Dave Diehl is co-hosting this morning, so there was some good Giants talk. A caller said that Eli didn't seem to be a good fit for the new offense, and mentioned the shortage of quality WR's with Beckam not being able to get on the field. Diehl went thruogh the whole spiel about the offensive line taking time to gel, but then brought up that Eli is 11th all time in 4th quarter comebacks for a reason, because the up tempo offense gives him the ability to call plays/audible at the line, and that Eli is at his best when he is up tempo and reacting to the defense, and doing things with cadence to get them to show their hand. Said we're going to see more of that this year. It actually made me feel better about the offense, because I feel like the one drive that we've seen this pre-season was exactly that, so hopefully that's an actual glimpse of what the offense will look like over other stuff we've seen.
Papa then moved on to the recievers. Basically blamed Randle for all of the miscommunications. Said that Tom Coughlin was "sick and tired" of hearing "I saw one thing and he saw another" in the meeting room. He said Randle's miscommunication on third down was the "worst play of the game".
He said you always see Eli and Randle on the sideline pointing and talking, and one's gesturing one way, and the other is gesturing the other... Mentioned you never see him doing that with Cruz.
Said this is Randle's third year and it shouldn't be happening anymore.
Why can't they just do that. He runs his route no matter what and take the read out.
Why can't they just do that. He runs his route no matter what and take the read out.
Because with an uptempo offense they need to be able to adjust at the line, be on the same page, and see the same things.
All NFL teams use sight adjustments to some extent, that wasn't unique to Gilbride/Coughlin's offense. That's a basic thing he needs to be able to do.
At some point, it may be better to just send him deep every play so there is no mis-communication :)
I'm souring on Randle pretty fast. He's got to get it together. I still love his ability.. but the mistakes have to stop.
TMS : 9/2/2014 9:20 am : link : reply
seems to have problems understanding or executing the right downfield moves in sync with ELI and the route plan. Notice Peyton always has WRs who can perform those functions regardless of their physical skill sets. This is obviously lost on Reese and Ross when they draft a lot of these guys.
I seem to recall Eric saying something about hearing rumors that Toomer was "dumb as dirt."
Well we all know that after a few season, Toomer righted his ship and became a very productive WR. The most productive WR in Giants history in fact.
My point is that it is too soon to give up on Randle, who comes to the team with several similarities to Toomer.
Both were second round picks from big schools, where they both relied FAR more on their physical gifts than polished techniques to succeed at the college level. Both started out fielding punts early in their careers. Both guys struggled early as starters.
Sure, it would be best if everything clicked for Randle THIS year, but if it doesn't, it doesn't mean you give up on him. At some point, Beckham will get on the field, and either push Randle to do better and keep his job, or Beckham will take it from him, and the problem will work itself out that way.
Randle does not which is disappointing because he is talented.
I seem to recall Eric saying something about hearing rumors that Toomer was "dumb as dirt."
Well we all know that after a few season, Toomer righted his ship and became a very productive WR. The most productive WR in Giants history in fact.
My point is that it is too soon to give up on Randle, who comes to the team with several similarities to Toomer.
Both were second round picks from big schools, where they both relied FAR more on their physical gifts than polished techniques to succeed at the college level. Both started out fielding punts early in their careers. Both guys struggled early as starters.
Sure, it would be best if everything clicked for Randle THIS year, but if it doesn't, it doesn't mean you give up on him. At some point, Beckham will get on the field, and either push Randle to do better and keep his job, or Beckham will take it from him, and the problem will work itself out that way.
This is a good post, especially the last part. Unfortunately, he's the best option we've got right now.
Not alot you can do. Either play him the way he can play, or get rid of him. It would be very irresponsible to continue to expect him to more. If Randle fucks up on game day, some of the blame should be on McAdoo/Coughlin for not seeing this coming.
Not alot you can do. Either play him the way he can play, or get rid of him. It would be very irresponsible to continue to expect him to more. If Randle fucks up on game day, some of the blame should be on McAdoo/Coughlin for not seeing this coming.
