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Reese, Coughlin and Eli will sink or swim together

aquidneck : 8/24/2014 11:39 am
Really we must do better in 2014 than we did in 2013 or we will have gone down hill three consecutive seasons.

A season like 2013, where Manning threw 27 interceptions and team suffers a losing season (whatever the reason) should give no one confidence that things are about to improve.

This team has the oldest coach in the league and a QB well on the wrong side of 30.

The time to win is now. Lacking demonstrable improvement (and yes, it's all about W-L records), I see no reason to be confident in this administration in 2015.

The good news is the NFL is a crap shoot year to year. There is no team in the division or the league without warts.

I think the Giants can win, can compete for a division title now.
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It's a 3-year re-building project...  
M.S. : 8/24/2014 12:00 pm : link

...and this is just Year 1.

And one of the major re-building pieces just may be our QB draft choice last year out of Syracuse.
The  
AcidTest : 8/24/2014 12:00 pm : link
biggest criticisms of Reese are:

(1) Neglecting the OL and TE positions for too long. He began to reverse the former with Pugh and Richburg in rounds one and two in 2013 and 2014. The TE position is basically bereft of talent.

(2) Using too many day one and day two picks on players with character problems (Austin), or who didn't fit our system (Sintim, Beckum). He began to reverse the former again with this year's draft of "team captains."

(3) Drafting too many players based on "measureables" (Barden, Petrus, Brewer, Robinson.) Some of this is inevitable as you movie into the later rounds, but he has done far too much in that regard.

But Reese has a lot going in his favor, including two SBs. He also did draft Nicks, Beatty, JPP, and Prince. His first round picks have actually been good. The problem is that the poor quality of the rest of his drafts have left us with little depth.

A lot depends on how his 2013 and 2014 draft classes perform. The early results are certainly encouraging. If they develop, Reese is safe. He's certainly safe if Nassib can replace Eli as the starting QB in a few years. The early results on that are also good.
We shall see BB56  
Rick in Dallas : 8/24/2014 12:02 pm : link
My main concern is at the LOS on both ides of the ball...
Yeah because HCs and GMs are generally tied into whether their  
Mason : 8/24/2014 12:02 pm : link
QBs decline with age. Sorry to tell you but take a look around the league OLs aren't that great. And screaming OL around here has become like screaming it's the boogieman. Eli is on the other side of 30, playing in his 11th season. Unless Eli is taking something I don't know about, I don't see his skills and reflexes improving at this point. I seen a hell of lot of better QBs than Eli who age quickly on this side of 30. If Joe Montana could be told it is a young man game than I'm comfortable with Eli being told the same thing.
Why can't 2 guys swim and 1 guy sink?  
Headhunter : 8/24/2014 12:03 pm : link
or 2 guys sink an 1 guy swim?
RE: We shall see BB56  
Big Blue '56 : 8/24/2014 12:04 pm : link
In comment 11823055 Rick in Dallas said:
Quote:
My main concern is at the LOS on both ides of the ball...


Not unreasonable
Are you going to try and argue Eli's had the best pass protection  
Riggies : 8/24/2014 12:08 pm : link
of his career the last four years again, Mason?

I'm not really sure you get to be the guy to call out how anyone else views the OL situation, however they view it or its impact, with how foolish your own view has been established as being.
So many changes  
mrvax : 8/24/2014 12:22 pm : link
I can't remember an off season with so many changes. It will be a very interesting season. A 5 or 6 win year would cause more changes.

The offensive side of the ball is where all eyes will be. How is the Oline?, How's Eli doing? What about McAdoo?
If Nassib eventually gets good enough and  
mrvax : 8/24/2014 12:32 pm : link
replaces Eli as the starting QB, Reese will look like a genius.
RE: So many changes  
AnishPatel : 8/24/2014 12:33 pm : link
In comment 11823078 mrvax said:
Quote:
I can't remember an off season with so many changes. It will be a very interesting season. A 5 or 6 win year would cause more changes.

