The current state of the Giants is all on Jerry Reese

The buck stops at the GMs office.

But it's the NFL. The factors outside your control often overwhelm those that you can influence. You can do nearly everything right and still end up with a pretty lousy team. So you judge your management, coaching, and scouting on process, not necessarily results. And fans don't really have a window to see into the process that is going on.

Many of us here were calling out OL issues since 2010. We r paying now, it's amazing how many players the gigiants sign that are either mid tier, or injury prone. Bad drafts can kill the final years of our qb.

No question about it.

we had one of the best offensive lines in football and instead of preparing for replacements as they aged, we let the oline crumble into nothing. When you have a pocket passer like Eli, the #1 way to improve your team is to have a strong offensive line our management failed miserably in this area.

This D has been horrific year after year the past 4 save for some backup QB....our 3rd down numbers are bottom 10 in the league on average past 4 years. Full of veteranz and successful players elsewhere, i am sorry coaching staff and TC.

It's on the entire team and organization. I'm getting tired of seeing everyone point to Reese as if Coughlin and the rest of the coaching staff (and front office) have no impact what so ever on who plays on this team and how they play.

No, this o-line mess is on Jerry and his staff. He's ignored the position in the draft assuming he could recreate his FA success of the past. It blew up in his face.

are in rebuild mode. This is going to take a couple years (particularly the o-line). That said, I do think we're going to see major improvements over the course of the year.

In comment 11850953 ImaGiant86 said:

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It's on the entire team and organization. I'm getting tired of seeing everyone point to Reese as if Coughlin and the rest of the coaching staff (and front office) have no impact what so ever on who plays on this team and how they play.

Do you think another coaching staff would have success with this personnel? If you do then I understand your comment. I personally don't think any staff would have a chance.

to let Giant FAs walk. Sure we draft to replace but how many times are they going to allow yet another DT FA walk, draft to replace and instead of keeping the FA and drafting at another place of need.

"Yes" you can replace that FA but it also costs draft picks to do it. Keep some of the FAs and draft at other positions.

is the question. Last nights line had a 1st round pick and two second round picks starting. Those picks are supposed to be the core of your team. I get there are going to be communication issues until they get used to playing together, but these guys were losing their 1 on 1 battles. That is troubling.

not drawing any final conclusions after one game, but there are troubling signs, as there were during the preseason, that the OL problems were not fixed during the offseason. It was especially important to have a stable OL given that Eli is immobile, and is even more immobile at this point in his career. Instead, he is playing behind an OL that would probably get any QB killed. That doesn't excuse Eli's bad play, but it's exacerbated by the rotten OL. It was on Reese to fix that problem. He's basically had two years to do so. It looks like he may have failed.

In comment 11850961 AcidTest said:

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not drawing any final conclusions after one game, but there are troubling signs, as there were during the preseason, that the OL problems were not fixed during the offseason. It was especially important to have a stable OL given that Eli is immobile, and is even more immobile at this point in his career. Instead, he is playing behind an OL that would probably get any QB killed. That doesn't excuse Eli's bad play, but it's exacerbated by the rotten OL. It was on Reese to fix that problem. He's basically had two years to do so. It looks like he may have failed.

But it's not one game. The oline has been deteriorating for years.

In comment 11850955 2ndroundKO said:

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are in rebuild mode. This is going to take a couple years (particularly the o-line). That said, I do think we're going to see major improvements over the course of the year.

It doesn't feel like rebuild mode, it feels like falling apart mode.

Reese has not ignored the offensive line. Reese has tried, but just failed to replicate the success we had with the Diehl Seubert, Ohara, Snee, Mck line. It happens in this business, you are wrong. But it is not like he let his valuable commodity, Eli, with no help because of poor planning, it was because of poor selection.

He drafted Beatty for replace Diehl. Boothe was adequate, Baas was a FA on the Super Bowl team, he drafted Pugh last year, and Snee got injured. This year, he drafted Richburg,, brought in Schwartz and Weston. And, you are wrong about Peyton, Brees, BRady and Rodgers. Obviously they are better than Eli, but the reason they are elite and Eli is not is because Eli needs help. Peyton and the others I listed can do it on their own oftentimes. There is not an offensive line in football that Peyton and Rodgers could not work with, from the worst to the best, and still be very productive.