Wouldn't drafting Beckam with the 12th overall pick indicate some forsight on their part?
You wanna compare him to Cruz? Cruz is 28 and had to work his ass off just to get into the league. He's a more mature player.
Randle has no excuses, IMO, he has a top notch QB. I can't imagine Peyton putting up with this B.S.
But every time a young guy struggles, we can't just say "well, it happened to Toomer"
Toomer was a unique case. I remember back in like 97 (I think it was 97) there were these stories about how Toomer wasn't even beating out linebackers in sprints and looked tired, slow and just completely not right.
I hope Randle goes on to have something even close to Toomers.. but his focus is what really concerns me.
Randle has no excuses, IMO, he has a top notch QB. I can't imagine Peyton putting up with this B.S.
I didn't make the point in regards to Toomer, but I don't disagree.
and stress the importance of it.
Lol.
Sometimes he says things we, as fans, don't want to hear, but that doesn't make him wrong.
Randle is a straight up DUMBASS who will never get it. The sooner they replace him, the better off they'll be.
Sometimes he says things we, as fans, don't want to hear, but that doesn't make him wrong.
Of course it does. So now you're wrong.
Sometimes he says things we, as fans, don't want to hear, but that doesn't make him wrong.
I think he's by far the best analyst - he just comes across as a smarmy douche sometimes.
You can see it in some of the preseason games this year where both Eli and his position coach are talking to him after one of the "miscommunications" and he is literally looking away..
He is really an enigma and they really need him to get his act together..
When OB gets healthy RR is going to full the push to perform.
Randle may be a dumbass but it is all on him now. Either he wants it or he doesn't...real simple. It's been said over and over...they are in the production business.
But I generally think Collinsworthless is one of the worst color guys because he just never stops talking. He's no Dan Dierdork, who I think is probably the worst color guy (who had serious staying power on the air) over the 40 years I've been watching the NFL. Deirdork talked too much, and he was a fucking idiot. Collinsworthless is at least a smart guy. He has a ways to go before he's on the Dierdork plane, but I think he sucks still the same.
Thanks, Jon.
1) As a staunch Eli supporter
2) Because Eli knows the shit out of football.
3) Randle hasn't come across to me as being particularly hard-working compared to the other WRs.
So it made sense to have RR shoulder most of the blame there.
When he was doing the Hall of Fame game he was talking about guys on the Giants roster that would be considered pretty obscure to anyone who is not a fan of the team. I like that.
He has a nice jack of all trades skillset but nothing about him really stands out. Even if he does put it all together mentally, he doesn't look like he'll ever be a true #1 type WR. At this point he kind of looks like another recent LSU WR who went in the 60-80 range during the draft, Brandon LaFell. Hopefully he improves the mental part of his game and becomes more than another LaFell.
I'm a lot more higher on ODB (another LSU WR) than I ever was Randle. Despite being shorter, he seems to have a bigger catch radius than Randle and better hands. Everyone also mentions what a great route runner he is and he combines that with great speed. The start of his NFL career has been awful due to the hamstring, but he flashed some future #1WR talent in college and I hope he can get his ass healthy and help this passing game when he comes back.
I DOUBT he's flat-out dumb. That stuff usually shows up pre-draft. He could be dumb, but I doubt it. Toomer wasn't.
I just think at 23 years old, he needs to grow up -- which means learning how to WORK and FOCUS like a professional athlete, and a man. It's unlikely he had to do either of those things much at LSU.
Mayock is pretty good too...could use a little less analytics but that is not bad thing versus the stale commentary from some of the other chuckleheads in the booth.
Quote:
That Amani Toomer's first few seasons at WR were really spotty because he couldn't grasp the mental aspects of the position at the pro level. And this was Dan Reeve's give-the-ball-to-Rodney Hampton-every-first-and-second down offense, no less.
I seem to recall Eric saying something about hearing rumors that Toomer was "dumb as dirt."
