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If Aldon Smith was a Giant, would he have been released?

Reese's Pieces : 8/30/2014 10:34 pm
He is a recurrent offender. Received a nine game suspension: supposedly four games for substance abuse and five for personal conduct. His next offense will result in suspension for a whole season. Hard to nail down the personal conduct code violations. It might be his DUI convictions and weapons charges resulting from a party that he gave.

Investigators said several shots were fired, two partygoers were injured and Smith was stabbed.

In the subsequent investigation, prosecutors say detectives found five unregistered, illegal weapons in Smith’s house.


Lots of parallels with the Will Hill situation. Smith missed five games last season to attend a rehabilitation class. Suspended nine games this year. One more strike and it's a whole season. Not very reliable, I don't think.

Completely different reaction from Niners' management and fans. Management is mainly interested in finding out what team activities he can still participate in while suspended. Smith apologized for what he did and he has management's full confidence. The fans keep bringing up Ray Rice, who was only suspended two games for beating his girlfriend.

I'm not saying who's right, but if you think that your team is Super Bowl ready right now and you don't know how many more years you have, it's got to affect your judgment. The Niners have a reputation for being a class organization, but they're not showing any concern for the effect that coddling Smith may have on youthful fans.
Since  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 8/30/2014 10:55 pm : link
Will Hill had Pro Bowl ability, and the Giants knew that, probably.
RE: Since  
kepler20 : 8/30/2014 11:17 pm : link
In comment 11834238 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Will Hill had Pro Bowl ability, and the Giants knew that, probably.


Eric, Will Hill has never been to the Pro Bowl and has never played 16 games in a regular season.

It is absolutely disingenuous to assert that Will Hill ever was a Pro Bowl quality player. Stevie Brown had 8 INTs in 2012, does that make him a Pro Bowl quality player? Absolutely not.


Aldon Smith has a proven track record whose play consistently transcends the pure statistics that he generates. I remember watching him in the playoffs vs SEA, and he was easily the most impactful player on the field. Simply unblockable and reminded me of Tuck vs Pats in 2007.
.  
kepler20 : 8/30/2014 11:26 pm : link
you can substitute ability for quality. Because I'm sure in the microcosm of every single NFL player, even Michael Sam, possesses "pro bowl" ability.
kepler20  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 8/30/2014 11:39 pm : link
Actually, no it's not.

When Hill was a rookie on the Giants, I was told at camp in Albany that the coaches and players felt Hill was the most talent DB on the team.

And the reason they gave him so many chances in the first place is that they knew how good he was.

He and Rolle were the best defensive players on the team last year and arguably the best players on the team last year.
Hill was much better than Brown.  
BrettNYG10 : 8/30/2014 11:43 pm : link
I think Eric's right.
What would be interesting is to  
St. Jimmy : 8/30/2014 11:45 pm : link
see how LT would have fared in current NFL and what the Giants would do. With the internet and 24/7 coverage it would be interesting to see what would have come out. I think the Giants would have been in some tough situations (they probably were in the 80s too).
I'm just  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 8/30/2014 11:47 pm : link
as bummed about Hill as anyone, but he was like the 7-year old kid who you kept telling, "if you do it one more time, this is going to happen..." and that kid kept doing it and thinking he could get away with it.

How lame was Hill? He blamed his failed drug test on second-hand smoke, and then he trashed his NJ apartment after he knew he was gone.

Great player. Not so great human being.

More than drugs... it was about trust.

Even his teammates recognized that at the end. Guys like Rolle were told by Hill, "I'm not guilty...you'll see."
It is  
pjcas18 : 8/30/2014 11:49 pm : link
very possible.

one the one hand Smith, next year Smith will be in the final year of his deal and cost almost 10M on the cap with no dead cap space, so make it through this year and they can just cut him.

if they feel he's unreliable 10M is a steep price to pay.

They'd save 2.2M if they cut him this year, so it's possible.