The offensive side of the ball is where all eyes will be. How is the Oline?, How's Eli doing? What about McAdoo?


The major fork in the road hasn't even come up yet. What happens to the coaching staff, all of them, and Eli in 2 years? Do we re-sign them all or is that fork where we say, thanks to everyone for the golden age, but now we need to rip it all apart and start again?

Eli will be 35 when his contract expires, and TC will be 2 years older. RR's contract expires in 2 years as well, and so it will be interesting to see what happens then. That's the major fork in the road that could incite big time change which we haven't seen since 2003-2004.
I think the big overhaul was last offseason.  
bceagle05 : 8/24/2014 12:37 pm : link
Do we really think the Giants are going to change offenses AGAIN this offseason? I think Eli's the most likely to go if we suck again. Reese and Coughlin, I think, will be back.
RE: RE: So many changes  
mrvax : 8/24/2014 12:39 pm : link
In comment 11823091 AnishPatel said:
Quote:

The major fork in the road hasn't even come up yet. What happens to the coaching staff, all of them, and Eli in 2 years? Do we re-sign them all or is that fork where we say, thanks to everyone for the golden age, but now we need to rip it all apart and start again?

Eli will be 35 when his contract expires, and TC will be 2 years older. RR's contract expires in 2 years as well, and so it will be interesting to see what happens then. That's the major fork in the road that could incite big time change which we haven't seen since 2003-2004.


Yes. Any decision on Eli's contract would be huge. Did you know if the Giants cut Eli this season, they would save $17M? He's very expensive so he has to produce.
I didn't know the savings.  
AnishPatel : 8/24/2014 12:43 pm : link
However, his contract is huge because it's in the back end of its length. It sucks but everyone needs to produce. RR, JJ, AR, Manning, and the whole staff. JJ is a free agent next season. AR, RR, Eli and the staff have 2 years left.

We could be looking at a complete rebuild. That's on the offensive side which I follow. I am not sure who would be a free agent on the defensive side. So add that and this team will be facing very important questions.
I wouldn't be surprised  
mrvax : 8/24/2014 12:44 pm : link
if the Gmen miss the playoffs again this year, Coughlin would retire or be "Gilbrided".
Drafts  
hilary f : 8/24/2014 12:45 pm : link
Eric wrote the 2008-2012 drafts were poor.The 2013 and 2014 drafts have been very good (can't blame giants for ODB hamstring pull).What has changed in the last two years.I don't see Reese as in trouble as the last two drafts have been very good.
eli and tc are definitely tied together  
MarshallOnMontana : 8/24/2014 12:49 pm : link
And lets make one thing clear.... barring injury, nassib will never start a game under coughlin, I dont care how poorly eli plays. He could be 3 tds vs 13 picks in week 7 leading a dead last offense, and exactly zero thought will be devoted to playing nassib. We just saw how stubborn coughlin was for years with diehl on the way out , are we to think that same loyalty and then some wont be extended to eli? Please
If Reese is clearly a buffoon  
bignygfan : 8/24/2014 12:51 pm : link
then I assume more than half the other GMs in this league are better.

So is that honestly the case?
RE: eli and tc are definitely tied together  
Big Blue '56 : 8/24/2014 12:51 pm : link
In comment 11823110 MarshallOnMontana said:
Quote:
And lets make one thing clear.... barring injury, nassib will never start a game under coughlin, I dont care how poorly eli plays. He could be 3 tds vs 13 picks in week 7 leading a dead last offense, and exactly zero thought will be devoted to playing nassib. We just saw how stubborn coughlin was for years with diehl on the way out , are we to think that same loyalty and then some wont be extended to eli? Please


Stubborn or not, add declining Snee and O'Hara(after his last injury) to that list
I'm afraid MarshallOnMontana  
mrvax : 8/24/2014 12:58 pm : link
is correct. Even if Eli is doing terrible, there will be no changes.

