As much support as we've given Jerry Reese in the past, there is no denying that he has taken a Super Bowl caliber team and driven it straight into the ground. When you have a Super Bowl MVP QB in his prime any smart GM builds around him. Instead, our GM has allowed our offensive line to literally crumble into one of the most pathetic units in the national football league. All of our problems on offense start and end with the offensive line. You can argue there is little talent at our skill positions but in all honesty, there is no way to reasonably judge them b/c there is no time for them to get open. I truly believe that there is no pocket passer in the league that would have any success playing in this offense right now. Not Peyton, Not Brady, Not Rodgers, No Brees. And that's saying something.
He drafted Beatty for replace Diehl. Boothe was adequate, Baas was a FA on the Super Bowl team, he drafted Pugh last year, and Snee got injured. This year, he drafted Richburg,, brought in Schwartz and Weston. And, you are wrong about Peyton, Brees, BRady and Rodgers. Obviously they are better than Eli, but the reason they are elite and Eli is not is because Eli needs help. Peyton and the others I listed can do it on their own oftentimes. There is not an offensive line in football that Peyton and Rodgers could not work with, from the worst to the best, and still be very productive.
Completely disagree with you. Beatty was overpaid after one average season. Baas was overpaid as a FA signing and wasn't ever a good player (there was a reason the niners let him walk)...I'm pretty sure we had the worst ranked running game in the NFL his first yr as our starting center. Richburg was drafted as a Center but is playing guard while JD Walton hasn't played in the NFL in two years and played like it last night. Pugh was a reach in the first round when he was a second round talent but was a need pick as the best OL left on the board. And if he was counting on Snee this year than that's the worst move of all. Point is, just b/c you sign players at a position, doesn't mean you're doing a good job of addressing it.
On offense..... Yes the online restructure is a complete fail. I would have gone rds one and two on linemen this year as a start. But it does start long before this..... David Wilson a first round pick but no pass protection ability? R Randle NFL ready my ass.... Marvin Austin? put another 2 OL in those three spots years ago at least.......
And just to ad..... I don't see much difference in the offense. I thought the ball was suppose to come out fast...... Not seeing it and that was suppose to help
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are in rebuild mode. This is going to take a couple years (particularly the o-line). That said, I do think we're going to see major improvements over the course of the year.
It doesn't feel like rebuild mode, it feels like falling apart mode.
I hear you, bold. I think there is some overreaction to yesterday's loss but it's warranted given what's been happening since last year. At this point, we've been spoiled. One losing season in like, 10 years?
I think we're definitely in rebuild mode but this season isn't lost yet (although it could be if we don't turn things around quick). Our line looked good yesterday. Secondary will take time to gel. Same with the o-line. Our receivers scare me though. We've got nothing back there.
He drafted Beatty for replace Diehl. Boothe was adequate, Baas was a FA on the Super Bowl team, he drafted Pugh last year, and Snee got injured. This year, he drafted Richburg,, brought in Schwartz and Weston. And, you are wrong about Peyton, Brees, BRady and Rodgers. Obviously they are better than Eli, but the reason they are elite and Eli is not is because Eli needs help. Peyton and the others I listed can do it on their own oftentimes. There is not an offensive line in football that Peyton and Rodgers could not work with, from the worst to the best, and still be very productive.
It's hard to say if those players would have any success behind this line. None of them have ever had a line so atrocious that they are getting hit every other time they go back to pass.
What I don't understand with BBI, is all the draft picks listed had some favorable things to say about them in the draft reviews. Granted some were expected to take a year or 2 to develop.
So how is drafting 6 OL since 2010, as well as trying to supplement that with FAs ignoring the OL?
If you say he tried and missed, then maybe. What we don't know and it could also be TC fault is..Did TC stick with the Veterans too long (It has been said he relies heavily on them and doesn't like to start the younger players)?
Hakeem Nicks went from a dominant playmaker to a nicked up, likely quitter, who is off the team. Mario Manningham blew out his knee. Rueben Randle was drafted to be the next man up and defied universal expectations as NFL ready and is anything but ready. Odell Beckham hasn't seen the field.
