The practice squad is for guys that can practice. Guys that impersonate the opposing team. The scout team.
The practice squad is for linemen and backs.
It makes no sense to keep a kicker on the practice squad because you can't protect them there. Any team can pick them up at any time just like if they were free agents. Might as well just put them on the street and sign them later yourself if you have a need.
BTW - I think this is another sign that Giants are in win now mode. They kept the guy whose likely to better in the present than the guy with upside down the road.
especially when you consider that NYG is likely to being playing it close to the vest early on trying to win games on TOP, field position, defense and special teams.
Big kick with game on the line I'm sure TC would trust Brown over McManus every day.
McManus was going to be a weapon in the field position game (close to zero kickoff returns) and would give us a better shot at those 50+ yard field goals.
Brown isn't a bad kicker, he's just not a great one. And his ceiling is known. McManus has a cannon for a leg and a lot of room to grow.
is always loved until he shanks a gimme that costs you the game. I know Brown had some early season misses on very makeable FG's. He kicks deep into the end zone unlike sayLawrence Tynes. No problem going with the vet in a pressure spot
Veterans usually rule...not saying it's always bad
In today's NFL, with the shorter kickoffs, you don't really need a kicker with much power anymore. Josh Brown will reliably nail 45-yard and under kicks, and that's all you need. On average, a kicker will only attempt a 50-yard kick about 4 to 5 times in a season - just gotta hope that none of those 4 will be needed to win a game.
I believe Andy Stynchula (acquired with Dickie James in Huff trade)
Had a foolish long FG attempt blocked and returned for a TD vs the Cowboys and Cornell Green that may have cost the Giants second place and a place in the runner up bowl in Miami in 1965...also gave Landry his first post season game (even if meaningless) in year five at Dallas Link - ( New Window )
hired an employee, you know that you get a lot, that's A LOT, more than what you see at the interview. It could be good and it could be bad, but it is a risk.
McManus played well, but he was not clearly and substantially superior to Brown.
If only the Giants had this much talent to choose from at every position. Sigh!
In today's NFL, with the shorter kickoffs, you don't really need a kicker with much power anymore. Josh Brown will reliably nail 45-yard and under kicks, and that's all you need. On average, a kicker will only attempt a 50-yard kick about 4 to 5 times in a season - just gotta hope that none of those 4 will be needed to win a game.
For the kickers that can do it well, it is more like 6-7 times a season. And you have to figure a few of those are significant.
No crystal ball, but to the extent this season goes sideways, it may have been a good year to break in a new kicker like McManus who may develop into something valuable.
Iirc, Timberlake went 1-15..Is my memory that bad? That just sticks in my head
Bob Timberlake a triple threat QB from Michigan ... HE couldn't run, couldn't pass and couldn't kick though at the pro level ...
You remember right ... and if he were playing today ... there'd be no such thing as an automatic extra point ...
And in what I recall ... Andy Stynchula was actually better ...
In a way ... Timberlake was responsible for the merger - desperate for a kicker ... the Giants signed Gogalak in the off season ... and the merger became a necessity ...
RE: RE: I was hoping they'd hold onto McManus but this makes sense.
In today's NFL, with the shorter kickoffs, you don't really need a kicker with much power anymore. Josh Brown will reliably nail 45-yard and under kicks, and that's all you need. On average, a kicker will only attempt a 50-yard kick about 4 to 5 times in a season - just gotta hope that none of those 4 will be needed to win a game.
For the kickers that can do it well, it is more like 6-7 times a season. And you have to figure a few of those are significant.
No crystal ball, but to the extent this season goes sideways, it may have been a good year to break in a new kicker like McManus who may develop into something valuable.
Agree with the power argument, but I'd still have gone with McManus. His stronger leg could come into play on some FGs. But as others have said, TC strongly favors veterans, and I'm sure remembers the Dodge fiasco. Have to hope he doesn't end up on the Eagles.
The Giants also gave up a good young OL George Seals in that trade who played many years for the Bears, played both OL and DL...
Speaking of young kickers with the draft pick the a Giants received in the Huff trade they selected Frank Lambert a punter who lost out to RB Ernie Koy...to Sherman versatility mattered at least until the Timberlake (a QB as well) disaster....then the Giants signed Gogolak.
these 2 in practice (I admit I did not read too many of the camp reports). Just curious how a kicker can show he is substantially better in a game, unless the Giants were to bog down at the 50 and let McManus kick a 75 yarder in a game (as he apparently did in practice).
My guess this is purely a veteran over young player. I'd go with the you guy myself if he is that powerful and kicks out of the endzone, and is as accurate as Brown everywhere else.
attempting many 45+ yard FGs. They should be going for it on 4th down in most of those situation.
I'm fine with Brown. He's a reasonable veteran PK who should end up within a standard deviation of 85%, like just about all reasonable veteran PKs. It would've been nice to get McManus to do that for less money, but the Giants aren't exactly hurting for cap space this year, and it's not as if locking up a PK long-term is an especially significant asset for an NFL team.
