http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000388688/article/quarterback-index-ranking-the-starters-132
1. This guy has always shat on Eli for years
2. I'm not going to be shocked at people bashing Eli coming off of last year
...But this bullshit pisses me off
| The Eli Manning from 2011 was the outlier in his career. We don't expect him to get back to that level. |
Yes 2011 was Eli's career year - thus far - but to say he didn't have several other good to great years is absurd. You don't accrue the #'s he has without doing something right.
And some of the guys he has Eli behind...this shit just boils my blood.
lets not let facts get in the way of "analysis"...
We know how good he can be, and we've seen how absolutely awful he can be, and how foolish he can sometimes be in throwing some of the passes he attempts.
Lets hope that we get the good and wise Eli this year.
Maybe he's shot. Maybe he's done. But if you assume that Eli reverts back to what he was doing his entire career he will be closer to the 25-27 TD guy and not the 18 TD guy from last year.
OR, maybe he meets in the middle with this new offense and is more of a 22 TD guy with 16 INTS. We shall see..
he also won a division in '05 and got a playoff berth in '06 (albeit as a .500 team).
Rosenthal is a fucktard.
Unfortunately I am not sure that can happen with the lack of talent at WR and TE not to mention a patchwork o-line. But I will keep hoping and praying.
Are sure you are not thinking of Ken Rosenthal?
Quote:
this is the same guy who used to write for rotoworld and would blatantly troll Yankee fans while always looking for excuses for his beloved Red Sox.
Are sure you are not thinking of Ken Rosenthal?
um, yeah. Pretty sure. Ken Rosenthal never wrote for rotoworld.
RG3
Foles
CK
Flacco
all decisively above eli?
No thanks.
Eli belongs in the middle of the league. There's no shot i'd take any of those guys I mentioned up top over him.
Flacco and Eli are basically guys that suffer the same faults, and every other QB listed above just plain sucks or is mediocre and has never improved his teammates.
has a lower completion % and is prone to all the same mistakes eli makes.
But how can anyone accuse Eli of being consistent in his time here?
I love the guy for what he has done for us, but please he does not raise the level of those around him. He does not spread the ball around, and he can not avoid pressure as all QB's with very few exceptions need to do to keep a drive going.
In 2010, Eli threw a pick on 4.6% of his passes while Brees threw a pick on 3.3% of his passes, which is why Eli gets shit and Brees doesn't.
AnyoneButPhilly : 9/3/2014 8:56 pm : link : reply
Hold last season and this preseason against Eli.
Why in the fuck would you hold PRESEASON against anyone? How many people even know what the team is trying to accomplish in preseason, let alone hold performances against proven starters.
These are the type of posts that should be used when somebody chimes in on the great football analysis here.
That is complete horseshit.
Eli could keep sliding like Donovan McNabb and many others, or revive like Elway, or do something in between. I tend to agree with those who say he isn't the main problem, or at least that there's no way to know whether he's the problem until a lot of other stuff gets fixed.
Very similar to Eli's 2013 and Favre is headed to Canton.
Very similar to Eli's 2013 and Favre is headed to Canton.
I've compared Eli to a poor man's Favre in terms of gunslinger mentality, etc. There have been plenty of QB's better than Eli who have had shit years in the middle of their careers that give me hope that Eli will be bounce back and be fine.
JOMO, my comparison is fairly narrow, limited to his risky style of play. Not caliber of player.
I truly believe they rooted against the Giants in SB 42 and 46 hoping Eli lost.
you guys are making silly comps about a guy who is generally mediocre (although it must be noted that he a) came up big twice on the biggest of stages b) has been very durable)...so while a)and b) elevate his legacy above mediocre, let's not kid ourselves and elevate him among the greatest of all time
He's consistently been a top 10-12 QB since 2006.
And this post from 2009 where the comparison was talked about right here on BBI, five years ago:
Eli Manning and John Elway - Parallel Beginnings
mikewaldwick : 11/25/2009 7:15 pm
Eli Manning and John Elway’s NFL careers began the exact same way. After 88 starts you’ll see their stats are very similar as well.
Even though, in my opinion, today’s QB, in general, has become more of a dink and dunk position (resulting in higher passer ratings), as we saw on Sunday, Eli’s style of down-the-field passing is similar to when Elway played.
What I found very interesting is that the Giants and Broncos were LAST PLACE teams the year before Eli and Elway were drafted. Two years later, after their first full season, both the Giants and Broncos were FIRST PLACE teams.