David Wilson had a career ending injury in the year he was supposed to get his shot after having some fumbling issues.
Kenny Phillips, Terrell Thomas were both playmaking hawks who blew out their knees.
Jason Pierre Paul has dealt with injuries that took him from a force to being just another guy.
This is where Reese invested a lot of his big moves and he has been ravaged by misfortune.
Instead, all of those investments have become problems for the Giants, and that only aggravates the situation when it comes to places that he had to defer on making a priority.
Reese isn't blameless, but the complete lack of talent on the team is not entirely his fault.
You don't sign all those DB's, linebackers if you're in rebuilding mode. Not to mention, the QB is getting old.
ers)?
Can you name the players on the OL Reese passed on? You appear to be giving credit despite players like Osemele and Cannon doing well while these awful players are supposedly developing.
I don't agree it's about team speed. DRC, Rolle, Prince, Kiwanuka, J Williams, Cruz, OBJ all have above average speed for their positions. There are way bigger problems with this team than speed IMO.
What I don't understand with BBI, is all the draft picks listed had some favorable things to say about them in the draft reviews. Granted some were expected to take a year or 2 to develop.
So how is drafting 6 OL since 2010, as well as trying to supplement that with FAs ignoring the OL?
If you say he tried and missed, then maybe. What we don't know and it could also be TC fault is..Did TC stick with the Veterans too long (It has been said he relies heavily on them and doesn't like to start the younger players)?
Gotta disagree here cause any guys drafted after round 3 are supposed to be developmental.... None of those OL picks have turned out to be anything special or appear to be improving. Mean while look at picks from 2010 that are from other different positions that just turned out to be busts or injuries.
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are in rebuild mode. This is going to take a couple years (particularly the o-line). That said, I do think we're going to see major improvements over the course of the year.
You don't sign all those DB's, linebackers if you're in rebuilding mode. Not to mention, the QB is getting old.
Yeah, that's my criticism of this offseason. Bringing in new OL made sense because it patches a huge weakness that was preventing the rest of the offense from functioning well. And the Thurmond acquisition made sense purely from a value perspective.
But throwing serious money at Beason with his injury history and DRC with his history of shaky effort-levels didn't jive with the present state of this team. (Bringing in a 28-year-old starting RB also makes little sense in this situation, but Jennings came cheaply enough to make me wonder if the RB position has over-corrected into "undervalued" territory in the current NFL.)
It's clear that the Giants consider their "window" open for as long as Eli is the QB of this team. On the one hand, it's hard to argue with that, as they managed to win 2 championships with this QB in years when the personnel around him wasn't exactly the best. On the other hand, the Giants brass would have to be crazy-optimistic to look at the 2014 Giants personnel and conclude that they had potential to put out anything close to the non-QB strengths that the 2007 (pass rush) and 2011 (receiver corps) teams had.
What I don't understand with BBI, is all the draft picks listed had some favorable things to say about them in the draft reviews. Granted some were expected to take a year or 2 to develop.
So how is drafting 6 OL since 2010, as well as trying to supplement that with FAs ignoring the OL?
If you say he tried and missed, then maybe. What we don't know and it could also be TC fault is..Did TC stick with the Veterans too long (It has been said he relies heavily on them and doesn't like to start the younger players)?
It depends on how you define "neglect." I define it to include "swinging and missing," not just not drafting OL. Reese has drafted and brought in as FA a lot of OL. But most of them stink. To your list I would add Petrus. Beatty, Pugh, Richburg and Boothe are the only ones who were or are productive. And Beatty looks awful right now. Schwartz is an unknown.
As far as who he could have drafted: Cordy Glenn over Wilson, Osemele with a trade down if he didn't want Glenn, Max Unger over Sintim.
Reese isn't ten years old. He's not in fifth grade. He doesn't get a trophy for participation. Don't tell me how hard he's "tried." It may take effort and talent to produce results, but in the real world, trying hard without producing doesn't insulate you from criticism.
My guess is this is why TC stuck with aging veterans. The replacements Reese gave him were worse. And that is frankly a damning indictment of Reese given how bad Diehl, Snee, and Baas were the last few years.
