I would use the winter to see if Herrera can learn left field.I don't care how much money Granderson makes the mets can't keep him in the line up amd pretend that they are trying to win games.Unless they can get a good player for Murphy or Herrera I would keep Murphy at second try Herrera in left and play den Dekker in right.Herrera could be a very good lead off hitter.
You want someone who can slug in the corner spots. Â
lineup with Herrera, Murphy, Lagares, TDA and den Dekker as 5/8 starters is going to have trouble scoring runs
Don't really get why Murphy is being lumped in with that group, he's a good offensive player (not great, but certainly good).
Ranks in Offensive Runs Above Average at 2B, per FanGraphs:
2014: 5th
2013: 7th
2012: 13th
2011: 7th (not showing up on the leaderboard because he played much less 2B in 2011, but he would be 7th).
He's at worst the third-best offensive player on the team, behind Wright if Wright finds his stroke, and presumably Duda, and even then, Murphy has a longer track record of being an above-average offensive player than does Duda.
Being lumped in because he's a 10-15 homer good 2b but suddenly he has to be your 2nd or 3rd best player when 1 is a pitcher and the 4 pthers are Herrera (out of position no less), lagares (not much of a bat), den dekker (again more glove than bat), and a short stop (likely not a huge offensive talent) so your "big" bats are wright, Murphy and duda.. Didn't we see how that went this year? Herrera, den dekker and a new short stop vs Granderson , Chris Younf (awful no doubt) and tejada... Sorry not seeing anything resembling a good lineup.. Not close
Is you have 8 offensive positions. 1 is wright, 1 is duda , 1 is lagares, 1 is Murphy... Lagares value is his glove. Mdd, Herrera (again now out of position where his bat is downgraded substantially if he can even play the position (very weak arm to begin with), "a short stop" and tda.. Not good
" Herrera, who the Mets acquired from the Pirates along with Vic Black for Marlon Byrd and John Buck was impressive as one of the youngest players in the FSL and is the youngest player in the Eastern League and the third-youngest in double-A. Herrera, who turned 20 in March, graduated with a .307/.355/.420 line in 67 games in the FSL, finishing 10th in the League in batting average while landing at #2 in total bases. He has bat-speed, contact ability, a touch of pop, and is a threat on the bases, where he was 14-for-17 stealing bases in the season’s first half. Herrera played 19 games at shortstop for St. Lucie. Scouts were unimpressed and did not think he had the range to handle the position everyday in the big leagues. Even so, exposing him to the position makes him a little more versatile and a little more valuable to any roster. Jeff Moore at Baseball Prospectus, who’s watched Herrera a few times recently saw him shortening his swing, and improving in the last few months: “he has made great strides in limiting that wrap and shortening his stroke. He’s still not a big power producer, but his swing has gone from that of an athlete swinging a bat to a true hitter. He’s much more direct to the ball and is making more consistent contact, a major step forward for a contact/speed type hitter.”
Being lumped in because he's a 10-15 homer good 2b but suddenly he has to be your 2nd or 3rd best player when 1 is a pitcher and the 4 pthers are Herrera (out of position no less), lagares (not much of a bat), den dekker (again more glove than bat), and a short stop (likely not a huge offensive talent) so your "big" bats are wright, Murphy and duda.. Didn't we see how that went this year? Herrera, den dekker and a new short stop vs Granderson , Chris Younf (awful no doubt) and tejada... Sorry not seeing anything resembling a good lineup.. Not close
I don't disagree that the lineup as currently constituted is not close to being good enough. I just don't think it makes sense to lump Murphy in with the other four guys, he's one of the better offensive 2B in baseball and has been for a few years now. You can have a perfectly good offense with him as your fourth best bat. The problem is that this year he's been at worst the second-best bat (Duda has a better batting line, but after adjusting for positional scarcity and Murphy's plus baserunning, it's pretty damn close), last year he was the third-best bat behind Wright and Byrd, etc.
