First off, no need for name calling or attacks, just express your opinion on what needs to change.
I would really love to hear everyone's take on what they would do to fix this mess. Put on your GM / Owner hat and take a stab. And please, don't be dicks, we are all fans of the same team and just want to see them be competitive year after year.
Here is my take. First off I would do the right thing for both the team and Eli and trade him sooner rather than later. The Rams, the Texans, whoever, just get as much as you can for him, hopefully a quality guard could be had in the process to assist in Nassib's development. I would let TC ride out the season and allow him to "retire" as was done with Gilbride. Reese would get no such pass, I would fire him immediately and start the search for a new GM. This would allow the new guy to really start studying the roster to get rid of the dead wood (J. Williams, M. Herzlich, W. Beatty, etc.) and give him time to start eyeballing a new head coach.
I only wish they had just done this back in January. Even if we watched a losing season this year you would have the sense that they were building for the future. Now I just have the sense that they clung to the past a year (or 2) too long. It's quite depressing watching that kind of scenario play out.
I'll finish with saying that I truly appreciate what TC and Eli have brought us for the past decade. I also can appreciate ownership being so loyal to these 2 for as long as they have. At this point however they need to be loyal to the rest of the quality players on the team as well as their fans and do what is needed to put a quality team on the field for the next decade and beyond.
After the season, I'd completely clean house in the front office and on the sidelines.
*Admit you made a mistake firing Gilbride when it was an atrocious o line that was responsible
Is there really a way to fix this ungodly collection of talentless trash?
.....Sure hope so
Get picks in the next 2 years drafts.
Get new blood into the scouting/personnel department to use these picks.
How else can they improve drastically?
Or, if this season goes to shit in the form of a 3-13 season, it's housecleaning time. Reese should be out the door first. I believe we can win again with Eli but I wouldn't be able to pass on Mariota, especially when the alternative is paying a declining Manning $20 million to endure a rebuilding process anyway. Build the offense from scratch around a young QB, Cruz, Beckham (if he ever plays), Andre Williams, Richburg and Pugh. The rest can catch the first flight out of town. As for Coughlin, it's not his fault but there isn't much logic behind keeping him for a multi-year rebuild.
This will be fascinating to watch.
The Giants have 3 RGs on the roster - Schwartz, Mosley, and Jerry. Schwartz of course is on short IR and playing LG when healthy (nobody knows why).
If the line still sucks when Schwartz returns, then I guess you could move Richburg to C and plug Schwartz in at LG. The better of Mosley/Jerry starts at RG.
Apparently Snyder sucks, that's why he was available. Otherwise, he might fit at LG, I don't know.
The line is a mess. There's no fixing it. Either they play better, or Eli gets killed and the team wins a few games and finishes last in the NFC East.
I think right now the only thing that can "fix" the team is time. They've made a bunch of moves, now they're going to have to play out for awhile before we know which ones worked and which one's didn't.
I do know that I would get rid of Fewell and the Tampa 2 next offseason.
Even though we won a title with him I would replace Fewell with another coordinator who is able to actually design some pass pressure packages. I am also sick of seeing endless blown coverages and conversions by the opposition on absurd third and longs , it seems under this DC we have so many.
Fortify the D and build a physical O line. Move away from the idea that you have to air it out 45 times a game to win.
Eli to me is the least of the Giants problem, assemble any type of meaningful squad around him and you have a puncher's chance to beat anyone in the NFL anytime. We have seen this for a decade now. If you have a strong D and keep things close until late I have no doubt Eli will make some big plays to put the Giants on top.
This season is lost, IMO. Too much talentless dreck vets. I would bench non-performing vets like Beatty, but thanks to Reese the fill-ins would be Brown or Brewer <puke>.
I don't have any idea how to fix it. But I will say the team is woefully devoid of talent. Whomever or whatever is responsible needs to be replaced of fixed.
I want us to draft nothing but OL/DL for the next 2 years. Load up on those fronts. Even though we have a glaring need at WR, our lines are so putrid right now. When Nassib or whoever takes over, I want an established, dominant line in front of them so we dont see shit shows like we have the last two years.
don't wake the simple
How about we trade him to the Jets? If Eli was on the Jets right now they would be a legit super bowl contender.
when this team O/D still look like they don't know what is going on, after a while its obviously NOT just the players so the HC and GM gotta go... drafting is shit and preparation or teaching just doesn't seem to be there.
whoever else that is contributing to piss poor execution of the OL, that coach has to go.
oh and Perry Fewell... jesus christ... when will we stop playing 10 yards off the WR's when the 1st down marker is 3 yards away?
get better talent evaluators... poach from any other teams no matter the cost
with the top 5 pick get Winston/Mariotta whatever and brig in a new college coach...
