingdom. If you need a tool besides conquest, don't forget that you can marry lands into your realm - in particular, look for counties or duchies where an unmarried daughter is named in the line of succession (hover over the county/duchy crest and it will show you the names of the next three heirs); when you find one, marry/betroth your heir to her, then assassinate whoever is necessary to ensure that she inherits the territory, and eventually your heir's son will inherit the territory.

In re: figuring out who in your court is good at what, here is the easiest way I know of. There is a button on the bottom right of the screen that allows you to search for a person (the icon looks like two people, it should be all the way at the bottom of the screen). Bring that search window open and you should see a list of people with attributes and traits, similar to what you see when you try to assign a council-member. This search tool allows you to set the range of the search - it can be across the entire world, within your realm, among your vassals, or limited to your court. You can click on any of the attributes to sort by that attribute (default sort is high-to-low, click again for low-to-high). The search box at the top lets you type in things you want to search for (a trait name, or a person's name, or a family name). The link at the bottom goes to a video showing how character search works. I don't think he shows the attribute sort, but I am sure the attribute sort works.
Character Search in CK2 - ( New Window )
a lot of helpful info there Audible  
santacruzom : 9/2/2014 2:11 am : link
I can't believe I didn't notice (or better put, wasn't exposed to it in the tutorial) the Character Search button in the lower right. That's an extremely helpful tool that definitely resolves an issue I was having.

Regarding claimants and titles and such, how can I know for sure that I hold a higher title/rank/whatever that a claimant whose claim I'm about to press? For example, I invited a claimant from Ossory to my court and then declared war via pressing his claim. When I won the war, Ossory simply turned into another territory outside of my own realm. Or whatever. I'm quickly learning that half the battle with CK2 is picking up its nomenclature.
RE: a lot of helpful info there Audible  
Enoch : 9/2/2014 9:17 am : link
In comment 11836766 santacruzom said:
Quote:
I can't believe I didn't notice (or better put, wasn't exposed to it in the tutorial) the Character Search button in the lower right. That's an extremely helpful tool that definitely resolves an issue I was having.

Regarding claimants and titles and such, how can I know for sure that I hold a higher title/rank/whatever that a claimant whose claim I'm about to press? For example, I invited a claimant from Ossory to my court and then declared war via pressing his claim. When I won the war, Ossory simply turned into another territory outside of my own realm. Or whatever. I'm quickly learning that half the battle with CK2 is picking up its nomenclature.


Feudal heirarchy:

Emperor > King > Duke (or "Petty King") > Count (or Earl) > Baron/Bishop/Mayor

A title holder's portrait has a border that tells you his top title tier. Barons have a bronze border, Counts silver, Dukes silver with blue decorations, Kings gold, and Emperors gold with purple decorations.

In order for a pressed claimant to become your vassal, you need 2 things. First it must be a lower-tier title. (This makes sense, because how can a King be a vassal to another King?) In your Ossory example, this condition is satisfied-- you're a Petty King (a Duke) pressing a claim for a Earldom. Second, the claimant has to have a reason to owe you fealty, either because he already does (by virtue of him holding another title in your realm) or because he is a member of your family.

When you get a claimant to come to your court, you can give him a title that is already in your realm, after which it is safe to press his claim. Alternately, if the claim is an inheritable one, you can marry him (matrilineally for male claimants) to a member of your family, wait until they have a kid, and kill him or wait for his death, at which point you'll have a member of your dynasty with the Claim you want.

Making progress through claimants is actually one of the more difficult ways to expand your realm. Early on, forged claims are probably the easiest way to go. Also useful is directly marrying your character or your heir to a claimant or heir to another title.

If you have the Old Gods expansion, playing as a Pagan opens up a lot more casus bellis. Norse leaders are never hurting for an excuse to invade their neighbors.
RE: a lot of helpful info there Audible  
Audible : 9/2/2014 9:19 am : link
In comment 11836766 santacruzom said:
Quote:
I can't believe I didn't notice (or better put, wasn't exposed to it in the tutorial) the Character Search button in the lower right. That's an extremely helpful tool that definitely resolves an issue I was having.

Regarding claimants and titles and such, how can I know for sure that I hold a higher title/rank/whatever that a claimant whose claim I'm about to press? For example, I invited a claimant from Ossory to my court and then declared war via pressing his claim. When I won the war, Ossory simply turned into another territory outside of my own realm. Or whatever. I'm quickly learning that half the battle with CK2 is picking up its nomenclature.


Ranks are Emperor > King > Duke / Petty King > Count > Baron (a Baron is someone who holds a castle in a county that is not the primary castle).

In re: Ossory, Ossory is a county, so if you are already a duke or a petty king, it is possible to press someone else's claim and acquire the territory that way. However, this is generally only true in three scenarios:

(1) You are the de jure liege of the territory in question. In this example, the County of Ossory is part of the Duchy of Leinster, so if you were already the Duke (Petty King) of Leinster, you could press a claim for County of Ossory and the claimant would become your vassal.

