but the guy could have been holding the knife with an overhead grip, just down by his side. While he's he's walking towards the cops and going on that higher level, it could have created the impression that he was bringing his hands over his head.
We know as a matter of science that eyewitness testimony isn't always reliable and that our brains often patch memories together.
It's possible the cops saw the guy holding the knife a certain way, walking erratically, acting defiantly, and then started approaching the cops despite many warnings to stop, an remembers it as the guy at one point holding his arm up in the air.
What it sounds like your saying, like that cop who posted his statement on the Washington Post, whenever a cop just decides he want to stop you, question, whatever, we should let him do do it?..
I would. Why not? If I've done nothing wrong, what do I have to be scared of?
I know this for a fact, if I pull a knife out of my pocket, approach the police while ignoring their instructions to stop and drop the weapon, something bad is going to happen to me. That's common sense, something a lot of people are lacking these days.
What it sounds like your saying, like that cop who posted his statement on the Washington Post, whenever a cop just decides he want to stop you, question, whatever, we should let him do do it?..
I would. Why not? If I've done nothing wrong, what do I have to be scared of?
You're speaking from a very specific perspective. You understand that different people might have a different answer to this, right?
I would. Why not? If I've done nothing wrong, what do I have to be scared of?
I know this for a fact, if I pull a knife out of my pocket, approach the police while ignoring their instructions to stop and drop the weapon, something bad is going to happen to me. That's common sense, something a lot of people are lacking these days.
How about when you aren't doing something as extreme as holding a knife walking towards an officer.
For instance, what if you were walking with your girlfriend/wife and get stopped because you match a description of a robbery suspect? Yes, you can always comply because you haven't do anything wrong. However, what if those police officers manhandle you during their search, questioning, etc.? My sensibility says to just take it and complain later (to what end though? not all complaints are given much thought). My initial reaction says to confront the reason for such treatment (most likely to my own asskicking).
Now, I'm Asian so I probably won't be profiled too much, but there are people of other races, who do have to put up with such treatments.
I would. Why not? If I've done nothing wrong, what do I have to be scared of?
I know this for a fact, if I pull a knife out of my pocket, approach the police while ignoring their instructions to stop and drop the weapon, something bad is going to happen to me. That's common sense, something a lot of people are lacking these days.
How about when you aren't doing something as extreme as holding a knife walking towards an officer.
For instance, what if you were walking with your girlfriend/wife and get stopped because you match a description of a robbery suspect? Yes, you can always comply because you haven't do anything wrong. However, what if those police officers manhandle you during their search, questioning, etc.? My sensibility says to just take it and complain later (to what end though? not all complaints are given much thought). My initial reaction says to confront the reason for such treatment (most likely to my own asskicking).
Now, I'm Asian so I probably won't be profiled too much, but there are people of other races, who do have to put up with such treatments.
You say that now, but what if it was a car accident?
Sure I understand that, but it's the only perspective I have. Â
Here are three simple things I believe to be true.
1. If a police officer stops you to question you about something, there is probably some sort of reason, however small or large, that they feel the need to question you.
2. If you comply and answer all of their questions politely and are not guilty of doing anything wrong, there is a very high percentage that they will send you on your way, and at worst you are out five minutes of your time.
3. If you are defiant, or worse, the percentage of it turning out poorly for you increases exponentially.
I would. Why not? If I've done nothing wrong, what do I have to be scared of?
I know this for a fact, if I pull a knife out of my pocket, approach the police while ignoring their instructions to stop and drop the weapon, something bad is going to happen to me. That's common sense, something a lot of people are lacking these days.
How about when you aren't doing something as extreme as holding a knife walking towards an officer.
For instance, what if you were walking with your girlfriend/wife and get stopped because you match a description of a robbery suspect? Yes, you can always comply because you haven't do anything wrong. However, what if those police officers manhandle you during their search, questioning, etc.? My sensibility says to just take it and complain later (to what end though? not all complaints are given much thought). My initial reaction says to confront the reason for such treatment (most likely to my own asskicking).
Now, I'm Asian so I probably won't be profiled too much, but there are people of other races, who do have to put up with such treatments.
I have dealt with a few dishonest (basically crooked) cops in the past and IMO it is better to just do your best to obey. I made the naïve mistake of even going to the police station once to complain about one who was so far out of line I assumed they would want to know and it did nothing but put me in constant risk of being ticketed anywhere I went until I simply moved from that town. Luckily it was in my youth and not in the same state as my home town so I never had to deal with any of that again.
Well, it is and isn't. You're aware enough of racial profiling and the fact that justice isn't always equal or handed out equally in this country. So understanding that not everyone feels as you--that fair treatment from the police is a given--seems at least worth considering.
(And no one should get this twisted. Anyone of any race who walks towards the cops brandishing a weapon is asking for trouble.)
You are looking at it form your perspective. i have been stopped a few times in NYC just because..And that's what a log of Black people are saying and therein lies the mistrust.
It's very easy to make statements that just let the cops do their job, but when you're being frisked in front of you wife and small children, or being asked for ID just because you are standing under a building, it gets frustrating..
Why to they have to empty there guns on him? A shot in the leg would have made more sense.
A shot in the leg is extremely difficult and it doesn't guarantee the guy with the knife will stop moving towards you. He was so close if they missed while trying to shoot his legs he could have been stabbing them in less than 2 seconds.
I understand there is racial profiling, and yes it sucks. Â
But I'm also big into my physical well being, and feel everybody should be as well.
By obeying and complying, as long as you are not doing anything wrong, you are greatly increasing the odds that everything will be fine.