Mara or Reese would have to force it and that's not the Giants way.
That statement is ridiculous  
RetroJint : 8/24/2014 1:03 pm : link
Coughlin would start Nassib over a healthy Eli, if circumstances warranted, including pro-longed inefficient play or a season beyond hope when Tom would give management the opportunity fo judge Nassib under game conditions. Eli is not going to get, say, 80 million guaranteed like Jerruh gave Romo. Not from these folks. As for Diehl, who was a viable alternative? Hanging on to long? What rellacement options did he have? Did he miss on a cut? Has he ever?
We had a season beyond hope last year  
Bill in UT : 8/24/2014 1:11 pm : link
and all I heard here was that TC plays every game to win, not to evaluate players. So it would take extraordinary circumstances for Eli to be benched in favor of Nassib.
Reese does not suck  
chiro56 : 8/24/2014 1:13 pm : link
Some folks on here go overboard emotionally. Look at the big picture. Reese has had hits and he has had misses. He emphasizes some positions on the team more them others, as all GMs do. And to be fair he has had some bad luck with some picks having promise and getting badly injured on and off the field . How many GMs get it right all the time. Looks like he hit on a future QB last year as well. I've been a fan of the Giants since 1962. I have seen years of a screwed up organization. The Reese years overall have been the best . One could argue late 80s early 90s but then another decade of shit. The giants currently have got it moving in the right direction . My 2 cents .
It goes beyond TC. The organization itself isn't going to bench  
Riggies : 8/24/2014 1:17 pm : link
Eli this year. It could be ugly or it could be anything, but he's not going to lose his starting job in-season if he's healthy. Make your peace with it now and stop being "afraid" of it.

If he's terrible, they'll move on in the off-season... and that moving on will include TC, as he's not going to get a chance to coach the next franchise QB. It'll be a new era time in that case, whether people think that's fair or not too.
Part of the problem  
St. Jimmy : 8/24/2014 1:28 pm : link
with Coughlin is you are delaying the inevitable while he is here. I doubt he will be the Giants' coach 5 years from now. This means the team needs to be ready to win big within a year or two. There is still a lot of work to reach that level quickly.

I also think Coughlin is in win now mode which is not where this team should be after the last two seasons.
RE: It's a 3-year re-building project...  
shabu : 8/24/2014 1:39 pm : link
In comment 11823050 M.S. said:
Quote:

...and this is just Year 1.

And one of the major re-building pieces just may be our QB draft choice last year out of Syracuse.



Agree wholeheartedly.. if you look at the pieces they aquired.. they added competition accross the board at all spots other than QB ( which i think they need to soon )....

The cream will rise to the top and TC will get em to the dance when the horses are in place, they are just not all there .... yet ;)
The Giants will never say, 'This is a rebuilding year so don't  
Marty in Albany : 8/24/2014 1:39 pm : link
expect us to win the Super Bowl". If they said that, most of us would lower our expectations and would be happy to see incremental improvements in the team, even if the Giants were not contenders. BBI would also cut Eli, TC and Reese a little slack, which is in very short supply on this thread.

Unfortunately, the Giants will never say it because it would be bad for business. People would say, let's wait until they're good to buy Giants season tickets, or I'm not going to the Giants game because I don't want to see them lose again. Who is going to buy a jersey if the player is likely to be gone next year?

So temper your expectations because this IS a rebuilding year whether the Giants care to admit it or not.
to add...  
shabu : 8/24/2014 1:41 pm : link
To add, i think you would be foolish to bet against Eli. I think this year will be rough but at the same time you can't bet against Eli.
RE: Part of the problem  
oldutican : 8/24/2014 1:43 pm : link
In comment 11823166 St. Jimmy said:
Quote:
with Coughlin is you are delaying the inevitable while he is here. I doubt he will be the Giants' coach 5 years from now. This means the team needs to be ready to win big within a year or two. There is still a lot of work to reach that level quickly.

