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Film Study: Why Has The Giants Offensive Line Struggled?

Gross Blau Oberst : 8/25/2014 3:12 pm
I know some don't like or trust SB nation, but I found this article interesting. How accurate the analysis is, I could not tell. I'll leave that to the BBI self professed experts.

Giants OL - an analysis advocating the line needs time to gel and trust one another to get their individual assignments done correctly.


OL needs time and trust - ( New Window )
Something so basic appears  
Big Blue '56 : 8/25/2014 3:43 pm : link
to be lost on a bunch here
because a bunch of people see some guys getting manhandled  
chris r : 8/25/2014 3:45 pm : link
which has nothing to do with trust.
In pre-season, with limited snaps  
Big Blue '56 : 8/25/2014 3:48 pm : link
and different experimental line combinations? That kind of manhandled?

They need time to gel. Period. End of story. If they collectively prove to be crap as we're wll into the season, then so be it. Right now, NOTHING definitive can be opined, pro or con
Big Blue 56: Plenty can be opined  
Jupiter : 8/25/2014 3:51 pm : link
Otherwise, this forum would not exist. The problem is that the opinions aren't based on rational analysis.
Jupiter, of course.  
Big Blue '56 : 8/25/2014 3:52 pm : link
That's why I said DEFINITIVELY opined..
RE: because a bunch of people see some guys getting manhandled  
gmen9892 : 8/25/2014 3:53 pm : link
In comment 11824692 chris r said:
Quote:
which has nothing to do with trust.


Maybe im missing it, but I dont really see where guys are getting manhandled? I dont see guys getting bullrushed into the qb. Its a matter of guys running completely free, which often has to do with missed assignments. Stunts require the OL to have good communication, and that only comes with time.

Schwartz has looked bad on a couple of plays, but outside of that, it looks a lot like the lineman are choosing the wrong times to help and not help and the backs are whiffing or are completely not seeing blitzers.
A lot of times its impossible to determine who is at fault on the OL  
PatersonPlank : 8/25/2014 3:53 pm : link
we don't understand the schemes and responsibilities. Just because someone is closest to the issue doesn't mean it was his fault or responsibility.
RE: Big Blue 56: Plenty can be opined  
GIANTSr01 : 8/25/2014 3:57 pm : link
In comment 11824701 Jupiter said:
Quote:
Otherwise, this forum would not exist. The problem is that the opinions aren't based on rational analysis.


I'd settle for irrational analysis. Half the time it seems posters haven't even watched the same game.
There were obviously some times one of the OL got beat  
Bino5 : 8/25/2014 3:58 pm : link
but the biggest issue against the Jets was confusion on stunts and blitzes. They had enough to block it up and were late and/or unsure of who to block.
and miscommunication  
GIANTSr01 : 8/25/2014 3:59 pm : link
due to the completely revamped OL can lead to guys getting "manhandled". If you hesitate for a split second, it'll affect your technique and could allow the DL to get leverage. Which will often result in it looking like you were manhandled.
well on the other end we have posters  
hitdog42 : 8/25/2014 3:59 pm : link
who claim the 1 drive the giants looked like a professional football team is the only one they tried on this preseason... so its on both ends..
Big Blue and gmen: as to "manhandled" I mean getting tossed aside  
Bobby Epps : 8/25/2014 4:00 pm : link
like a rag doll as soon as the ball is snapped.

Watch Wilkerson against Walton or Richburg but especially watch Richardson against Jerry. That's the middle of the line getting mashed on most running plays in the 1st half.
RE: There were obviously some times one of the OL got beat  
GIANTSr01 : 8/25/2014 4:00 pm : link
In comment 11824718 Bino5 said:
Quote:
but the biggest issue against the Jets was confusion on stunts and blitzes. They had enough to block it up and were late and/or unsure of who to block.


Yup, and one of those times was Beatty getting smoked by Babin. He's gotta step up and improve fast, but that could partly be due to some rust from all the time he's missed.
hitdog, I've learned through many decades of watching the pre-season  
Big Blue '56 : 8/25/2014 4:01 pm : link
NOT to make factual judgements, especially given all the shiffling that goes on game in and game out..

Bobby, forget for the moment it's pre-season.  
Big Blue '56 : 8/25/2014 4:04 pm : link
Forget for the moment it's a brand new OL save for Pugh. Under ANY circumstances, one of the best DL lines in the NFL(Jets) are going to "have their way" with most OLs and that's with OLs that for the most part, are not strangers to each other
the most worrisome thing to me  
GIANTSr01 : 8/25/2014 4:05 pm : link
is that they keep shuffling the OL (somewhat necessitated by injuries). So the starting unit still isn't really getting the chance to develop the trust and communication they need. It could be mid-season before we see this unit play up to their capabilities.
RE: hitdog, I've learned through many decades of watching the pre-season  
Big Blue '56 : 8/25/2014 4:05 pm : link
In comment 11824728 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
NOT to make factual judgements, especially given all the shiffling that goes on game in and game out..


