In comment 11834982 AcidTest said:
[quote] concede we probably have gone overboard with the Quarles/Gaines situations. But I reject the broader point that fans "sitting on the couch" shouldn't criticize the "experts" on the coaching staff or the FO. That's what fans do, and it seems especially defensible given all the bad personnel decisions of the past few years. I am also not of the crowd screaming to bench Eli.
Let me also say that I don't hate Kuhn, and in fact going into camp was arguing against those who said he should be cut. But Quarles outplayed him, and is younger. Even more mystifying is why Gaines was cut in favor of Brewer or Brown. Does anybody really think that Brown wasn't anything but awful this preseason? [/quote
Exactly. I tired of hearing that I shouldnt question the experts. I work in an analytical field where I am generally considered an expert. I deal with uncertainties and unpredictabilities all the time. Sometimes I get things wrong and sometimes nonexperts are more accurate. Often its because they dont have many biases or are not paralyzed by too much information. The idea you cant question the experts is bullshit.
In comment 11834982 AcidTest said:
[quote] concede we probably have gone overboard with the Quarles/Gaines situations. But I reject the broader point that fans "sitting on the couch" shouldn't criticize the "experts" on the coaching staff or the FO. That's what fans do, and it seems especially defensible given all the bad personnel decisions of the past few years. I am also not of the crowd screaming to bench Eli.
Let me also say that I don't hate Kuhn, and in fact going into camp was arguing against those who said he should be cut. But Quarles outplayed him, and is younger. Even more mystifying is why Gaines was cut in favor of Brewer or Brown. Does anybody really think that Brown wasn't anything but awful this preseason? [/quote
Exactly. I tired of hearing that I shouldnt question the experts. I work in an analytical field where I am generally considered an expert. I deal with uncertainties and unpredictabilities all the time. Sometimes I get things wrong and sometimes nonexperts are more accurate. Often its because they dont have many biases or are not paralyzed by too much information. The idea you cant question the experts is bullshit.
Not sure why you're mystified. Gaines apparently has an injured shoulder, unless you feel TC was being deceitful..
Higher than Wilson. Not sure I have even heard that suggested anywhere other than just now.
Either TC or Reese stated that there was one player more highly rated than Wilson on their board. Later someone reported with confidence that it was Glenn, iirc.
Obviously they see he's not a better fit. Whether right or wrong..Reese, TC etc know better and their plans than outsiders like us fans. I'd trust their decision moreso.
... is not going to be used immediately in the DT rotation, so letting Kuhn go would leave us with just three tackles on game day, and we want to have four. I'm not happy to lose Quarles, but it is hard to carry 5 DTs if two of them are developmental players.
If Bromley is capable of playing significant snaps right away, then I have to agree with the general feeling that keeping Kuhn is a mistake. And since I hope Bromley is capable, I guess I'm hoping we made a mistake. Wait, I'm conflicted...
The point about special teams is valid if Kuhn dresses Week 1.
If he doesn't dress, his special teams prowess means little until somebody gets hurt. By my count, it might be tough to dress more than seven defensive linemen against Detroit, and Kuhn is the eighth DL in line for a shirt, ahead of Bromley and Wynn. To dress a fourth DT, you have to make a hard choice elsewhere: Herzlich and Bowman are also key special teamers, so it doesn't make much sense to sit either of them in favor of Kuhn for specials. It might come down to Kuhn vs. Kennard, or Kuhn vs. the eighth offensive lineman, or Kuhn vs. the third TE. Or they could go with just four WRs, if neither Beckham nor Washington is ready to contribute. But that's not a permanent solution; five WR is likely to be the minimum over the course of the season.
I was leaning towards quarles as well based on upside
but not a kuhn detractor at all. perhaps a move to reward kuhn for lots of effort or simply a numbers game. quarles was fun to watch though, and had some upside.
most surprising is that it looks like they might let patterson play a one gap attack and here I was cutting him due to age, keeping kuhn and quarles.
like the "problem" could have been solved by initially cutting Brewer and Brown for Gaines and Quarles. Then bring back Brewer after putting Schwartz on short term IR on Tuesday.