Two years ago this comparison may have been slightly insulting to John Elway fans but Eli is definitely closing the gap with his play over the last couple years.
Eli and Elway after 88 total starts (81 Regular Season starts and 7 playoff starts)
DRAFTED: Eli first overall/traded, Elway first overall/traded
RECORD YEAR BEFORE DRAFT: Giants 2003: 4-12 (last), Broncos 1982: 2-7 (last-strike season)
RECORD AFTER FIRST FULL SEASON 2005-Giants 11-5 (first), 1984-Broncos 13-3 (first)
SUPER BOWLS: Eli 1, Elway 0
TOTAL RECORD: Eli 52-36 .591, Elway 57-30-1 .655
REG SEASON RECORD: Eli 48- 33 .593, Elway 53-27-1 .663
PLAYOFF RECORD: Eli 4-3 .571, Elway 4-3 .571
STRENGTH OF SCHEDULE: Eli .535, Elway .518
AVG. RANK OF DEFENSES PLAYED AGAINST (YDS): Eli 15.1, Elway 17.6**
PASSER RATING: Eli 78.1, Elway 74.1
ATT: Eli 2,781, Elway 2,788
COMP: Eli 1,576, Elway 1,515
COMP PCT: Eli 56.7%, Elway 54.3%
PASSING YARDS: Eli 18,311, Elway 19,330
NET PASSING YARDS: Eli 17,296, Elway 17,981
YARDS/ATT: Eli 6.6, Elway 6.9
TD: Eli 124, Elway 111
INT: Eli 90, Elway 103
4th QTR/OT COMEBACKS: Eli 17, Elway 17
SACKS/YARDS: Eli 147/1,015, Elway 178/1,349
**Elways competitors ranked 15.4 in defense out of 28 teams which equates to 17.6 against 32 teams
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Was that title run (along with other, lesser hot streaks earlier in his career) a random aberration? Maybe. In any case, the longer his slump continues, the more of a fluke 2011 seems to have been, and the less likely he seems to repeat it. You can't completely dismiss Eli's highs, though. He was ridiculously good.
I meant that he was within the top 12, not necessarily the 10-12th best QB. I think most years he's been in the 6-8 range.
Are you that fickle that now he's back to being garbage?
he has a couple of great moments at optimal times, he's been durable, he's been a class act --> but he's far from an all time great QB
Do I think he can get to 10-12th best in the league again?
No. I think he's too careless with this ball, not just with his inaccuracy but with how often he fumbles and his inability to extend a play or pick up 10 yards every once in a while (like most QBs these days have in their arsenal).
You're expecting Jomo to actually not revision history (like most Elway narratives, putting him as an all time top five-ish QB, require) to suit his point.
While I'm not saying they're exactly the same quality or same skill sets by any means, when you look at how Elway's stats compare to his peers of his era (not to Eli directly) or actually remember how looked at by his own team as broken he was for a stretch, the general referencing of him in regards to Eli isn't anywhere near as ridiculous, in reality, as some keep trying to claim it is. If Elway's playing career existed in this era, he would get a lot of the same treatment/criticism Eli's gets, minus the LCD stuff about fire or shoulder shrugs.
Anyway, the point of the Elway precedent isn't that Eli Manning is as good as John Elway - although, by certain measures, he might be. The point is simply that their careers have followed similar arcs, and might continue to do so as Eli - like Elway before him - tries to shake out of a tenth-year slump while switching to a version of the WCO.
3 year average of around #20 + a downward trend. #20 sounds about right.
Lots of INT's, lots of 4th quarter comebacks, considered the top clutch QB's of their era among their peers.
Obviously their skill sets are different, but their career arc is very similar, except for the fact that Eli has already won his two Superbowls, something Elway didn't do until year 14 and 15.
Now if you want to mitigate it by saying "he's also mistake prone like Favre" or "he also had a poor 10th year like Elway" or "he's also Caucasian like those guys", that's fine. I get the point.
JOMO25 : 12:19 pm : link : reply
Hakeem, Shaq and Jabbar are referenced for Tyson Chandler as Elway, Brees and Favre have been for Eli....its so out of the realm of a reasonable comp that it is difficult to have a productive conversation about it
If Tyson Chandler had a few rings under his belt and was the main factor in getting them, there could be some valid comparisons. THAT is what people are missing when it comes to Eli.
If we look at the endgame as being championships, then Eli surpasses most of his peers in that area. At the very least, he should be above some of the petty criticisms leveled at him. Super Bowl wins made heroes out of many QB's who would otherwise have been unremarkable.
