Eli and perception

at some point you have to quit making excuses for the man. And just face the fact that he's lost it and it's pretty much over

is reality. No matter who you fault the offense looks like a jigsaw puzzle with mismatched pieces. Mara bitched about the offense was broken and needed to be fixed so they force out Gilbride who let's be honest had nothing to work with last year.

So to fix the problem they bring in a guy who was never a coordinator before and never called a play in his life in the NFL. meanwhile guys like Norv Turner were floating around out there who have a track record. Makes sense to me.

I think with the fact they have a stable of running backs and a rebuilt offensive line Gilbride would have benefited from that and Eli wouldn't be zero for the preseason.

left the station early this morning I see.

I am not anointing Nassib the starting job by any means, but don't you guys see the way the ball travels when he throws it as opposed to Eli (tight spiral, accurate, nice zip)? Do you see how he can move around with reasonable NFL QB athleticism? You don't see those things from Eli - or at least you haven't in a long while.

I think Nassib has a shot. I really do. Granted he played mostly against second team players but he looks like he more comfortable with whatever the heck they are doing then Eli. Eli,does not look like he has a clue what he is doing out there.

It's not that Eli suddenly forgot how to read defenses or play the position, right now he does not look like a good fit for this offense.

In comment 11830801 JOMO25 said:

Quote:

left the station early this morning I see. I am not anointing Nassib the starting job by any means, but don't you guys see the way the ball travels when he throws it as opposed to Eli (tight spiral, accurate, nice zip)? Do you see how he can move around with reasonable NFL QB athleticism? You don't see those things from Eli - or at least you haven't in a long while.

Do you see an O-line that can consistently give the QB time to get to the top of his drop and make a read? Do you see a WR besides Cruz that's worth a shit? Do you see an NFL caliber TE? I sure don't - or at least I haven't in a long while.

In comment 11830809 blueblood'11 said:

Quote:

I think Nassib has a shot. I really do. Granted he played mostly against second team players but he looks like he more comfortable with whatever the heck they are doing then Eli. Eli,does not look like he has a clue what he is doing out there. It's not that Eli suddenly forgot how to read defenses or play the position, right now he does not look like a good fit for this offense.

It is a brand new offense in pre-season that they are installing as they go, week to week. It's not a finished product. I'm guessing we won't really see a total package until a few games into the season at earliest.

Do you know how long it takes to install a new offense, and have everybody get it and be on the same page, running it efficiently?

Not to mention the hindurance of all of the new CBA rules that limit and reduce practice time.

I think the lack of patience with the fanbase is unfortunate.

In comment 11830811 Britt in VA said:

Quote:

In comment 11830809 blueblood'11 said: Quote: I think Nassib has a shot. I really do. Granted he played mostly against second team players but he looks like he more comfortable with whatever the heck they are doing then Eli. Eli,does not look like he has a clue what he is doing out there. It's not that Eli suddenly forgot how to read defenses or play the position, right now he does not look like a good fit for this offense. It is a brand new offense in pre-season that they are installing as they go, week to week. It's not a finished product. I'm guessing we won't really see a total package until a few games into the season at earliest. Do you know how long it takes to install a new offense, and have everybody get it and be on the same page, running it efficiently? Not to mention the hindurance of all of the new CBA rules that limit and reduce practice time.

It took until week two with the Chargers last year.

I don't understand the Eli hysteria that's caused by the pre-season. Eli's struggled since the middle of 2012. Him performing poorly in pre-season doesn't mean anything to me. I think he'll be fine.

Tell me how Chip Kelly was able to do it so fast in Phlly with an entirely new coaching staff nonetheless and an unproven quarterback who went 27 and 2 TD's to INT's.

Their OL was solid, and they have good backs and WR's. We probably will have good backs, but our OL and WR's are huge question marks.

His poor performance coincides precicely with the day a certain schmuck that I know encountered him and his family in midtown and asked and received a hug from Eli. With hot ass Abby right there....probably lead to marital strife as well as a case of the cooties.

Eli's strength as a passer is his long range accuracy. He throws it down the field and with accuracy better then anyone in the game. Now they want him to dink and dunk and less of what he does best.

and were 3-5 before finally getting it together mid-season.

is make it so there's a legitimate reason to only carry 2 QBs. Unless there's an injury, I doubt he'll be taking over for Eli this season.

Let this new OL gel. Let this new system get some real game experience. Let's hope they can get a real TE from the waiver wire, and FFS, let's see some of the receivers get some separation.

It's not Eli and Eli alone who's broken, it's pretty much all of the offense except for the run game.

But every piece that is broken can be fixed. The question is how long will it take.

The Giants wide outs are as good as the Eagles. Where they excel is at the tightend position. Giants have none they have three capable tightends.

In comment 11830820 blueblood'11 said:

Quote:

Eli's strength as a passer is his long range accuracy. He throws it down the field and with accuracy better then anyone in the game. Now they want him to dink and dunk and less of what he does best.

We aren't running a dink and dunk offense (or a West Coast one). I agree with you that Eli's strengths are incompatible with a dink and dunk offense. With that said, we were able to run screens effectively when we had a capable back in Tiki. I'd like to see more of those, but that doesn't mean we're moving away from what Eli does best.