You can have a successful offense with Murphy as anywhere from the third-to-fifth most valuable contributor - in 2011 he was anywhere from 3rd to 5th depending on how you evaluate him vs. Wright vs. Duda, and the Mets finished 6th in the NL in offense.
The problem isn't Murphy - if anything he's slightly better now than he was then - it's that everything surrounding him on offense has gotten worse with the exception of Duda. And so I think it's a little disingenuous to lump him in with the other four guys, as if he's somehow part of the problem. He may not end up being part of the long-term solution, because the Mets have other players who may turn out to be more cost-effective solutions at 2B, but if the Mets aren't scoring enough runs it sure isn't Murphy's fault. He's one of the only position players who's actually earning his paycheck.
is anything but a problem. That wasn't my implication. My point was Murphy is good/very good, he's not a #2-#3 best offensive player on a playoff team (certainly not with a Wright/Duda combo being your 1 and 2) so you start sticking Herrera in LF, pencil in Lagares and MDD (who hasn't hit at all in the bigs), TDA and a SS and it leaves you with very little chance of being good. Murphy isn't the problem at all but Murphy AND Herrera will not be in the same lineup for the Mets. One will be somewhere else.
The Mets seem to have a few different viable options at 2B, and a number of spots to fill. And he does have one more year of arbitration left. If I'm the Mets and I have confidence in one of Flores/Herrera to be at least league-average at 2B, I'd try to turn Murphy into an average-or-better corner OF.
against dek Dekker but outside of walking a bit more he's been just as bad as last year .207/.270/.276 last year, .208/.303/.260 this year, yeah it's only 61 games overall but the guy is 27 years old. He and Kirk may just be AAAA players.
I think he means "turn" as in trade but hard time seeing a team giving up a good corner OF for 1 year of Daniel Murphy at 8+ million and "the right" to give him a new contract.
I think he means "turn" as in trade but hard time seeing a team giving up a good corner OF for 1 year of Daniel Murphy at 8+ million and "the right" to give him a new contract.
Yes, I mean turn as in trade. And obviously you're not getting a Stanton back for Murphy, not even close. But Murphy has established himself as a two-to-three win player by almost any metric. Can he pull an above-average cost-controlled outfielder back? No, but he should be able to get a comparable outfielder who is also about to get expensive, or a cost-controlled OF if the Mets are willing to make a package with Murphy in it.
Point is (obviously), if the Mets view either Flores or Herrera as a potential long-term solution at 2B, it would behoove them to try and find out next year. If they don't think any of those guys can stick at 2B, then they aren't going to stick in a corner either, so they should try to turn those players into something else. What they shouldn't do is stand pat - it's a waste of resources to keep two potential 2B trapped behind a proven incumbent while you have major issues at other positions.
don't think they view Flores (or Puello) as much and think either/both are dealt in the off-season, end up being waiver claims (both out of options) in 2015. Not saying they are right or wrong.
RE: at some point, the Mets have to stop trading all their best players Â
for prospects if they ever want to become competitive. Ugh, this team.
Guys like Mike Trout, Miguel Cabrera, etc. NEVER hit Free Agency in their prime. The way you get them is to draft them or trade for them when they are prospects. Trading your prospects for top players or signing a bunch of Free Agents does not lead to lasting success. If you do not have prospects and you sign a Jason Bay and you are not picking in the Top 10 you are losing a first round pick as well so if he flops you have NOBODY in your system to replace him. The Mets problems stemmed from poor drafting and a misconception that the only way to build a team is through Free Agency
Are the three obvious teams with excess OF that the Mets can match up. Best case scenario is a three way with the Rockies to net Dickerson. Cheap, young of who fits the desires of a player in the Sandy mold to a T.
Murphy + to team X such as the orioles. Young highly rated pitching prospect from team X to the Rockies. Dickerson to Mets
Between moving Murphy plus a starter, plenty of money in huge budget to acquire talent at SS or elsewhere.
see no way the Rockies deal Dickerson. Young, cheap, cost controlled. I suspect the price for him would be insane and beyond what say a Gausman would bring back (I doubt Murphy would bring back a huge pitching prospect) and even if he did... I would suggest that still wouldn't be enough for a guy about to put up a 3+ WAR season who just turned 25 and not arbitration eligible until 2017
Well, they have to do something. Only so many spots to play so many players. Safe to assume they would move CarGo if they could, but I think that just got a lot harder for them to do. Selling about as low as possible there.