Essentially, the Patriots and Cards (who are both thin at the position) wound up trading backup DTs: The banged-up vet Kelly for the unheralded rookie Gaston.
Gaston and Quarles aren't both likely to stick once Easley is ready to play.
He wasn't drafted due to anger management issues. Which is not a big problem for a D Lineman. You want some aggressiveness. Mayock rated him as the fifth best DT in the draft.
Ed, perhaps that's so. However, if it wasn't a big problem as you assert(for DTs), then why didn't 32 other teams view it as simply as you do?
Perhaps it was due to fighting with teammates and general nastiness on and off the field. I guess most teams would rather not deal with that kind of behavior. Giants took a chance and he seemed to have learned some self control. Whatever , Belechick took notice in the last game and grabbed him. His gain our loss. IMHO.
are people knocking kuhn? he's a 325# block of granite who plays his gaps and has earned the trust of the coaches. quarles hasn't done anything, i am fine keeping kuhn over him
are people knocking kuhn? he's a 325# block of granite who plays his gaps and has earned the trust of the coaches. quarles hasn't done anything, i am fine keeping kuhn over him
I never thought much of Quarles, but give me a break with the Kuhn-love. "A 325# block of granite?" Puh-leeze. If you're talking about his mobility, though, I'd tend to agree.
We sure keep some awful players around for their alleged ST proficiency, like Herzlich and Kuhn. For an alleged "325 pound block of granite" sure gets pushed off the line easily.
He likes those old, beat up legs vets who have nothing left in the tank like Peyton Hillis. IDK why he likes Kuhn so much. 4 things i didnt like, keeping brown, keeping kuhn over Quarles, not getting a change of pace back like 1 of the 2 the skins cut, and letting that bum JD play center over the more athletic Richburg. Grimble i kind of understand but i think they should let him heal and then see what he has to offer.
Pats have a great record during Brady and Bills career but look at that division...at least two of the team suck every year and then there's Jets. The Toronto Argonauts would have a winning record if they played in that division for 10 years.
like the "problem" could have been solved by initially cutting Brewer and Brown for Gaines and Quarles. Then bring back Brewer after putting Schwartz on short term IR on Tuesday.
not a lock schwartz goes to short term ir when he is only expected to miss a few games not half the season
are people knocking kuhn? he's a 325# block of granite who plays his gaps and has earned the trust of the coaches. quarles hasn't done anything, i am fine keeping kuhn over him
remembering when Kuhn's name was mentioned during games.....must be all the double teaming he commands, allowing those to the left and right of him to make plays....
Have seen nothing from this guy.....seen nothing from Schwartz....nothing from Brown.....all are still on the team....I know we are stuck with Schwartz, but just makes you wonder...
From the bits and pieces I saw of pre season Quarles got good penetration but seemed to get called for roughing and face mask grabbing whenever I saw him in the game
remembering when Kuhn's name was mentioned during games.....must be all the double teaming he commands, allowing those to the left and right of him to make plays....
Have seen nothing from this guy.....seen nothing from Schwartz....nothing from Brown.....all are still on the team....I know we are stuck with Schwartz, but just makes you wonder...
In Kuhn's defense, I saw a number of plays where he was being double teamed, but I think it's more his being a good ST player. Somebody also said that the Pats are short of DT, so they may have just been grabbing for anybody that showed anything during the preseason.
Brewer and Brown both surviving is what's surprising. Even if Gaines had to be waived/injured, isn't there anybody else out there who can replace at least one of them?
Yet more comments about 'neglecting' the OL. Here is the reality from the draft from 2008 through 2012.
2008:
K. Phillips(32) C. Rachal(39) M. Pollack(59)
T. Thomas(63) J. Greco(66) J. Zuttah(83)
Manningham(95) C. Reinhardt(96) C. Wallace(107) K
Leichtensteiger(108) Mike MGlynn(109) S. Murphy(110) A.