True. But you could see what was coming with them. I only hope we start to see that with,the Giants. I think the running game may be the elixir that gets this passing game going.

In comment 11830823 blueblood'11 said:

Quote:

The Giants wide outs are as good as the Eagles. Where they excel is at the tightend position. Giants have none they have three capable tightends.

Talent wise, perhaps, but execution wise, I really disagree. On paper last year, ours was great - but the performance sucked. I'd say we have quite a bit of talent there this year as well, but if Randle continues being an idiot and ODB can't get on the field, that doesn't mean anything.

they were 3-5 at the midway point. They then got it together and went 7-1 to finish the season.

It didn't happen overnight. It took time. It will take time here.

The west coast offense is not a verticle offense. It goes against the frequency of the the long range pass. Eli is terrific when given the time to throw fifteen and plus. He has never been great at dinking and dunking.

In comment 11830830 Britt in VA said:

Quote:

they were 3-5 at the midway point. They then got it together and went 7-1 to finish the season. It didn't happen overnight. It took time. It will take time here.

They were still putting up points in the first six games, though. Sucked in seven and eight, and then went on a tear.

I think any struggles early on will have more to do with our lack of talent at certain positions than the transition to a new offense.

In comment 11830834 blueblood'11 said:

Quote:

The west coast offense is not a verticle offense. It goes against the frequency of the the long range pass. Eli is terrific when given the time to throw fifteen and plus. He has never been great at dinking and dunking.

We aren't running a WCO, though.

In comment 11830835 BrettNYG10 said:

Quote:

In comment 11830830 Britt in VA said: Quote: they were 3-5 at the midway point. They then got it together and went 7-1 to finish the season. It didn't happen overnight. It took time. It will take time here. They were still putting up points in the first six games, though. Sucked in seven and eight, and then went on a tear. I think any struggles early on will have more to do with our lack of talent at certain positions than the transition to a new offense.

I think what the Eagles were running under Andy Reid was much closer in philosophy to what Chip Kelly runs, as compared to the polar opposites that our old and new offense are.

.

on live TV if he has lost any confidence, Eli's reaction which was spontaneous told me all I need to know how Eli feels

...since back a couple of seasons ago. It should be obvious that his glory days are long gone, and frankly what may actually kill this season is not so much Eli...but Tom's stubbornness to bench him. They may both be gone next year.

In comment 11830845 silverfox said:

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...since back a couple of seasons ago. It should be obvious that his glory days are long gone, and frankly what may actually kill this season is not so much Eli...but Tom's stubbornness to bench him. They may both be gone next year.

We'll see.

From what I saw. You have to run the right routes, you have to hold on to the ball, and you have to get separation.

proposing.

In their first 6 games, they scored:

33
30
16
20
36
31

I wasn't until Week 7 that they failed to score less than 10 pts in a game.

Year. They're a terrible example. Through the first six games they averaged 27.67 PPG, then had two terrible games in weeks seven and eight with three and seven point games respectively. They ended the season with a 27.6 PPG average. It did accelerate in the back half of the season, averaging 33.25 PPG in the last eight games, but there was no initial struggle.

Brady drafted in 1999 and Peyton drafted in 1998 Eli in 2004 Ben and Rivers too. But the only one on his QB deathbed is Eli. Interesting

I just responded to the fact that it was stated, not just on this thread, that there were no growing pains for Chip Kelly and the Eagles last year.

Their record does not indicate that.

The Eagles struggles were initially on the defensive side of the ball.

I'd say, as I said earlier in the thread, that Chip Kelly's offense and Andy Reids offensive philosophy were much closer, and had the players that fit the system already in place.

And it's not like Nick Foles busted out of the gates, guns blazing. He didn't even really play until week 5, and didn't really start consistently performing until after midseason.

...failed to score more than 10 pts

Chip Kelly got one of the best Offensive lines in football to work with. The reason they went from 5-11 to 10-6 is their offensive line was healthy in 2013. They got the best left tackle in football back in Jason Peters. That helped a lot. You give Chip Kelly our offensive line from last year, Nick Foles and Mike Vick are dead.

Quote:

Their record does not indicate that.

That's probably more attributable to their defense than their offense.

The point people were making is that the Eagles didn't have much growing pains with their new offense, and the numbers support that.

There are still two other components of the game, defense and specials, that also play a part in whether or not they win or lose.

If a teams averages 27+ pts a game over 6 games to start a season and are only 3-3 at that point, I find it hard to chalk that up to offensive growing pains.

Doesn't look good at all

In comment 11830836 BrettNYG10 said:

Quote:

In comment 11830834 blueblood'11 said: Quote: The west coast offense is not a verticle offense. It goes against the frequency of the the long range pass. Eli is terrific when given the time to throw fifteen and plus. He has never been great at dinking and dunking. We aren't running a WCO, though.

And this is the critical point that people seem to be missing. There's been a melding of the long-ball, big play offense with a needed movement toward and awareness of the need to have a short game available at need, including a strong running game.