Well we all know that after a few season, Toomer righted his ship and became a very productive WR. The most productive WR in Giants history in fact.
My point is that it is too soon to give up on Randle, who comes to the team with several similarities to Toomer.
Both were second round picks from big schools, where they both relied FAR more on their physical gifts than polished techniques to succeed at the college level. Both started out fielding punts early in their careers. Both guys struggled early as starters.
Sure, it would be best if everything clicked for Randle THIS year, but if it doesn't, it doesn't mean you give up on him. At some point, Beckham will get on the field, and either push Randle to do better and keep his job, or Beckham will take it from him, and the problem will work itself out that way.
This is a good post, especially the last part. Unfortunately, he's the best option we've got right now.
The difference is, Toomer wasn't as dumb as dirt. Toomer has even mentioned that he had a bit of an attitude problem coming in, the game took a bit of time to settle in, and injuries set him back. However, Toomer worked very hard on his craft, and comparing those two players, you have be careful, because who knows the difference between their smarts and work ethic. Certainly no one here.
he had 44 receptions for 635 yards total over his first 3 yrs.
the 4th yr it clicked for him & he started his 1,00 yd runs.
so let's not give up on randle just yet.
Supposedly, Jim Fassel had a long sit down with Toomer. Fassel encouraged the kid to be the best WR he could be. Put in that extra effort and it will pay off.
Toomer took the talk to heart and the rest is history.
Coughlin needs to make sure Randle gets plenty of extra homework. It should pay off.
Sometimes he says things we, as fans, don't want to hear, but that doesn't make him wrong.
This!
He smiled in those pictures with JR's daughter.
Quote:
Guys like a statue.
He smiled in those pictures with JR's daughter.
He smiled in the picture where he was holding JR's daughter
what doesn't make sense is that we weren't having this many miscommunications between Eli and Randle in Gilbride's offense which arguably had more reads and adjustments. And now one that is supposedly simply is having them have major issues?
611 yards, 6 touchdowns is not "almost a thousand yards and double digit touchdowns"...
At this stage of his career, Randle should be taking his game to a very high level. Instead, he has not shown consistency and I question whether he can carry the load at WR like we need him to. I hope he has a great year but the apparent fuck-ups have me worried.
what doesn't make sense is that we weren't having this many miscommunications between Eli and Randle in Gilbride's offense which arguably had more reads and adjustments. And now one that is supposedly simply is having them have major issues?
What are you talking about?
There were tons of mis-communications last year
Quote:
what were his stats last year? oh yeah almost a thousand yards and double digit touchdowns. He needs to work harder to stop with the mental screw ups but its up to the coaches to use him effectively and get him to minimize these mistakes, not keep asking him to do things he struggles at. That's not putting the player in position to succeed. More the definition of insanity.
611 yards, 6 touchdowns is not "almost a thousand yards and double digit touchdowns"...
Well ... Rounding those numbers ... the statement is factually correct ... 1000 yards and 10 TDs ...
And on the average every American has one testicle and one ovary ... is also factually correct ...
Toomer caught 1 pass his first year in the league and 16 his second year with 1 td.
Randle caught 19 passes his first year and 41 with 6 td's his second.
Seems like he must be doing something to further his NFL career. BTW, Cruz doesn't think this is a big deal.
I guess he *could* be an idiot and what he's "seeing" is a route that leads him right into an awaiting defender or the goalpost or a Gatorade bucket on the sidelines. But couldn't he just see something that would work just as well as what Eli sees?
Wait, isn't it an instant ban for mentioning that name?
Dave - if Randle put up those types of numbers nobody on BBI would care if he changed his name to Forrest Gump.
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totally messed up the call on the trey junkin fiasco.
Wait, isn't it an instant ban for mentioning that name?
RAY HANDLEY
I guess he *could* be an idiot and what he's "seeing" is a route that leads him right into an awaiting defender or the goalpost or a Gatorade bucket on the sidelines. But couldn't he just see something that would work just as well as what Eli sees?
He's had the same issues with Nassib and Painter this off/preseason, when he's been out there with them.