There's equal blame to go all around. Reese and Ross deserve a heaping share.

Coughlin, Fewell, Eli deserve enough for themselves.

The most damning evidence is not just the starting unit but the depth. Okay, so we scrap together a serviceable line - is there anything behind the line to overcome inevitable injuries?

Anyway, I knew this was coming so it's hard to be overly upset but I'm sure we were all hoping for a big surprise last night & instead it was actually worse than expected. lol. Let's hope they find the right combo on the o-line soon.

I'm confused by your logic. Are you giving Reese a pass b/c he tried to fix the line by over-paying average players? Indeed, he went back to the old formula but it blew up in his face. It's his fault - success and failure is his. There's no A for effort here.

start Nassib..let's gut this bitch and stock up on draft picks.. [/sarcasm off]

In comment 11850979 Essex said:

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Reese has not ignored the offensive line. Reese has tried, but just failed to replicate the success we had with the Diehl Seubert, Ohara, Snee, Mck line. It happens in this business, you are wrong. But it is not like he let his valuable commodity, Eli, with no help because of poor planning, it was because of poor selection. He drafted Beatty for replace Diehl. Boothe was adequate, Baas was a FA on the Super Bowl team, he drafted Pugh last year, and Snee got injured. This year, he drafted Richburg,, brought in Schwartz and Weston. And, you are wrong about Peyton, Brees, BRady and Rodgers. Obviously they are better than Eli, but the reason they are elite and Eli is not is because Eli needs help. Peyton and the others I listed can do it on their own oftentimes. There is not an offensive line in football that Peyton and Rodgers could not work with, from the worst to the best, and still be very productive.

Completely disagree with you. Beatty was overpaid after one average season. Baas was overpaid as a FA signing and wasn't ever a good player (there was a reason the niners let him walk)...I'm pretty sure we had the worst ranked running game in the NFL his first yr as our starting center. Richburg was drafted as a Center but is playing guard while JD Walton hasn't played in the NFL in two years and played like it last night. Pugh was a reach in the first round when he was a second round talent but was a need pick as the best OL left on the board. And if he was counting on Snee this year than that's the worst move of all. Point is, just b/c you sign players at a position, doesn't mean you're doing a good job of addressing it.

what irks me is that the Star Ledger ROUTINELY posts stories about how Reese is revered around the league as one of the best GM's in all of football. To me - looking at the product on the field this notion is patently absurd.

Right now could be successful.... There is enough talent but I question game planning and our defensive coordinator lets see some man to man and do something other then rush 4 with a straight rush... Again we all see that in the the threads.

On offense..... Yes the online restructure is a complete fail. I would have gone rds one and two on linemen this year as a start. But it does start long before this..... David Wilson a first round pick but no pass protection ability? R Randle NFL ready my ass.... Marvin Austin? put another 2 OL in those three spots years ago at least.......

And just to ad..... I don't see much difference in the offense. I thought the ball was suppose to come out fast...... Not seeing it and that was suppose to help

In comment 11850965 Bold Ruler said:

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In comment 11850955 2ndroundKO said: Quote: are in rebuild mode. This is going to take a couple years (particularly the o-line). That said, I do think we're going to see major improvements over the course of the year. It doesn't feel like rebuild mode, it feels like falling apart mode.

I hear you, bold. I think there is some overreaction to yesterday's loss but it's warranted given what's been happening since last year. At this point, we've been spoiled. One losing season in like, 10 years?

I think we're definitely in rebuild mode but this season isn't lost yet (although it could be if we don't turn things around quick). Our line looked good yesterday. Secondary will take time to gel. Same with the o-line. Our receivers scare me though. We've got nothing back there.

In comment 11850979 Essex said:

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Reese has not ignored the offensive line. Reese has tried, but just failed to replicate the success we had with the Diehl Seubert, Ohara, Snee, Mck line. It happens in this business, you are wrong. But it is not like he let his valuable commodity, Eli, with no help because of poor planning, it was because of poor selection. He drafted Beatty for replace Diehl. Boothe was adequate, Baas was a FA on the Super Bowl team, he drafted Pugh last year, and Snee got injured. This year, he drafted Richburg,, brought in Schwartz and Weston. And, you are wrong about Peyton, Brees, BRady and Rodgers. Obviously they are better than Eli, but the reason they are elite and Eli is not is because Eli needs help. Peyton and the others I listed can do it on their own oftentimes. There is not an offensive line in football that Peyton and Rodgers could not work with, from the worst to the best, and still be very productive.

