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trying to understand why SF asking 1st rounder for Boone

Andy in Boston : 8/27/2014 11:06 am
He's a good player...maybe a potential pro-bowler. Has been part of one of the best O lines in football , no doubt. And he's only 27.

downside...he's currently "holding out" even though he's under contract. He's been arrested twice in the last 7 years....for DUI and misconduct. He has never made a probowl...and has only started 32 games in the NFL.

Logan Mankins, who is arguabley one the best Guards in the last 10 years in the NFL was just traded for a 4th rounder and a backup tight-end. Yes I understand he's 32...but he's an immediate difference maker for Tampa's terrible oline.

Why on earth does SF think Boone is worth a 1st rounder?
Furthermore, if they think he's worth it, then why are the only offering a mediocre contract??? And they can afford more? Report today says that he was in fact NOT offere a contract worth being a top 12 Guard.

Baffling to me....
To me, he's worth a 3rd or 4th round pick.....
You always aim high...  
Britt in VA : 8/27/2014 11:07 am : link
and then negotiate. Or, they don't really want to move him.
I'm just trying to understand  
Andy in Boston : 8/27/2014 11:08 am : link
where they see the value... how do they determine he's worth a 1st round draft pick?
Logan Mankins is on the way down.  
Britt in VA : 8/27/2014 11:09 am : link
I guess they feel this guy is on the way up.
.  
arcarsenal : 8/27/2014 11:09 am : link
It's simple negotiating.

It's what Boone is doing and what SF is doing in the trade market. You always ask for more than you're willing to settle for with the idea in mind that you'll settle between what you expected and what you asked, which still nets you more than you thought you'd get.
who knows what the true value is  
UConn4523 : 8/27/2014 11:11 am : link
but why start negotiations with anything other than top dollar?
RE: I'm just trying to understand  
Ten Ton Hammer : 8/27/2014 11:11 am : link
In comment 11827413 Andy in Boston said:
Quote:
where they see the value... how do they determine he's worth a 1st round draft pick?


New England valued the cap space and the TE prospect they got more than Mankins.

SF wants Boone back. They don't actually want to trade him, so they set a prohibitive price if someone gets desperate.
NO more OL from SF  
shabu : 8/27/2014 11:11 am : link
NO more OL from SF please.
Britt  
Andy in Boston : 8/27/2014 11:12 am : link
but its about production.
How can you ask for a 1st rounder when he hasn't even made a probowl? I can't see how a team would give up a 1st or even 2nd rounder....Christ you risk giving up a Hall of Famer for Alex Boone.
I get  
Andy in Boston : 8/27/2014 11:14 am : link
the "aim high" thing....but they're clearly turning down trade offers....and the guy might not even play and they might be forced to cut him....they should try to at least get something for him....and at the same time be reasonable.
Trying to understand  
Giantology : 8/27/2014 11:14 am : link
your obsession with us trading for OL. Bro, it's not happening
they own his rights  
YAJ2112 : 8/27/2014 11:14 am : link
they can ask for whatever they want. Doesn't mean they will get it (or expect to get it or want to get it instead of keeping him). This isn't very difficult to understand.
I think Boone  
Andy in Boston : 8/27/2014 11:15 am : link
wants to be traded....I read something somewhere that said he's looking for a change in scenery. So, if I'm SF...I don't want a guy who doesn't want to be there.
The Patriots do not loyalty or emotion get in the way  
Defenderdawg : 8/27/2014 11:15 am : link
Mankins big contract, decline, able replacement on the roster, get a decent draft pick plus a serviceable TE with Gronkowski limited, no other suitable TE backup choices...

Boone is a younger player, the 49ers have a number of players in their mid to late 20's up for negotiation, why set a bad precedent by giving in and trading Boone quickly? It's not like the 49ers have massive needs outside of backup QB...any draft picks they get are for later...why not let it play out with Boone if you are SF?

Giantology  
Andy in Boston : 8/27/2014 11:16 am : link
I know....I have been obsessed with it. You've clearly seen my posts...lol
Boone can wish in one hand and shit in the other...  
Britt in VA : 8/27/2014 11:16 am : link
then see which one gets filled first.