Look at it like golf. Sam Snead said it best, "You drive for show, but you putt for dough." The long game is alive and well, the running game has been bolstered, and the plan is in place for shorter screens, slants, outlets, etc.

Once these elements come together, along with that most critical piece, the O-Line, you'll see how it works. If anyone seriously thinks that an extraordinarily astute football mind like Coughlin doesn't understand all this, then I suspect that there is either ignorance or extreme bias in play.

In comment 11830821 Britt in VA said:

Quote:

and were 3-5 before finally getting it together mid-season.

It's playoffs or bust IMO. If the status quo and changes don't work, what's left? He's not getting awarded an extension. How many play out their contract?

is inside the Giants organization. Nassib is NOT an option to replace Eli Manning in 2014. No way. No how. Not until and unless the Giants were statistically eliminated from the playoffs.

And that's because they are professionals whose jobs are on the line - unlike fans who think they know more than the prs (and who, if they had a million dollar salary on the line, wouldn't be talking about Nassib for 1 solitary second either).

becomes at minimum a consistently average group. They seem to be able to run block ok, at least up the middle and to the right, so lets see if McAdoo is smart enough to go with what they can do best or if he will be pig headed like Gilbride and force the issue with the WC passing attack.

season is over.

is the immediacy of reactions and the wealth of football shows that have to make noise.

I keep harkening back to the days of Archie Manning. The fact that he had a horrific OL and a poor overall team around him every year didn't have people talking about what a crappy QB he was.

There are a lot of QB's who suffer with a subpar OL. Romo is a more modern example. Bledsoe in Buffalo was never able to regain form because he had no protection. We saw how Ben R. is even ineffective without a line.

With Eli being in NY and there being so many talking heads, it is no wonder he gets in the crosshairs.

Or maybe New Orleans has some voodoo spell that prohibits people talking about shitty QB play. Brees caught very little shit for his high INT totals.

any of us think Nassib will start but its good to see that he has promise and may very well make a run at the starting gig if Eli continues to be a mess

In comment 11830900 baadbill said:

Quote:

is inside the Giants organization.

How do you know what's been said inside the Giants organization?

.

In comment 11830934 Giants2012 said:

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How do you know what's been said inside the Giants organization?

Because I have a fucking brain.

has 140 more TDs than manning and the same amount of interceptions

In comment 11830859 Headhunter said:

Quote:

Brady drafted in 1999 and Peyton drafted in 1998 Eli in 2004 Ben and Rivers too. But the only one on his QB deathbed is Eli. Interesting

And he's the only one who hasn't missed a game ...

In comment 11830853 UberAlias said:

Quote:

From what I saw. You have to run the right routes, you have to hold on to the ball, and you have to get separation.

Eli threw all of 4 passes ... let's judge the end of his career on that ... and as you point out two were receivers running different routes than Eli expected ... and another was a drop ...

Quote:

I just responded to the fact that it was stated, not just on this thread, that there were no growing pains for Chip Kelly and the Eagles last year. Their record does not indicate that.

...the Giants must not be having issues either, since they won all of the pre-season games. I mean, their record doesn't indicate there's growing pains.

Of course, no one would make that argument, because when you do a little digging, you can see there clearly ARE problems with the Giants.

A record, good or bad, doesn't even begin to tell the whole story.

I don't believe that Eli's best days are behind him.

I've always compared Eli to Elway, and I hope the end of their careers finish in a simlar fashion as well.

Quote:

I don't believe that Eli's best days are behind him.

I just don't think your Eagles argument supports your case, and in fact, supports exactly the opposite.

because this oline is going to get Eli killed and he's not a young kid anymore so he can't take too many more hard hits before things on his body will start to break.

Randle sucks and he's almost as bad as the O-line. Eli will not be the Eli we need until Reece finally does something to upgrade at least two spots on the o-line.

one could make the argument that we do not know what we have with this team yet.

Everyone here is making assumptions based on preseason play.

How many times do things in preseason that people take as cold facts be disproven for them to stop over-reacting to them?

Remember when people were jizzing on themselves over Sean Payton's offense (and the Wunderkid, Sean Bennett). By mid-season, Payton was stripped of play-calling. Remember how people really questioned Spags as a hire based on preseason results, and some kept questioning it when we gave up almost 90 points in the first two regular season games?

I've seen so many preseasons that I've learned that what you see, you usually don't get. Preseason stars usually can't hack it against the #1's, and for some reason, fans continually are oblivious to the fact that teams purposely don't show a lot to be gleaned off of tape later.

I mean, the take on Nassib this year alone is like going from one extreme to another. After preseason game 2, the fanbase was ready to fit him with a cross and personalized spike to drive in his hands.By the end, he is the resurrected savior, ready to take over for Eli.

It is pure idiocy.

In comment 11830972 Wuphat said:

Quote:

Quote: I don't believe that Eli's best days are behind him. I just don't think your Eagles argument supports your case, and in fact, supports exactly the opposite.

Let's be clear, I did not bring up the Eagles. A poster said that Chip Kelly and Nick Foles had no growing pains.

