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NFT: BofA Visa rejected my chargeback dispute; now what?

Vout-O-Reenie : 9/1/2014 12:51 pm
If any other Giants fans have experience with this, I'd appreciate any advice.

As briefly as possible, I took my 14-yr-old Mercedes wagon in for an alignment to a Mercedes-only place that's supposedly the only repair shop in the area (other than the dealer) that has the equipment to align the car. As mechanics are wont to do, they found front end parts that needed to be changed, and claimed the pair of front axles were bad by virtue of the boots being ripped. The options they gave me were either new axles ($3500), or have mine taken apart, cleaned in the parts washer, and re-greased. I chose the latter

Long story short, the clunking and grinding when turning the wheel after they gave the car back to me was so bad that I couldn't drive it. For an additional $500, they said they could put in refurbished axles (why this wasn't offered to begin with is unclear). I had them do it, and then I asked for the pair of new rubber boots ($200) that they'd installed during the failed "reconditioning" attempt a few days earlier. They refused to return them, even though a few calls by me to axle reman companies proved that they don't need any rubber back with the cores, as it goes straight to the garbage anyhow.

For the 1st time in 20 years of having a Visa card, I filed a chargeback dispute for the failed reconditioning portion of the bill and for the rubber boots that they would not give to me: a total of $680. This was at the end of June, and I figured it was a closed case until I got a notice on Friday saying they'd decided along with the merchant. Along with the notice was a copy of the merchant's rebuttal, which was a rant about how I'd twisted their arm to take my money and recondition my axles themselves, rather than go with the $3500 axles that they'd advised for me. They stuck by the story that they had to return the brand new boots with the cores for credit.

If anyone's been through this, am I wasting my time by trying to appeal the decision, or is the $680 a lost cause? Do I have any other options? Naturally I'm leaving out details because I know that nobody wants to read ad nauseam about another guy's problems on the internet, but suffice it to say that the customer service was beyond terrible. Thanks...
There's always small claims court  
Wuphat : 9/1/2014 12:53 pm : link
No idea if you'd prevail, but it's an option.
Doesn't the  
old man : 9/1/2014 1:34 pm : link
back of the statement say to report unsettled disputes to Fed. Reserve or Fed Banking commission?
Plus what Wu said.

Good luck.
start cancelling your accounts with them  
mdc1 : 9/1/2014 1:56 pm : link
and that will likely get their attention and possibly change their position.
Bet o  
dontboobigblue : 9/1/2014 2:23 pm : link
On the lions monday night and youll get your money back
I'd write to Mercedes -- not the dealership  
Maximus, Esq. : 9/1/2014 2:29 pm : link
Directly to the company. Explain your position and demand a refund. I had a bad experience with a dealership which was somewhat similar to this. The company addressed the issue the dealership wouldn't. If all else fails, then file a small claims complaint. Dealership would need to hire counsel to appear in small claims court which, I guarantee, would cost them more than $680.
Max, perhaps I read this incorrectly.  
GiantJohn : 9/1/2014 2:54 pm : link
He did not bring the car to a dealership for repair work. Why write to Mercedes if their dealership did not do work?
RE: I'd write to Mercedes -- not the dealership  
Hammer : 9/1/2014 3:04 pm : link
In comment 11836080 Maximus, Esq. said:
Quote:
Directly to the company. Explain your position and demand a refund. I had a bad experience with a dealership which was somewhat similar to this. The company addressed the issue the dealership wouldn't. If all else fails, then file a small claims complaint. Dealership would need to hire counsel to appear in small claims court which, I guarantee, would cost them more than $680.


The OP didn't go to the dealer.

Small claims court seems like the only option. The fun thing about small claims court is that if you are dealing with a corporation they cannot be represented pro se (at least not in NJ, I'm not sure about NY). They have to hire counsel so they might be willing to settle.

It seems that the issues is going to be evidentiary, in terms of how are you going to establish that you justifiably relied on their advise when they are contending that you "twisted their arm" to do the repair rather than the replace.

In my case I could claim that I do not know anything about cars, let alone repairs of transaxals. Your best bet is to state that you were given two options, were told that they would both work, and chose one. You were justified in relying on the mechanics representation and they are responsible for any further repairs because their original recommendation didn't work out.