(2) The claim belongs to someone who is already your vassal. For example, if the claim belonged to the Count of Munster, and you are already the liege of that count, when you successfully press his claim, the Count of Munster will also become Count of Ossory, with you remaining his liege.

(3) The claimant is of your dynasty. This is easy to tell because it is indicated by the blood droplet next to the character's portrait.

Again, the overriding assumption for all three of the above cases is that you already hold a higher-rank title than what you are pressing. If we go back to example (2), if you instead change the scenario so that you are pressing the Count of Munster's claim for the entire Duchy of Leinster, and you yourself are only a Duke (Petty King), if the war is successful the Count will become a Duke - but since that makes him equal rank to you, he will become independent and take any of his holdings/vassals along with him, which means the County of Munster will actually be removed from your realm.

This is admittedly one of the trickier parts of CK2 to get a handle on. On my first couple playthroughs I probably initiated a half-dozen wars that did absolutely nothing to increase the size of my realm. But if you just keep a few rules in mind you should be able to avoid this the vast majority of the time:

- Pressing your own claim is always 'safe' (the territory will end up in your realm), so try and acquire claims for yourself (through your Chancellor, through marriage, etc.)
- Pressing your own de jure claim or a vassal's de jure claim is always safe.
- Never press a claim for someone else if it's equal to your current title (e.g. Dukes (Petty Kings) only push for counties, Kings only push for counties/duchies, etc.).
- Never press a claim for an unlanded courtier who isn't of your dynasty.
You know,  
Enoch : 9/2/2014 9:35 am : link
I haven't actually tried the ol' auBrian challenge in a long time. Several patches ago, it was considered feasible to established the Kingdom of Ireland within a generation or so of the 1066 start. But I suspect that the changes to Duchy creation/usurpation and the large increase in levy support costs make that a lot harder. It used to be that controlling 50% of a de jure Duchy's counties was sufficient to establish or usurp that Duchy, which was great in Ireland because it has, I think, three 2-county Duchies. But that was patched up to 51% a little while ago.
I just finished The Last of Us over the weekend.  
Curtis in VA : 9/2/2014 9:51 am : link
Really enjoyed it. Great story. Beautiful looking game on the PS4. Character development was excellent. I think Ellie is probably one of my favorite video game characters now.

I didn't want it to end.
Watching a friend play Sims 4 on Twitch  
Ten Ton Hammer : 9/2/2014 4:04 pm : link
it actually looks really, really good. Probably digital download it tonight. Been watching the stream for hours.
Intrigue  
Jim in Scranton : 9/5/2014 9:11 pm : link
is something that really needs a lot of attention in CK2. I have used some really good advice here and the game is a lot more fun. I decided to play with León again and tried this differently this time. I ended up kicking out that Arabs out and decided to head south and take over more lands and head east. Militarily this has not been difficult, but I am spending more time using intrigue and plotting. Seems like it's much more easier playing with a smaller country and building them up from there, but that's not a lot of fun. My goal was to go eastward all the way to Israel and use my save for Europa Universalis, but not sure how I will get through 200 more year of this.
yeah, I've made quite a bit of progress  
santacruzom : 9/6/2014 4:42 pm : link
with CK2 after launching several new games to apply the things I'd learned one by one. I'm now in a game where I've managed to become King of Ireland, which has introduced a whole new layer of mechanics to learn. I'm not entirely sure what to do from here but I imagine I'll just need to figure out a way to justify a war between me and Scotland. I'm still uncertain of all the things that determine whether I hold territories/holdings/demenses/whatever or whether they're controlled by vassals, and I still don't know how to maximize my income. With the whole kingdom of Ireland in my fold, I'm only earning about 6.5 gold a month.

The Pope has finally called a crusade but I don't seem to have the money to participate -- raising a levy and enough galleys to transport them blows through my cash in a hurry. This is a departure from what I'm used to from Medieval 2 Total War, in which your crusading armies have no upkeep while participating in the crusade.
RE: yeah, I've made quite a bit of progress  
Enoch : 9/6/2014 8:37 pm : link
In comment 11843980 santacruzom said:
Quote:
with CK2 after launching several new games to apply the things I'd learned one by one. I'm now in a game where I've managed to become King of Ireland, which has introduced a whole new layer of mechanics to learn. I'm not entirely sure what to do from here but I imagine I'll just need to figure out a way to justify a war between me and Scotland. I'm still uncertain of all the things that determine whether I hold territories/holdings/demenses/whatever or whether they're controlled by vassals, and I still don't know how to maximize my income. With the whole kingdom of Ireland in my fold, I'm only earning about 6.5 gold a month.