As for the OL, there is nothing we can do. Do you really want to replace Jerry with Mosley? Or Beatty with Brewer or Brown? Going from terrible to horrendous IMO. You can bench JJ and Randle, but are Parker, and Washington, a UDFA from Newberry, any better? And they probably have even less rapport with Eli than JJ and Randle since they got most of their reps with Nassib.
Here's what you do right now: prepare for Arizona.
Reese has been horrible these past few seasons and I could forgive him but he comes off so arrogant and smug I can't stand him and would love to fire both him and Ross in person. Mara should realize that you have major problems in your organization when none of your assistant coaches or front office people are getting looked for jobs on other teams. Perry Fewell is a below average DC we see the same issues with our soft zones and blitzes that never get to the Qb as you did when he first came here. McAdoo might be a ok OC but he is so green and inexperienced in calling games it will take time to learn but unfortunately for him he will be fired with this staff and it may stunt his future development. Finally the HC I love the guy but this team seems to have the same issues injuries, young talent that never see the field and blind loyalty to coaches that should have seen the door years ago. For that reason he has to go like the rest.
Have a serious sit down talk with Fewell and have him revamp his playcalling to adapt to the players strengths! Play calling by him was horrible, completely outcoached by the Lions. That's just a few things to begin with for now. Any type of changes at this point couldn't hurt the team, I don't see how it can get any worse..
Scout teams PS list for 'hidden' players;
Have D take lessons on 'how not to get faked out by every O position players hip movements'(was there not a fake step we didnt fall for last night?)
Long term:
Draft OL
Team speed and/or quickness (we are sooo slow)
And after another survival-dash by Eli most of last night, the trade Eli comment on this thread makes a lot of sense if there is no short term team improvement to the OL. Poor guy is gonna get killed; especially on 1 play where he was on his knees a la YA after dumping off to Jennings.
I'd hate it, but at least most anywhere else, he likely does not get killed.
Then, in the best draft for tackles and guards in a decade, we fail to draft a tackle or a guard. But we draft a DT in the 3rd round that was out getting a sub when the Giants picked him because he was sure he wouldn't be drafted that high.
Now if it's still like this in 2 months, then that's another story.
The offseason is a totally different matter though
What lead to the Giants Success in the past. A freaking plan. How good has flying by the seat of your pants worked with other franchises?
This offense has no fire power. No room for error and it makes a lot of errors.
Star power. We lack it.
Start Corey Washington over JJ. JJ's too short and too lacking in talent to be a starter. In fact, if there's a promising WR on someone else's PS, release JJ and sign that WR. IMO there are lots of players on varios PS like JJ.
Start Demps or Berhe over Stevie Brown. Brown is too slow, misses tackles and seems to be frequently out of position.
Start Kennard over Jacquian Williams. Williams is not a 3-down LB but should only be in there on passing downs.
Drop Fells and sign a TE from someone else's PS. If that player doesn't work out, then sign another PS TE until you find one who has potential. I don't believe Fells has any potential and if he's not starting at his age and experience, then release him.
Release Charles Brown, James Brewer and Dallas Reynolds and sign OL from other team's PS until we find 3 OL with potential. Brown and Brewer are terrible and Reynolds, at 30 years old, is not getting better. Seahawks just signed Andrew McDonald OT from the Panther PS, for example.
Move Pugh to LT to protect Eli's blind side, which is where Pugh played in college and play John Jerry or Adam Snyder at RT, a position each has played in the past.
Start Kuhn or Bromley over Patterson. Make Patterson Inactive and rotate Kuhn and Bromley in and out.
Activate Kerry Wynn and de-activate Herzlich. Rotate Wynn at DE with JPP, Kiwi, Moore and Ayers. Herzlich really playing only on STs.
When Schwartz comes back, put him at RG , which is where he played so well last year.
Demote Perry Futile from DC and promote someone, anyone from the current coaching staff.
Stop the zone defenses and play man coverage. Stop 3 man pass rushes.
Stop fooling around with Eli's footwork. Let him use the footwork that won 2 SBs.
Trading Eli for stupid fucking draft picks is crazy. The offense isn't far away from being fixed. A WR here, a OL there and it could turn around real quick. Trade Eli and this offense is years away from contending.
Keep adding talent to the offense. Right now you have Eli, Cruz, Pugh, Walton, Richburg and maybe Donnell...and that's about it. MAybe one of Randle and Jernigan emerge as a decent 2-3 WR...hopefully Beckum shows legit WR potential before the end of the year.