Collins(112)
2009:
Nicks(29) E. Britton(39)
Sintim(45) M. Unger(49) A. Levitre(51) P. Loadholdt(54)
Vollmer(58)
Beatty (60) R. Brewster(75) A. Caldwell(77) Vasquez(78) K.
Urbik(79)
Barden(85) J. Luigs(106) T. Lang(109) R. Ornberger(123)
The last 3 lineman after A. Brown combined for 33 total starts
2010: Forget after JPP
L. Joseph(46) V. Ducasse(61) C. Brown(64) J. Asomoah(68) J.
Valdeheer(69) J. Jerry(73)
C. Jones(76) JD Walton(80) S. Luavo(92) M. Johnson(98) B.
Campbell(106)
P. Dillard(115) J. Hawley(117) J. Fox(128)
2011:
P. Amukamarta(19) A.Costanzo(22) D. Watkins(23) J.
Carpenter(28) G. Carimi(29) D. Sherrod(32) O.
Franklin(46) S. Wisnewski(48) B. Ijalana(49)
M. Austin(52) R. Hudson(55) M. Gilbert(63) J. Moffitt(75)
W. Rackley(76)
J. Jernigan(83) J. Reid(85) J. Barksdale(92) C. Boling(101)
D. Arkin(110)
The 3 OL taken after Brewer have performed the same as Brewer
2012:
After WIlson, you could argue about Schwartz, but Glenn was not viewed as an NFL LT. The other guys picked within 10 of Wilson are guards. Konz and M. Adams are bad.
The guys picked after Randle - LeRibeus, Stephenson, Brooks Holmes have not played much.
Look at the guys picked after Holsey - there is not much
I do not see a lot of neglect based upon draft picks and position, specifically LT and even RT. Majority of these guys are G. They were never going to draft Unger with Ohara here.
You can clearly debate some things about Reese and the draft, but the OL 'neglect' issue is really not part of that
Why not cut Kuhn? Who the fuck wants him anyway!? Where are all those geniuses who posted he would pass through? Not that this stupid move would have helped us this year, but we may not win a game. Not one game. Right it down!
It took 29 posts for you to respond with your inane bullshit.
Bravo on your restraint. If you're so awesome at evaluating NFL talent, why are you posting on an internet message board?
It'll be even more amusing if Charles Brown ever sees the field. A laugh a minute. A regular riot.
I am not sure our lot would be much improved if Gaines saw the field. Brown is pretty awful, the best thing I can saw about Gaines is that he MAY not be awful.
It has nothing to do with keeping Brown, Robinson, Brewer over Quarles. You need a certain number of players at each position. Even if they cut one of those 3 and kept Quarles for the time being, they would have to pick up another OL or TE and cut him after.
A better argument is keeping him over Kuhn or Wynn.
However, when we who aren't even qualified to be part time scouts, talent evaluators, coaches, etc introduce our opinion (which should be humble btw) as fact we look foolish. Not saying some on here couldn't be right, but as BB56 said, Perspective.
Higher than Wilson. Not sure I have even heard that suggested anywhere other than just now.
Either TC or Reese stated that there was one player more highly rated than Wilson on their board. Later someone reported with confidence that it was Glenn, iirc.
They did let that slip, and several beats confirmed it was Glenn. I was told while we were on the clock Glenn was BPA but they were concerned over his work ethic and attitude.
we drafted the playmaker they believed was vital to growing a new dimension the offense, and we know how much they prefer playmakers early and often in the draft.
The draft pick misses that have killed this roster more than DW over Glenn are the Austin/Sintim/Barden/Beckum misses in rounds 2-3, and the bad luck career-ending injuries to Smith, T2, DW, and Chad Jones.
Fuqua wasn't cut, he was traded along with LB Henry Davis for that immortal QB Dick Shiner
[quote] concede we probably have gone overboard with the Quarles/Gaines situations. But I reject the broader point that fans "sitting on the couch" shouldn't criticize the "experts" on the coaching staff or the FO. That's what fans do, and it seems especially defensible given all the bad personnel decisions of the past few years. I am also not of the crowd screaming to bench Eli.
