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Something to revisit about Eli with a week to go

Ben in Tampa : 8/27/2014 4:30 pm
his offensive line is poor. Red-shirt freshman left tackle. Eli doesn't trust his protection. Can't. No way he can take any form of a deep drop and look downfield. With no running game (10 yards rushing the first half) and no real top receivers, he's stuck with the three-step drops and waiting til the last second to see if a receiver can get free. No tight end either. No flaring back. So he's taking some big hits. Taking them well. Carried an overmatched team entirely on his shoulders.

- Ernie Accorsi, 11/2/02

Sound familiar?
.  
kepler20 : 8/27/2014 4:32 pm : link
I saw this story, 2013 called and said we missed the playoffs and went 7-9


ELI IS NOT SUPERMAN. He needs help, TC and Reese havent given him the protection he needs to be successful the last 2 years.
Thanks for the post  
exiled : 8/27/2014 4:33 pm : link
This forum needs a reminder of how great Eli can be.
Great call Ben.  
LI NHB : 8/27/2014 4:37 pm : link
I think this last preseason game is actually quite important in terms of getting some ball movement and confidence build back up before the games count.

I would not be upset if Coughlin rode the starters for longer than usual tomorrow.
You really can't blame eli for the giants struggles  
ANGPASS : 8/27/2014 4:51 pm : link
only thing i get annoyed with eli is that he forces throws to wrs. Some times i understand he is trying to make something happen, however, he needs to understand it is not working and he is adding to the damage. However, you can tell he forces throws early because he literally has almost no time. This O line is hard to judge. it can be because they have to chemistry or they just suck.

I know pugh is good. and apparently richburg is really good. beatty is average which i can accept. he has always been average. Schwartz is not as impressive as we though he would be and mosely is exactly what we thought. Walton doesn seem to be that bad. he seems average. but there are too many average players who have no chemistry. that is a problem. only pugh and beatty were playing OL last year. but they were on the end of the line and not next to each other which i think is a big deal.

They seem to be able to run well, but they suck at pass blocking. and the rush always seems to be up the middle. eli can only avoid so many sacks. he isn't russell wilson.
This has been a meme here but is it true?  
HomerJones45 : 8/27/2014 5:22 pm : link
According to Advance Football Analytics, Giant qb's were hit 70 times last season- good for 17th in the League and he was sacked 40 times, good for 12th in the League. NFL.com had him sacked 39 times, tied with Alex Smith and

By comparison, Brady was hit 71 times and that profile in courage Cutler was hit 67 times. Luck should be shell shocked as he was hit 95 times. Russell Wilson was hit 79 times and sacked 39 times.

In truth, Manning's protection wasn't great but it wasn't as awful as the prevailing BBI meme would make it.
This holds true for all  
mrvax : 8/27/2014 5:42 pm : link
quarterbacks. If your Oline can't pass block, your QB can't pass.
Yes, but here's the problem  
NYGmen58 : 8/27/2014 5:46 pm : link
Eli could get away with that when he was in his early 20s, but not in his 30s.

You can't keep asking him to keep taking these hits week in and week out. The man is 33 and while that's by no means old for a QB, it's going to catch up to him at somepoint (see last year).

If the line does not improve significantly, we can't expect much out of Eli.
...  
Toth029 : 8/27/2014 5:47 pm : link
So the poor OL of 2013 is just a meme. Got it.
I'll never forget  
mrvax : 8/27/2014 5:50 pm : link
certain things, good and bad. Allowing David Diehl to play last year was a travesty. I hope this Oline improves. It's the key right now to the Giant's season. Eli will be fine if the Oline protects him.

RE: This has been a meme here but is it true?  
shabu : 8/27/2014 5:53 pm : link
In comment 11828187 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
According to Advance Football Analytics, Giant qb's were hit 70 times last season- good for 17th in the League and he was sacked 40 times, good for 12th in the League. NFL.com had him sacked 39 times, tied with Alex Smith and

By comparison, Brady was hit 71 times and that profile in courage Cutler was hit 67 times. Luck should be shell shocked as he was hit 95 times. Russell Wilson was hit 79 times and sacked 39 times.

In truth, Manning's protection wasn't great but it wasn't as awful as the prevailing BBI meme would make it.


interesting.
RE: This has been a meme here but is it true?  
Randy in CT : 8/27/2014 5:56 pm : link
In comment 11828187 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
According to Advance Football Analytics, Giant qb's were hit 70 times last season- good for 17th in the League and he was sacked 40 times, good for 12th in the League. NFL.com had him sacked 39 times, tied with Alex Smith and

By comparison, Brady was hit 71 times and that profile in courage Cutler was hit 67 times. Luck should be shell shocked as he was hit 95 times. Russell Wilson was hit 79 times and sacked 39 times.