I also think Coughlin is in win now mode which is not where this team should be after the last two seasons.


I agree. It didn't make sense to me to bring back Coughlin this season.
RE: RE: Part of the problem  
mrvax : 8/24/2014 2:26 pm : link
In comment 11823176 oldutican said:
Quote:

I agree. It didn't make sense to me to bring back Coughlin this season.


WTH??? Coughlin, even with his warts is probably the 2nd best head coach in the league.
You can  
old man : 8/24/2014 2:56 pm : link
only play the hand you're given/you can only coach up the players you have. Sadly, we've lost an excellent bunch of players to c-e injuries (see 2007 class) that were in key positions, and sadly also Reese/ownership has been slow to make sure the team stayed competitive in light of new rules since 2007 and the current level of the game(speed, speed and more speed).Loyalty issue is on the ownership, OL,LB, WR, and 'projects' issues are on JR.
Because this is really year 1 of a COORDINATED rebuild(OC, draft, FA), it could be painful; do not throw the remote.
For all looking for a WCO, TC himself said he wanted ton return to Giants (traditional)football, which is a clock control run game behind a strong OL, RBs that don't fumble, a passing game to move the chains; but uptempo to keep players heads in the game, and truly, to better fit Eli's game persona(look at his 2-minute O success).
Reese getting a chance to pick his own coach  
ghost718 : 8/24/2014 4:12 pm : link
If the Giants feel he deserves that opportunity,than hopefully the hiring of McAdoo counts a little bit towards that.Because after paying close attention to the draft the past 3-4 years,I don't really care what his feeling is on the head coach.
If Coughlin  
TMS : 8/24/2014 4:26 pm : link
decides to retire, then Reese is history with a new GM naming the new HC. Coughlin was the big hire in 2004 not Reese. Coughlin is the one responsible for the two SBs. Reese for the decline in personnel since then.
RE: That statement is ridiculous  
Great White Ghost : 8/24/2014 5:34 pm : link
In comment 11823131 RetroJint said:
Quote:
Coughlin would start Nassib over a healthy Eli, if circumstances warranted, including pro-longed inefficient play or a season beyond hope when Tom would give management the opportunity fo judge Nassib under game conditions. Eli is not going to get, say, 80 million guaranteed like Jerruh gave Romo. Not from these folks. As for Diehl, who was a viable alternative? Hanging on to long? What rellacement options did he have? Did he miss on a cut? Has he ever?
I agree. I don't think TC is more comitted to Eli than he is to winning. also not sure they are married. Eli might get injured, retire, not get better, Nassib comes in, picks up MacAdoos offense and Eli goes and TC stays.

Same time Eli might turn it around, do better, TC decides at the end of the year, you know what, it's not worth the agravation anymore, my GM isn't giving me shit to work with,Hell some other team might want him. I don't think any of these guys are "Married".
not married but win or lose  
aquidneck : 8/24/2014 5:56 pm : link
They all share the same results.

Seven years running.
Reese isn't going anywhere. Find every negative comment  
Jimmy Googs : 8/24/2014 6:01 pm : link
you want from Mara on bad drafts/projects/disappointments, and he will still have the GM job for years to come.

The question of would Coughlin ever bench Eli for Nassib is a very interesting one though. You would think the length of the leash Eli has earned for himself is a mile long.

However, if the guy is still skittish, throwing bad picks and fumbling the ball everytime he moves out of the pocket game after game after game. Does TC have the balls to make a change?

My gut feeling is he doesn't, because once you go there, I don't think you can come back. The season would be a disaster, the locker-room would be a mess and the media would smell blood and be all over everybody.