And, in addition, I would steer as far as possible away from Bank Of America. The blow, and not in a good way.

Good luck.
Got as far as  
That Said : 9/1/2014 3:12 pm : link
"wont to do"

Kudos. A bright light in a room of dim bulbs. Whatever your dispute is, best of luck!
Thanks  
Vout-O-Reenie : 9/1/2014 3:17 pm : link
for the replies. I will look into small claims court, but I'm not sure if I have the time or if it's worth throwing more $$ into. I'm going to call Visa calmly tomorrow, and if I don't get anywhere, I think I'll get an American Express and cancel the Visa, as someone alluded to.

To clarify, I did not go to a Mercedes dealership. They first told me that the rebuilt axles came from the Mercedes dealer, but it proved to be untrue.

Sorry to take everyone's time up with this, but it's a pretty depressing situation at a time when I really don't have the disposable cash to be flushing like this. It's like watching a guy on your team steal 2B in baseball, and the other team challenges the call. They show the replay 5 times from every angle, and the guy is clearly safe. The umpires come back and rule OUT. I don't know how Visa can reverse what seems like a cut-and-dried situation, and I don't know who to appeal to next.

I tried leaving reviews on Yelp & GooglePlus, but somehow, both were filtered out and not posted. It's a double whammy: I've allowed myself to delve into this negativity on a day off where I should be enjoying the time with my wife & young kid, and it was all for naught anyhow.
Small claims. Have your shit together  
chiro56 : 9/1/2014 3:40 pm : link
Sounds like you have a good case. But even if you win, sometimes if you prevail in court they can make it tough to collect. But I doubt a dealership would want to do that . But go after it. Good luck
Ah my bad!  
Maximus, Esq. : 9/1/2014 4:11 pm : link
Thought he brought it to a dealership. Yeah small claims is your best bet
Just a few thoughts...  
Dan in the Springs : 9/1/2014 6:40 pm : link
first, if you want a part that is reportedly going "straight to the garbage" you better ask for that part when you leave your vehicle for the first time. It seems a bit unfair that two days AFTER you picked your vehicle up you expect them to be able to get return that part to you. It most likely went "straight to the garbage". Why should they have held it for you, even to the point of delivery, much less for some time afterward? Maybe I'm misunderstanding your story, but it seems like weak sauce to NOT pay for the service you did request because they can't/won't return the used part that is traditionally thrown out and that you never initially asked for.

Second, the dispute process for Visa is extremely rigid. Folks who work in disputes for the bank typically require a minimum of six months training before they are able to work a case on their own. I worked as a corporate trainer for a large credit card operation and can tell you that it was a full year to train employees on disputes. This is important because your bank works for you in a dispute, and the merchant's bank works for them. VISA is the association that does not get involved directly in any disputes - they are between the parties involved, and the process is resolved through their banks.

I tell you this so you'll understand something important here: How your initial dispute was filed drives everything about the dispute process. There are something like 26 categories of disputes (I honestly can't remember the total - it's been around 15 years since I was involved with this stuff. Maybe someone will check in and correct me on this). Anyway, when you make your dispute if you file it as a certain type (like didn't receive the service) then it would be incumbent on the merchant to prove that the service was indeed provided. Often all that would require is a job order signed as received by you, with an explanation from the merchant with their position on it. On the other hand, if the dispute was different (such as a quality of work dispute), then you'd have alternative routes toward resolution. So you need to get the right disputes person on the phone and discuss with them the options for filing that would give you the best chance to make your case.

In terms of small-claims court, I think that is an option against the merchant directly, but would not be possible through VISA or your bank. Generally speaking (I believe this is universal, but an attorney would be better suited to speak to this), the terms of agreement with any VISA card call for the dispute process to be a binding arbitration process. While you may seek relief in court for your grievance, any solutions will be resolved between the parties themselves and NOT through the banks, IIRC.

Good luck with what you're trying to do. Sorry to hear about your bad luck with the car.