It's hard to say if those players would have any success behind this line. None of them have ever had a line so atrocious that they are getting hit every other time they go back to pass.

Drafted Herman, Mccants, Brewer, Mosley, Pugh, Richburg, and brought in a number of Free agents (Baas, Boothe, Walton, Schwartz to name a few). A few good or high upside guys this year.

What I don't understand with BBI, is all the draft picks listed had some favorable things to say about them in the draft reviews. Granted some were expected to take a year or 2 to develop.

So how is drafting 6 OL since 2010, as well as trying to supplement that with FAs ignoring the OL?

If you say he tried and missed, then maybe. What we don't know and it could also be TC fault is..Did TC stick with the Veterans too long (It has been said he relies heavily on them and doesn't like to start the younger players)?

seemed to have lost all their playmakers to injuries in some form or another.

Hakeem Nicks went from a dominant playmaker to a nicked up, likely quitter, who is off the team. Mario Manningham blew out his knee. Rueben Randle was drafted to be the next man up and defied universal expectations as NFL ready and is anything but ready. Odell Beckham hasn't seen the field.

David Wilson had a career ending injury in the year he was supposed to get his shot after having some fumbling issues.

Kenny Phillips, Terrell Thomas were both playmaking hawks who blew out their knees.

Jason Pierre Paul has dealt with injuries that took him from a force to being just another guy.

This is where Reese invested a lot of his big moves and he has been ravaged by misfortune.

Instead, all of those investments have become problems for the Giants, and that only aggravates the situation when it comes to places that he had to defer on making a priority.

Reese isn't blameless, but the complete lack of talent on the team is not entirely his fault.

In comment 11850955 2ndroundKO said:

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are in rebuild mode. This is going to take a couple years (particularly the o-line). That said, I do think we're going to see major improvements over the course of the year.

You don't sign all those DB's, linebackers if you're in rebuilding mode. Not to mention, the QB is getting old.

Who on the current roster has above average speed at his position? Maybe JPP? That's about it. LB's are slow. DB's are slow. RB's are slow. WR's are slow. OL are slow. QB is slow. Can't win in this league (especially indoors on turf) without team speed.

In comment 11851041 cjd2404 said:

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Drafted Herman, Mccants, Brewer, Mosley, Pugh, Richburg, and brought in a number of Free agents (Baas, Boothe, Walton, Schwartz to name a few). A few good or high upside guys this year. ers)?

Can you name the players on the OL Reese passed on? You appear to be giving credit despite players like Osemele and Cannon doing well while these awful players are supposedly developing.

In comment 11851054 PSIMMS 22-25-268 said:

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Who on the current roster has above average speed at his position? Maybe JPP? That's about it. LB's are slow. DB's are slow. RB's are slow. WR's are slow. OL are slow. QB is slow. Can't win in this league (especially indoors on turf) without team speed.

I don't agree it's about team speed. DRC, Rolle, Prince, Kiwanuka, J Williams, Cruz, OBJ all have above average speed for their positions. There are way bigger problems with this team than speed IMO.

I've been a harsh critic of Reese for some time (particularly his inability to address the OL, an ongoing issue since 2010) - but it is extremely challenging building a roster post-Super Bowl. I always thought this was a 2-3 rebuild/transition/whatever you want to call it. We may have a bad year, but we can turn it around relatively quickly.

I like it.

In comment 11851041 cjd2404 said:

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Drafted Herman, Mccants, Brewer, Mosley, Pugh, Richburg, and brought in a number of Free agents (Baas, Boothe, Walton, Schwartz to name a few). A few good or high upside guys this year. What I don't understand with BBI, is all the draft picks listed had some favorable things to say about them in the draft reviews. Granted some were expected to take a year or 2 to develop. So how is drafting 6 OL since 2010, as well as trying to supplement that with FAs ignoring the OL? If you say he tried and missed, then maybe. What we don't know and it could also be TC fault is..Did TC stick with the Veterans too long (It has been said he relies heavily on them and doesn't like to start the younger players)?

Gotta disagree here cause any guys drafted after round 3 are supposed to be developmental.... None of those OL picks have turned out to be anything special or appear to be improving. Mean while look at picks from 2010 that are from other different positions that just turned out to be busts or injuries.