If we used all 2nd and 3rd round picks in those places, who do we lose out on, some of those picks are playing and some failed... Ultimately it is a crap shoot.
As an example, I think everyone agrees Austin was a mistake...even at the time I didn't like it. However the Giants felt they had needs in a number of places and that he was going to be great.
I also said that we knew they were a couple years out till they were ready...I think in 2010,2011 The Giants felt the O-line was ok and if that those guys would be ready by 2012-2013, and there would be a slow migration to a new line then we'd gel slowly and be good for a number of more years...Unfortunately it looks like we whiffed. Beatty had a strong year, they rewarded him and he stunk..I was pretty happy how he looked in 2012...no so much in 2013 -- we overpaid and it went bad for us..
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are in rebuild mode. This is going to take a couple years (particularly the o-line). That said, I do think we're going to see major improvements over the course of the year.
You don't sign all those DB's, linebackers if you're in rebuilding mode. Not to mention, the QB is getting old.
Fair point. But DRC is going to be here for a while and I think Prince too. So will Beason. These guys aren't here for a short stay but to be part of the next nucleus.
Every successful organization faces a point where they stop evaluating their team objectively and the team deteriorates faster than they can recognize it and respond. I feel we're at that point. Last year was the wake-up call, but ownership chose to ignore it and hope for the best. Well, hoping isn't a strategy. I just pray they do a full house-cleaning, and don't keep Reese around, because he's as much a part of the problem as anyone. Very discouraging.
What I believe has happened is the organization made personnel decision based reasonable expectations. Players that they should have gotten a few more years out of (Snee, Baas) fell off cliffs. Younger skill players like Wilson, Nicks are gone. And some players have simply not worked out.
Shit happens and has happened to this team. Pronouncing the Oline as a failure at this time is stupid. An oline plays as a group and they should be given the opportunity to come together before pronouncing it as a complete failure.
We really shouldn't be all that surprised after last year's sh*t show that this team can't be rebuilt in one year. This is year 1 of at least a 2 year rebuilding process. Whether Eli can stay healthy and skilled enough to be the leader of that process, or whether a new QB (Nassib or someone else) will be that leader, only time will tell.
Mara needs to decide if Reese and Coughlin should be given another chance after this year, or "clean house" and start over with new front office and coaching personnel.
Does this OL with with a 1st, 3 2nds, 2 3rds and 2 4ths get time or not
This team does not win a SB in 2011 without Their non OL high picks
Why not give it some time to settle and meet with GM and coaches first. Why not ask your two time Super Bowl winning coach what parts he believes he needs improved to get back to where they were? Maybe they would still end up coming to the conclusion to scrape the offense and start over, or just maybe they would have concentrated on other things as the best path to take. For that matter I would think Mara would have wanted the opinion of his franchise QB before doing anything drastic with his team.
It is still early and it very well might work out that this offense is the best thing for Eli and the team and I will generally stay positive. But there is something in my gut that doesn't feel right with McAdoo and how it relates to Eli. I always believe the best coaches will coach based on their players strengths and weaknesses. Placing them in the positron to best succeed by utilizing their strengths and masking their weaknesses. Admittedly I may be completely wrong about this, but I just have this feeling that McAdoo has long had his ideas to try if and when he got his shot and he is doing exactly what he always wanted and it hasn't changed much after spending time analyzing Eli and the current roster.
It's like everybody here thinks he does what he wants, even though others in management may disagree.
This is a SHARED collapse, but since Reese is the point man, he's getting all the blame.
It's like everybody here thinks he does what he wants, even though others in management may disagree.
This is a SHARED collapse, but since Reese is the point man, he's getting all the blame.
I wouldn't say it's a on Reese but his philosophy sucks. For his first 6 years he focused on 3 position groups heavily in the early rounds and thorough misses or bad luck w injury has virtually nothing to show for it. Follow that upnw bad FA signing and yeah. He's a huge part of the problem. Ross and the scouts work for him. Who decided Sintim was a better
Pick than Max Unger? Wilson over Cordy Glenn etc.