Oh yeah...  
Dan in the Springs : 9/1/2014 6:51 pm : link
forgot, but getting a $680 "courtesy" adjustment directly from the bank because of the threat of account closure would be unlikely, but not impossible to do. Definitely depends on your total relationship with the bank.

One good thing about Bank of America. They have a retail presence (compared to other credit card issuing banks). What this means to you is that you could possibly get a refund through that channel.

If your relationship is large enough you can get fees like this waived for sure, but it sounds like that isn't the case. Just the same, know that any bank manager or assistant manager in the retail bank has a certain amount of freedom to waive fees in the name of customer service that they can apply. This amount might be over the amount they can give without higher clearance. I don't know current limits, but wouldn't be surprised if its capped at around $500. Also, the manager will have higher limits than the assistant manager. They are likely to be reluctant to do this much, but if you get the right person, it might happen. They have their waived fees tracked closely, and they are reported on monthly. They are responsible to keep that number low.

At the same time, they have a customer "delight" score they are responsible for as well, so it is possible that you could get someone who is willing to do this for you. What the heck have you got to lose?

Even if your balances are small, you might influence them based on the possible business you could bring. For example, if you are planning to buy a home soon, if your income is going to change anytime soon, they will be more likely to do what they can for you.

One strategy could be to go to the bank, ask to speak with the manager about a windfall you are about to receive (inheritance?), then ask them about their services. When you are done listening to them they will want you to open some kind of account, and you let them know that you're seeing another bank as well. Then you can let them know that you've been recently dissatisfied with the resolution to your recent dispute. This might lead them to making a courtesy adjustment to your account. Even if it's 250, it could be worth a shot. Then the windfall could be delayed in probate basically forever so you don't have to worry about it.

Lots to think about here.
As a Banker I can only add that  
SwirlingEddie : 9/1/2014 7:18 pm : link
Dan's information and advice here is spot on.

+1
Dan  
Vout-O-Reenie : 9/1/2014 9:46 pm : link
I really appreciate your detailed, above-and-beyond-the-call-of-duty response. Thanks for having taken the time and the interest. I will say that you misunderstood the "in the garbage" part, or more likely, my abridged version of the details were too tough to follow.

When I went to pick the car up the first time (thinking that this business of disassembling, cleaning, and re-greasing the axles would prolong their life, as the professional mechanic had offered), the main mechanic approached me before I even got into the car to say that the process hadn't worked out as well as he'd expected (understatement), and that he'd located genuine Mercedes axles that had been rebuilt by Mercedes, and that he would buy them and install them for an additional $500. His bill up to that point for removing my existing axles, plus four hours labor on cleaning them, plus two new rubber boot covers was $680. I asked why this option hadn't been offered in the first place, and he told me that this was a very rare pair of Mercedes rebuilds that he located via computer on the shelf of a Mercedes dealership, as Mercedes had stopped doing rebuilds years ago.

I later researched it to find that the story was a complete fabrication, and that Mercedes never ever remanufactured axles. When I picked the car up a few days later with the purported "genuine Mercedes" rebuilt axles, I asked for the boot covers that they'd installed the first time. That's when they told me that they required them to be returned for credit with the cores.

"But wait a minute. You told me that these were the last rebuilt pair available from Mercedes as they no longer rebuild them, but now you're saying that you need the boots that you just charged me @$200 for in order to turn them into the rebuilder with the cores for a refund. So which is it?"

"Umm...well I'm not actually sure where our service manager located them."

Before speaking with the service guy, I googled "Mercedes axles rebuild" on my phone; I quickly found a place in Colorado that's the main source for these. I placed a call, and told them that I was looking to buy rebuilt axles for my 2000 Benz wagon, but the rubber axle boots were gone from my cores. The guy told me not to worry, because they throw all rubber parts straight into the garbage when they receive the cores anyhow, and everything they send out has 100% new rubber components.

Giving that bit of info in turn to the service manager at the repair shop I was standing in, his story then changed to it being 4 hours of labor to remove them from the cores. If I'd be willing to pay an additional 4 hours of labor, he told me, I could then have the boot covers. I told him to produce the cores, show me what the boot covers are, and that I would get them off myself. He refused.