Take this situation in Ferguson. Let's say the officer did not know about the robbery, that this was a simple traffic stop gone wrong. This whole thing could have been avoided if the kid who was shot simply got out of the middle of the street and on to the sidewalk. Same thing with this dude. All he had to do was put the knife down and stay put. Neither had to die, but neither one exactly did their best to avoid being shot, either.
are trained extensively in firearms. I'm not saying stressful situations don't make it tougher, but typically many rounds have gone through a service revolver under various training scenarios and the shooter is well trained. Most know how to deal with the pressure, but there are many physiological (fight or flight; tache pysche) things that happen to a person in a combat situation and everyone responds differently. Trust me, I've been there. I'd like to say I responded perfectly everytine. Sadly, I can't. Every situation is different. For those people who question every action taken by LE, I ask them to step into these situations and see how they'd do. I'm certain most would fail.
I will have to respectfully disagree with the training part on this post.
LE may get extensive training (to what extent beyond their required training though?) using handguns (their primary weapon) while the military gets enough using rifles (their primary weapon), but ask any conventional military enlisted or officer about how much handgun training they have gotten and they will be able to tell you most likely on one hand (or two depending on how long they have been in service). Aside from an annual pistol qualification (for which most in the military get waivers due to optempo), very few get the ability to really learn how to shoot handguns in stressful situations.
Conversely, one of the main issues I've had with these police officers having M-4 throughout this situation is that they most likely don't get the level of training that is required to fully appreciate the gravity of having such firepower in their hands (really getting to know that importance of proper rifle muzzle location for each situation), as evidenced in that "I will fucking kill you" video and plethora of photos where these officers are aiming their rifles at unarmed protesters.
I'm not sure it was a training error for Officer Gofuckyourself. I think it was more of a guy who had been there way too long dealing with idiots and lost his shit. I could be wrong, but most police I know have been trained on their rifles. I'm not saying they get paid or get the time to go to the range enough, because they don't. But when they got them they were trained very well on them.
You are looking at it form your perspective. i have been stopped a few times in NYC just because..And that's what a log of Black people are saying and therein lies the mistrust.
It's very easy to make statements that just let the cops do their job, but when you're being frisked in front of you wife and small children, or being asked for ID just because you are standing under a building, it gets frustrating..
I kind of understand...I suffer from the same impediment as Ronnie and, even before 9/11, every time we drove re-entered the country from Canada, our car was invariably one of the few that was pulled over and searched. A couple times we were fortunate to have brought birth certificates for our kids, albeit packed in luggage in the trunk (the certificates, not the kids) because the officer didn't believe that they were ours. Most times however, it for Ag searches. But it's true, there was a lot of smuggling of fruits and stuff coming from open air Chinese markets.
I agree it's frustrating because you can see selectivity. OTOH, the majority of the fruit smuggling was by Chinese people returning to the US, so it's not like it's merely "Lets get the Asians". And, even so, never once did I think of being anything but polite and cooperative.
I agree that both of them should have done what they were ordered to do.
But i am not going to be content with getting harassed and frisked at any cops whim. That's not saying i'm going to start becoming violent and physical with the officer, but i will let him know that it's not right to do it..if you're not subject to it, you won't understand how it feels.
i think the perspective you have for a normal situation is correct. but others may not think that way. And that is the great divide and mistrust..
And you just take a look at howm many Black men have been released in NYC due to crooked cops and false evidence, you might bet a better understanding of the mistrust of police by some Black people..
RE: I understand there is racial profiling, and yes it sucks. Â
But I'm also big into my physical well being, and feel everybody should be as well.
By obeying and complying, as long as you are not doing anything wrong, you are greatly increasing the odds that everything will be fine.
Take this situation in Ferguson. Let's say the officer did not know about the robbery, that this was a simple traffic stop gone wrong. This whole thing could have been avoided if the kid who was shot simply got out of the middle of the street and on to the sidewalk. Same thing with this dude. All he had to do was put the knife down and stay put. Neither had to die, but neither one exactly did their best to avoid being shot, either.
Is that not fair to say?
Sure it is.
It's also fair to ask if shooting was the best response to either of these guys.
Taser? Pepper spray? Those are also fair questions and are the one's being asked.
So far nobody has suggested that you should charge or threaten an officer, have they?
The question is about lethal force and if the amount used was justified.
When you mentioned being frisked in front of your wife and children, my heart hurt for you and I wondered if that were me what would I do and how would I feel.
If I had to think about what I would do in that situation, even though it would probably make me feel embarrassed and humiliated, I would comply for the sake of my children.
pepper spray on a person with a knife, ever. All it does is hurt their eyes...you can still see if you are determined. It's never an option, at least not a smart one.
They could have used a taser if the scenario didn't play out so quickly. Being that there were two of them, the taser would have been an option if he didn't approach so quickly. He fell right at one officers feet. If they waited and used a taser, and it missed, one of them might have gotten stabbed. The taser does not always work. It shoots two probes out of the cartridge and if both of them do not hit, it does not work.
When you mentioned being frisked in front of your wife and children, my heart hurt for you and I wondered if that were me what would I do and how would I feel.
If I had to think about what I would do in that situation, even though it would probably make me feel embarrassed and humiliated, I would comply for the sake of my children.
On top of that, what kind of image of the police does that present to the children? Someone that's going to frisk dad even when he didn't do anything wrong?
pepper spray on a person with a knife, ever. All it does is hurt their eyes...you can still see if you are determined. It's never an option, at least not a smart one.
They could have used a taser if the scenario didn't play out so quickly. Being that there were two of them, the taser would have been an option if he didn't approach so quickly. He fell right at one officers feet. If they waited and used a taser, and it missed, one of them might have gotten stabbed. The taser does not always work. It shoots two probes out of the cartridge and if both of them do not hit, it does not work.
Thanks for the explanation. I agree. Other than the apparent lie about the knife being raised, I can't see that the officers did anything wrong in this situation.