Oops, just noticed. Shiffling=shuffling
RE: the most worrisome thing to me  
Big Blue '56 : 8/25/2014 4:06 pm : link
In comment 11824736 GIANTSr01 said:
Quote:
is that they keep shuffling the OL (somewhat necessitated by injuries). So the starting unit still isn't really getting the chance to develop the trust and communication they need. It could be mid-season before we see this unit play up to their capabilities.


That's almost been my point since they started to put this line together once FA started
why have they had success running if they  
Headhunter : 8/25/2014 4:08 pm : link
are getting manhandled?ive seen a few whiffs and failure to pick up stunts and delayed blitzes. I don't remember anyone getting bull rushed and blown up
RE: why have they had success running if they  
GIANTSr01 : 8/25/2014 4:16 pm : link
In comment 11824751 Headhunter said:
Quote:
are getting manhandled?ive seen a few whiffs and failure to pick up stunts and delayed blitzes. I don't remember anyone getting bull rushed and blown up


I'd consider Beatty getting beat by the POS Babin getting "manhandled". He wasn't physically beat, but he was certainly mentally manhandled on that swim move in a clear 1v1 siutation.

Having time to gel isn't going to solve that particular issue (hopefully knocking the rust off does).
It's been a few days  
RB^2 : 8/25/2014 4:20 pm : link
but my recollection is that the tackles held up pretty well but the interior line got its ass kicked. Both Schwartz and Richburg got pushed into the backfield on pass plays.

I noticed on the TD before the half that the RDE (I think Richardson) actually dropped into coverage in the middle of the field instead of rushing the QB. I have no idea why he would do that but that's probably a big reason why Eli had time to throw a good pass to Randle.
Hard to address Beatty at this point given all that rust.  
Big Blue '56 : 8/25/2014 4:23 pm : link
Besides, it's not as if Babin is a load of crap..
Per PFF  
geemanfan : 8/25/2014 4:28 pm : link
JD Walton was the linemen that did not play well.
Let's hope they are right. Because there's not much of a choice.  
BeerFridge : 8/25/2014 4:32 pm : link
.
In the first half they all took turns getting beat  
UberAlias : 8/25/2014 4:34 pm : link
From what I saw. One time it was Beatty, one time Schwartz, Walton, one of the TEs, etc. Pressure was the big reason for the failed drives and I think all of the starters were at fault one time or another. They basically took turns killing drives. It basically comes down to consistency from what I saw.
I wonder if we'll see  
GIANTSr01 : 8/25/2014 4:36 pm : link
the starting OL get more than the 15-18 snaps that TC has planned for the starters. On one hand, they need the "practice" together to build some cohesion/confidence, on the other depth is dangerously thin.
Schwartz's  
robbieballs2003 : 8/25/2014 4:37 pm : link
technique has been awful and that is not a result of not know his assignment. He plays too high. His weight is unbalanced. His footwork is bad. That is what I am troubled with. A player with his experience should not be doing that. On one hand, it is very correctable but on the other hand a vet with his experience shouldn't be making those mistakes. If he is making them at this stage of his career are they correctable or is he set in his ways?
I think they'd be better off  
RetroJint : 8/25/2014 4:38 pm : link
If Eli were calling the blitz protections instead of the C. Or maybe Eli would be better off knowing what he wanted is what he got. Trust . They don't have it yet ; they might be ok everywhere but LOT. They could jell, stay healthy and surprise. But it does take time .
RE: Schwartz's  
GIANTSr01 : 8/25/2014 4:40 pm : link
In comment 11824807 robbieballs2003 said:
Quote:
technique has been awful and that is not a result of not know his assignment. He plays too high. His weight is unbalanced. His footwork is bad. That is what I am troubled with. A player with his experience should not be doing that. On one hand, it is very correctable but on the other hand a vet with his experience shouldn't be making those mistakes. If he is making them at this stage of his career are they correctable or is he set in his ways?


Did he have the same poor technique last year? If so, that's an indictment against the FO for giving him that contract. Could some of the poor technique be due to the switch from RG to LG and the different footwork involved?
RE: RE: why have they had success running if they  
PeterS : 8/25/2014 4:40 pm : link
In comment 11824776 GIANTSr01 said:
Quote:
In comment 11824751 Headhunter said:


Quote:


are getting manhandled?ive seen a few whiffs and failure to pick up stunts and delayed blitzes. I don't remember anyone getting bull rushed and blown up



I'd consider Beatty getting beat by the POS Babin getting "manhandled". He wasn't physically beat, but he was certainly mentally manhandled on that swim move in a clear 1v1 siutation.