Bart Starr, Jim Plunkett, Doug Williams, and Dilfer come to mind as a few. A great example is also Joe Flacco. He's earned more cred for a single SB win than Eli has in two, and let's keep in mind he was MVP of both.
In terms of the ultimate goal in the game, Eli has reached the top twice. no matter how vehemently people want to excuse them away because of luck, helmet catches, "easy" drops by DB's on balls 3 feet over their heads, Eli has actually done what everyone else strives for. That doesn't make him above criticizing individual throws or mistakes, but it sure should elevate him from being lumped in as an ordinary QB. Joe Namath made a career off of a prediction and a flair for the spotlight while eli gets shit on by his team's fans with frightening regularity.
IMO, it doesn't make somebody a "realist" when they do this - it only makes them look like an ungrateful shithead. And one that appears to spend a lot of time diminishing achievements this franchise has seldom seen.
In fact, here is an article written in 2011 with some interesting comparisons of Elway to his peers and other all time greats:
Elway: 502 attempts, 286 completions, 57% completion, 3,565 yards, 21 touchdowns, 16 interceptions, a 79.9 quarterback rating and 10.3 wins.
Montana: 501 attempts, 317 completions, 63% completion, 3,772 yards, 25 touchdowns, 13 interceptions, a 92.3 quarterback rating and 11.4 wins.
Rick Stewart/Getty Images So in terms of who was the better regular season quarterback, the stats above show it's without a doubt Joe Montana. Montana was better in every way: His completion percentage was much higher, he averaged four more touchdowns and three fewer picks, had a way higher quarterback rating and had a higher winning percentage. You would have to be a fool to say Elway was better in the regular season.
Elway: 22 games, 651 attempts, 355 completions, 54.5% completion, 4,964 yards, 27 touchdowns, 21 interceptions, a 79.7 quarterback rating and a 14-8 record.
Montana: 23 games, 734 attempts, 460 completions, 62.7% completion, 5,772 yards, 45 touchdowns, 21 interceptions, a 95.6 quarterback rating and a 16-7 record.
Montana, who was clearly the better regular season quarterback, only improved his game when it came to the playoffs. And Elway, who's supposed to be this great winner and big-game quarterback, was virtually identical in both the regular season and in the playoffs.
Elway: five games, 152 attempts, 76 completions, 50% completion, 1,128 yards, three touchdowns, eight interceptions, a 59.3 quarterback rating and two Super Bowl victories.
Montana: four games, 122 attempts, 83 completions, 68% completion, 1,142 yards, 11 touchdowns, zero interceptions, a 127.8 quarterback rating and four Super Bowl victories.
I could not believe it when I calculated those stats. Aside from his last game, Elway wasn't just bad in the Super Bowl, he was god-awful. Montana was just as great as Elway was awful—he shined the brightest in the big game. Montana had more touchdown passes (five) in his last Super Bowl then Elway did in all five of his. Montana never threw a pick in the Super Bowl, while Elway threw at least one in every game. Montana's completion percentage in 18 percent higher and his quarterback rating more than doubles Elway's.
Out of those 10 guys Elway is the only one who was never named the first-team All-Pro quarterback. Elway and Marino are the only two of those 10 players without multiple MVP awards, and in 1987 when Elway won the award it should have been Jerry Rice's. Of the seven Super Bowl-era quarterbacks on my list, Elway easily has the worst completion percentage at 56.9 percent. That percentage is barely above the three non-Super Bowl-era quarterbacks (Baugh, Graham and Unitas, who played in the SB era but was past his prime), but the difference is anything above 50 percent was good back in the day. Elway, Unitas, and Baugh are the only three with quarterback ratings under 80, but Unitas and Baugh had very good quarterback ratings for their time, unlike Elway.
Since Brett Favre is mentioned in this thread, I'll point out that the author goes on to show how Brett Favre was also better than John Elway in a similar fashion.
Link - ( New Window )
They were viewed similarly. History has been kind to John Elway. Let's see how it plays out for Eli.
RG3
Foles
CK
Flacco
all decisively above eli?
No thanks.
Eli belongs in the middle of the league. There's no shot i'd take any of those guys I mentioned up top over him.
Flacco and Eli are basically guys that suffer the same faults, and every other QB listed above just plain sucks or is mediocre and has never improved his teammates.
Notice he didn't say "The RG3 of 2012 was the outlier of his career. We don't expect to see him get back to that level."