If Eli goes down, so does Coughlin.
Still don't get the mantra of "the Giants historically do not fire GM'  
micky : 8/24/2014 6:44 pm : link
Though Young and Ecorsi retired on own, plus if you look at the GM's, historically there hasn't been many. Last one, don't fully remember, is Robustelli being let go. Yeah, it looks and can be said, but how then if that's the mantra can it possible for a Giants GM to be held accountability..based on historically?
It's amazing how many threads are about changing the QB or GM  
baadbill : 8/24/2014 7:43 pm : link
when it's still August and not a single game of the 2014 season has been played. Sounds like many have already decided this season isn't worth watching.

The Giants may suck this year but, fuck it, I think I'll actually watch the games before thinking about 2015.
This is a different NFL  
pjcas18 : 8/24/2014 7:50 pm : link
and Wellington Mara isn't alive.

If this team is the debacle it has the potential to be, Jerry Reese is no safer than TC or Eli.

Good news for all involved is TC is likely to retire, Eli has one more year and Reese could be the fall guy, I don't think any past "Giants don't.." statements are valid any longer.
anyone who thinks we had no viable alternatives to diehl  
MarshallOnMontana : 8/24/2014 8:22 pm : link
At any point were not paying one lick of attention or is completely clueless. The way coughlin handled the rt spot between he and locklear in 2012 was an embarrassment and helped start our downfall in the pitt game. I dont need to go too deep into the relative performances and circumstances because it was just 2 years ago and you should know. And the funny thing about it is many bbiers, including a fewon this thread, predicted step by step how that situation would inevitably play out and the consequences it would have, and we were right. Because we have paid attention to how tom has done business with individuals who have earned loyalty in his eyes. David diehl didnt get his job back because he was the better player. And anyone who thinks you couldnt multiply that by 100 fold when it comes to elis good will, youre nuts. Theres a better chance tom coughlin releases a sex tape with judy than there is he ever benches eli. He will go out on his sword. He is one of a handful of guys coughlin will always go an extra mile for
It is kind of hard to separate Reese and Coughlin  
Essex : 8/24/2014 8:36 pm : link
Whatever has been going on, besides 6 weeks still end of 2011 season, it has not been working for a very long time. Besides those six weeks, we have ranged from slightly above average (2010) to mediocre (2009, 2012, most of 2011 season), to downright bad (end of 2009 and 2012, beginning, if not all, of 2013). For me, it is really hard to apportion blame between Reese and TC. So, I agree with OP in the broad sense that these guys should sink or swim together. Eli is a different, though, I still remain convinced he could thrive under right circumstances. People forget he was asked to do a lot under Gillbride system, which led to a lot of turnovers. However, Eli can win games on his own, if he gets minimal protection. Unfortunately, he doesn't even get that anymore.

RE: It's amazing how many threads are about changing the QB or GM  
Jimmy Googs : 8/24/2014 8:41 pm : link
In comment 11823614 baadbill said:
Quote:
when it's still August and not a single game of the 2014 season has been played. Sounds like many have already decided this season isn't worth watching.

The Giants may suck this year but, fuck it, I think I'll actually watch the games before thinking about 2015.


I agree baadbill. My post was responding to the theme of the thread, not my opinion of the outcome of the season.

Run the ball decently, don't turn it over as much as the other team, get a few timely 3rd down stops on defense. This team is in the playoffs with whatever 5 O-lineman you put out there...
I guess the big  
St. Jimmy : 8/24/2014 9:14 pm : link
question is what do Mara and Tisch believe? Do they believe the problem is drafting or drafted players not getting a chance? The Jernigan comments at the end of last season point to the later.
The Giants ownership looks for reasons  
HelmetCatch : 8/24/2014 9:20 pm : link
to keep people - not get rid of them...
RE: I guess the big  
Essex : 8/24/2014 9:53 pm : link
In comment 11823727 St. Jimmy said:
Quote:
question is what do Mara and Tisch believe? Do they believe the problem is drafting or drafted players not getting a chance? The Jernigan comments at the end of last season point to the later.