He can want to be traded all he wants, but he's under contract.
.  
arcarsenal : 8/27/2014 11:16 am : link
They're not going to cut him. They actually need him and I suspect they'll figure out a way to retain him. You ask the moon and hope someone desperate caves but if not (which will be the likely scenario), they'll move forward and try to get something done to keep him there.
RE: Britt  
Ten Ton Hammer : 8/27/2014 11:17 am : link
In comment 11827428 Andy in Boston said:
Quote:
but its about production.
How can you ask for a 1st rounder when he hasn't even made a probowl? I can't see how a team would give up a 1st or even 2nd rounder....Christ you risk giving up a Hall of Famer for Alex Boone.


The Pro Bowl isn't really a means by which nfl front offices judge talent or production.
Thread recap  
Semipro Lineman : 8/27/2014 11:19 am : link
OP: Why is so and so happening?

Reasonable answer

OP: But why would they do that?

Other reasonable answers

OP: But, but, but

someone then explains it like they're talking a kid

OP: But why?
Ten Tom  
Andy in Boston : 8/27/2014 11:21 am : link
true....but they're not offering him a "1st round" type contract.
I'm clearly no pro personnel expert  
Andy in Boston : 8/27/2014 11:25 am : link
but if I'm an NFL team that's going to trade my 1st round pick for a Guard....I would hope he would be one of the top 3-4 guards in the NFL....I don't get the sense Boone is even close to that.
They have indicated a few times  
Beer Man : 8/27/2014 11:26 am : link
they don't want to trade him. But if someone is willing to overpay, well they can be persuaded
Have you been watching him play (I haven't)  
Britt in VA : 8/27/2014 11:26 am : link
or did you just look quickly at a couple of statistics on paper, before starting this thread, and come to that conclusion?
RE: NO more OL from SF  
Rob in NYC : 8/27/2014 11:27 am : link
In comment 11827427 shabu said:
Quote:
NO more OL from SF please.


Best post on the thread. No way we could use any of those scrubs.
They're asking for a 1st round pick  
pjcas18 : 8/27/2014 11:29 am : link
most likely because they don't want to trade him, they want him to play guard for them at the salary he's contracted to play guard for them.

This reminds me of the Pats trading Deon Branch, the team told his agent he had permission to shop branch and if they get a 1st round pick for him they'd trade him. Branch's agent found the sucker in Seattle and they traded Deon Branch for a 1st round pick.

Britt  
Andy in Boston : 8/27/2014 11:29 am : link
I've watched him since he was at Ohio St....and I want to say the Giants looked at him or had him in for a visit before he was drafted. I've watched him quite a few times in the last 3-4 years. He's, big , physical, nasty.
RE: Thread recap  
vibe4giants : 8/27/2014 11:32 am : link
In comment 11827450 Semipro Lineman said:
Quote:
OP: Why is so and so happening?

Reasonable answer

OP: But why would they do that?

Other reasonable answers

OP: But, but, but

someone then explains it like they're talking a kid

OP: But why?


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Quote:
'Would people feel better if we were 0-4, but playing better?

Andy in Boston : 8/23/2014 9:30 am


And

Quote:
Alex Boone

Andy in Boston : 8/22/2014 10:32 pm
what is the status on him now?

Boone. I think we need to trade for him. He'll take a few weeks to get ready...but the Giants need him. Thoughts?



Quote:
like they're talking to a kid



Well, there you go...  
Britt in VA : 8/27/2014 11:34 am : link
they probably don't want to lose him, but if he's going to hold out, then they can ask for the moon to show him "hey, we're willing to entertain offers, but this is how we value you" so we're not just going to let you walk for nothing.
If he has the cap room  
Defenderdawg : 8/27/2014 11:34 am : link
Andy Reid in KC might bite...they have huge OL problems and that could impact their chances in making a playoff appearance/run...I don't believe the Giants are that close or impatient...
RE: I'm just trying to understand  
Section331 : 8/27/2014 11:36 am : link
In comment 11827413 Andy in Boston said:
Quote:
where they see the value... how do they determine he's worth a 1st round draft pick?


"True value" is whatever a team is willing to pay. This is SF's way of saying that Boone is not on the block, unless someone is willing to blow them away with an offer.