RE: RE: No, I do not pretend to know how it feels... Â
When you mentioned being frisked in front of your wife and children, my heart hurt for you and I wondered if that were me what would I do and how would I feel.
If I had to think about what I would do in that situation, even though it would probably make me feel embarrassed and humiliated, I would comply for the sake of my children.
On top of that, what kind of image of the police does that present to the children? Someone that's going to frisk dad even when he didn't do anything wrong?
I hate to speculate, because I don't know and haven't been in the situation, but if it played out like that for me, I think I would try to use it as a teaching moment... To show the children how to react properly, and then explain later that the officer was just doing his job (even if I perhaps didn't believe that to be true, or that he was overzealous), and that there was a reason he felt the need to stop me, but once he saw that I was innocent he let me continue on my way... If for no other reason to preserve the innocence of my children and let them believe that the police are more often than not there to help them, as well as to show them how to properly act if they are ever in the same situation later in life (because I don't want my kid getting gunned down in the sreet because they lost their cool, like one of these boys).
I know it's a corny answer, but I can't think of any other way to approach it.
I'm not sure it was a training error for Officer Gofuckyourself. I think it was more of a guy who had been there way too long dealing with idiots and lost his shit. I could be wrong, but most police I know have been trained on their rifles. I'm not saying they get paid or get the time to go to the range enough, because they don't. But when they got them they were trained very well on them.
That is a valid point. And maybe this guy was completely drained (that brings up another point then about putting people out there, who probably aren't in their optimal shape (not even close)).
However, how about all those other cops in the beginning of this entire ordeal aiming their rifles at random protesters. First two rules of weapons safety is always:
1) Treat every weapon as if it was loaded (which I'm certain all of those were)
2) Never point at anything you don't intend to shoot (which I doubt they were going to shoot those protesters)
Nothing more frightening or infuriating as someone aiming his weapon, especially one that most people mistake for "assault rifle", at you for no apparent reason.
I'm not sure what, exactly, happened in Ferguson. Â
But Eric Garner's death was ruled a homicide, I believe.
There's a disturbing pattern, that goes back away now, of African American males getting disproportionately rough (to say the least) treatment from the police. So saying, 'Well, from my perspective…' isn't showing much empathy.
Ideally, everyone would be comfortable with the police. Everyone could feel equal under their treatment. But we're not there. And haven't been, possibly, ever.
The burden is rightfully on the police to hold themselves to the highest standard. It's absolutely a tough, terrifying (at times) job that they've chosen. I feel for the really good guys and wish it seemed like the screening was a little tighter so it would be safe to assume they all were.
I consider that a corny answer..It's a very good answer, once you get over the anger of being stopped. What you would say to your kids is pretty much what should be said..
Now, that being said, now consider being frisked about 6 or 7 more times, not in front of your kids, but just basically on the phone or jogging to your car..Or maybe being questioned about why you are standing under a building and having to pull out ID..While it's not a big deal, it can start to piss you off..
I can only imagine how that would feel, Even though the situation is that most of the violators of birng food are Chines, does not mean every Chinese person should be searched..classic definition of racial profiling..
It seems to me that along with generational poverty... Â
mistrust of the police is a vicious cycle that is going to be hard, if not impossible, to break. For both sides. Kids are being raised from very early childhood to not trust, and be defiant to, the police, while police are then dealing with these kids as teens/adults and then profiling everybody based on the experiences they have with them, and having their own views skewed/hardened by the experience.
When people know nothing else, how will it ever change?
So in the meantime, you have to comply or you run the risk of bad things happening, like these two individuals.
I know it's not a very strong, principled answer, and some of you may even feel that it's weak minded, but I am into self preservation. I would like to live my life and go about my business without meeting a premature end over a misunderstanding.
I think folks were just asking you to step out of your own perspective and understand why someone with different circumstances than your own may get belligerent with police- even when they know they've done nothing wrong.
I think folks were just asking you to step out of your own perspective and understand why someone with different circumstances than your own may get belligerent with police- even when they know they've done nothing wrong.
but I keep coming back to the fact that no matter how many times I had been profiled, harrassed, etc... No matter how angry I was, it wouldn't be worth it to take a stand by refusing to do what an armed officer of the law was telling me to do, especially if it was a request as simple as getting out of the middle of the street, or dropping my weapon and standing still.
And that's what's at the heart of this whole matter, isn't it? Why are people choosing THIS situation to rally around? The facts aren't in yet, but neither of these instances involved two completely innocent people just going about their business and being unjustly harrassed. In a lot of ways, both of them brought this upon themselves. First by committing a crime which brought the police there, and then by escalating the situation to put the officers in a situation where they felt the need to draw their guns and use force. It was avoidable. Does anybody really disagree with that? Why the protests?
but I keep coming back to the fact that no matter how many times I had been profiled, harrassed, etc... No matter how angry I was, it wouldn't be worth it to take a stand by refusing to do what an armed officer of the law was telling me to do, especially if it was a request as simple as getting out of the middle of the street, or dropping my weapon and standing still.
And that's what's at the heart of this whole matter, isn't it? Why are people choosing THIS situation to rally around? The facts aren't in yet, but neither of these instances involved two completely innocent people just going about their business and being unjustly harrassed. In a lot of ways, both of them brought this upon themselves. First by committing a crime which brought the police there, and then by escalating the situation to put the officers in a situation where they felt the need to draw their guns and use force. It was avoidable. Does anybody really disagree with that? Why the protests?
And how many times have you been profiled exactly?
I can only imagine how that would feel, Even though the situation is that most of the violators of birng food are Chines, does not mean every Chinese person should be searched..classic definition of racial profiling..
The most frustrating part is that they don't repack my suitcases after dumping all the contents out.