We'd have multiple threads talking about postseason disappointments and no rings in 10 years, and that we wish we had the success of the team that would have beaten us twice in 2007 and 2011.
Quote:
let's say
JOMO25 : 12:19 pm : link : reply
Hakeem, Shaq and Jabbar are referenced for Tyson Chandler as Elway, Brees and Favre have been for Eli....its so out of the realm of a reasonable comp that it is difficult to have a productive conversation about it
If Tyson Chandler had a few rings under his belt and was the main factor in getting them, there could be some valid comparisons. THAT is what people are missing when it comes to Eli.
If we look at the endgame as being championships, then Eli surpasses most of his peers in that area. At the very least, he should be above some of the petty criticisms leveled at him. Super Bowl wins made heroes out of many QB's who would otherwise have been unremarkable.
Bart Starr, Jim Plunkett, Doug Williams, and Dilfer come to mind as a few. A great example is also Joe Flacco. He's earned more cred for a single SB win than Eli has in two, and let's keep in mind he was MVP of both.
In terms of the ultimate goal in the game, Eli has reached the top twice. no matter how vehemently people want to excuse them away because of luck, helmet catches, "easy" drops by DB's on balls 3 feet over their heads, Eli has actually done what everyone else strives for. That doesn't make him above criticizing individual throws or mistakes, but it sure should elevate him from being lumped in as an ordinary QB. Joe Namath made a career off of a prediction and a flair for the spotlight while eli gets shit on by his team's fans with frightening regularity.
IMO, it doesn't make somebody a "realist" when they do this - it only makes them look like an ungrateful shithead. And one that appears to spend a lot of time diminishing achievements this franchise has seldom seen.
Actually, Bart Starr was a great QB..One of the best clutch QBs ever imv..
We'd have multiple threads talking about postseason disappointments and no rings in 10 years, and that we wish we had the success of the team that would have beaten us twice in 2007 and 2011.
They're saying that now on BBI
Eli's thrown more INT's that TD's once (twice if you count his rookie season).
Who is this all time quarterback from Day One everybody is remembering here?
"If he didn't have two rings...."
Well go fuck yourself - he does!
When you reach the pinnacle of the sport twice and it was at your hands where the success predominately laid, it should elevate you above being "average" or "mediocre" or any other arguments used in the guise of shitting on him.
You can't take away titles and the only time people try to do that are when they inexplicably want to tear somebody down.
The frequency of that happening on BBI absolutely baffles me, but it also gives insight on why i think so many people here are football morons.
I completely agree with this.
Of course, many on here thought I was saying Eli was as good or better than Elway lol.....
The fact is, they were trying to run Elway out of Denver back then. Had he won two SB's, he probably would be getting the pass Eli is sorta getting now.........
TOMMY MADDOX????
Eli should definitely be higher than #20, but not that much and not enough that we shouldn't be concerned.
Let's not make it seem like Elway ran the single wing here.
Whenever Elway played a full season, he often had the same or more pass attempts as Eli.
that's what matters, not "era's".
Forget comparing him to his peers, or Eli.
Just look at his first ten years statistically and tell me what you see.
Doesn't sound like too many want to immortalize him lately.
Elway 89-52, 63%
Eli: 2/2 100%
Elway: 0/3 0%
Elway 89-52, 63%
So Elway basically won four total more games than Eli over the same time period, but Eli is penalized because he played more?
If you want to think Eli is as good as Elway go right ahead. I like to think he's good too. But he's not 63% fucking good.
But thats very unlikely to happen, agree or disagree? And why?
His stats aren't impressive. Neither were Aikman's. And I don't think Eli's stats demonstrate the quality of player he is.
I can't tell what you're arguing here. Is it that Elway is wildly overrated, Eli is just as good as Elway, or that Elway's ascension in the back half of his career is an example of what Eli will do for us over the next 5-8 years?
That was an either/or question...
And that anybody labeling Elway an all time great while labeling Eli as having a mediocre career is not viewing the overall picture.
The burden of proof for Eli to be 'done' is enormously high. He'd have to be pretty fucking bad over the next two years for me to think it's time to move on from him. I think he bounces back.
Haha!
And that anybody labeling Elway an all time great while labeling Eli as having a mediocre career is not viewing the overall picture.
Elway had an MVP, which I think is a key differentiator. Based on this and Pro Bowls, etc., it seems like Elway was a top 5 QB according to consensus (relative to peers) - Eli's never been thought of that way.
It's not like the scales are heavily weighted one way or the other.
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