The Pope has finally called a crusade but I don't seem to have the money to participate -- raising a levy and enough galleys to transport them blows through my cash in a hurry. This is a departure from what I'm used to from Medieval 2 Total War, in which your crusading armies have no upkeep while participating in the crusade.


Crusades are often worth the money even for nominal participation. As Ireland, you probably don't want to try to win a Crusade (presumably, it's for Jerusalem, which is nearly always the first one the Pope calls) because you'd never be able to hold the territory you gain. But, joining it, mustering some of your armies and sending them to visit is great. Anybody leading an army that lands in a Crusade target gets the "Crusader" trait. +2 to Martial, +15 to opinion with any other Crusader, and an opinion benefit with the Pope and all your Bishops. That's really nice to have, especially if all your major vassals have it, too.

First, make sure your Crown authority is high enough that you can appoint leaders to armies. ("Low" is enough; "Autonomous Vassals" is not.) Then join the Crusade. Raise levies in a few counties, and appoint yourself, your heir, and all your vassals to lead elements of those levies. Put them on ships without merging the forces together. Sail to the Holy Land and disembark. You should get a pop-up notification saying that you've gained the Crusader trait. Hang around an extra week or so to be sure, then you can sail home.
On Income:  
Enoch : 9/6/2014 8:47 pm : link
First, high Stewardship really helps. Consider sending your heir for education with somebody who has a good Stewardship education trait-- the higher demesne limit and the multiplier on demesne income are very useful.

Your Steward should always be doing the "Collect Taxes" mission in whichever county in your personal demesne generates the most income.

Your bishops have the option of sending their taxes either to you or to the Pope. Make them like you more than His Holiness, and you get the money. Your Court Chaplian's "Improve Religious Relations" mission can be used to help you out here. Having Free Investiture also helps, as does having lots of Piety.

Also, recently conquered territories don't produce much income. No solution here but time.
That said, 6.5 per month isn't bad  
Enoch : 9/6/2014 8:56 pm : link
for a small country like Ireland. I just loaded up a game where I control the Kingdoms of Sicily and Jerusalem, plus few duchies in North Africa, and my income with a 15-Stewardship ruler is about 19 per month (228 per year).

(The 1066 start as the Duke of Apulia is a lot of fun. It'll teach Dynasty management. You start with scads of brothers, cousins, nephews, etc., hanging around in your court or ruling neighboring counties, many of whom have Claims on your titles. Also, once you establish the Kingdom of Sicily, you're in position to expand anywhere in the Mediterranean where an opportunity arises.)
What's the highest demesne limit have you guys gotten too?  
Jim in Scranton : 9/6/2014 8:56 pm : link
I think it was 8 for me. When the king dies and my heir take over, he never seems to marry anyone with high stewardship. That's my biggest complaint. I usually assassinate my wife and marry someone with high stewardship.
RE: What's the highest demesne limit have you guys gotten too?  
Enoch : 9/6/2014 9:24 pm : link
In comment 11844156 Jim in Scranton said:
Quote:
I think it was 8 for me. When the king dies and my heir take over, he never seems to marry anyone with high stewardship. That's my biggest complaint. I usually assassinate my wife and marry someone with high stewardship.

Never let your heir choose his own wife!! That's a huge point of control for future alliances, claims, genetic traits, and statistics.

With an Emperor-level title and investment in the "Legalism" tech, you can get into the low-double-digits with a good ruler.
RE: RE: yeah, I've made quite a bit of progress  
santacruzom : 9/6/2014 11:07 pm : link
In comment 11844141 Enoch said:
Quote:
First, make sure your Crown authority is high enough that you can appoint leaders to armies. ("Low" is enough; "Autonomous Vassals" is not.) Then join the Crusade. Raise levies in a few counties, and appoint yourself, your heir, and all your vassals to lead elements of those levies. Put them on ships without merging the forces together. Sail to the Holy Land and disembark. You should get a pop-up notification saying that you've gained the Crusader trait. Hang around an extra week or so to be sure, then you can sail home.


Hmm, I may give that a try but I'm actually waiting for my current king to die. He's 59 if I'm not mistaken -- if I put his AARP ass on a boat bound to Gaza he's gonna croak.
thanks Enoch  
santacruzom : 9/8/2014 4:35 pm : link
That Crusade tip really wound up being useful when my heir succeeded to King (is that how you'd actually put that?). My current King seems to be my best one yet, maybe not attribute-wise, but potential and relations-wise.

So now... how's the best way to go about acquiring territory completely outside the Irish kingdom? Same way as always? I have yet to be able to fabricate a claim with, say, a Scottish county.
er  
santacruzom : 9/8/2014 4:36 pm : link
what's the best way
for those into Diablo 3 but wanting something more fun  
RasputinPrime : 9/8/2014 5:39 pm : link
try Marvel Heroes. The game is F2P but be careful because you might, like me, find yourself dropping some money. Highly highly recommended to anyone who enjoys a good lootfest.
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