RE: I can certainly do that, and am trying to... Â
but I keep coming back to the fact that no matter how many times I had been profiled, harrassed, etc... No matter how angry I was, it wouldn't be worth it to take a stand by refusing to do what an armed officer of the law was telling me to do, especially if it was a request as simple as getting out of the middle of the street, or dropping my weapon and standing still.
And that's what's at the heart of this whole matter, isn't it? Why are people choosing THIS situation to rally around? The facts aren't in yet, but neither of these instances involved two completely innocent people just going about their business and being unjustly harrassed. In a lot of ways, both of them brought this upon themselves. First by committing a crime which brought the police there, and then by escalating the situation to put the officers in a situation where they felt the need to draw their guns and use force. It was avoidable. Does anybody really disagree with that? Why the protests?
They aren't.
The situation they chose to rally around was an unarmed, gentle teenager shot in the back while he had his hands raised in surrender as was initially reported.
What has surfaced since is almost irrelevant as the issue itself is broader than just this one specific incident. Also because the snowball has gotten so big, that short of BlueLou dropping a nuke on it, nobody is going to stop it until it gets to the bottom of the hill.
I can only imagine how that would feel, Even though the situation is that most of the violators of birng food are Chines, does not mean every Chinese person should be searched..classic definition of racial profiling..
The most frustrating part is that they don't repack my suitcases after dumping all the contents out.
Same things used to happen to my relatives when they would fly in from Korea. I mean, come on, you have to profile Chinese people...not Koreans...amirite?
All kidding aside, even my wife, who is a petite blonde of English-Austrian heritage, has been profiled twice and detained for questioning when entering and leaving Israel just based on her middle name sounding different. Go figure, huh?
RE: RE: I can certainly do that, and am trying to... Â
but I keep coming back to the fact that no matter how many times I had been profiled, harrassed, etc... No matter how angry I was, it wouldn't be worth it to take a stand by refusing to do what an armed officer of the law was telling me to do, especially if it was a request as simple as getting out of the middle of the street, or dropping my weapon and standing still.
And that's what's at the heart of this whole matter, isn't it? Why are people choosing THIS situation to rally around? The facts aren't in yet, but neither of these instances involved two completely innocent people just going about their business and being unjustly harrassed. In a lot of ways, both of them brought this upon themselves. First by committing a crime which brought the police there, and then by escalating the situation to put the officers in a situation where they felt the need to draw their guns and use force. It was avoidable. Does anybody really disagree with that? Why the protests?
And how many times have you been profiled exactly?
I didn't say I had been profiled. In fact, I stated several times that I did not pretend to know how it feels.
My answer was a direct response to Cam saying I should try to put myself in somebody else's shoes, from their perspective.
RE: RE: RE: I can certainly do that, and am trying to... Â
I didn't say I had been profiled. In fact, I stated several times that I did not pretend to know how it feels.
My answer was a direct response to Cam saying I should try to put myself in somebody else's shoes, from their perspective.
I know. But you continue to try to put yourself in the shoes of people you have almost no comparable experience with. And as Cam stated, your chosen approach is very commendable and mature. However, you seem to be really fighting against understanding where people of color are coming from.
a person that thinks these police shootings are getting out of hand. But this is completely justified. You don't advance towards and officer with a weapon. He got what was coming to him.
1) Distrust of the police
2) Being compliant when approached by the police
When i was a teenager, I was stopped by people in authority numerous times for nothing more than just being outside and hanging out. The only time i ever remember anything out of the ordinary happening is when one of the group would get mouthy.
We are all profiled in some sort of way. But we still have a choice in how we react. If you are frisked and questioned for no apparent reason, I still contend that while there is anger there, simply being compliant and following instructions is going to keep you alive.
Is it demeaning? Possibly. Is it uncalled for? Sure.
But should you find yourself in a situation where an officer is confronting you, being compliant is going to keep you alive.
Even for the most suspicious looking on this board, how many times can you say you've been face-to-face with an officer with no reason to approach you? If it is in the single digits and you followed his orders, is it really that big of an inconvenience to lose a life over?
I know that isn't the best response, but I also wouldn't advise doing anything else. I guess you could file a complaint if the act was egregious enough, but i sure as hell wouldn't know where to start to get the process rolling.
I can't say it doesn't happen, but can somebody produce an instance of an officer going up to a random person, who has no reason to be approached and shooting them dead in cold blood?
That's murder. That's execution. Having a conflict escaate into a death, while tragic, shouldn't be considered either of those things, especially when the victims have control over their fate.
Come on. 'Hey, look another white guy. He's probably okay.' isn't really the same thing.
Quote:
I can't say it doesn't happen, but can somebody produce an instance of an officer going up to a random person, who has no reason to be approached and shooting them dead in cold blood?
That's murder.
Not murdering people in cold blood is the lowest standard to which you could hold law enforcement. And you're not even sure it doesn't happen.
but there is a difference between not being sure and assuming they do.
When the police are called murderers and executioners, the latter is at play.
The key point here is that not being compliant is costing people lives. Yet, i get the feeling that the point is consider invalid by many as if we should all have the right to menace the police when confronted and live to tell about it.
If I'm aggressive towards a police officer, I expect to get arrested if it is verbal and manhandled and cuffed if it is physical. Oh and yes, a chance I'd end up dead, too.
Having a conflict escaate into a death, while tragic, shouldn't be considered either of those things, especially when the victims have control over their fate.
that they aren't victims.
I agree that yes, you should comply with officers.
The question your argument is missing is does non compliance = death? Should it?
If the answer to that question is, "no" then what you're doing is blaming the victim.
Non compliance without violence towards an officer shouldn't even equal a beating, much less death. If it is a lawful order it's going to equal a citation and perhaps being detained. It shouldn't go further especially if you are unarmed and not attacking the officer.