. . . TC always goes with veterans. Josh Brown was fine last year, but he missed crucial kicks in the Carolina game and KC game when we desperately needed points. Although I think he only missed one other FG all year, I just don't have confidence in him. Anyway, as repeatedly mentioned, Coughlin is not only loyal to a fault, he has a strong preference for veterans. Sometimes it is the right move, sometimes it is not--in this case, I am afraid it is not. We will see.
at the high school level or higher understands that for coaches the most important game is the next one.
If it is determined that Josh Brown gives the Giants the best chance to win, which it seems was the case during this preseason, age would not be a factor in determining whom to keep.
McManus was going to be a weapon in the field position game (close to zero kickoff returns) and would give us a better shot at those 50+ yard field goals.
Brown isn't a bad kicker, he's just not a great one. And his ceiling is known. McManus has a cannon for a leg and a lot of room to grow.
I never once thought the Giants needed a new kicker.
Not even after the Chiefs game? I know that game wound up a blowout but that miss really took the momentum away from the team and they were playing about as good as they had all season at that point. It was an enormous miss.
He also missed a kick early in the Carolina game that took away any fight the team had in them before they were blown out.
we had a kicker that lined up from 40 yards or more and we didnt bite our fingers? I would never knock Tynes because of the two championship games, but even with him, it was always a nail biter from 40 yards out or more...
Probably will come back to this next year when Brown retires and we end up with some Matt Bryant-type replacement losing games for us, and hate this move.
This was not a surprise, despite the rending of panties.
I really, really don't like Brown, but...
1. McManus had problems with his technique; he's not consistent yet. He needs another year of working on said technique to be a consistent NFL kicker.
2. Kickers are valuable from 45 and in; Brown does this much better than McManus. A big leg is a shiny new toy, but it's becoming more of a norm for kickers nowadays. To think we can't find another big leg next year is a bit foolhardy.
3. Actual game experience matters. We know what Brown will do under pressure situations. McManus is an unknown. For McManus to have won, he needed to be about as equal in FG% as Brown was, from 45 and in. He wasn't.
4. McManus, with another year of practice, can be quite good. PS would be a fun little possibility.
5. The weapon is not Touchbacks. The weapon is mortar kicks, squib kicks, and deep kicks to keep the returner off the toes, but induce him to take it out and beat having the ball placed on the 20 OR get a turnover.
Would it surprise you to find out Tynes was a top 10 kicker, in the NFL, in opponent starting field position (when people were bemoaning just how shitty our coverage teams were)? Tynes was a master at mortar kicks. Brown is not very good at them, but McManus is simply awful.
That's due to his lack of consistency.
Touchbacks are nice, but the new breed of kickers are going to be able to do more than that. The only thing that's shortsighted is the thought that this is THE desirable feature of a kicker...
A team's need for a 50 - 55 yd Field goal kicker is also dependent on the overall offense. When the Giants have, lets say 4th down on the 35 it always has made more sense to either punt or give the ball to Eli depending on the situation. Keeping Josh Brown was the right move IMHO. If he retires in two years, worry about it then.
A team's need for a 50 - 55 yd Field goal kicker is also dependent on the overall offense. When the Giants have, lets say 4th down on the 35 it always has made more sense to either punt or give the ball to Eli depending on the situation. Keeping Josh Brown was the right move IMHO. If he retires in two years, worry about it then.
Yeah, usually as time runs out in the half or obviously at game's end
would have been huge in feild position and touchbacks with Tom Quinn coverage units. Also i know TC is going to start kicking every 50 yarder that comes his way but, end of games and end of halves nice to have a guy who can get your 3 point from 50 and give you shot from 60 if you need it, whatever, TC being TC.
I think the squib kick against the Jets that went out of bounds
last Friday is what did in McManus. Coughlin didn't look happy when McManus came to the sidelines after giving the Jets good field position. I thought then that Brown would be on the roster and McManus would be gone. Not sure I agree with the decision, but I do think that was the moment that the coach made up his mind. If Philly signs McManus, I will not be happy.
you need a 60 yarder to win a game is faw fewer than the number of missed 45 yarders that will lose a game.
You guys are acting as if Brown has the leg strength of Matt Bahr. Brown can kick 50+ yarders (and be about average in that aspect). This whole argument about upside also sounds a bit odd. Consistency is much more important than have the occasional outlier kick.
The practice squad is for guys that can practice. Guys that impersonate the opposing team. The scout team.
The practice squad is for linemen and backs.
It makes no sense to keep a kicker on the practice squad because you can't protect them there. Any team can pick them up at any time just like if they were free agents. Might as well just put them on the street and sign them later yourself if you have a need.
BTW - I think this is another sign that Giants are in win now mode. They kept the guy whose likely to better in the present than the guy with upside down the road.
Big kick with game on the line I'm sure TC would trust Brown over McManus every day.
Brown isn't a bad kicker, he's just not a great one. And his ceiling is known. McManus has a cannon for a leg and a lot of room to grow.
I always prefer the veteran, especially in the sports capital of the World
- Matt Dodge
Mike Lansford (Joe Danelo), Matt Stover ( Matt Bahr), Todd Peterson (David Treadwell), Orlindo Mare ( Brad Daluiso)
Iirc, Timberlake went 1-15..Is my memory that bad? That just sticks in my head
Link - ( New Window )
Misery loves company
McManus played well, but he was not clearly and substantially superior to Brown.