His incidents were far worse than anything Hill has been busted for so it's definitely possible.
RE: RE: Since  
j_rud : 8/30/2014 11:51 pm : link
In comment 11834271 kepler20 said:
Quote:
In comment 11834238 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


Will Hill had Pro Bowl ability, and the Giants knew that, probably.



Eric, Will Hill has never been to the Pro Bowl and has never played 16 games in a regular season.

It is absolutely disingenuous to assert that Will Hill ever was a Pro Bowl quality player. Stevie Brown had 8 INTs in 2012, does that make him a Pro Bowl quality player? Absolutely not.


I think it's disingenuous to assert your opinion. While Beason receives the lions share of the credit for helping the D find its identity it's no coincidence that the entire defense looked better the second Hill hit the field. He did everything well, could cover deep and play like a LBer in the box. His play against the run in particular was always fun to watch. There's not a single cell of hesitation on him, he sees the ball and he become a a goddamn missile.

It doesn't mean squat that Hill wasn't voted to the pro bowl last season, he as probably the best defender on the field. His poor choices (can't say "losing him" bc he Giants didn't lose him, he forced their hand) are going to be a big blow. Imagine him back there with Rolle, DRC, Thurmond, and Prince. They'd have brought the lumber and they would've had swagger to burn. They can still be good, bit make no mistake, Hill is an elite talent.
the  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 8/30/2014 11:55 pm : link
Giants had a number of really bad things happen to them this offseason...

(1) David Wilson's career prematurely ending.
(2) Losing Odell Beckham for virtually the entire offseason.
(3) Losing Jon Beason for the entire offseason.
(4) Losing Cooper Taylor - who was coming on - for the season.
(5) Losing Marcus Harris - who was also coming on and earning playing time with the first-team - for the season.

But the biggest loss was cutting Hill.
What is really going to  
St. Jimmy : 8/30/2014 11:56 pm : link
suck is if the drug testing policy changes and marijuana is not tested for. It sucks doing the right thing sometimes.
If Will Hill was a pro-Bowl player,  
Reese's Pieces : 8/30/2014 11:56 pm : link
does that mean that we would have/should have kept him?

I hate to see a guy with a special gift, like Smith, get special treatment. People with talent that is in demand already get lots of life's perks, although they seem to manage to screw up their lives as much as anyone.
Reese's Pieces  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 8/31/2014 12:00 am : link
who knows?

Giants felt they gave him a bunch of chances and he kept screwing up.

As I tell my kids when I punish them, "I didn't make this decision. You did with your actions."

Was it the right one? Everyone has an opinion. The argument for cutting him was he kept saying he changed, but he didn't. If they committed to him one more time and he got suspended for a year during a playoff run?
Looking at Smith's  
pjcas18 : 8/31/2014 12:02 am : link
body of work, I'm pretty sure he'd no longer be a NY Giant:

Quote:
On January 28, 2012, Aldon Smith was arrested for driving under the influence in Miami Beach, Florida.[16][17]

On June 30, 2012, Smith was believed to have suffered stab wounds when attempting to break up a fight at a party at his residence. Two other people were shot in the incident.[18] On October 9, 2013, Smith was charged with "three felony counts of illegal possession of an assault weapon" relating to the stabbing incident. The charges were later reduced to misdemeanors.[19]

On September 20, 2013, Smith was involved in a single vehicle accident in San Jose, California. He was subsequently arrested on suspicion of driving under the influence and possession of marijuana. After the loss to the Indianapolis Colts in the third week of the football season, he voluntarily entered a rehabilitation facility, to be put onto the non-football injury list with an indefinite leave of absence.[20]

On April 13, 2014, Smith was detained and arrested following an incident at the Los Angeles International Airport in which Smith became belligerent and uncooperative with a TSA agent, who alleged Smith claimed he was carrying a bomb. After interviews revealed that Smith did not clearly state he was carrying a bomb, the Los Angeles City Attorney decided to drop the charges. Aldon Smith is suspended for 9 games for the 2014 season. [21]


Hill probably had to be cut too, but comparatively speaking I think what Smith has done is worse from a character standpoint.
...  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 8/31/2014 12:06 am : link
Being "gross" is not a crime...but...