Add talent. Don't trade it away unless the offer for Eli is so good it's impossible to pass it up. We better be getting a king's ransom for Eli. I have news for you all, we won't.
This offense has no fire power. No room for error and it makes a lot of errors.
Star power. We lack it.
I think calling our RBs dreadful is a bit of an exaggeration.......we need another month of football to help better evaulate.
Trading Eli for stupid fucking draft picks is crazy. The offense isn't far away from being fixed. A WR here, a OL there and it could turn around real quick. Trade Eli and this offense is years away from contending.
Keep adding talent to the offense. Right now you have Eli, Cruz, Pugh, Walton, Richburg and maybe Donnell...and that's about it. MAybe one of Randle and Jernigan emerge as a decent 2-3 WR...hopefully Beckum shows legit WR potential before the end of the year.
Add talent. Don't trade it away unless the offer for Eli is so good it's impossible to pass it up. We better be getting a king's ransom for Eli. I have news for you all, we won't.
Yes, unless we get two 1st rounders for Eli at a minimum you don't do it. Remember Carson Palmer of all people commanded two 1sts and he doesn't have anything close to Eli's resume
I want us to draft nothing but OL/DL for the next 2 years. Load up on those fronts. Even though we have a glaring need at WR, our lines are so putrid right now. When Nassib or whoever takes over, I want an established, dominant line in front of them so we dont see shit shows like we have the last two years.
If the Giants think Eli's run his course here then here are the courses of action near the top of the draft.
1. Trade Eli to Houston for 2 1st rounders, then trade them up to draft Winston or Mariota if we are not in position to draft one of them. As important as the OL is you have to start with another franchise QB first because the way the NFL is constructed, it's impossible to win without that top QB.
2. Trade Eli for the 1st rounders, draft OL/DL with those picks, and give Nassib a year. We'll probably be bad again in 2015 and we might have enough ammo in 2016 to trade up to get Hackenberg.
3. Keep Eli for one more year, draft OL/WR/DL with the top three picks in 2015, and let him play out the contract. Then see where you stand for the 2016 draft and if you're in a position to draft Hackenberg, do so. if not, hope that Connor Cook or Kessler develops into a good NFL prospect and draft one of them to compete with Nassib
Play the season and make personel decisions as we go along.
After the season ,assess the entire roster,resign players we want to keep ,sign players in free agency,and draft players to build this team.
Just like every year.
A broken down Carson Palmer fetched 2 first rounders and he was never as good as Eli. Established QBs are the most valuable commodities in the league
WE could use upgrades across the board. Every position on offense needs help and that includes RB. Even if this team rattled off 10 straight wins, they won't, but if they did, i'd still consider adding a RB in the offseason.
Beyond 2014, I think getting a legit #1 WR is the top priority.
This offense needs a HR hitter in the worst way. I still wish we signed JAmes jones in the offseason
Quote:
He'd have to drastically improve his play.
A broken down Carson Palmer fetched 2 first rounders and he was never as good as Eli. Established QBs are the most valuable commodities in the league
Palmer was 2 years younger, and had QB rating of 82.4 compared to Manning's 69.4. Plus he didn't have as big a contract as Manning. And they got a 1 and a 2.
Start Corey Washington over JJ. JJ's too short and too lacking in talent to be a starter. In fact, if there's a promising WR on someone else's PS, release JJ and sign that WR. IMO there are lots of players on varios PS like JJ.
Start Demps or Berhe over Stevie Brown. Brown is too slow, misses tackles and seems to be frequently out of position.
Start Kennard over Jacquian Williams. Williams is not a 3-down LB but should only be in there on passing downs.
Drop Fells and sign a TE from someone else's PS. If that player doesn't work out, then sign another PS TE until you find one who has potential. I don't believe Fells has any potential and if he's not starting at his age and experience, then release him.
Release Charles Brown, James Brewer and Dallas Reynolds and sign OL from other team's PS until we find 3 OL with potential. Brown and Brewer are terrible and Reynolds, at 30 years old, is not getting better. Seahawks just signed Andrew McDonald OT from the Panther PS, for example.
Move Pugh to LT to protect Eli's blind side, which is where Pugh played in college and play John Jerry or Adam Snyder at RT, a position each has played in the past.
Start Kuhn or Bromley over Patterson. Make Patterson Inactive and rotate Kuhn and Bromley in and out.
Activate Kerry Wynn and de-activate Herzlich. Rotate Wynn at DE with JPP, Kiwi, Moore and Ayers. Herzlich really playing only on STs.
When Schwartz comes back, put him at RG , which is where he played so well last year.
Demote Perry Futile from DC and promote someone, anyone from the current coaching staff.