Sure people SHOULD comply, but we know that some people will not in every circumstance. That doesn't mean that if they're killed or beaten that they "got what they deserved", which seems to be what you are implying.
If I'm aggressive towards a police officer, I expect to get arrested if it is verbal and manhandled and cuffed if it is physical. Oh and yes, a chance I'd end up dead, too.
But don't you see the craziness in this statement? They make all the rules, so we should just shut our mouths and comply or else risk, arrest or even death?
Not saying I advocate mouthing off or getting physical with them, but to raise concern about the reason for such treatment is being sacrificed so that we won't get killed by the very people who have the duty to protect their fellow citizens?
Even if you are verbally non-compliant, do you think an officer will simply walk away? non-compliance shouldn't result in death, but being aggressive in any manner towards the police should result in some reprimand. It should take the form of a citation or arrest, but my guess is a guy who just manhandled a store clerk isn't going to just throw up his arms and go peacefully.
If I'm aggressive towards a police officer, I expect to get arrested if it is verbal and manhandled and cuffed if it is physical. Oh and yes, a chance I'd end up dead, too.
But don't you see the craziness in this statement? They make all the rules, so we should just shut our mouths and comply or else risk, arrest or even death?
Not saying I advocate mouthing off or getting physical with them, but to raise concern about the reason for such treatment is being sacrificed so that we won't get killed by the very people who have the duty to protect their fellow citizens?
Without "fear" of consequence how would we ever uphold the law?
do you have a better means for handling the situation?
You are incorrectly confronted by an officer. Is being aggressive going to change his mind? If you are aggressive towards an NFL ref who flagged you is he going to pick up the flag?
By the time you are confronted, the ship has sailed. you can either comply and hope all goes well, or you can fight back. what I'm saying is fighting back is going to have a negative result. If you comply, it might not. Then, if you feel so aggrieved to do something about it, I guess you could file a complaint, something you will at least be alive or not in jail to be able to do.
We know as a matter of science that eyewitness testimony isn't always reliable and that our brains often patch memories together.
It's possible the cops saw the guy holding the knife a certain way, walking erratically, acting defiantly, and then started approaching the cops despite many warnings to stop, an remembers it as the guy at one point holding his arm up in the air.
I would. Why not? If I've done nothing wrong, what do I have to be scared of?
I know this for a fact, if I pull a knife out of my pocket, approach the police while ignoring their instructions to stop and drop the weapon, something bad is going to happen to me. That's common sense, something a lot of people are lacking these days.
Quote:
What it sounds like your saying, like that cop who posted his statement on the Washington Post, whenever a cop just decides he want to stop you, question, whatever, we should let him do do it?..
I would. Why not? If I've done nothing wrong, what do I have to be scared of?
You're speaking from a very specific perspective. You understand that different people might have a different answer to this, right?
I know this for a fact, if I pull a knife out of my pocket, approach the police while ignoring their instructions to stop and drop the weapon, something bad is going to happen to me. That's common sense, something a lot of people are lacking these days.
How about when you aren't doing something as extreme as holding a knife walking towards an officer.
For instance, what if you were walking with your girlfriend/wife and get stopped because you match a description of a robbery suspect? Yes, you can always comply because you haven't do anything wrong. However, what if those police officers manhandle you during their search, questioning, etc.? My sensibility says to just take it and complain later (to what end though? not all complaints are given much thought). My initial reaction says to confront the reason for such treatment (most likely to my own asskicking).
Now, I'm Asian so I probably won't be profiled too much, but there are people of other races, who do have to put up with such treatments.
Quote:
I would. Why not? If I've done nothing wrong, what do I have to be scared of?
I know this for a fact, if I pull a knife out of my pocket, approach the police while ignoring their instructions to stop and drop the weapon, something bad is going to happen to me. That's common sense, something a lot of people are lacking these days.
How about when you aren't doing something as extreme as holding a knife walking towards an officer.
For instance, what if you were walking with your girlfriend/wife and get stopped because you match a description of a robbery suspect? Yes, you can always comply because you haven't do anything wrong. However, what if those police officers manhandle you during their search, questioning, etc.? My sensibility says to just take it and complain later (to what end though? not all complaints are given much thought). My initial reaction says to confront the reason for such treatment (most likely to my own asskicking).
Now, I'm Asian so I probably won't be profiled too much, but there are people of other races, who do have to put up with such treatments.
You say that now, but what if it was a car accident?
1. If a police officer stops you to question you about something, there is probably some sort of reason, however small or large, that they feel the need to question you.
2. If you comply and answer all of their questions politely and are not guilty of doing anything wrong, there is a very high percentage that they will send you on your way, and at worst you are out five minutes of your time.
3. If you are defiant, or worse, the percentage of it turning out poorly for you increases exponentially.
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I would. Why not? If I've done nothing wrong, what do I have to be scared of?
I know this for a fact, if I pull a knife out of my pocket, approach the police while ignoring their instructions to stop and drop the weapon, something bad is going to happen to me. That's common sense, something a lot of people are lacking these days.
How about when you aren't doing something as extreme as holding a knife walking towards an officer.
For instance, what if you were walking with your girlfriend/wife and get stopped because you match a description of a robbery suspect? Yes, you can always comply because you haven't do anything wrong. However, what if those police officers manhandle you during their search, questioning, etc.? My sensibility says to just take it and complain later (to what end though? not all complaints are given much thought). My initial reaction says to confront the reason for such treatment (most likely to my own asskicking).
Now, I'm Asian so I probably won't be profiled too much, but there are people of other races, who do have to put up with such treatments.