Quote:

Jameelah says everything in the house was new before Hill moved in. But she says the former Giants defensive back made a dogs breakfast out of her family’s property. Indoor paintball games on the new hardwood floors. Maggot infestations, holes in the walls, dog feces from his four pit bulls and dirty bathtubs.

Former Giants star Will Hill trashes NJ rental home, refuses to pay up - ( New Window )
Which is exactly the position the Niners are in now.  
Reese's Pieces : 8/31/2014 12:06 am : link
No way George Young and Parcells would have released LT for anything short of presidential assassination.

And I've got to think that, compared to LT, Smith and Hill are choir boys.
You can't compare LT  
pjcas18 : 8/31/2014 12:08 am : link
to modern players. Not because of his ability, but because of the political correctness and new policies in place in the NFL.

If LT was in the NFL today he's be Josh Gordon.
RE: You can't compare LT  
pjcas18 : 8/31/2014 12:08 am : link
In comment 11834323 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
to modern players. Not because of his ability, but because of the political correctness and new policies in place in the NFL.

If LT was in the NFL today he's be Josh Gordon.

he'd be Josh Gordon
and  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 8/31/2014 12:10 am : link
Hill was pretty stupid about the pictures he was posting on Instagram... Giants were well aware of that too. For someone who supposedly had "cleaned up his act", those photos said otherwise.
Sometimes you have to remember that these players in  
Reese's Pieces : 8/31/2014 12:20 am : link
their early 20s are more boys than men. Their football talent has let them get away with acts for which someone else would have gotten nailed.

This Commissioner seems serious about holding them to the same standards as everyone else.
Who knows, maybe it clicks in Baltimore.  
j_rud : 8/31/2014 12:26 am : link
Chris Carter didn't give Buddy Ryan and the Eagles a choice and it saved his career. But what sticks out to me more than the continued failed tests are the reports like the Eric linked. That's not just someone who can't stop smoking bud, that's a full grown adult damaging the property, living amongst trash and animal excrement...I single even know what to think about that, other than you've got a fully grown man who, at least on his private quarters, doesn't appear to know how to take care of himself.
injuries are to be expected BUT  
oipolloi : 8/31/2014 2:05 am : link
Giants really lost a lot of young guys. More than usual, it seems to me.
Hill was the real deal.  
arcarsenal : 8/31/2014 3:27 am : link
That dude was the best defensive player on this team last year. Fuck it, he was the best player on this team last year.

He's a dynamite player. Having to let go of him was one of the biggest bummers in recent memory. If he wants it, he can be one of the best safeties in this league.
Hill  
stretch234 : 8/31/2014 8:07 am : link
Suspended at Florida soph season
Did not care about rules as JR resulting in being undrafted
Suspended 1st year in NFL
Suspended 2nd year in NFL
suspended 3rd year in NFL

He did not change after his suspension in FL, or not being drafted, or his 1st or 2nd NFL suspension. Is he suddenly going to change now

Talent does receive more chances, but his 3rd suspension in the NFL has him missing 14 of 48 games. His next 2nd hand smoke episode will cost him a year. How do you rely on that after he has let you down 3 times in 3 years, all while saying he has changed
Smith should be cut  
LauderdaleMatty : 8/31/2014 8:40 am : link
Question is do the Niners have the balls.

Who knows if LT would have screwed up. Maybe if he had gotten tougher treatment early on his life wouldn't have been such a cluster fuck later? Or it may not have made any difference. But let's be honest. Neither Hill not Smith are LT and having a player miss so many games constantly is a guy begging to be cut

...  
SanFranGiantsFan : 8/31/2014 8:44 am : link
Probably.