I honestly do not know the answer. But if you had a team that beat the Falcons (best record in NFC following year), a 15-1 GB at Lambau, the Niners in the first of three straight NFC title games, and Brady and the Pats, shouldn't that tell us we had talent? Shouldn't we have been more consistent than 7-7 going into our 15th game and not get smoked by the Redskins in a meaningless game for them in December. As much as a I respect TC, that tells me a lot about where the blame lays if I HAD to separate them. But, as I said before, I don't think you need to or really can effectively. The OP has it right, they should sink or swim together.
Jerry Reese just turned 51.  
Big Blue Blogger : 8/25/2014 6:29 am : link
He's still fairly young for a top executive, so there's still reason to think he'll improve at his job. And to date, he hasn't exactly been Matt Millen. Put as many asterisks on his two Super Bowls as you like. He still has the rings.

Tom Coughlin turns 68 on Sunday. Eli turns 34 during wild card weekend. It's open to debate whether they are in decline, but they are both past the age where men in their respective jobs typically improve.

Add in the institutional history element - the Giants not firing a GM for 35 years - and the likelihood of Jerry Reese getting canned seems pretty far-fetched. It's relatively easy to see Coughlin retiring after a rough 2014. I can even imagine the team moving on from Eli after another bad year. But as long as Reese convinces ownership that he has a credible plan for turning things around, he'll almost certainly get a chance to implement it.
Eli Manning  
George : 8/25/2014 2:47 pm : link
receives $17,000,000 next year (2015) - the final one of his contract. Something will have to give.

It doesn't really matter how well he or the team performs. One way or the other, Eli will need to be restructured or told he's in his final year as a Giant in 2015. If he puts up numbers like he did last year, and if the team struggles like it did last year, it will be hard for the team to justify keeping his 34 year-old self for that kind of money.

I am awed by what Eli Manning has done for the Giants, and I would love to see him do it again. But there comes a time when an athlete's body just doesn't hold up to the punishment any more. Watching him try to evade rushers gets more difficult each year - and that's saying something, because he was never one of the nimbler QBs in the league. He's accumulated a variety of foot, leg, and shoulder injuries over the years, and he's bound to get dinged up again this year - especially with the porous OL we have right now.

Everyone has to retire sooner or later. I think Giants fans might have to get used to the idea of not having Eli Manning around forever - and that his exit might be closer at hand than folks realize.

2014 will be a very interesting year in GiantsLand. And probably not a very good one.
RE: Eli Manning  
baadbill : 8/25/2014 7:09 pm : link
In comment 11824615 George said:
Quote:
receives $17,000,000 next year (2015) - the final one of his contract. Something will have to give...


I don't see Eli ever giving the Giants a hard time about his contract. He'll do what is best for the team and organization. It's one of the reasons he's a great player for the Giants (just like Simms).

If Eli's worth $20M a year he should get it  
Bill in UT : 8/25/2014 7:58 pm : link
If he's worth $10M a year he should be replaced
RE: If Eli's worth $20M a year he should get it  
baadbill : 8/25/2014 8:03 pm : link
In comment 11825037 Bill in UT said:
Quote:
If he's worth $10M a year he should be replaced


I want to be clear about my post ... Eli can play lights out and "be worth $20M a year" and he will still restructure his contract if that is what is necessary for the team/organization to succeed (i.e. to have the cap space to sign the players to keep the team successful).
RE: RE: If Eli's worth $20M a year he should get it  
Bill in UT : 8/25/2014 8:26 pm : link
In comment 11825044 baadbill said:
Quote:
In comment 11825037 Bill in UT said:


Quote:


If he's worth $10M a year he should be replaced



I want to be clear about my post ... Eli can play lights out and "be worth $20M a year" and he will still restructure his contract if that is what is necessary for the team/organization to succeed (i.e. to have the cap space to sign the players to keep the team successful).


Restructuring doesn't mean taking less money, it just means changing the payout schedule. So I'll stay with my last post once that is figured in
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