It's him.
I know that I was not the only one who questioned if Collinworth was basing his point of view on the content of the earlier article and then went a step further. I had trouble believing that the source on the Giants would be vague with the beat writers but so definite and clear with the visiting TV guy.
I seem to recall Eric saying something about hearing rumors that Toomer was "dumb as dirt."
I don't know anything about AT's intelligence but I distinctly remember him saying that he made a "mental commitment" do become the best WR he possibly could. He worked harder, trained more, took up marital arts, etc.
Well we all know that after a few season, Toomer righted his ship and became a very productive WR. The most productive WR in Giants history in fact.
My point is that it is too soon to give up on Randle, who comes to the team with several similarities to Toomer.
Both were second round picks from big schools, where they both relied FAR more on their physical gifts than polished techniques to succeed at the college level. Both started out fielding punts early in their careers. Both guys struggled early as starters.
Sure, it would be best if everything clicked for Randle THIS year, but if it doesn't, it doesn't mean you give up on him. At some point, Beckham will get on the field, and either push Randle to do better and keep his job, or Beckham will take it from him, and the problem will work itself out that way.
I know that I was not the only one who questioned if Collinworth was basing his point of view on the content of the earlier article and then went a step further. I had trouble believing that the source on the Giants would be vague with the beat writers but so definite and clear with the visiting TV guy.
That happens all the time. I know for a fact Andy Reid was much more open with the national guys than he was the beat guys...
And, of course, Eli has never thrown a misplaced ball to RR.
NEVER.
That happens all the time. I know for a fact Andy Reid was much more open with the national guys than he was the beat guys...
It's possible that Collinworth was given the straight scoop. It's just that there haven't been too many clear cut cases where the national guy get better info before the Giants beat writer as far as I can remember. I do know Gaziano's predecessor seems to be still wired in but I can't think of too many others.
And, of course, Eli has never thrown a misplaced ball to RR.
NEVER.
I think that Eli's track record over the years leads people to suspect that most cases of clear cut mis-communications probably are the receiver's fault. That's not extonerating Eli from his obvious mistakes or poor throws. Especially when Eli tends to acknowledge afterwards when he messes up or makes a poor throw.
What are you talking about?
There were tons of mis-communications last year
there were not that many miscommunications with Randle last year relative to how many there were with everyone. The offense was a #@%show last year with the line we had.
Toomer caught 1 pass his first year in the league and 16 his second year with 1 td.
Randle caught 19 passes his first year and 41 with 6 td's his second.
Seems like he must be doing something to further his NFL career. BTW, Cruz doesn't think this is a big deal.
And of course if you look at passing statics from them til now you'd find that they are exponentially higher due to till changes. So I guess it's not ok to use 20 20 hindsight but it is OK to ignore not only the opportunities Ramdle got but also whomRandle played w. Who was the great all pro WRs Amani got to play w because having Cruz and Nicks certainly also helped give him opportunities to catch passes.
Randle may or may not be this years whipping boy but if he's earned it why can't people bring up that the guy usually has no clue what route he's supposed to run?
And, of course, Eli has never thrown a misplaced ball to RR.
NEVER.
Bleedin Blue : 8/22/2014 3:28 pm
Frustrated he's not getting the looks he should be getting. He also said he's finding it hard to grasp McAdoo's new offense. We need a Vet to shake these young guys up! That's not Eli's M.O. and I don't think Cruz is that typeeither.
Another bbi member did everyone a favor and transcribed what was actually said:
Here was the full transcript of what was said
BigBlueinChicago : 8/23/2014 12:06 pm : link
This comes from Josina Anderson's live report on Sportscenter:
Quote:
"Wide receiver Reuben Randle says that right now this Giants offense is going through a deprogramming process right now. Particularly that wide receivers group. Randle said that in their former coordinator Kevin Gilbride's system that "we had a certain yardage by which things were happening by, but now things happen by the clock"...and Eli Manning said with that three step and five step timing... Randle also added that, "look, it's not about us and feeling comfortable in an offense that was more deep pass oriented last year. He said what we're doing right now is trying to get adjusted, so running our steps, getting open in a shorter amount of time by a specific time.