Let me also say that I don't hate Kuhn, and in fact going into camp was arguing against those who said he should be cut. But Quarles outplayed him, and is younger. Even more mystifying is why Gaines was cut in favor of Brewer or Brown. Does anybody really think that Brown wasn't anything but awful this preseason? [/quote
Exactly. I tired of hearing that I shouldnt question the experts. I work in an analytical field where I am generally considered an expert. I deal with uncertainties and unpredictabilities all the time. Sometimes I get things wrong and sometimes nonexperts are more accurate. Often its because they dont have many biases or are not paralyzed by too much information. The idea you cant question the experts is bullshit.
Quote:
Over Quarles and Gaines is a bit amusing.
ain't it. More than a bit.
It'll be even more amusing if Charles Brown ever sees the field. A laugh a minute. A regular riot.
[quote] concede we probably have gone overboard with the Quarles/Gaines situations. But I reject the broader point that fans "sitting on the couch" shouldn't criticize the "experts" on the coaching staff or the FO. That's what fans do, and it seems especially defensible given all the bad personnel decisions of the past few years. I am also not of the crowd screaming to bench Eli.
Let me also say that I don't hate Kuhn, and in fact going into camp was arguing against those who said he should be cut. But Quarles outplayed him, and is younger. Even more mystifying is why Gaines was cut in favor of Brewer or Brown. Does anybody really think that Brown wasn't anything but awful this preseason? [/quote
Exactly. I tired of hearing that I shouldnt question the experts. I work in an analytical field where I am generally considered an expert. I deal with uncertainties and unpredictabilities all the time. Sometimes I get things wrong and sometimes nonexperts are more accurate. Often its because they dont have many biases or are not paralyzed by too much information. The idea you cant question the experts is bullshit.
Not sure why you're mystified. Gaines apparently has an injured shoulder, unless you feel TC was being deceitful..
Either TC or Reese stated that there was one player more highly rated than Wilson on their board. Later someone reported with confidence that it was Glenn, iirc.
Carl BanksVerified account @CarlBanksGIII
@fangclaw @ebenezersamuel Khun is a very good special teams player. And a component back up
If Bromley is capable of playing significant snaps right away, then I have to agree with the general feeling that keeping Kuhn is a mistake. And since I hope Bromley is capable, I guess I'm hoping we made a mistake. Wait, I'm conflicted...
most surprising is that it looks like they might let patterson play a one gap attack and here I was cutting him due to age, keeping kuhn and quarles.
Gaston and Quarles aren't both likely to stick once Easley is ready to play.
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In comment 11834924 Big Blue '56 said:
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you saw a few plays on TV and pissies abound?
He wasn't drafted due to anger management issues. Which is not a big problem for a D Lineman. You want some aggressiveness. Mayock rated him as the fifth best DT in the draft.
Ed, perhaps that's so. However, if it wasn't a big problem as you assert(for DTs), then why didn't 32 other teams view it as simply as you do?
Perhaps it was due to fighting with teammates and general nastiness on and off the field. I guess most teams would rather not deal with that kind of behavior. Giants took a chance and he seemed to have learned some self control. Whatever , Belechick took notice in the last game and grabbed him. His gain our loss. IMHO.
Geez. The legend of little Bill's talent evaluation and turning everyone's trash into all-pros is super warped on BBI.
Besides, seeing BBI in full meltdown over this is worth the price of admission
I never thought much of Quarles, but give me a break with the Kuhn-love. "A 325# block of granite?" Puh-leeze. If you're talking about his mobility, though, I'd tend to agree.
Take a look at the patriots offensive skill position players.
not a lock schwartz goes to short term ir when he is only expected to miss a few games not half the season
his -4 ranking on pft over preseason factors in
Have seen nothing from this guy.....seen nothing from Schwartz....nothing from Brown.....all are still on the team....I know we are stuck with Schwartz, but just makes you wonder...
Have seen nothing from this guy.....seen nothing from Schwartz....nothing from Brown.....all are still on the team....I know we are stuck with Schwartz, but just makes you wonder...