Stop the zone defenses and play man coverage. Stop 3 man pass rushes.
Stop fooling around with Eli's footwork. Let him use the footwork that won 2 SBs.
Excellent. But nobody is demoting Fewell.
(donnel and fells)
medium term - this year (RR needs more time in practice with manning, etc, more work, tweak routes blend and practice practice practice)
long term - get a less high shootin GM, (build the line in draft) run my modified 46, adjust the roster money imbalance.
Start Kennard over Williams and Ayers over Kiwi immediately.
Let the defense play man coverage. The entire fan base has been calling for this since PF's arrival. Not to mention it's what our DB's do best.
Play more no huddle which is when Eli is at his best and pray that this offense starts to gel in any way shape or form.
No matter what happens this year however two things I really want the most is Marc Ross (Jerry Reese's BIGGEST mistake) fired and Fewell replaced with a more aggressive DC.
For this year, i would play washington over jernigan. if he does well then i would try to see how OBJ washington and cruz do in 3 wr sets. but i would do this if they go 0-3. can't jump the gun after one game.
Plus Nassib becomes the starting QB. Suppose he's no good; it doesn't appear that he's ready yet. Suppose Nassib gets hurt- then what?
IMO trading Eli is not the answer. If we had a good OL, good TEs, good WRs and RBs with better speed and Eli was performing badly, then I'd say let's trade him. But with a crappy OL, terrible TEs, average WRs and RBs with good speed, I don't think Eli is the biggest problem we have- in fact, Cruz and he are the only good, proven players on offense that we have. Why would you want to subtract one (Eli) by trading him?
He only has a few prime years left. We are a start from scratch team. Also tge team looks just like the team that started last season 0-6 and fans see the epic bad season coming.
The line is still a fucking mess. Much more than Eli is.
2. Yes, I too would look to trade Eli. Would not even be concerned with what we got in return. To, me this is about unloading the $20 million per year of cap dollars that can be spent elsewhere. It is not because I don't think Eli is a good QB... he is. He just cannot perform under these circumstances and until we have more money to spend on the O-line, we will not see any improvement. UNFORTUNATELY this will never happen because so many Giants fans would revolt.
3. After the disaster we are about to experience this season, draft a QB in this spring. Nassib comes to camp as the starter with the rookie having a chance to also earn the job.
4. Use the Eli cap money to sign some guys to put a stud O-line together. Maybe also sign a DL too.
Whoever we get to play QB will NOT be as good as Eli. However, with a solid O-line we will at least have the ability to run the ball and to give a young QB a chance. Right now, this team is spiraling out of control. Every free agent signing and draft pick that does not produce is putting us deeper and deeper into a hole.
It has to end... or we may wake up and envy the Cleveland fans.
Would a Nassib or a different QB have overcome a 30+ point drubbing in Carolina or get a win in KC where we were pummeled. Would a different QB have somehow been able to tear apart the Lions without any help from the WR's?
If you think so, then trading Eli would be a wise move. On the flip side, if you think so, you have a really shitty time processing what you've seen.
Would a Nassib or a different QB have overcome a 30+ point drubbing in Carolina or get a win in KC where we were pummeled. Would a different QB have somehow been able to tear apart the Lions without any help from the WR's?
If you think so, then trading Eli would be a wise move. On the flip side, if you think so, you have a really shitty time processing what you've seen.
I agree with you 100% which is why my plan above is different. The only other QBs that can succeed with this O line are guys who can seriously do it with their legs. It would keep the defense back on their heels a little and would create a little time. We know that we are not going to get a guy like that in a trade for Eli. So, we need to use the Eli money to change that environment (supporting cast) that you were referring to.
Additionally, he'll be 34 next season, and I don't know how anyone can say with any certainty just how good he actually is at this point.
I think that could actually end up worse than what people think of the team now.
We've seen good eli with mediocre lines and we've seen bad eli with horrendous lines, and frankly, both versions would be better than a McCown, Henne or RGIII.
Then act.
We are paying All Pro price for a QB that has not played at that level in 18 months, for whatever the reason. The CAP formula needs to be looked at with great attention.
How that is done, I don't know. But I'm firmly of the belief that he needs to go.
Once that is done, I think they seriously need to re-think their priorities in the draft. Linemen must take precedence over skill position players for example.
It's very possible to rebuild the team quickly doing this but I agree they have to convince Eli to take some paycuts along the way.
And when that formula isn't at play and a Trent Dilfer takes the title, you have something extraordinary going on with the defense, like where you start to ask if that defense is the best of all time.