I want Mrs. Mara to yell at him.

In comment 11851045 Giants2012 said:

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In comment 11850955 2ndroundKO said: Quote: are in rebuild mode. This is going to take a couple years (particularly the o-line). That said, I do think we're going to see major improvements over the course of the year. You don't sign all those DB's, linebackers if you're in rebuilding mode. Not to mention, the QB is getting old.

Yeah, that's my criticism of this offseason. Bringing in new OL made sense because it patches a huge weakness that was preventing the rest of the offense from functioning well. And the Thurmond acquisition made sense purely from a value perspective.

But throwing serious money at Beason with his injury history and DRC with his history of shaky effort-levels didn't jive with the present state of this team. (Bringing in a 28-year-old starting RB also makes little sense in this situation, but Jennings came cheaply enough to make me wonder if the RB position has over-corrected into "undervalued" territory in the current NFL.)

It's clear that the Giants consider their "window" open for as long as Eli is the QB of this team. On the one hand, it's hard to argue with that, as they managed to win 2 championships with this QB in years when the personnel around him wasn't exactly the best. On the other hand, the Giants brass would have to be crazy-optimistic to look at the 2014 Giants personnel and conclude that they had potential to put out anything close to the non-QB strengths that the 2007 (pass rush) and 2011 (receiver corps) teams had.

both DL and OL. Any OB and RB will have success if the OL can block and protect. Reese has failed to draft guys with exception of Pugh. The Giants should have restarted after last year with new coaching,GM. To late for this year.

In comment 11851041 cjd2404 said:

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Drafted Herman, Mccants, Brewer, Mosley, Pugh, Richburg, and brought in a number of Free agents (Baas, Boothe, Walton, Schwartz to name a few). A few good or high upside guys this year. What I don't understand with BBI, is all the draft picks listed had some favorable things to say about them in the draft reviews. Granted some were expected to take a year or 2 to develop. So how is drafting 6 OL since 2010, as well as trying to supplement that with FAs ignoring the OL? If you say he tried and missed, then maybe. What we don't know and it could also be TC fault is..Did TC stick with the Veterans too long (It has been said he relies heavily on them and doesn't like to start the younger players)?

It depends on how you define "neglect." I define it to include "swinging and missing," not just not drafting OL. Reese has drafted and brought in as FA a lot of OL. But most of them stink. To your list I would add Petrus. Beatty, Pugh, Richburg and Boothe are the only ones who were or are productive. And Beatty looks awful right now. Schwartz is an unknown.

As far as who he could have drafted: Cordy Glenn over Wilson, Osemele with a trade down if he didn't want Glenn, Max Unger over Sintim.

Reese isn't ten years old. He's not in fifth grade. He doesn't get a trophy for participation. Don't tell me how hard he's "tried." It may take effort and talent to produce results, but in the real world, trying hard without producing doesn't insulate you from criticism.

My guess is this is why TC stuck with aging veterans. The replacements Reese gave him were worse. And that is frankly a damning indictment of Reese given how bad Diehl, Snee, and Baas were the last few years.

why we would go into rebuilding mode with a 34 year old, 2 time super bowl MVP qb.

There may have been any number of players picked ahead of the guys (or even after who turned out better). Which is why I said if you want to say he tried and missed...Which is really more how I feel.

If we used all 2nd and 3rd round picks in those places, who do we lose out on, some of those picks are playing and some failed... Ultimately it is a crap shoot.
As an example, I think everyone agrees Austin was a mistake...even at the time I didn't like it. However the Giants felt they had needs in a number of places and that he was going to be great.

I also said that we knew they were a couple years out till they were ready...I think in 2010,2011 The Giants felt the O-line was ok and if that those guys would be ready by 2012-2013, and there would be a slow migration to a new line then we'd gel slowly and be good for a number of more years...Unfortunately it looks like we whiffed. Beatty had a strong year, they rewarded him and he stunk..I was pretty happy how he looked in 2012...no so much in 2013 -- we overpaid and it went bad for us..

In comment 11851045 Giants2012 said:

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In comment 11850955 2ndroundKO said: Quote: are in rebuild mode. This is going to take a couple years (particularly the o-line). That said, I do think we're going to see major improvements over the course of the year. You don't sign all those DB's, linebackers if you're in rebuilding mode. Not to mention, the QB is getting old.