I stated in response that the Eagles were 3-5 at the midway point and Nick Foles didn't play until Week 5, and to think that they just came out with no growing pains is revisionist history. Nothing more.

Wuphat +1

and were 3-5 at the midway point, I'm sure everybody here would be practicing patience and looking at the big picture, right?

Yes, there were growing pains out of the gate.

On defense and special teams.

Offensive struggles did not show up until 3/8s of the season had been played, and even then was a small hiccup.

The conversation was that the Eagles didn't have many growing pains on the offensive side of the ball to start the season. That is correct.

You're attempting to use their record as a way to counter that argument. That's where you fail, because the reason they had a poor record had to do with shoddy defensive play, not offensive play.

That's where the revisionism comes into play.

In comment 11830938 baadbill said:

Quote:

In comment 11830934 Giants2012 said: Quote: How do you know what's been said inside the Giants organization? Because I have a fucking brain.

Love when your type post an opinion as a fact.

Quote:

If the Giants started 1-3 this year... Britt in VA : 9:07 am : link : reply and were 3-5 at the midway point, I'm sure everybody here would be practicing patience and looking at the big picture, right?

If that were to happen, and the offensive were to average 20-25 pts a game while the defense gave up 25-30 pts a game, don't you think the criticism would be focused on the defense rather than the offense?

In comment 11830936 BrettNYG10 said:

Quote:

.

Life still stuck in neutral? lol

is let's give them time to get a new offense installed and see what we have in a couple of weeks.

That you can't make a judgement of where we are now based on what we've seen so far in preseason. That's it.

Somebody else brought up the Eagles.

It's ruining the season for me and it hasn't even started yet.

I prefer to look forward to Giants games, not think it's over before it's even begun.

I think we're all on the same page of wait and see yet the aftermath from last season's offensive debacle into this season does warrant concern when the OL is still being shuffled through 5 preseason games.

It's playoffs or bust IMO.

there were growing pains for the Eagles offense. In the first 6 games of the year, their 1st half points were 4 times greater than their 2nd half points. Over the rest of the year it was close to a 1:1 ratio. Do people not remember the eagles getting out to big leads and then not being able to move the ball in the 2nd halves?

The way their offense is designed, they are going to score points. They are also going to give points up. That's what happens when you have 25% more plays run.

In comment 11831011 Giants2012 said:

Quote:

In comment 11830936 BrettNYG10 said: Quote: . Life still stuck in neutral? lol

Nope, life's great - mocking your idiocy will never get old, though.

Quote:

The whole, total point I'm making... Britt in VA : 9:13 am : link : reply is let's give them time to get a new offense installed and see what we have in a couple of weeks.

Yes, someone else brought them up...

Quote:

Somebody else brought up the Eagles.

...but then you picked up the ball and did your best Jim Marshall impression with it.

are we trying to teach an old dog new tricks?

In comment 11831033 BrettNYG10 said:

Quote:

In comment 11831011 Giants2012 said: Quote: In comment 11830936 BrettNYG10 said: Quote: . Life still stuck in neutral? lol Nope, life's great - mocking your idiocy will never get old, though.

I see making a fool of yourself never gets old from that neutral chair.

In comment 11831027 FatMan in Charlotte said:

Quote:

there were growing pains for the Eagles offense. In the first 6 games of the year, their 1st half points were 4 times greater than their 2nd half points. Over the rest of the year it was close to a 1:1 ratio. Do people not remember the eagles getting out to big leads and then not being able to move the ball in the 2nd halves? The way their offense is designed, they are going to score points. They are also going to give points up. That's what happens when you have 25% more plays run.

Over the first half of the season, they scored eighty eight points in the first half and eighty eight points in the second half.

Over the first six games, it was 88 to 78.

whee are you getting this 4x number?

he is not ready to be a starting qb yet....

But it's disturbing to watch Eli in this 5th game....

His first pass....the Pats only rushed three....there was no pressure, yet he rolled out to the right instead of staying in the pocket....while on the roll out, Randle is open, and he is moving towards the sidelines.....it's an easy completion if Eli throws it towards the sideline...instead he throws it behind Randle....yes Randle still should have caught it, but it was only a 5 yard pass, and it brings into question Eli's accuracy in throwing short passes on the move, which supposedly, this offense will force him to do...

His second pass, once again he was not pressured.....3rd and 4.....simple slant? yet, Randle and Eli just are not on the same page.....

Third pass, bad blocking by Walton....Cruz ran a bad pattern...the DB undercuts the route...a good touch pass by Eli would have been a big gain....bad play all around....

Fourth pass, 3rd and 2....once again, Eli had a pocket...instead of stepping up, he's backing up and rolling to the right and only looking at the TE, no other options on a 3rd down play....the TE catches the ball one yard behind the LOS, and barely gains 2 yards....bad route by the TE....Eli put all his eggs in one basket....if he stepped up into the pocket, he would have seen he had more options....

I just don't know if he is comfortable with the scheme or the OL? He just doesn't look sharp, 5 games into this system....