Sadly the who staff will get fired but it starts w Reese.
The coaching staff has burned through it's equity too. Plenty of blame to go around when you have looked this bad for a few years but Reese needed to go at the end of last year.
Reese and Ross have had a combination of shit luck and some bad drafting. The sheer number of guys who were injured and saw premature ends to their careers is frightening. Beyond the football injuries you have a 3rd rounder in a car accident and a first rounder with a congenital spine disease. Injuries aside, we've done a lot of drafting with little to show for it in key areas (as strong as we are at drafting DL for the most part, we seem weak at drafting OL).
We've extended veterans who were over the hill and are still paying the piper. Our FA acquisitions leave a bit to be desired (stretches across Gettleman and his successor).
On the coaching front - even if all these guys were mediocre, you'd figure the coaching staff would at least be able to coach up 1-2 of them. Instead, we get guys who were raved about by scouts (outsiders, not ours) at draft time, and they turn up here and do squat. OL has been concerning to me for some time - while the guys who've left here haven't gone on to rule the world, Guy Whimper did a serviceable job elsewhere, and Matt McCants seemed to do OK for the Raiders last season (although a backup this year). We had guys who were way past their prime starting games, and it's hard to tell whether that was blind loyalty or the dearth of talent behind them, but the fact that we couldn't take one of these guys and turn them into a halfway decent starter (or even above average backup) is damning, and starts to defy the law of averages.
On specials, we stink. We've stunk for some time, going back to the championship run. I've heard a lot of excuses, but how long can you continue to blame the players when so many have come and gone, but the coach remains the same?
Then you get to Eli - whom I hold a great deal of respect for, and he's one of my favorite all-time Giants. But at this point, he's seriously overpaid. And that cap number is holding back the team from putting more talent around him, which he's going to need if he's going to be anything more than your average immobile QB running for his life. Everyone here is either part of the problem or part of the solution, and right now Eli stands firmly in both camps. I do believe he could have a career resurgence, but he's not the guy to pick up everyone around him anymore. He's a solid top 3rd of the league QB, but he needs so much support in terms of OL due to his immobility that you can't win with him being paid as one of the top QBs in the game. It's a catch-22, and I'm afraid it's hurting us right now. As much as it pains me to say it, I think it's time that Eli either comes to that realization, or moves on to a team that's got the requisite talent that can still fit him under the cap to see if he can wring another championship out of his arm.
Fewell didn't look like he knew how to play with his new toys last night. Perennial complaints about how his defenses had to change because he didn't have the horses in the backfield were met with some high profile signings, and it didn't appear that he realizes that he's got those guys now. While the D was the least of our problems last night, it was still troubling to see how often we went into a soft zone allowing the Lions to complete at will when we were down a couple of scores and desperately needed a stop.
Last but not least, it seems like the team has finally tuned TC out. I don't think it's a matter of energy, I think that's ageist and does TC a disservice. But any leader will eventually wear out his welcome, and it seems like after 10 years TC has finally reached that point. Like Eli I have a tremendous amount of respect for TC and the run he gave us, and would wish him luck with anything he decides to try after he leaves. Barring a miraculous turnaround (which is very possible, it's only game one), if this continues I'm afraid it's time to move on.
It is only the first game, and we have a lot of season left, but this has been the trend for almost 2 years now, and it doesn't seem to be improving.
I am sure part of the plan was ODB to replace Nicks and all would be ok. So far that plan is failing....so far.
And Reese's OL quick fix this off-season isn't going to work either.
But it is also true that the problems go much deeper than that.
Then you get to Eli - whom I hold a great deal of respect for, and he's one of my favorite all-time Giants. But at this point, he's seriously overpaid. And that cap number is holding back the team from putting more talent around him, which he's going to need if he's going to be anything more than your average immobile QB running for his life. Everyone here is either part of the problem or part of the solution, and right now Eli stands firmly in both camps. I do believe he could have a career resurgence, but he's not the guy to pick up everyone around him anymore. He's a solid top 3rd of the league QB, but he needs so much support in terms of OL due to his immobility that you can't win with him being paid as one of the top QBs in the game.