In Kuhn's defense, I saw a number of plays where he was being double teamed, but I think it's more his being a good ST player. Somebody also said that the Pats are short of DT, so they may have just been grabbing for anybody that showed anything during the preseason.
Brewer and Brown both surviving is what's surprising. Even if Gaines had to be waived/injured, isn't there anybody else out there who can replace at least one of them?
2008:
K. Phillips(32) C. Rachal(39) M. Pollack(59)
T. Thomas(63) J. Greco(66) J. Zuttah(83)
Manningham(95) C. Reinhardt(96) C. Wallace(107) K
Leichtensteiger(108) Mike MGlynn(109) S. Murphy(110) A.
Collins(112)
2009:
Nicks(29) E. Britton(39)
Sintim(45) M. Unger(49) A. Levitre(51) P. Loadholdt(54)
Vollmer(58)
Beatty (60) R. Brewster(75) A. Caldwell(77) Vasquez(78) K.
Urbik(79)
Barden(85) J. Luigs(106) T. Lang(109) R. Ornberger(123)
The last 3 lineman after A. Brown combined for 33 total starts
2010: Forget after JPP
L. Joseph(46) V. Ducasse(61) C. Brown(64) J. Asomoah(68) J.
Valdeheer(69) J. Jerry(73)
C. Jones(76) JD Walton(80) S. Luavo(92) M. Johnson(98) B.
Campbell(106)
P. Dillard(115) J. Hawley(117) J. Fox(128)
2011:
P. Amukamarta(19) A.Costanzo(22) D. Watkins(23) J.
Carpenter(28) G. Carimi(29) D. Sherrod(32) O.
Franklin(46) S. Wisnewski(48) B. Ijalana(49)
M. Austin(52) R. Hudson(55) M. Gilbert(63) J. Moffitt(75)
W. Rackley(76)
J. Jernigan(83) J. Reid(85) J. Barksdale(92) C. Boling(101)
D. Arkin(110)
The 3 OL taken after Brewer have performed the same as Brewer
2012:
After WIlson, you could argue about Schwartz, but Glenn was not viewed as an NFL LT. The other guys picked within 10 of Wilson are guards. Konz and M. Adams are bad.
The guys picked after Randle - LeRibeus, Stephenson, Brooks Holmes have not played much.
Look at the guys picked after Holsey - there is not much
I do not see a lot of neglect based upon draft picks and position, specifically LT and even RT. Majority of these guys are G. They were never going to draft Unger with Ohara here.
You can clearly debate some things about Reese and the draft, but the OL 'neglect' issue is really not part of that
It took 29 posts for you to respond with your inane bullshit.
Bravo on your restraint. If you're so awesome at evaluating NFL talent, why are you posting on an internet message board?
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In comment 11834898 Rob in NYC said:
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Over Quarles and Gaines is a bit amusing.
ain't it. More than a bit.
It'll be even more amusing if Charles Brown ever sees the field. A laugh a minute. A regular riot.
I am not sure our lot would be much improved if Gaines saw the field. Brown is pretty awful, the best thing I can saw about Gaines is that he MAY not be awful.
A better argument is keeping him over Kuhn or Wynn.
We have draft failures in the 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6, and we are arguing about undrafted and 7th round players?
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Higher than Wilson. Not sure I have even heard that suggested anywhere other than just now.
Either TC or Reese stated that there was one player more highly rated than Wilson on their board. Later someone reported with confidence that it was Glenn, iirc.
They did let that slip, and several beats confirmed it was Glenn. I was told while we were on the clock Glenn was BPA but they were concerned over his work ethic and attitude.
The draft pick misses that have killed this roster more than DW over Glenn are the Austin/Sintim/Barden/Beckum misses in rounds 2-3, and the bad luck career-ending injuries to Smith, T2, DW, and Chad Jones.
We have draft failures in the 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 6, and we are arguing about undrafted and 7th round players?
I think there still would be a lot of people making noise no matter who claimed him.
Plenty of people wanted to keep him over Kuhn before it was known he was claimed. A lot of us were hoping to get him on the PS.
Absolutely!