Now he will be playing a whole game, next time.....maybe he needs to get more comfortable as the game progresses, and he gets into a rhythm....but maybe that Detroit front line doesn't allow him to, with an OL, that really, do we even know who the starters will be?

Eli is a better qb, than what we have seen thus far....maybe the combination of the OL, new scheme, no TE, no #1 receiver, is more than he can handle.....

Better hope the play calling and execution is much better when the season starts....

I just don't see this team making the playoffs again....throw in a couple injuries, with no depth on this team, and it's another long season...

I feel Reese was playing stop gap with this team, instead of making moves for the future...

.

last season? They picked it up pretty quick.

okay with a new offense? And a rookie QB?


It's fine to be whatever fan one wants. And if someone choses to be an optimist and see everything in the best possible light, there's certainly nothing wrong with that. But when one begins to conflate their style of fandom with their analysis, that's probably the time to step back and acknowledge that 'everyone sees what they want to see' is a two way street. And nobody but a blind optimist has seen Eli do anything much good in a while now. And continuing to say 'It's everything but Eli doesn't offer much insight from that perspective.

When was the last time a Giants optimist has been able to look back and say, 'I knew things were going to be okay!'

We all hope for the best. No special prizes for that.

already been discussed. I didn't read through the entire thread.

RE:

Quote:

When was the last time a Giants optimist has been able to look back and say, 'I knew things were going to be okay!'

There was this...
http://corner.bigblueinteractive.com/index.php?mode=2&thread=425901 - ( New Window )

In comment 11831200 Wuphat said:

Quote:

RE: Quote: When was the last time a Giants optimist has been able to look back and say, 'I knew things were going to be okay!' There was this... http://corner.bigblueinteractive.com/index.php?mode=2&thread=425901 - ( New Window )

all the teams mentioned that adapted to their new offenses, did any of you see them in the preseason and if you did, did they hit the ground running? Or are you talking about the results based at the end of the regular season?

It's being patient and showing an understanding that it takes time to work these things out.

There are a shitload of problems on this team, and I acknowledge all of them.

I guess simplifying it to say it's all on the QB is the reasonable approach these days, which is the general tone of these threads saying this is Eli's make or break year, he's gone after this year, etc...

But I guess I'll be told I'm making up that sentiment, and it's only a small majority of people saying that, etc... Which is generally what I'm told at every turn, even though I'm replying directly to that unsilent minority.

In comment 11831200 Wuphat said:

Quote:

RE: Quote: When was the last time a Giants optimist has been able to look back and say, 'I knew things were going to be okay!' There was this... http://corner.bigblueinteractive.com/index.php?mode=2&thread=425901 - ( New Window )

Heh. Yep. There we are.

I only criticize your misapplication of the Eagles record in your argument (it doesn't matter that you didn't insert them into the conversation, either) as evidence that they struggled offensively early in the season.

I'm fine with your conclusion that we should wait and have some patience. I simply disagree with your premise concerning the Eagles as prior evidence.

In comment 11831196 vibe4giants said:

Quote:

When was the last time a Giants optimist has been able to look back and say, 'I knew things were going to be okay!'

Ahem

And from that thread, my favorite post:

Quote:

You are the disease.... Doomster : 8/7/2011 11:28 am : link and I am the cure..... Gotta laugh when people make comparisons to the '07 team......that was a once in a lifetime ride.....everything fell into place at the end of the season..... So comparing to that is season is completely senseless.....

.

If the Giants going 5-0 doesn't prove that preseason is meaningless to most people then nothing will.

I expect the Giants to come out against Detroit with an offense full of different plays and wrinkles, look like a different team from the one we say playing vanilla preseason football, and light up Detroit for 30 pts.

In comment 11831214 Britt in VA said:

Quote:

It's being patient and showing an understanding that it takes time to work these things out. There are a shitload of problems on this team, and I acknowledge all of them. I guess simplifying it to say it's all on the QB is the reasonable approach these days, which is the general tone of these threads saying this is Eli's make or break year, he's gone after this year, etc... But I guess I'll be told I'm making up that sentiment, and it's only a small majority of people saying that, etc... Which is generally what I'm told at every turn, even though I'm replying directly to that unsilent minority.

First, taking a 'wait and see' approach is what everyone ultimately does. That's not a philosophy. It's not a style. It doesn't even really mean much. None of us actually know what will happen. We all have no choice but to wait and see. That's not an opinion. It's what it is to be a sports fan. We will all wait and see.

I have no idea what kind of season Eli will have this year. I haven't seen him play well for any sustained stretch in a season and half of regular season now. That's not all his fault. Nor he totally absolved. There's been nothing in the pre-season that suggests we're in for much better. But I tell myself that pre-season doesn't count. And I hope the regular season will be better. But I can't argue with anyone who makes a reasonable case that the Giants will struggle mightily this year. Again.

Call me crazy, but my perception of Eli is tied pretty closely to what I see him do.

In comment 11831005 Giants2012 said:

Quote:

Love when your type post an opinion as a fact.