In truth, Manning's protection wasn't great but it wasn't as awful as the prevailing BBI meme would make it.
How about when we factor in WRs not being open or running the wrong routes?
RE: This has been a meme here but is it true?  
Mason : 8/27/2014 6:01 pm : link
In comment 11828187 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
According to Advance Football Analytics, Giant qb's were hit 70 times last season- good for 17th in the League and he was sacked 40 times, good for 12th in the League. NFL.com had him sacked 39 times, tied with Alex Smith and

By comparison, Brady was hit 71 times and that profile in courage Cutler was hit 67 times. Luck should be shell shocked as he was hit 95 times. Russell Wilson was hit 79 times and sacked 39 times.

In truth, Manning's protection wasn't great but it wasn't as awful as the prevailing BBI meme would make it.


It has been mentioned but considered crazy talk.
So, Eli wasn't hit or sacked as much as some of those guys..  
arcarsenal : 8/27/2014 6:07 pm : link
How often was he pressured?
By rate (%), Giants' QBs were the 6th most pressured last year.  
Riggies : 8/27/2014 6:12 pm : link
12th most in 2012, and most in 2011.

If you give put any value to PFF's actual grading, they graded the Giants' pass blocking as 31st in 2013, 20th in 2012, and 32nd in 2011.
RE: So, Eli wasn't hit or sacked as much as some of those guys..  
dep026 : 8/27/2014 6:15 pm : link
In comment 11828238 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
How often was he pressured?


So funny how HomerJones and his fucktard thinking fails to mentioned that.

He was the 29th most pressured QB going by percentage of throws.
Homer the Hater - ( New Window )
Actually, I was wrong. They were third by % of dropbacks in 2011.  
Riggies : 8/27/2014 6:16 pm : link
They were most/first in total of pressures.

All the same, they've sucked for awhile now, contrary to Mason, who believes Eli has had the best protection of his career the past four years.
Exactly.  
arcarsenal : 8/27/2014 6:17 pm : link
Not getting sacked or hit the most does not = good protection.

But don't tell HJ45 that.
If you're going to cite stats about how often Eli was hit,  
CT Charlie : 8/27/2014 6:17 pm : link
you should include total number of plays. I'm guessing Brady and Luck were on the field for many more plays than Eli because of their teams' ability to sustain drives.

Love to see a team-by-team comparison of 3-and-outs.

I say this out of sympathy for Eli, not out of criticism.
RE: If you're going to cite stats about how often Eli was hit,  
dep026 : 8/27/2014 6:19 pm : link
In comment 11828252 CT Charlie said:
Quote:
you should include total number of plays. I'm guessing Brady and Luck were on the field for many more plays than Eli because of their teams' ability to sustain drives.

Love to see a team-by-team comparison of 3-and-outs.

I say this out of sympathy for Eli, not out of criticism.


Why do it by a number though. Percentage of plays is far more accurate than anything. 27.5% of the time, Eli went back, he got pressured. Almost twice as much as his brother. rivers, Romo, Ben, Rodgers sat at 22% Brady was at 20%
RE: Actually, I was wrong. They were third by % of dropbacks in 2011.  
Mason : 8/27/2014 6:35 pm : link
In comment 11828248 Riggies said:
Quote:
They were most/first in total of pressures.

All the same, they've sucked for awhile now, contrary to Mason, who believes Eli has had the best protection of his career the past four years.


My point has always been that Eli has never had the best pass pro during his career. Run blocking was always where that OL shined. Younger Eli was able to escape the pocket and withstand pressure.
RE: Actually, I was wrong. They were third by % of dropbacks in 2011.  
shabu : 8/27/2014 6:48 pm : link
In comment 11828248 Riggies said:
Quote:
They were most/first in total of pressures.

All the same, they've sucked for awhile now, contrary to Mason, who believes Eli has had the best protection of his career the past four years.


These are the right stats, thanks man.
grrr  
crick78 : 8/27/2014 7:31 pm : link
Not all hits, sacks, pressures are equal. Pressure from the tackles eli can deal with, pressure from inside is poison to all qbs.
RE: grrr  
shabu : 8/27/2014 8:03 pm : link
In comment 11828320 crick78 said:
Quote:
Not all hits, sacks, pressures are equal. Pressure from the tackles eli can deal with, pressure from inside is poison to all qbs.


Yet another good point last year it came up the middle and over right guard more than elsewhere.

Giant system feasts on the long ball  
xman : 8/27/2014 8:31 pm : link
so Eli holds it longer and gets pressured.
Forget pressure for a second  
djm : 8/27/2014 8:39 pm : link
And remember that Eli had absolutely no running game to speak of. I mean that literally. No running game. No running backs on this team that even resembled professional status until the slow plodding Peyton hillis came along. Then the running game went from historical bad to just plain bad.

RE: RE: This has been a meme here but is it true?  
lecky : 8/27/2014 9:18 pm : link
In comment 11828221 Randy in CT said:
Quote:
In comment 11828187 HomerJones45 said:


Quote:


According to Advance Football Analytics, Giant qb's were hit 70 times last season- good for 17th in the League and he was sacked 40 times, good for 12th in the League. NFL.com had him sacked 39 times, tied with Alex Smith and

By comparison, Brady was hit 71 times and that profile in courage Cutler was hit 67 times. Luck should be shell shocked as he was hit 95 times. Russell Wilson was hit 79 times and sacked 39 times.