I have dealt with a few dishonest (basically crooked) cops in the past and IMO it is better to just do your best to obey. I made the naïve mistake of even going to the police station once to complain about one who was so far out of line I assumed they would want to know and it did nothing but put me in constant risk of being ticketed anywhere I went until I simply moved from that town. Luckily it was in my youth and not in the same state as my home town so I never had to deal with any of that again.
Well, it is and isn't. You're aware enough of racial profiling and the fact that justice isn't always equal or handed out equally in this country. So understanding that not everyone feels as you--that fair treatment from the police is a given--seems at least worth considering.
(And no one should get this twisted. Anyone of any race who walks towards the cops brandishing a weapon is asking for trouble.)
You are looking at it form your perspective. i have been stopped a few times in NYC just because..And that's what a log of Black people are saying and therein lies the mistrust.
It's very easy to make statements that just let the cops do their job, but when you're being frisked in front of you wife and small children, or being asked for ID just because you are standing under a building, it gets frustrating..
A shot in the leg is extremely difficult and it doesn't guarantee the guy with the knife will stop moving towards you. He was so close if they missed while trying to shoot his legs he could have been stabbing them in less than 2 seconds.
By obeying and complying, as long as you are not doing anything wrong, you are greatly increasing the odds that everything will be fine.
Take this situation in Ferguson. Let's say the officer did not know about the robbery, that this was a simple traffic stop gone wrong. This whole thing could have been avoided if the kid who was shot simply got out of the middle of the street and on to the sidewalk. Same thing with this dude. All he had to do was put the knife down and stay put. Neither had to die, but neither one exactly did their best to avoid being shot, either.
Is that not fair to say?
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are trained extensively in firearms. I'm not saying stressful situations don't make it tougher, but typically many rounds have gone through a service revolver under various training scenarios and the shooter is well trained. Most know how to deal with the pressure, but there are many physiological (fight or flight; tache pysche) things that happen to a person in a combat situation and everyone responds differently. Trust me, I've been there. I'd like to say I responded perfectly everytine. Sadly, I can't. Every situation is different. For those people who question every action taken by LE, I ask them to step into these situations and see how they'd do. I'm certain most would fail.
I will have to respectfully disagree with the training part on this post.
LE may get extensive training (to what extent beyond their required training though?) using handguns (their primary weapon) while the military gets enough using rifles (their primary weapon), but ask any conventional military enlisted or officer about how much handgun training they have gotten and they will be able to tell you most likely on one hand (or two depending on how long they have been in service). Aside from an annual pistol qualification (for which most in the military get waivers due to optempo), very few get the ability to really learn how to shoot handguns in stressful situations.
Conversely, one of the main issues I've had with these police officers having M-4 throughout this situation is that they most likely don't get the level of training that is required to fully appreciate the gravity of having such firepower in their hands (really getting to know that importance of proper rifle muzzle location for each situation), as evidenced in that "I will fucking kill you" video and plethora of photos where these officers are aiming their rifles at unarmed protesters.
I'm not sure it was a training error for Officer Gofuckyourself. I think it was more of a guy who had been there way too long dealing with idiots and lost his shit. I could be wrong, but most police I know have been trained on their rifles. I'm not saying they get paid or get the time to go to the range enough, because they don't. But when they got them they were trained very well on them.
You are looking at it form your perspective. i have been stopped a few times in NYC just because..And that's what a log of Black people are saying and therein lies the mistrust.
It's very easy to make statements that just let the cops do their job, but when you're being frisked in front of you wife and small children, or being asked for ID just because you are standing under a building, it gets frustrating..
I kind of understand...I suffer from the same impediment as Ronnie and, even before 9/11, every time we drove re-entered the country from Canada, our car was invariably one of the few that was pulled over and searched. A couple times we were fortunate to have brought birth certificates for our kids, albeit packed in luggage in the trunk (the certificates, not the kids) because the officer didn't believe that they were ours. Most times however, it for Ag searches. But it's true, there was a lot of smuggling of fruits and stuff coming from open air Chinese markets.
I agree it's frustrating because you can see selectivity. OTOH, the majority of the fruit smuggling was by Chinese people returning to the US, so it's not like it's merely "Lets get the Asians". And, even so, never once did I think of being anything but polite and cooperative.
But i am not going to be content with getting harassed and frisked at any cops whim. That's not saying i'm going to start becoming violent and physical with the officer, but i will let him know that it's not right to do it..if you're not subject to it, you won't understand how it feels.
i think the perspective you have for a normal situation is correct. but others may not think that way. And that is the great divide and mistrust..
And you just take a look at howm many Black men have been released in NYC due to crooked cops and false evidence, you might bet a better understanding of the mistrust of police by some Black people..
By obeying and complying, as long as you are not doing anything wrong, you are greatly increasing the odds that everything will be fine.
Take this situation in Ferguson. Let's say the officer did not know about the robbery, that this was a simple traffic stop gone wrong. This whole thing could have been avoided if the kid who was shot simply got out of the middle of the street and on to the sidewalk. Same thing with this dude. All he had to do was put the knife down and stay put. Neither had to die, but neither one exactly did their best to avoid being shot, either.
Is that not fair to say?
Sure it is.
It's also fair to ask if shooting was the best response to either of these guys.
Taser? Pepper spray? Those are also fair questions and are the one's being asked.
So far nobody has suggested that you should charge or threaten an officer, have they?
The question is about lethal force and if the amount used was justified.
When you mentioned being frisked in front of your wife and children, my heart hurt for you and I wondered if that were me what would I do and how would I feel.
If I had to think about what I would do in that situation, even though it would probably make me feel embarrassed and humiliated, I would comply for the sake of my children.
They could have used a taser if the scenario didn't play out so quickly. Being that there were two of them, the taser would have been an option if he didn't approach so quickly. He fell right at one officers feet. If they waited and used a taser, and it missed, one of them might have gotten stabbed. The taser does not always work. It shoots two probes out of the cartridge and if both of them do not hit, it does not work.