Yea, you really thought my post was a FACT because you thought I sit in on Giants coaching staff meetings. Well, then again, maybe you really thought that since you can't seem to otherwise think very logically ...

before his breakout, Comeback Player of the Year award regular season? 20-33, 166 yards, no TDs and 2 INTs. Sound familiar? Another veteran QB going through a scheme change. This takes time people, I'm getting nervous too, but we've got to hold extreme judgment back until we see regular season snaps.

If Eli has another atrocious year - not average, but atrocious - it'd be crazy not to consider investing in a QB (because if Eli is that bad, we'd likely be picking pretty highly).

With that said, I'd be surprised to see another 2013-type year from Eli. There have been a number of elite QB's who have had a period of bad play who subsequently bounced back and played great football in the back half of their careers. I think Eli will end up like those players and bounce back (whether it's this year or next year, I don't know). It'd actually be shocking to me if Eli's done.

But discussing the worst case scenario doesn't mean people want to move on from Eli.

In comment 11831251 SamdaGiantsFan said:

Quote:

before his breakout, Comeback Player of the Year award regular season? 20-33, 166 yards, no TDs and 2 INTs. Sound familiar? Another veteran QB going through a scheme change. This takes time people, I'm getting nervous too, but we've got to hold extreme judgment back until we see regular season snaps.

Yeah, I'm not sure why pre-season play is so concerning to people. The past year and a half of meaningful play is reason to be concerned.

My concern is that Eli has often operated on some pretty thin margins. And if he's been jarred off that line he's walked sufficiently, finding his way back might not be easy. But I absolutely believe it's possible. To the the extent such a thing can be in the DNA, he would have it.

In comment 11831261 vibe4giants said:

Quote:

My concern is that Eli has often operated on some pretty thin margins. And if he's been jarred off that line he's walked sufficiently, finding his way back might not be easy. But I absolutely believe it's possible. To the the extent such a thing can be in the DNA, he would have it.

Favre and Warner are two guys who immediately come to mind who had a period of shitty play in the middle of their careers. Favre had a mediocre 2005-2006 and then had a great year in 2007.

So there's historical precedent that makes me believe Eli will follow a similar path.

But you're right, there's an element of hope there.

In comment 11831244 vibe4giants said:

Quote:

In comment 11831214 Britt in VA said: Quote: It's being patient and showing an understanding that it takes time to work these things out. There are a shitload of problems on this team, and I acknowledge all of them. I guess simplifying it to say it's all on the QB is the reasonable approach these days, which is the general tone of these threads saying this is Eli's make or break year, he's gone after this year, etc... But I guess I'll be told I'm making up that sentiment, and it's only a small majority of people saying that, etc... Which is generally what I'm told at every turn, even though I'm replying directly to that unsilent minority. First, taking a 'wait and see' approach is what everyone ultimately does. That's not a philosophy. It's not a style. It doesn't even really mean much. None of us actually know what will happen. We all have no choice but to wait and see. That's not an opinion. It's what it is to be a sports fan. We will all wait and see.

It absolutely is a philosophy and style when it comes to posting on BBI.

I've seen plenty of definitive statements made about what will or won't happen, the past couple of days/weeks.

In comment 11831268 BrettNYG10 said:

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In comment 11831261 vibe4giants said: Quote: My concern is that Eli has often operated on some pretty thin margins. And if he's been jarred off that line he's walked sufficiently, finding his way back might not be easy. But I absolutely believe it's possible. To the the extent such a thing can be in the DNA, he would have it. Favre and Warner are two guys who immediately come to mind who had a period of shitty play in the middle of their careers. Favre had a mediocre 2005-2006 and then had a great year in 2007. So there's historical precedent that makes me believe Eli will follow a similar path. But you're right, there's an element of hope there.

Yeah, Farve is a guy we always talk about. Warner I hadn't thought of before, but I suppose that's true, as well. (Though, overall, Farve feels more analogous.)

Britt, you're smart enough and BBI savvy enough that should be able to dismiss definitive statements out of hand. You know there are people on here not worth taking seriously, much less responding to.

who got the point of my OP. Less a comment on whether or not Eli will have a good season and why, it's that blaming--or hopefully crediting!!!--it all on the QB is oversimplification. Still, that's what will happen.

Actually, the worse everyone else on offense plays, Eli has to go above and beyond what might be reasonable. If (let's say "when") the offense gels, that situation completely turns around. Again, it's all perception.

negativity.

Personally, I don't have a feeling, right, wrong, or indifferent as to what's going to happen this year. Last year left such an awful, hopeless feeling that I'm literally numb to the start of this season.

I also hope that things will work out for the best.

That said, there has to be a counterpoint to all of the negativity here. I'm just trying to pop in and provide that from time to time. Trying to keep the discussion reasonable.

The level of optimism displayed is usually done to balance the level of negativity displayed. If it's extreme, I go extreme the opposite direction. If it's level headed and addresses both sides, that's how I approach it.

It's tailored to the discussion.

My point were in reference to other posts in the thread.