Losing Hill sucked, but they gave him opportunity after opportunity after opportunity after opportunity & he spit in their face each time.
RE: I'm just  
Joe in Knoxville : 8/31/2014 8:58 am : link
In comment 11834306 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
as bummed about Hill as anyone, but he was like the 7-year old kid who you kept telling, "if you do it one more time, this is going to happen..." and that kid kept doing it and thinking he could get away


Eric my 7 year old listens better then he did

My 2 year old on the other hand
RE: Reese's Pieces  
Reese's Pieces : 8/31/2014 10:11 am : link
In comment 11834317 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
who knows?

Giants felt they gave him a bunch of chances and he kept screwing up.

As I tell my kids when I punish them, "I didn't make this decision. You did with your actions."

Was it the right one? Everyone has an opinion. The argument for cutting him was he kept saying he changed, but he didn't. If they committed to him one more time and he got suspended for a year during a playoff run?


So that brings back the original question: would the Giants have released Smith, who missed five games last year, will miss nine games this year, and gets the season suspension for another violation. Or would they have dug down and found a little more patience for Smith.
Reese's Pieces  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 8/31/2014 12:46 pm : link
I haven't counted how many chances Smith has received. If the same number of chances as Hill, yes. If Smith has screwed up fewer times, perhaps not.

Not sure why this worth debating.
RE: Reese's Pieces  
SGMen : 8/31/2014 12:53 pm : link
In comment 11834738 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
I haven't counted how many chances Smith has received. If the same number of chances as Hill, yes. If Smith has screwed up fewer times, perhaps not.

Not sure why this worth debating.
I still think that Hill should have been retained. Marijuana isn't the worst thing in the world. Post bye, he'd have been dynamite to have assuming he stays clean.
If they're being consistent regardless of player pedigree, yes  
JonC : 8/31/2014 12:55 pm : link
he'd likely be gone.

Hill was cut because he was unreliable and lied to the organization, simple as that. Pot isn't allowed within the current CBA, end of story.

Smith's offenses are bigger and worse, and more numerous, I'd expect NYG to be consistent in doling out a decision.
RE: RE: Reese's Pieces  
LauderdaleMatty : 8/31/2014 1:01 pm : link
In comment 11834747 SGMen said:
Quote:
In comment 11834738 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


I haven't counted how many chances Smith has received. If the same number of chances as Hill, yes. If Smith has screwed up fewer times, perhaps not.



Not sure why this worth debating.

I still think that Hill should have been retained. Marijuana isn't the worst thing in the world. Post bye, he'd have been dynamite to have assuming he stays clean.


It's not that he smokes weed. It's that he's an untrustworthy moron whom can't be counted on. When the team tells him it's his last shot should they give him unlimited chances. We all wanted him in the team. He's just to fucking stupid and irresponsible. Maybe he changes but unite he does counting on a guy like that is dangerous.
I understand why the Giants felt they had to release Hill.  
Reese's Pieces : 8/31/2014 9:30 pm : link
He certainly doesn't fit in with the team philosophy of wanting only "high-character" players. He can't be trusted not to get caught by another positive test and Coughlin doesn't like players around him who don't focus solely on winning football games.

Smith has a worse rap sheet than Hill, so it would be hypocritical of the Giants not to release Smith. But they would probably face ridicule from the rest of the league if they cut one of the most valuable defensive players in the NFL without being forced to. So what to do?

So what would the Giants do?
RE: Reese's Pieces  
Reese's Pieces : 8/31/2014 9:39 pm : link
In comment 11834738 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
I haven't counted how many chances Smith has received. If the same number of chances as Hill, yes. If Smith has screwed up fewer times, perhaps not.

Not sure why this worth debating.


You were the one who wrote that the loss of Hill was the single biggest calamity of the Giants' off-season. And no one forced them to do it or even pressured them.

I thought it would be real interesting to look at a nearly identical situation on the other side of the continent. It appears that everyone in SF, management and fans, are focused only on how fast they can get Smith back and contributing.

Guess it isn't that interesting.
Hill also had some bad influences  
USAF NYG Fan : 8/31/2014 10:01 pm : link
in the local area. Im sure the Giants took that into account.
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