Dammit...I can't even say you're a racist for that comment...:(
When you mentioned being frisked in front of your wife and children, my heart hurt for you and I wondered if that were me what would I do and how would I feel.
If I had to think about what I would do in that situation, even though it would probably make me feel embarrassed and humiliated, I would comply for the sake of my children.
On top of that, what kind of image of the police does that present to the children? Someone that's going to frisk dad even when he didn't do anything wrong?
They could have used a taser if the scenario didn't play out so quickly. Being that there were two of them, the taser would have been an option if he didn't approach so quickly. He fell right at one officers feet. If they waited and used a taser, and it missed, one of them might have gotten stabbed. The taser does not always work. It shoots two probes out of the cartridge and if both of them do not hit, it does not work.
Thanks for the explanation. I agree. Other than the apparent lie about the knife being raised, I can't see that the officers did anything wrong in this situation.
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When you mentioned being frisked in front of your wife and children, my heart hurt for you and I wondered if that were me what would I do and how would I feel.
If I had to think about what I would do in that situation, even though it would probably make me feel embarrassed and humiliated, I would comply for the sake of my children.
On top of that, what kind of image of the police does that present to the children? Someone that's going to frisk dad even when he didn't do anything wrong?
I hate to speculate, because I don't know and haven't been in the situation, but if it played out like that for me, I think I would try to use it as a teaching moment... To show the children how to react properly, and then explain later that the officer was just doing his job (even if I perhaps didn't believe that to be true, or that he was overzealous), and that there was a reason he felt the need to stop me, but once he saw that I was innocent he let me continue on my way... If for no other reason to preserve the innocence of my children and let them believe that the police are more often than not there to help them, as well as to show them how to properly act if they are ever in the same situation later in life (because I don't want my kid getting gunned down in the sreet because they lost their cool, like one of these boys).
I know it's a corny answer, but I can't think of any other way to approach it.
That is a valid point. And maybe this guy was completely drained (that brings up another point then about putting people out there, who probably aren't in their optimal shape (not even close)).
However, how about all those other cops in the beginning of this entire ordeal aiming their rifles at random protesters. First two rules of weapons safety is always:
1) Treat every weapon as if it was loaded (which I'm certain all of those were)
2) Never point at anything you don't intend to shoot (which I doubt they were going to shoot those protesters)
Nothing more frightening or infuriating as someone aiming his weapon, especially one that most people mistake for "assault rifle", at you for no apparent reason.
There's a disturbing pattern, that goes back away now, of African American males getting disproportionately rough (to say the least) treatment from the police. So saying, 'Well, from my perspective…' isn't showing much empathy.
Ideally, everyone would be comfortable with the police. Everyone could feel equal under their treatment. But we're not there. And haven't been, possibly, ever.
The burden is rightfully on the police to hold themselves to the highest standard. It's absolutely a tough, terrifying (at times) job that they've chosen. I feel for the really good guys and wish it seemed like the screening was a little tighter so it would be safe to assume they all were.
Now, that being said, now consider being frisked about 6 or 7 more times, not in front of your kids, but just basically on the phone or jogging to your car..Or maybe being questioned about why you are standing under a building and having to pull out ID..While it's not a big deal, it can start to piss you off..
When people know nothing else, how will it ever change?
So in the meantime, you have to comply or you run the risk of bad things happening, like these two individuals.
I know it's not a very strong, principled answer, and some of you may even feel that it's weak minded, but I am into self preservation. I would like to live my life and go about my business without meeting a premature end over a misunderstanding.
Yes. That.
And that's what's at the heart of this whole matter, isn't it? Why are people choosing THIS situation to rally around? The facts aren't in yet, but neither of these instances involved two completely innocent people just going about their business and being unjustly harrassed. In a lot of ways, both of them brought this upon themselves. First by committing a crime which brought the police there, and then by escalating the situation to put the officers in a situation where they felt the need to draw their guns and use force. It was avoidable. Does anybody really disagree with that? Why the protests?
I dunno, man. It feels like you're fighting empathy more than attempting to embrace it.
And that's what's at the heart of this whole matter, isn't it? Why are people choosing THIS situation to rally around? The facts aren't in yet, but neither of these instances involved two completely innocent people just going about their business and being unjustly harrassed. In a lot of ways, both of them brought this upon themselves. First by committing a crime which brought the police there, and then by escalating the situation to put the officers in a situation where they felt the need to draw their guns and use force. It was avoidable. Does anybody really disagree with that? Why the protests?
And how many times have you been profiled exactly?
The most frustrating part is that they don't repack my suitcases after dumping all the contents out.
And that's what's at the heart of this whole matter, isn't it? Why are people choosing THIS situation to rally around? The facts aren't in yet, but neither of these instances involved two completely innocent people just going about their business and being unjustly harrassed. In a lot of ways, both of them brought this upon themselves. First by committing a crime which brought the police there, and then by escalating the situation to put the officers in a situation where they felt the need to draw their guns and use force. It was avoidable. Does anybody really disagree with that? Why the protests?
They aren't.
The situation they chose to rally around was an unarmed, gentle teenager shot in the back while he had his hands raised in surrender as was initially reported.
What has surfaced since is almost irrelevant as the issue itself is broader than just this one specific incident. Also because the snowball has gotten so big, that short of BlueLou dropping a nuke on it, nobody is going to stop it until it gets to the bottom of the hill.
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I can only imagine how that would feel, Even though the situation is that most of the violators of birng food are Chines, does not mean every Chinese person should be searched..classic definition of racial profiling..
The most frustrating part is that they don't repack my suitcases after dumping all the contents out.