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In comment 11831317 Britt in VA said:

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negativity. Personally, I don't have a feeling, right, wrong, or indifferent as to what's going to happen this year. Last year left such an awful, hopeless feeling that I'm literally numb to the start of this season. I also hope that things will work out for the best. That said, there has to be a counterpoint to all of the negativity here. I'm just trying to pop in and provide that from time to time. Trying to keep the discussion reasonable. The level of optimism displayed is usually done to balance the level of negativity displayed. If it's extreme, I go extreme the opposite direction. If it's level headed and addresses both sides, that's how I approach it. It's tailored to the discussion.

You'd made reference above to (something along the lines) of the season already being spoiled for you. Because other people see things differently from you? Why let it effect you that way? Especially from people whose opinions that shouldn't count all that much at all? (Like that guy who said, take away the two SBs, TC and Nassib is probably our new starter.)

Last year is a recent example of pessimism being warranted. And even then, we somehow wound up with something to hang onto the second half of the season. Giants fans, of all fan bases, should understand that any fucking thing is possible. Most especially when no one sees it coming. That should have been the lesson of '07 and '11. I've said more than once that despite the serious ups and downs, the 07 regular may have been my favorite as a Giants fan. Just because the insane ups and downs made for a thrilling ride. And then it only got better.

But there's also a lesson from last season. Sometimes things are exactly as they appear.

So, yeah. We'll see. I take comfort from the fact that I don't see anyone, bar the Eagles, running away from us in the division. And my perception (uh oh) of the Eagles is just skewed enough that I can tell myself, they might not.

(Smash cut to the Redskins going 16-0.)

that's like comparing Paul O'Neill to Willie Mays and Barry Bonds

But I stand by my Elway one.

QB of all time. Eli is painfully slow, has an average arm, doesn't throw the most catchable ball.

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I'll just leave this here to look over:

past where Eli is at this point when making the comparison, and had yet to win where Eli is right now, as well.

Outside of being drafted first overall and asking for a trade, Eli is nothing like Elway.

so let's not even go there, that's obvious.

Eli has only had one season of being a top five QB. It's a ridiculous comparison.

There are the numbers.

You're being obtuse.

All QB numbers then and now cannot be put into context due to number of factors, mainly rule changes against defenses that have inflated statistics to the extreme.

Throwing for 4000 yards today isn't the same as when Phil Simms threw for the same 4000 yards 30 years ago. So comparing Manning and Elway is a meaningless comparison.

What's next? Joe Namath was a bum because he threw more INT's than TD passes? Never mind the fact he played QB when defenders were able to mug receivers all over the field legally without penalty (see: The Mel Blount Rule).

numbers are used for EVERYTHING on this site, but now they are no good.

Completion percentages are still good numbers. TD's to INT's are still good numbers. Yards, well, if you make an estimate saying that throwing for 3000 back then is like throwing for 4000 now, it still bears out considering Elway only hit 4000 once in his career, and Eli only hit 5000 once, but they were both consistently above the average amount of passing yards per season.

Game winning drives are still game winning drives. Comebacks are still comebacks.

That he's walking into the Hall of Fame. First year of eligibility and all. Because, some stats.

The same era.

I have no idea what type of point you're trying to make comparing Eli to Elway. They don't even have similar styles of play.

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even back in 2009 it was being talked about on here, and once again, interesting numbers.

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Eli Manning and John Elway - Parallel Beginnings mikewaldwick : 11/25/2009 7:15 pm Eli Manning and John Elway’s NFL careers began the exact same way. After 88 starts you’ll see their stats are very similar as well. Even though, in my opinion, today’s QB, in general, has become more of a dink and dunk position (resulting in higher passer ratings), as we saw on Sunday, Eli’s style of down-the-field passing is similar to when Elway played. What I found very interesting is that the Giants and Broncos were LAST PLACE teams the year before Eli and Elway were drafted. Two years later, after their first full season, both the Giants and Broncos were FIRST PLACE teams. Two years ago this comparison may have been slightly insulting to John Elway fans but Eli is definitely closing the gap with his play over the last couple years. Eli and Elway after 88 total starts (81 Regular Season starts and 7 playoff starts) DRAFTED: Eli first overall/traded, Elway first overall/traded RECORD YEAR BEFORE DRAFT: Giants 2003: 4-12 (last), Broncos 1982: 2-7 (last-strike season) RECORD AFTER FIRST FULL SEASON 2005-Giants 11-5 (first), 1984-Broncos 13-3 (first) SUPER BOWLS: Eli 1, Elway 0 TOTAL RECORD: Eli 52-36 .591, Elway 57-30-1 .655 REG SEASON RECORD: Eli 48- 33 .593, Elway 53-27-1 .663 PLAYOFF RECORD: Eli 4-3 .571, Elway 4-3 .571 STRENGTH OF SCHEDULE: Eli .535, Elway .518 AVG. RANK OF DEFENSES PLAYED AGAINST (YDS): Eli 15.1, Elway 17.6** PASSER RATING: Eli 78.1, Elway 74.1 ATT: Eli 2,781, Elway 2,788 COMP: Eli 1,576, Elway 1,515 COMP PCT: Eli 56.7%, Elway 54.3% PASSING YARDS: Eli 18,311, Elway 19,330 NET PASSING YARDS: Eli 17,296, Elway 17,981 YARDS/ATT: Eli 6.6, Elway 6.9 TD: Eli 124, Elway 111 INT: Eli 90, Elway 103 4th QTR/OT COMEBACKS: Eli 17, Elway 17 SACKS/YARDS: Eli 147/1,015, Elway 178/1,349 **Elways competitors ranked 15.4 in defense out of 28 teams which equates to 17.6 against 32 teams

Link - ( New Window )

In comment 11831499 BrettNYG10 said:

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Sorry, 4933.

that's stupid comparison... because you say so?