The Giants are 3M under the cap right now, money they didn't spend yet and probably won't, even after signing the mighty group of Schwartz/Walton/Jerry/Brown to bolster the OL, having Beatty with a $7.4M cap hit, and spending a R2 pick on Richburg. They spent a painful amount of money on the suck that was Beatty/Baas/Snee/Diehl last season, along with spending a first round pick on Pugh (they also have decent dead money tied up in Snee and Baas this season).
His contract really hasn't stopped them from paying for anyone along or investing in the OL. It's one of the greatest myths constantly perpetuated here these days that the Giants haven't invested in that area. The team has just done a really awful job of doing the investing.
I certainly blame the he and Ross the most, because the talent (especially on offense) is horrendously low and has been crashing downward for seasons now, but from Coughlin to Fewell to Eli, there's still blame to go around and be divided.
My biggest problem continues to be that Reese/Ross are the ones who are going to escape blame from the team itself and keep their jobs while Coughlin and Eli get the axe. If they latter two have to fall on the sword, the guys who pretty much pushed them into that fall shouldn't still be employed and in charge of selecting the next HC/QB era either. They should all be gone after the season if that's what needs to happen, should things spiral out.
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As far as who he could have drafted: Cordy Glenn over Wilson, Osemele with a trade down if he didn't want Glenn, Max Unger over Sintim.
Maybe the single-worst draft decision of his tenure - on par with Accorsi's Dayne over Faneca in terms of a bust that everyone saw coming instead of a top-tier offensive lineman for years to come.
"Yes" you can replace that FA but it also costs draft picks to do it. Keep some of the FAs and draft at other positions.
John: It's a matter of cap dollars. We would have kept Coefield and Linval if we had the coin. Eli makes a fortune.
Wrong. Peyton & Brady both were much less effective in losing Superbowls when their Olines were dominated by a superior Dline.
Plus, they've never played with SHIT Olines. Never.
Hakeem Nicks went from a dominant playmaker to a nicked up, likely quitter, who is off the team. Mario Manningham blew out his knee. Rueben Randle was drafted to be the next man up and defied universal expectations as NFL ready and is anything but ready. Odell Beckham hasn't seen the field.
David Wilson had a career ending injury in the year he was supposed to get his shot after having some fumbling issues.
Kenny Phillips, Terrell Thomas were both playmaking hawks who blew out their knees.
Jason Pierre Paul has dealt with injuries that took him from a force to being just another guy.
This is where Reese invested a lot of his big moves and he has been ravaged by misfortune.
Instead, all of those investments have become problems for the Giants, and that only aggravates the situation when it comes to places that he had to defer on making a priority.
Reese isn't blameless, but the complete lack of talent on the team is not entirely his fault.
Excellent post, Paul. Add the Will Hill drug problem to that list.
Randle
Hosley
Robinson
Mosley
McCants
Kuhn
Hakeem Nicks went from a dominant playmaker to a nicked up, likely quitter, who is off the team. Mario Manningham blew out his knee. Rueben Randle was drafted to be the next man up and defied universal expectations as NFL ready and is anything but ready. Odell Beckham hasn't seen the field.
David Wilson had a career ending injury in the year he was supposed to get his shot after having some fumbling issues.
Kenny Phillips, Terrell Thomas were both playmaking hawks who blew out their knees.
Jason Pierre Paul has dealt with injuries that took him from a force to being just another guy.
This is where Reese invested a lot of his big moves and he has been ravaged by misfortune.
Instead, all of those investments have become problems for the Giants, and that only aggravates the situation when it comes to places that he had to defer on making a priority.
Reese isn't blameless, but the complete lack of talent on the team is not entirely his fault.
It's why I give him a bigger pass than most do. I'd add Will Hill, Jonathan Goff, Jake Ballard, and Kenny Phillips (none of whom are 30 years-old yet) to that list. These guys are at bare minimum solid contributors who the Giants only got 1 season out of for one reason or another. Maybe if 26 year-old (healthy) Nicks was still on the team, they draft a OL instead of a WR.