Fair point. But DRC is going to be here for a while and I think Prince too. So will Beason. These guys aren't here for a short stay but to be part of the next nucleus.

Last night's game looked like Week 17 of the 2013 season. The offense was inept, the line was a sieve (except for Richburg), and the defense was rocked for early TD's with a poorly-conceived gameplan.

Every successful organization faces a point where they stop evaluating their team objectively and the team deteriorates faster than they can recognize it and respond. I feel we're at that point. Last year was the wake-up call, but ownership chose to ignore it and hope for the best. Well, hoping isn't a strategy. I just pray they do a full house-cleaning, and don't keep Reese around, because he's as much a part of the problem as anyone. Very discouraging.

This organization made decisions as GROUP. This blaming Jerry Reese for all the ills of this team is CRAP.

What I believe has happened is the organization made personnel decision based reasonable expectations. Players that they should have gotten a few more years out of (Snee, Baas) fell off cliffs. Younger skill players like Wilson, Nicks are gone. And some players have simply not worked out.

Shit happens and has happened to this team. Pronouncing the Oline as a failure at this time is stupid. An oline plays as a group and they should be given the opportunity to come together before pronouncing it as a complete failure.

I do not believe you draft someone early (i.e. rounds 1-3) that you plan on developing for the future. I believe those picks need to be able to compete for a starting spot IMMEDIATELY. Thus drafting Will Beatty as the eventual replacement for David Diehl is a wasted 2nd round pick. He only should be picked there if they thought he would be able to beat out someone else on the O-Line that season. Given the way free agency works in the current NFL, you cannot use high draft picks for developmental purposes.

In 2012, he gambled he could do a "quick fix" (rather then rebuild immediately) and put in a few BandAids in an attempt to do another Super Bowl run rather than recognize the Giants got hot at the right time, won another SB with team without top notch talent. He gambled and lost.

We really shouldn't be all that surprised after last year's sh*t show that this team can't be rebuilt in one year. This is year 1 of at least a 2 year rebuilding process. Whether Eli can stay healthy and skilled enough to be the leader of that process, or whether a new QB (Nassib or someone else) will be that leader, only time will tell.

Mara needs to decide if Reese and Coughlin should be given another chance after this year, or "clean house" and start over with new front office and coaching personnel.

was terrible last season. It should have been the number one priority in off-season. This is on Reese

there was a time when Mara picked players out of a magazine. maybe they should subscribe to Gil Brandt's? lmao :)

We had 1 of the best OL in football with an UDFA named Suebert who no knew could play and a FA C signed from a bad team that no one knew could play plus a 5th rd pick plus a FA 3rd rd RT

Does this OL with with a 1st, 3 2nds, 2 3rds and 2 4ths get time or not

This team does not win a SB in 2011 without Their non OL high picks

IMO he got too emotional and was much to quick to indict the coaches instead of sitting back and evaluating the entire process. Maybe the reason is because he and his brother work so closely with the GM and scouting department, but I think it was a major failure on his part to quickly come out publically with the "the offense is broken" stuff or even come out publically at all. Sure he threw some red meat to frustrated fans and made them all feel better, but ultimately fans will fell better by improving the team.

Why not give it some time to settle and meet with GM and coaches first. Why not ask your two time Super Bowl winning coach what parts he believes he needs improved to get back to where they were? Maybe they would still end up coming to the conclusion to scrape the offense and start over, or just maybe they would have concentrated on other things as the best path to take. For that matter I would think Mara would have wanted the opinion of his franchise QB before doing anything drastic with his team.

It is still early and it very well might work out that this offense is the best thing for Eli and the team and I will generally stay positive. But there is something in my gut that doesn't feel right with McAdoo and how it relates to Eli. I always believe the best coaches will coach based on their players strengths and weaknesses. Placing them in the positron to best succeed by utilizing their strengths and masking their weaknesses. Admittedly I may be completely wrong about this, but I just have this feeling that McAdoo has long had his ideas to try if and when he got his shot and he is doing exactly what he always wanted and it hasn't changed much after spending time analyzing Eli and the current roster.

did come from a bad OL. However O'Hara was considered the bright spot of that OL and it was Accorsi who signed O'Hara.