Most contenders seem fine in the Of, but a few really need a 2b. Mets go into this offseason sitting pretty with Murphy. As much demand as there is for an OF with a 3WAR season. There is more demand for a 3 WAR 2B.
Just using them as an example.
What would you think it would take for the mets to acquire Dickerson directly?
And what do you see the Mets getting for Murphy in a hypothetical trade?
don't believe outside of Thor, deGrom or Wheeler the Mets have a headliner to land Dickerson and I'm not even sure the Rockies deal him for one. A young "proven" regular is really, really hard to find. The Rockies DO have a bunch of OF talent but I don't think Dickerson is the one who goes. For instance, I really like Matz but almost no way the Rockies deal him for Matz. Dickerson sure looks like the real deal to me.
breakout isn't even all that shocking. He's hit at every level and then put up solid numbers as a rookie in 69 games. I wonder if teams inquired him after last season?
breakout isn't even all that shocking. He's hit at every level and then put up solid numbers as a rookie in 69 games. I wonder if teams inquired him after last season?
Is he good enough to deal Thor for in your opinion?
would be a very tough call for me. He has a 137 wRC+ which takes into account park factors, that ranks him 21st in all of baseball (not just OF's). Track record would be the issue but I'd love to see the FO have some guts for a move like that if they felt conviction for a player.
spoke to Adam Rubin right before the deadline via email and he said the Mets didn't get offers for Murphy they "deemed fair in-season" but he thought Murphy would more likely than not be moved (in part because of his salary/impending contract). Some teams apparently grade him more poorly defensively than others (The Blue Jays apparently had zero interest due to his glove). If I had a guess a 3 way deal (not too dissimilar to what you suggested but with a lesser return) being the most realistic outcome here. I wouldn't worry about getting back a SS or an OF, get inventory. I still would like to buy low on someone like Brad Miller (not Murphy for Miller, just in general). They apparently LOVE Herrera, scouts have really warmed to him, hopefully they find one team like Baltimore or the White Sox who see Murphy as a solid addition.
If Mets offer Marlins any 3 prospects for Stanton (+Wheeler or JDG) Â
If so, who would the other 3 be besides Wheeler or deGrom? Strongest offer is probably Wheeler, Thor, Nimmo, and Herrera? I'd almost definitely do that.
Harvey - Colon - Niese - Gee - JdG
(Matz/Montero still in the system)
The Pirates ("stupid but not crazy") offer last deadline wasn't as good as yours Eric. And the Marlins gave it some thought, for the first time ever. So I'd imagine it's in the ballpark.
I've said it many times before. I'd make an offer to the. Marlins in the "stupid" range. Pick any five prospects, done deal. You want a major leaguer (wheeler/DeGrom, etc) then you get your choice of three prospects with him. Blow up the farm for Stanton, take a chance to re energize the fan base.
If you were to say 2 years ago that the Mets have a guy in their system who will not only be the best defensive CF in baseball but hit .280?? I'd say you were shitting me.
Talk about pleasant surprises. I know I'm not up on prospects like most of you but, what was his scouting report pre-majors?
People said last year it was IMPOSSIBLE he would hit more than .260. Well, he improved as a hitter. I know his BABIP is still high but I think he's one of those players where it will always be high. He's also very fast and should be able to improve his base stealing ability as well. If he can hit .290 and steal 20 bases with his defense he will be an absolute star in this league.
Don't really get why Murphy is being lumped in with that group, he's a good offensive player (not great, but certainly good).
Ranks in Offensive Runs Above Average at 2B, per FanGraphs:
2014: 5th
2013: 7th
2012: 13th
2011: 7th (not showing up on the leaderboard because he played much less 2B in 2011, but he would be 7th).