If only the Giants had this much talent to choose from at every position. Sigh!
For the kickers that can do it well, it is more like 6-7 times a season. And you have to figure a few of those are significant.
No crystal ball, but to the extent this season goes sideways, it may have been a good year to break in a new kicker like McManus who may develop into something valuable.
Quote:
And Bob Timberlake
Iirc, Timberlake went 1-15..Is my memory that bad? That just sticks in my head
Bob Timberlake a triple threat QB from Michigan ... HE couldn't run, couldn't pass and couldn't kick though at the pro level ...
You remember right ... and if he were playing today ... there'd be no such thing as an automatic extra point ...
And in what I recall ... Andy Stynchula was actually better ...
In a way ... Timberlake was responsible for the merger - desperate for a kicker ... the Giants signed Gogalak in the off season ... and the merger became a necessity ...
Quote:
In today's NFL, with the shorter kickoffs, you don't really need a kicker with much power anymore. Josh Brown will reliably nail 45-yard and under kicks, and that's all you need. On average, a kicker will only attempt a 50-yard kick about 4 to 5 times in a season - just gotta hope that none of those 4 will be needed to win a game.
For the kickers that can do it well, it is more like 6-7 times a season. And you have to figure a few of those are significant.
No crystal ball, but to the extent this season goes sideways, it may have been a good year to break in a new kicker like McManus who may develop into something valuable.
Agree with the power argument, but I'd still have gone with McManus. His stronger leg could come into play on some FGs. But as others have said, TC strongly favors veterans, and I'm sure remembers the Dodge fiasco. Have to hope he doesn't end up on the Eagles.
Speaking of young kickers with the draft pick the a Giants received in the Huff trade they selected Frank Lambert a punter who lost out to RB Ernie Koy...to Sherman versatility mattered at least until the Timberlake (a QB as well) disaster....then the Giants signed Gogolak.
My guess this is purely a veteran over young player. I'd go with the you guy myself if he is that powerful and kicks out of the endzone, and is as accurate as Brown everywhere else.
I'm fine with Brown. He's a reasonable veteran PK who should end up within a standard deviation of 85%, like just about all reasonable veteran PKs. It would've been nice to get McManus to do that for less money, but the Giants aren't exactly hurting for cap space this year, and it's not as if locking up a PK long-term is an especially significant asset for an NFL team.
I think McManus is a PS candidate. With 10 spots they have room.
If it is determined that Josh Brown gives the Giants the best chance to win, which it seems was the case during this preseason, age would not be a factor in determining whom to keep.
really disappointed by this move and what it says about moving forward.
Brown isn't a bad kicker, he's just not a great one. And his ceiling is known. McManus has a cannon for a leg and a lot of room to grow.
McManus could also be the next Matt Dodge
really disappointed by this move and what it says about moving forward.
HAHAHAHA. Wow.
Not even after the Chiefs game? I know that game wound up a blowout but that miss really took the momentum away from the team and they were playing about as good as they had all season at that point. It was an enormous miss.
He also missed a kick early in the Carolina game that took away any fight the team had in them before they were blown out.
They're second-to-last in the waiver order, so if any other teams are interested, they won't get the chance.
Brown was middle-of-the-pack in touchback% last year, which isn't bad for a guy with outdoor home games in the Northeast.
He'll be fine.
FWIW.
I really, really don't like Brown, but...
1. McManus had problems with his technique; he's not consistent yet. He needs another year of working on said technique to be a consistent NFL kicker.
2. Kickers are valuable from 45 and in; Brown does this much better than McManus. A big leg is a shiny new toy, but it's becoming more of a norm for kickers nowadays. To think we can't find another big leg next year is a bit foolhardy.
3. Actual game experience matters. We know what Brown will do under pressure situations. McManus is an unknown. For McManus to have won, he needed to be about as equal in FG% as Brown was, from 45 and in. He wasn't.
4. McManus, with another year of practice, can be quite good. PS would be a fun little possibility.
5. The weapon is not Touchbacks. The weapon is mortar kicks, squib kicks, and deep kicks to keep the returner off the toes, but induce him to take it out and beat having the ball placed on the 20 OR get a turnover.
Would it surprise you to find out Tynes was a top 10 kicker, in the NFL, in opponent starting field position (when people were bemoaning just how shitty our coverage teams were)? Tynes was a master at mortar kicks. Brown is not very good at them, but McManus is simply awful.
That's due to his lack of consistency.
Touchbacks are nice, but the new breed of kickers are going to be able to do more than that. The only thing that's shortsighted is the thought that this is THE desirable feature of a kicker...
Thanks.
Yeah, usually as time runs out in the half or obviously at game's end
Thanks.
I wished McManus would have won, but there are going to be crops of strong-legged kickers from now on.
You're seeing an evolution of the position.
You guys are acting as if Brown has the leg strength of Matt Bahr. Brown can kick 50+ yarders (and be about average in that aspect). This whole argument about upside also sounds a bit odd. Consistency is much more important than have the occasional outlier kick.