Think about if someone came up to you and really wanted to buy your house. You have no intention to sell, but what the hell, you offer 150% of it's value. That's what is happening here.
It's simple  
Gman11 : 8/27/2014 11:36 am : link
They set a high price then say, "Hey, we put your name out there as available and got no takers. So, you can play for us or sit on your ass all season."
You don't give up a 1 or a 2  
Big Blue '56 : 8/27/2014 11:37 am : link
for a guy who most likely hurt his knee or severely pull his hammy once he gets here
will hurt  
Big Blue '56 : 8/27/2014 11:37 am : link
.
I still can't get over OB  
AnishPatel : 8/27/2014 11:41 am : link
and his fucking hammy. That shit has been hurt since mini camp I believe, lol. That's impressive to have something hurt that long. 5 freaking preseason games and the guy can't play in any of them.
Not to mention it could linger the entire year  
Big Blue '56 : 8/27/2014 11:46 am : link
given how frequently these guys re-tweak them
RE: Not to mention it could linger the entire year  
AnishPatel : 8/27/2014 11:50 am : link
In comment 11827516 Big Blue '56 said:
Quote:
given how frequently these guys re-tweak them


That would piss my off big time, and I am a very patient person. That's pissing away return on our investment in year 1. That would be utter bullshit if that happened.
RE: RE: Not to mention it could linger the entire year  
Britt in VA : 8/27/2014 11:51 am : link
In comment 11827523 AnishPatel said:
Quote:
In comment 11827516 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


given how frequently these guys re-tweak them



That would piss my off big time, and I am a very patient person. That's pissing away return on our investment in year 1. That would be utter bullshit if that happened.


Not to mention it will put way more heat on Eli than is deserved, for a poor performance, in a pivotal year.
RE: RE: Not to mention it could linger the entire year  
Big Blue '56 : 8/27/2014 11:55 am : link
In comment 11827523 AnishPatel said:
Quote:
In comment 11827516 Big Blue '56 said:


Quote:


given how frequently these guys re-tweak them



That would piss my off big time, and I am a very patient person. That's pissing away return on our investment in year 1. That would be utter bullshit if that happened.


Me too..Certainly not predicting it, but that's NOT one of my confident Giants' prognostications
To you he's worth a 3rd/4th round pick  
JonC : 8/27/2014 12:03 pm : link
but he's a pro bowl potential at the same time, on one of the best OLs in the NFL. Incongruent logic. Apples to oranges with regards to Mankins, who is 32 and been in decline.

SF has the leverage here and he's under contract, ask high, and then negotiate as required. Common sense.

Still, the big extension he wants is the fact that makes a trade less desirable.

You will recall that the Giants adopted the same tactic  
Carthonfan : 8/27/2014 12:04 pm : link
with Osi a few years back. They were asking for a 1st or 2nd rounder and when the market spoke (no takers), Osi returned to the table. This is an entirely reasonable tactic.
Preferring, per usual, to wait until the bullets fly for real  
Big Blue '56 : 8/27/2014 12:06 pm : link
before giving my armchair opinions, I can give my only two major negative opinions to date:

1-I expect ODB to be hampered on and off with hammy issues, as Miles Austin and many others are or have been

2-JPP will never come close to 2011 again, at least for us

That's the full extent of my negative OPINIONS to date
RE: You will recall that the Giants adopted the same tactic  
Matt in SGS : 8/27/2014 12:44 pm : link
In comment 11827556 Carthonfan said:
Quote:
with Osi a few years back. They were asking for a 1st or 2nd rounder and when the market spoke (no takers), Osi returned to the table. This is an entirely reasonable tactic.


Bingo. I was about to post this. The Giants didn't want to trade Osi because his salary was where the Giants were comfortable and he fit their scheme. In order to contemplate trading him, it had to be worth their while, ie- a very steep price, to make it worth it.

Osi asked for a trade. The Giants told him to go ahead and try to find one, but he had to bring back a first rounder. When he couldn't do it, Osi got the message and came back to work (the Giants would end up throwing some extra $$ his way on his last year of his deal anyway).

The Niners are doing this very same thing to Boone. Time is on the Niners' side here. If they are going to deal him, they are going to get maximum value, to the point that other teams likely won't do it and force his hand. You always hear about hold outs, but very few guys are willing to forgo that paycheck when the season starts to force their way on to another team and a new deal.
Mankins  
Doomster : 8/27/2014 1:25 pm : link
played the entire 2011 season for the Pats, supposedly with a partial tear to his ACL or MCL, not sure which....their OL was hurting that year, and he stuck it out "for the team"....