He's at worst the third-best offensive player on the team, behind Wright if Wright finds his stroke, and presumably Duda, and even then, Murphy has a longer track record of being an above-average offensive player than does Duda.
I mostly agree on the other four guys though.
I don't disagree that the lineup as currently constituted is not close to being good enough. I just don't think it makes sense to lump Murphy in with the other four guys, he's one of the better offensive 2B in baseball and has been for a few years now. You can have a perfectly good offense with him as your fourth best bat. The problem is that this year he's been at worst the second-best bat (Duda has a better batting line, but after adjusting for positional scarcity and Murphy's plus baserunning, it's pretty damn close), last year he was the third-best bat behind Wright and Byrd, etc.
You can have a successful offense with Murphy as anywhere from the third-to-fifth most valuable contributor - in 2011 he was anywhere from 3rd to 5th depending on how you evaluate him vs. Wright vs. Duda, and the Mets finished 6th in the NL in offense.
The problem isn't Murphy - if anything he's slightly better now than he was then - it's that everything surrounding him on offense has gotten worse with the exception of Duda. And so I think it's a little disingenuous to lump him in with the other four guys, as if he's somehow part of the problem. He may not end up being part of the long-term solution, because the Mets have other players who may turn out to be more cost-effective solutions at 2B, but if the Mets aren't scoring enough runs it sure isn't Murphy's fault. He's one of the only position players who's actually earning his paycheck.
OK, looks like we're on the same page then.
And besides, he'd have to become a better power hitter.
Yes, I mean turn as in trade. And obviously you're not getting a Stanton back for Murphy, not even close. But Murphy has established himself as a two-to-three win player by almost any metric. Can he pull an above-average cost-controlled outfielder back? No, but he should be able to get a comparable outfielder who is also about to get expensive, or a cost-controlled OF if the Mets are willing to make a package with Murphy in it.
Point is (obviously), if the Mets view either Flores or Herrera as a potential long-term solution at 2B, it would behoove them to try and find out next year. If they don't think any of those guys can stick at 2B, then they aren't going to stick in a corner either, so they should try to turn those players into something else. What they shouldn't do is stand pat - it's a waste of resources to keep two potential 2B trapped behind a proven incumbent while you have major issues at other positions.
Guys like Mike Trout, Miguel Cabrera, etc. NEVER hit Free Agency in their prime. The way you get them is to draft them or trade for them when they are prospects. Trading your prospects for top players or signing a bunch of Free Agents does not lead to lasting success. If you do not have prospects and you sign a Jason Bay and you are not picking in the Top 10 you are losing a first round pick as well so if he flops you have NOBODY in your system to replace him. The Mets problems stemmed from poor drafting and a misconception that the only way to build a team is through Free Agency
Murphy + to team X such as the orioles. Young highly rated pitching prospect from team X to the Rockies. Dickerson to Mets
Between moving Murphy plus a starter, plenty of money in huge budget to acquire talent at SS or elsewhere.
Most contenders seem fine in the Of, but a few really need a 2b. Mets go into this offseason sitting pretty with Murphy. As much demand as there is for an OF with a 3WAR season. There is more demand for a 3 WAR 2B.
Just using them as an example.
And what do you see the Mets getting for Murphy in a hypothetical trade?
Is he good enough to deal Thor for in your opinion?
Know do you value murphy in a trade? What do you see teams offering for him?
If so, who would the other 3 be besides Wheeler or deGrom? Strongest offer is probably Wheeler, Thor, Nimmo, and Herrera? I'd almost definitely do that.
Harvey - Colon - Niese - Gee - JdG
(Matz/Montero still in the system)
I've said it many times before. I'd make an offer to the. Marlins in the "stupid" range. Pick any five prospects, done deal. You want a major leaguer (wheeler/DeGrom, etc) then you get your choice of three prospects with him. Blow up the farm for Stanton, take a chance to re energize the fan base.
Flores 2/3 with 2 runs in the 8th hole. Not sure how he is batting behind the AA player Herrera.
Talk about pleasant surprises. I know I'm not up on prospects like most of you but, what was his scouting report pre-majors?