Same things used to happen to my relatives when they would fly in from Korea. I mean, come on, you have to profile Chinese people...not Koreans...amirite?
All kidding aside, even my wife, who is a petite blonde of English-Austrian heritage, has been profiled twice and detained for questioning when entering and leaving Israel just based on her middle name sounding different. Go figure, huh?
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but I keep coming back to the fact that no matter how many times I had been profiled, harrassed, etc... No matter how angry I was, it wouldn't be worth it to take a stand by refusing to do what an armed officer of the law was telling me to do, especially if it was a request as simple as getting out of the middle of the street, or dropping my weapon and standing still.
And that's what's at the heart of this whole matter, isn't it? Why are people choosing THIS situation to rally around? The facts aren't in yet, but neither of these instances involved two completely innocent people just going about their business and being unjustly harrassed. In a lot of ways, both of them brought this upon themselves. First by committing a crime which brought the police there, and then by escalating the situation to put the officers in a situation where they felt the need to draw their guns and use force. It was avoidable. Does anybody really disagree with that? Why the protests?
And how many times have you been profiled exactly?
I didn't say I had been profiled. In fact, I stated several times that I did not pretend to know how it feels.
My answer was a direct response to Cam saying I should try to put myself in somebody else's shoes, from their perspective.
My answer was a direct response to Cam saying I should try to put myself in somebody else's shoes, from their perspective.
I know. But you continue to try to put yourself in the shoes of people you have almost no comparable experience with. And as Cam stated, your chosen approach is very commendable and mature. However, you seem to be really fighting against understanding where people of color are coming from.
Thanks for this, I needed a good laugh today
2) Being compliant when approached by the police
When i was a teenager, I was stopped by people in authority numerous times for nothing more than just being outside and hanging out. The only time i ever remember anything out of the ordinary happening is when one of the group would get mouthy.
We are all profiled in some sort of way. But we still have a choice in how we react. If you are frisked and questioned for no apparent reason, I still contend that while there is anger there, simply being compliant and following instructions is going to keep you alive.
Is it demeaning? Possibly. Is it uncalled for? Sure.
But should you find yourself in a situation where an officer is confronting you, being compliant is going to keep you alive.
Even for the most suspicious looking on this board, how many times can you say you've been face-to-face with an officer with no reason to approach you? If it is in the single digits and you followed his orders, is it really that big of an inconvenience to lose a life over?
I know that isn't the best response, but I also wouldn't advise doing anything else. I guess you could file a complaint if the act was egregious enough, but i sure as hell wouldn't know where to start to get the process rolling.
I can't say it doesn't happen, but can somebody produce an instance of an officer going up to a random person, who has no reason to be approached and shooting them dead in cold blood?
That's murder. That's execution. Having a conflict escaate into a death, while tragic, shouldn't be considered either of those things, especially when the victims have control over their fate.
We are all profiled in some sort of way.
Come on. 'Hey, look another white guy. He's probably okay.' isn't really the same thing.
I can't say it doesn't happen, but can somebody produce an instance of an officer going up to a random person, who has no reason to be approached and shooting them dead in cold blood?
That's murder.
Not murdering people in cold blood is the lowest standard to which you could hold law enforcement. And you're not even sure it doesn't happen.
When the police are called murderers and executioners, the latter is at play.
The key point here is that not being compliant is costing people lives. Yet, i get the feeling that the point is consider invalid by many as if we should all have the right to menace the police when confronted and live to tell about it.
If I'm aggressive towards a police officer, I expect to get arrested if it is verbal and manhandled and cuffed if it is physical. Oh and yes, a chance I'd end up dead, too.
That's just logical.
that they aren't victims.
I agree that yes, you should comply with officers.
The question your argument is missing is does non compliance = death? Should it?
If the answer to that question is, "no" then what you're doing is blaming the victim.
Non compliance without violence towards an officer shouldn't even equal a beating, much less death. If it is a lawful order it's going to equal a citation and perhaps being detained. It shouldn't go further especially if you are unarmed and not attacking the officer.
Sure people SHOULD comply, but we know that some people will not in every circumstance. That doesn't mean that if they're killed or beaten that they "got what they deserved", which seems to be what you are implying.
But don't you see the craziness in this statement? They make all the rules, so we should just shut our mouths and comply or else risk, arrest or even death?
Not saying I advocate mouthing off or getting physical with them, but to raise concern about the reason for such treatment is being sacrificed so that we won't get killed by the very people who have the duty to protect their fellow citizens?
Even if you are verbally non-compliant, do you think an officer will simply walk away? non-compliance shouldn't result in death, but being aggressive in any manner towards the police should result in some reprimand. It should take the form of a citation or arrest, but my guess is a guy who just manhandled a store clerk isn't going to just throw up his arms and go peacefully.
Oh, that's right - "Hands Up. Don't Shoot".
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If I'm aggressive towards a police officer, I expect to get arrested if it is verbal and manhandled and cuffed if it is physical. Oh and yes, a chance I'd end up dead, too.
But don't you see the craziness in this statement? They make all the rules, so we should just shut our mouths and comply or else risk, arrest or even death?
Not saying I advocate mouthing off or getting physical with them, but to raise concern about the reason for such treatment is being sacrificed so that we won't get killed by the very people who have the duty to protect their fellow citizens?
Without "fear" of consequence how would we ever uphold the law?
You are incorrectly confronted by an officer. Is being aggressive going to change his mind? If you are aggressive towards an NFL ref who flagged you is he going to pick up the flag?
By the time you are confronted, the ship has sailed. you can either comply and hope all goes well, or you can fight back. what I'm saying is fighting back is going to have a negative result. If you comply, it might not. Then, if you feel so aggrieved to do something about it, I guess you could file a complaint, something you will at least be alive or not in jail to be able to do.