Having time to gel isn't going to solve that particular issue (hopefully knocking the rust off does).


Was Beatty expecting help from the guard or even RB? If not, it was inexcusable for someone with his experience.
Peter  
GIANTSr01 : 8/25/2014 4:46 pm : link
To me it looked like a clear 1v1 situation. I think it was an NFL Network breakdown I heard where they said he was leaning slightly to the outside and Babin read it and went underneath. A clear breakdown in Beatty's technique.

If you're an optimist, you attribute that to it being rust from missing most of camp and only getting 15 snaps the previous game.

If you're a pessimist, it's a repeat of the Beatty we saw last year.
RE: RE: Schwartz's  
robbieballs2003 : 8/25/2014 4:52 pm : link
In comment 11824818 GIANTSr01 said:
Quote:
In comment 11824807 robbieballs2003 said:


Quote:


technique has been awful and that is not a result of not know his assignment. He plays too high. His weight is unbalanced. His footwork is bad. That is what I am troubled with. A player with his experience should not be doing that. On one hand, it is very correctable but on the other hand a vet with his experience shouldn't be making those mistakes. If he is making them at this stage of his career are they correctable or is he set in his ways?



Did he have the same poor technique last year? If so, that's an indictment against the FO for giving him that contract. Could some of the poor technique be due to the switch from RG to LG and the different footwork involved?


I truly don't know. I was excited when we got him but now that I have seen him I am not impressed. I'm not ready to throw in the towel on him but I don't think be should be given a starting spot. He should earn it.
RE: In pre-season, with limited snaps  
Great White Ghost : 8/25/2014 4:58 pm : link
In comment 11824696 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
and different experimental line combinations? That kind of manhandled?

They need time to gel. Period. End of story. If they collectively prove to be crap as we're wll into the season, then so be it. Right now, NOTHING definitive can be opined, pro or con
The lack of physicality is appaling.Plenty can be opined.This is the same fuc,mking bullshit that was touted here last preseason. Same bukllkshit when it was said last year was a rebuilding year, they weren't set to be competitive. The whole notion nothing can be known or learned from seeing a team play 4 games, or that noone knows except the prfessionals is bullshit.
One doesn't need to be a carpenter to tel that anothers work is sloppy, or that the builder had no talent.
I don't need to be a lawyer to know mine sucked and the other guy had a good one. I don't need to be a mechanic to tell if a guy is just a parts changer and has no real talent or diagnostic skills.I don't need to be a painter to see some guys work is shit and meaningless.

In aspectator sport, whose revenue is based on the work product of entertainment provided to us, the fans, I hate to break it to you but fans are as good a judge as anyone else, and often you'll see management taking years to bring themselves to face what fans are often saying for the longest time.

It's true it will take this line time to gel, but they play soft, no intent, with no physicality, much like the defense played last year before Beason arrived.
guys getting blown of f the line or guys running across their faces isn't gelling, it's just playing like shit with no real sustained effort.

That said I'm not sure Schwartz getting hurt isn't addition by subtraction.

If Mosely and Walton can step up their games I think we'll be OK.
fair enough  
GIANTSr01 : 8/25/2014 4:59 pm : link
though likely a moot point now. I think (hope) he'll have to battle back at RG if he wants to start this year. Don't see Richburg giving the LG spot back
RE: RE: In pre-season, with limited snaps  
Big Blue '56 : 8/25/2014 5:10 pm : link
In comment 11824840 Great White Ghost said:
Quote:
In comment 11824696 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


and different experimental line combinations? That kind of manhandled?

They need time to gel. Period. End of story. If they collectively prove to be crap as we're wll into the season, then so be it. Right now, NOTHING definitive can be opined, pro or con

The lack of physicality is appaling.Plenty can be opined.This is the same fuc,mking bullshit that was touted here last preseason. Same bukllkshit when it was said last year was a rebuilding year, they weren't set to be competitive. The whole notion nothing can be known or learned from seeing a team play 4 games, or that noone knows except the prfessionals is bullshit.
One doesn't need to be a carpenter to tel that anothers work is sloppy, or that the builder had no talent.
I don't need to be a lawyer to know mine sucked and the other guy had a good one. I don't need to be a mechanic to tell if a guy is just a parts changer and has no real talent or diagnostic skills.I don't need to be a painter to see some guys work is shit and meaningless.

In aspectator sport, whose revenue is based on the work product of entertainment provided to us, the fans, I hate to break it to you but fans are as good a judge as anyone else, and often you'll see management taking years to bring themselves to face what fans are often saying for the longest time.

It's true it will take this line time to gel, but they play soft, no intent, with no physicality, much like the defense played last year before Beason arrived.
guys getting blown of f the line or guys running across their faces isn't gelling, it's just playing like shit with no real sustained effort.