Every, every, every NFL personnel guy I have heard says it. This is starting to get a life of its own like his grip strength did.

It's ridiculous because Elway was a top 5-10 QB of all time and Eli has that ranking relative to peers.

Or was it not looking so hot at that point?

what's next, Ahmad Bradshaw is similar to Walter Payton?

174/316, 55.1%, 2242 yards, 10 TD's, 17 INT's.

Ironically enough, after Elways 10th year, the coaching staff was replaced, and they brought in a new system.

An unknown guy named Jim Fassel came in as O Coordinator and QB's coach, and Elway had the best season of his career.

Nope, no parellels at all.

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you come away thing he's got a big arm...i.e. Elway? Come on dude? Can't you see how much more velo Nassib has when needed? I'm not saying Nassib is better or ready or whatever, but when he comes in its the difference in his arm vs Eli's that is pretty noteworthy (that and the ability to move outside the pocket in a coordinated fashion).

between the two, to this thread. I feel I've backed up my comparison as much as one can in this format.

Up to this point, those that disagree have presented nothing but hyperbole.

to be a 5-10 all-time QB than in reality was he one. Not statistically compared to current QBs, but to his own peers and even more so when accounting for the strength of competition compared peers (usually in the other conference).

His elevation to clear-cut all-time status honestly involves a lot of "But his teammates sucked!" and 'forgetting' stuff like how there was time later in his career, pre-SBs, when people thought he broken and done and the Broncos had to do a coaching staff (and more) overhaul to fix him or how terrible he really played in one of those SB wins (and how terrible he was in some of their losses prior).

you understand the rules have changed, right? You understand that passers today have far better stats than 20 years ago? So, its silly to do an apples to apples comp between a guy that was the greatest physical specimen ever to play the position versus a guy that has Bernie Kosar like athleticism (weak, slow, mediocre arm, fairly uncoordinated if asked to do much besides drop back and throw) is an odd choice.

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There's actually a pretty good argument that Elway is more peceived Riggies : 12:46 pm : link : reply to be a 5-10 all-time QB than in reality was he one. Not statistically compared to current QBs, but to his own peers and even more so when accounting for the strength of competition compared peers (usually in the other conference)....

One of my points about Namath

I'm reading the numbers in context.

Elways year 10 was a bad year whether it was in 1992 or 2013 (adjusted for inflation).

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hyperbole

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...

word hyperbole?

Because it's been pretty damn quiet on the Eli/Elway front since I posted the information.

Yes, there number are similar at this point in their careers. No argument there.

But the game is significantly skewed in favor of the offense now than it was in the 80s and 90s, so drawing comparisons between their numbers is like drawing comparisons between Elway and Unitas.

The best way to judge a QB is among his peers, and in that regard, Elway was probably 2nd to Montana.

Eli, as much as I like him, isn't even in the top 5 among his peers.

It's not that difficult to see the distinction between the game then and the game now and recognize that QBs have a distinct advantage in racking up numbers now than their forerunners did.

Those discussions aren't mutually exclusive.

In comment 11831647 Big Blue '56 said:

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Quote: There's actually a pretty good argument that Elway is more peceived Riggies : 12:46 pm : link : reply to be a 5-10 all-time QB than in reality was he one. Not statistically compared to current QBs, but to his own peers and even more so when accounting for the strength of competition compared peers (usually in the other conference).... One of my points about Namath

Namath's an even bigger example, honestly.

Both guys benefitted extraordinarily from being of the eras they were, with how sports were covered and how narratives formed and were ran with, ultimately embedded in consciousness as "truths."

If they had their same careers now (adjusted to the era)? Whether accurate/fair or not, Elway would pretty much be in Eli's shoes, in terms of how he's viewed (minus the stupid body language type stuff Eli gets), and Namath wouldn't be viewed as anything good at all for the most part.

does go to the analysis, though. JOMO wasn't actually responding to the hyperbolic Elway/Eli comparison by saying 'That's the most ridiculous thing any human being has ever written!!!!' (Which would have been hyperbolic.)

He responded calmly with some context. Aside from disagreeing with him about Eli's arm strength, what he wrote was sound and reasonable.

And I still haven't seen a response to the idea that Eli is walking into the HoF first year he's eligible. Since you see so many parallels, wouldn't that be logical consequence? Or is it possible that a hyperbolic comparison of coincidences isn't an especially realistic assessment of their respective skill sets and careers? And you know that's there's no chance, right now, that Eli meets that standard? And thus the analogy is a lot thinner than copy and paste blocks of stats would appear to suggest?

*their numbers*