Did doing so, cause his diminished play, the last two years?

Guess what his "reward" for doing so, was? Ask Malloy, Branch, Seymore, Welker, etc.

As stated, Mankins is on his way down, Boone on his way up....all they got for Mankins is an undrafted TE, and a 4th round pick? What does that say?

Boone,younger, supposedly able to step right in as a starter with some coaching....much higher ceiling....but comes with baggage.....and wants big money...has Reese learned from Snee, Beatty, Baas, Schwartz?

Has he learned that better drafting of OLmen in the 1st and 2nd rounds, is better than signing linemen for big bucks, that hamper your cap?
RE: Mankins  
Semipro Lineman : 8/27/2014 2:05 pm : link
In comment 11827747 Doomster said:
Quote:
...has Reese learned from Snee, Beatty, Baas, Schwartz?

Has he learned that better drafting of OLmen in the 1st and 2nd rounds, is better than signing linemen for big bucks, that hamper your cap?


You know what I love about you, Lil Doomie. Is your ability to contradict yourself in only two sentences. Snee and Beatty were 2nd round draft picks by the Giants. Also love how your throwing in Schwartz as an example of high price Olineman with baggage after only one preseason. Beside the fact that Schwartz having an average salary of around $4 million really doesn't make him a big ticket free agent but keep banging the drum...
RE: I'm just trying to understand  
Great White Ghost : 8/27/2014 2:30 pm : link
In comment 11827413 Andy in Boston said:
Quote:
where they see the value... how do they determine he's worth a 1st round draft pick?
He's worth it because they aren't inclined to trade him. The team has the leverage. In the end whats he going to do, sit out the season?
He could go the Jeremy Shockey route and pick a yelling fight with the GM and hope he blows a gasket and trades him, but I wouldn't bank on that.

Point is they don't WANT to trade him. If someone makes it worth their while by giving them a great deal they will. Otherwise they will let him stew in his own juices. Once he starts forfeiting gamechecks his attitude may change. Until then Denver doesn't have to do anything. We see this all the time, and most often there is movement on both sides at the end, or simply the players side. Very rarely do the players simply get their way in these matters.Denver isn't interested in a zero sum trade. If they make one it's going to be worth their while. That doesn't mean he's worth a 1st rounder, just that it's the position the Broncos are taking that benefits them the most.
RE: RE: I'm just trying to understand  
YAJ2112 : 8/27/2014 2:51 pm : link
In comment 11827882 Great White Ghost said:
Quote:
In comment 11827413 Andy in Boston said:


Quote:


where they see the value... how do they determine he's worth a 1st round draft pick?

He's worth it because they aren't inclined to trade him. The team has the leverage. In the end whats he going to do, sit out the season?
He could go the Jeremy Shockey route and pick a yelling fight with the GM and hope he blows a gasket and trades him, but I wouldn't bank on that.

Point is they don't WANT to trade him. If someone makes it worth their while by giving them a great deal they will. Otherwise they will let him stew in his own juices. Once he starts forfeiting gamechecks his attitude may change. Until then Denver doesn't have to do anything. We see this all the time, and most often there is movement on both sides at the end, or simply the players side. Very rarely do the players simply get their way in these matters.Denver isn't interested in a zero sum trade. If they make one it's going to be worth their while. That doesn't mean he's worth a 1st rounder, just that it's the position the Broncos are taking that benefits them the most.


Interesting take on Denver's stance in this situation. I wonder how San Francisco is thinking?
San fransisco thinks he's worth a first rounder.  
Great White Ghost : 8/27/2014 3:04 pm : link






Dammit....
it must tick boone off  
Dave : 8/27/2014 5:16 pm : link
they think he's worth a premium pick but they don't want to pay him as a premium player
I think a better question to ask is....  
kmed : 8/27/2014 5:20 pm : link
"Trying to understand how negotiations and the trade market works".

IF a trade actually happens and they get a 1st(unlikely), you can then ask:

Trying to understand how San Fran got a 1st for Boone.
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