(Interview follows with Eli Manning for 30 seconds before the live shot goes back to Josina)
"Meanwhile, Randle admitted to me that it's been a bit frustrating trying to get adjusted to Ben McAdoo's system. He told me, "You know, we see things in practice that we can do in the game and right now I'm not getting those opportunities, so it's a bit frustrating. He says he's trying to gain Eli Manning's trust, but he knows that it's a long system and he's a team player and all he can do is focus on what he can improve."
NFL Insiders Ruben Randle - ( New Window )
Manning had a slightly different take. He blamed the misconnection, in part, on it being a play they hadn't run to this point in the preseason.
"Well, we’ve just got to get the timing down so we’ll look at it on film. I thought it was a little off so we’ve got to fix that," he said. "It’s a play that we haven’t really run in games much, we’ve run it in practice but never really quite got the look we wanted. I wanted to run it just so we got… I knew we needed to work on it in a live situation and sure enough, it didn’t go like we wanted to so it’s something we can continue to work on."
What did Giants coach Tom Coughlin think was the worst play of the night against Patriots? - ( New Window )
BSIMATT. I stand corrected! I could not find a link, I'm sorry I'm not as internet Savvy as others. I tried to bring up that Thread but could not go back that far, cause I wanted to see if someone found a link. I don't remember Josina stating the first paragraph, but it appears I misquoted her second. I will do my due diligence before reporting a story.
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Guys like a statue.
What the hell is that white under his nose on that second picture?
That is why I don't see this offense gelling until week 3 or 4. It will take running the new offense under actual game conditions to get it down. We've heard them say "we've looked good in practice" only to not look in sync game time. I think until the new offense gels our defense will be able to keep us in games. We will definitely see a lot of runs and short passes to the backs til we get it right. I want to stay positive in my hopes for this season, and the defense helps me to.
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Some of you are engaging in 20-20 hindsight with the Toomer comparisons.
Toomer caught 1 pass his first year in the league and 16 his second year with 1 td.
Randle caught 19 passes his first year and 41 with 6 td's his second.
Seems like he must be doing something to further his NFL career. BTW, Cruz doesn't think this is a big deal.
And of course if you look at passing statics from them til now you'd find that they are exponentially higher due to till changes. So I guess it's not ok to use 20 20 hindsight but it is OK to ignore not only the opportunities Ramdle got but also whomRandle played w. Who was the great all pro WRs Amani got to play w because having Cruz and Nicks certainly also helped give him opportunities to catch passes.
Randle may or may not be this years whipping boy but if he's earned it why can't people bring up that the guy usually has no clue what route he's supposed to run?
Quote:
Some of you are engaging in 20-20 hindsight with the Toomer comparisons.
Toomer caught 1 pass his first year in the league and 16 his second year with 1 td.
Randle caught 19 passes his first year and 41 with 6 td's his second.
Seems like he must be doing something to further his NFL career. BTW, Cruz doesn't think this is a big deal.
And of course if you look at passing statics from them til now you'd find that they are exponentially higher due to till changes. So I guess it's not ok to use 20 20 hindsight but it is OK to ignore not only the opportunities Ramdle got but also whomRandle played w. Who was the great all pro WRs Amani got to play w because having Cruz and Nicks certainly also helped give him opportunities to catch passes.
Randle may or may not be this years whipping boy but if he's earned it why can't people bring up that the guy usually has no clue what route he's supposed to run?
Cruz and Nicks both had poor years last year, not all pro years by any stretch, not remotely close. So that theory is shot. In fact, Randle's best games have actually come when he's filled in Nicks, not with Nicks on the field. Also, Randle last year out produced Manningham's 2011 season, the year Nicks and Cruz exploded: higher yards per catch, higher catch rate, higher yards per target, more catches, yards, touchdowns.