That said I'm not sure Schwartz getting hurt isn't addition by subtraction.

If Mosely and Walton can step up their games I think we'll be OK.


Again, nothing definitive/factual can be opined. Yes, the professionals know much more than you and I. We have Tv. They have film of every angle..As to physicality how the hell can you tell? Have you watched other OLs around the league? I doubt it..You have no idea what line calls there are. You have no idea how much confusion is there right now. It's a work in progress as it is EVERY pre-season, especially with limited practice time(per CBA)..Especially with a new OL..
I respect your opinion and experience  
Great White Ghost : 8/25/2014 5:21 pm : link
But I disagree with the premise you need to be calling plays or be a coach to be able to determine whether a player is effective or not.
RE: I respect your opinion and experience  
Big Blue '56 : 8/25/2014 5:23 pm : link
In comment 11824862 Great White Ghost said:
Quote:
But I disagree with the premise you need to be calling plays or be a coach to be able to determine whether a player is effective or not.


I hear you, but at least let us get into the first 1/3 of the season to see how well or how badly they mesh?
Not sure if it was TC or Parcells or perhaps another respected HC  
Big Blue '56 : 8/25/2014 5:25 pm : link
who said you really don't know what you have until you've played at least 4 games(regular season)
GBO  
Percy : 8/25/2014 5:35 pm : link
Illuminating post. Thanks.
BB'56  
Headhunter : 8/25/2014 5:38 pm : link
watch how many people get knocked out of suicide pools week1 see how many people go 5-11 in their pools week 1.
RE: Not sure if it was TC or Parcells or perhaps another respected HC  
Great White Ghost : 8/25/2014 5:44 pm : link
In comment 11824865 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
who said you really don't know what you have until you've played at least 4 games(regular season)

Well, often, most seasons, I make a preseason prediction about their record, how I think the team is going to do for the year.Like, waiting to see what they do is kinda checkenshit, at that point you already know.Last 2 SBs i called it before the season, abd hadn't called it any other time.

This year, I honestly have no idea.I don't know If Eli will bounce back, I don't know if the TEs wind up being effective orm w hole in the roster, I don't know how long it takes the line to come together or if they ever do.I don't know If MacAadoo will be worth a damn calling games.

I have to be honest, about the only thing I am certain about is that TC is a capable coach and will do his utmost to have them prepared every week.In a year when the focus is on everywhere but him, i think this year will be one of the most challenging, and maybe one of the most important
in retrospect for TCs legacy.
RE: Not sure if it was TC or Parcells or perhaps another respected HC  
SGMen : 8/25/2014 5:45 pm : link
In comment 11824865 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
who said you really don't know what you have until you've played at least 4 games(regular season)
BB'56, excellent point and I've heard that one before. Out of the gates versus Detroit we have to hope we run well, Eli doesn't turn it over, we win the battle of field position / ST's, and our defense really steps up and rattles Stafford. Sometimes, game 1, a team like Detroit won't really know much about our offense and maybe we surprise some. But teams figure things out quickly.
I'd say we won't know about this team til the 3rd game against a weaker Houston unit. We need a good start, a surprise start, cause I'm not so sure we can stand up to the better teams until later in the year.
RE: RE: Not sure if it was TC or Parcells or perhaps another respected HC  
Ten Ton Hammer : 8/25/2014 7:50 pm : link
In comment 11824895 Great White Ghost said:
Quote:
In comment 11824865 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


who said you really don't know what you have until you've played at least 4 games(regular season)


Well, often, most seasons, I make a preseason prediction about their record, how I think the team is going to do for the year.Like, waiting to see what they do is kinda checkenshit, at that point you already know.Last 2 SBs i called it before the season, abd hadn't called it any other time.



Lol
Welp. There you have it.  
arcarsenal : 8/25/2014 7:56 pm : link
The Great White Homophobe is an expert preseason prognosticator. Now I know how I'm determining my betting for the year.
hey, come here  
Great White Ghost : 8/25/2014 11:22 pm : link
I've got something for you
Link - ( New Window )
Gotta admit  
mrvax : 8/25/2014 11:55 pm : link
I'm concerned with Walton who in the BBI Giants/Jets review seems like a turd. Also, I've heard nothing good about Charlie Brown.

Will they stay with Walton at center and not even try Richburg at his natural position?
You have to take this stuff in context.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 8/26/2014 6:01 pm : link
Walton might have struggled a bit against the Jets, but they have a brilliant defensive line. Sheldon Richardson, Muhummad Wilkinson are animals, and overall he hasn't had a bad preseason.

If you move Richburg to Center, now you've weakened your other guard spot just to improve at center, since Walton can't play guard.
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