In truth, Manning's protection wasn't great but it wasn't as awful as the prevailing BBI meme would make it.

How about when we factor in WRs not being open or running the wrong routes?



Great Post Ben, but I see some people just do not get it
bottom line  
SBlue46 : 8/28/2014 8:01 am : link
All excuses aside...he played under pressure before
and was good...but never was a good short passer
or had touch . Acorsci once described eli as tough
qb who sat in pocket and would make a big throw
and win the game..thats eli...this offense is not him
The bigger problem is the lack of a consistent big play wide receiver  
BlueHurricane : 8/28/2014 8:28 am : link
When Eli first started struggling we heard Gilbride time and again talk about how much having a hobbled Nicks hurt the passing game. Well we still have not replaced the Nicks that was kicking ass during the Super Bowl run. Watching Hard Knocks and seeing what a true elite receiver like Julio Jones can do for not only a QB but for the players around him cannot be understated.

This offense needs ODB to turn out to be a true first round big play making receiver.
RE: grrr  
chuckydee9 : 8/28/2014 9:38 am : link
In comment 11828320 crick78 said:
Quote:
Not all hits, sacks, pressures are equal. Pressure from the tackles eli can deal with, pressure from inside is poison to all qbs.


Yep... The PFF stats don't differentiate that nor do they differentiate between close games and blowouts... If you are getting blown out, opposition stops pressuring as much and plays prevent, hence less pressures and a much lower % of pressure... Just look at the first Q of Carolina game last year... I think he got pressure on every play.... After they had basically won the game, they stopped applying the same kind of pressure but if they wanted to, they could have pressured us all day hence even the percentage is skewed against Eli...

The only thing I worry about him now is the arm.. I keep seeing him through a few yards shorter than he should be throwing on the deep plays.. in 2011 those receivers won't have to slow down to try and catch the ball...
homerjones continues to be the worst poster in the history of this  
GMenLTS : 8/28/2014 9:54 am : link
board at evaluating quarterback play.

On the bright side, at least he's always anxious to remind us of this at every turn.
I think some people....  
damdevs : 8/28/2014 11:50 am : link
fail to realize that his completion %, which isn't very good, is a direct correlation as to how much pressure Eli gets.

I think Eli over his career has done a real nice job of feeling the pressure, move around the pocket or get out of it and just being able to throw the ball away to avoid taking sacks. This always has led to a lower completion % for him. However, I think the last couple year as he gets older he's struggled with this so it's led to higher sack totals. He just isn't as athletic as he once was.

My point is 8-10 years ago Eli made average OL look really good, but as he has gotten older he needs a better OL around him to make this offense work.

You'll see Jennings, Hillis and Williams(just pray that he learning to pick up the blitz better) be kept in more for pass protection if this OL doesn't jell early this season.
RE: RE: grrr  
Riggies : 8/28/2014 12:00 pm : link
In comment 11828848 chuckydee9 said:
Quote:
In comment 11828320 crick78 said:


Quote:


Not all hits, sacks, pressures are equal. Pressure from the tackles eli can deal with, pressure from inside is poison to all qbs.



Yep... The PFF stats don't differentiate that nor do they differentiate between close games and blowouts... If you are getting blown out, opposition stops pressuring as much and plays prevent, hence less pressures and a much lower % of pressure... Just look at the first Q of Carolina game last year... I think he got pressure on every play.... After they had basically won the game, they stopped applying the same kind of pressure but if they wanted to, they could have pressured us all day hence even the percentage is skewed against Eli... .

The general raw pressures numbers don't take into account anything of that sort (and they're not PFF specific; dep linked FO and they match up -- he just referenced individual QBs instead of team QB like I did).

You can dismiss it entirely if you want still, but PFF's grading, however, absolutely tries to take into account how long a QB holds the ball, situation, etc. and the Giants OLs don't come out any better in pass pro by that attempted measure (again, being 31st, 20th, and 32nd the last three years).
RE: I'll never forget  
Optimus-NY : 8/28/2014 1:02 pm : link
In comment 11828213 mrvax said:
Quote:
certain things, good and bad. Allowing David Diehl to play last year was a travesty. I hope this Oline improves. It's the key right now to the Giant's season. Eli will be fine if the Oline protects him.


Agreed. about Diehl last year. That was a travesty.
RE: If you're going to cite stats about how often Eli was hit,  
nicky43 : 8/28/2014 2:19 pm : link
In comment 11828252 CT Charlie said:
Quote:
you should include total number of plays. I'm guessing Brady and Luck were on the field for many more plays than Eli because of their teams' ability to sustain drives.

Love to see a team-by-team comparison of 3-and-outs.

I say this out of sympathy for Eli, not out of criticism.


Good post CT.....BINGO!
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