Understanding this now--and assuming you're still following what has turned into a minor novella here--can you offer any further suggestions?
One typo  
Vout-O-Reenie : 9/1/2014 9:57 pm : link
in my previous entry...

<<His bill up to that point for removing my existing axles, plus four hours labor on cleaning them, plus two new rubber boot covers was $680.>>

His bill up to that point for just the cleaning and the two boots was $680; the actual removal and re-attaching of the axles was additional.
Makes a bit more sense now...  
Dan in the Springs : 9/1/2014 10:49 pm : link
Not sure it really changes the bulk of my advice. I was thinking about the categories of disputes that are used, and it seems to me that one of them is specifically for all auto related disputes. I'm not 100% sure on that, but it just popped into my memory for some reason. If that is the case, you may have very little option for any further resolution through your bank, and your best option is to seek credit through your local BofA branch. This is because associates who work these kinds of cases are very familiar with all types of complaints and would have exhausted already all resources in attempting to resolve this in your favor.

I'd still make a call - get through to the disputes department, and confirm what type of dispute was filed. Get a dispute specialist - not your typical Customer Service rep though. They are the ones who can tell you if there are any options remaining.

You should know that dispute specialists take pride in trying to win these claims for their customers. Basically those experienced associates are there to represent your interest, and if they couldn't resolve it then you are likely out of luck that way.

Doesn't mean that you have to eat the entire thing though - try getting your branch to give you a credit using the techniques I described.

I'd also consider asking the shop for a discount, refund, credit of any kind. While they may be very unwilling to refund you anything, you might find them willing to offer you free/discounted services that you would otherwise have to pay for. I can understand why you wouldn't go back to these guys - but there's no reason why they couldn't throw in some basic services if you left an impression that you might not consider the relationship totally shot. Get them to throw in some oil changes for you. I know the oil my Mercedes runs on (full synthetic, something like 7 quarts) is pricy and a single "signature service" at my local Jiffy Lube costs me something like $120 on it. If you even got them to do one of those for free you'd be better off.

Good luck with it!
I'm a merchant and every few years we get a charge-back  
PeterS : 9/2/2014 2:30 pm : link
and we guard against it by having our terms of service printed on the bill. I provide a written statement along with a copy of the signed credit card receipt and invoice with the terms at the bottom.

A card member can dispute a charge two times. (The cost to the retailer is $25 per chargeback.) After that, small claims is your only other option.

If you haven't already done so, take the car to another dealer and have the work checked out. Small claims is a hassel.
Thanks  
Vout-O-Reenie : 9/2/2014 9:03 pm : link
again for all of your advice.

I called into BofA today, and as usually seems to be the case with the first person to attend in these types of situations, the initial phone person was pretty much useless.

The disputes manager who I got though to was pro, and though the best he could offer me was a courtesy $100 credit, I appreciated his candid advice. He said that my mistake was to have allowed the garage to repair the car a second time; had I arranged for it to be towed to another mechanic (as Peter above just pointed out) after I first picked it up and found the front end to be in far worse condition than when I dropped it off, I could have had the next mechanic sign an affidavit of sorts explaining how shoddy the work was, how the axles never should have been taken apart, etc. The fact that the mechanic I'd attempted to charge back had rectified the situation--regardless of the fact that I paid for the labor two times--basically absolves them of wrong-doing in the eyes of BofA Visa.

It surprised me that I didn't get the money returned at very least for the rubber boot covers that they charged me @$200 for only to take them right off the car again (and likely install onto the Benz of another unsuspecting customer for another @$200), but the supervisor told me that their claim of needing to return them for core credit muddied the waters enough for BofA to stay out of it. He said that my only recourse at this point is small claims court, which I will look into, but I'm not sure if I have the time or energy to put into it. (My state is one where a corporation can represent themselves pro se, so I wouldn't have the prospect of hiring a lawyer help to serve as a deterrent to them.) As pissed as I am at being shown zero respect by this morally bankrupt company that shook me upside down until all the $$$ fell out of my pockets, I'm wondering if I should simply cut my losses and not throw good money after bad here.

Go Giants!
Goddamn  
Some Fan : 9/2/2014 9:24 pm : link
A lot of words in this thread for $680. I've seen businesses sold with less discussion.
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