Look at the SB WB's recently. both Mannings, Big Ben, Brees, Brady, even Flacco fits the mold. Wilson really doesn't, but again - that seattle D was devastatingly good.
There's only one problem, the one guy who can possibly make all that happen is also a part of the reason the Giants are in this huge mess.. I just don't see Coughlin making changes or taking chances, but who knows at this state.
If Reese passed on Nicks and took next OL picked - Ebon Britton - terrible
If he passed on Beatty - next OL was Robert Brewster - 1 career game
If he passed on Barden - next OL taken John Luigs - 8 career games
Pass on Linjo - next OL is Vlad Ducasse
pass on C. jones - next is JD Walton
pass on Prince - Anthony Costanzo
pass on Austin - Rod Hudson
pass on Jernigan - Jah Reid
pass on Wilson - Mitchel Schwartz
pass on R. Randle - Josh LeRibeus
pass on Jayron Holsey - Tony Bergstrom
You know what is lacking here - good players, guys who can play T - none who are LT.
Keep hearing about Unger - they Giants were not going to draft a C when Ohara was coming off a pro bowl season
The only guy taken who is playing LT is Glenn and 40 picks were used ahead of him because no one thought he could play LT in the NFL
Brady plays at an all pro level year in and year out. As does Peyton and Brees and no one knows any of the aforementioned respective teams starting O linemen.
I don't know, I love Eli, but until a coach allows him to play the game like Eli excels at, this is going nowhere. Eli is not a west coast O QB.
Peyton went to Denver and said this is how I run my offense and this is what I want to do. Eli historically performs best in the shotgun formation, 2 minute drill, slinging the ball around. Not happening here under the new WC OC. Maybe best to for both player and team to move separate ways, especially since the QB cost 20m per year.
Conversation finished, waste of my time to get a reply like that.
Revel in your ignorance. Fine by me.
The Giants NEEDED to start addressing and planning for their future along the OL back in 2007. The fact that they kept whiffing on players like Guy Whimper should have sent off warning bells in Reese's head far before last year.
I can only hope that if we can learn one thing from our mistakes last year that it would be that we don't ride out the storm. Tom needs to go if we are sitting at week 11 3-7 again.
But you need to come out of the season knowing whether he can do it. If he can, your OL rebuild becomes a lot easier since RT are much easier to find than LT. If he can’t then you need an LT, since I am assuming that Beatty is not the answer.
Yes, Beatty is not especially well suited to RT, but he’s not exactly tearing it up at LT either, and he’s probably a better RT than Brown or Brewer.
I would do this after the bye so there is time to prepare.
I realize that there is a risk in any move you make in regards to personnel. The injuries to veterans and chances taken on project linemen have not panned out. There should be a leadership turnover this off season which will require coaches and FO people to take more seriously the O and D lines. Maybe the scouting needs improvement with the hiring of scouts who are more knowledgeable about Linemen.
A good to Great Defensive line is the foundation of a robust balanced defense. A good to Great Offensive line allows you to pass and run, depend less on gimmicks, in addition to keeping your twice Super Bowl Winning QB upright. I hope its not too late to make another run in the next few years since we have an experienced QB.
the rest of us should follow Jerry in DC's advice from the other thread and see who's worthy of keeping as an exercise in sanity.
try to enjoy this NFL season fellas...
Captain Obvious...over and out......
On defense there needs to be more man coverage with safeties providing backup coverage over the top. That cover-2 defense was exploited last night.
They cant survive in 3rd and 9 or more
now if they can fix the line eli can find the Wr he has now and the RB they have can move the ball better giving them a shot to turn things around with the new scheme
beatty was bad but i agree walton and terry were just as bad if not worse alot of the worst blocking came up the centre of the line on delayed blitz's these were squarely on walton
richberg,pugh and maybe schwartz are the basis of a serviceable OL but beatty is a liability,walton,terry and brewer arent upto the job either they need an OT to replace beatty,(or pugh and move pugh over to LT) and an OG to take over richbergs spot to allow him to move to centre
as for the defence thats the same old miscommunication issues that have plaqued the giants throughout fewells tenure,i dont like these hand off plays,i would rather they keep on their guy from snap to whistle
allowing megatron to run unchallenged through the secondry is suicide even the worst WR can score when they are that open and in the case of a guy like megatron you want to double cover him to ensure he NEVER gets that open
i can take a WR making a play to beat your DB i cant accept a guy left 30 yds of space to walk in for an easy score it just fires up the opposing team and demoralises your own players and MUST NOT happen again but it does and still is
Where is incognito? If he is available bring in
2) Play more man coverage and send blitzes
3) Pass more to RB . swings and screens
Toally agree