Half way through the game and it's clear we've got the worst OL in football.
Reese has done this Organization an injustice. Not sure the OL coaching is very good either. We haven't developed anyone the last 3 years. It's a really bad combo...
If the OL doesn't do a drastic turnaround we'll be lucky to win 3 games.
really bugs me is not just the physical mistakes, but the mental ones. But that comes with a line that hasn't played together. Someone stunts and no one picks it up!
i can only hope someone is tying you to a chair clockwork orange style to have to watch that abomination again, haha.
of the 11 men that line up for us on offense, 2 are above average...and it'd be a strong argument to say any of the others are even above replacement level (average) value. this is the least talent this offense has had top to bottom in a LONG time.
the pass rush on our side looked better the second time around (at least in 1st half) - not like Detroit versus our OL - but we got some decent pressure.
to go back to the draft threads but there were some heated debates between myself (along with a few others) and people who thought the Giants did enough to fix their o-line issues in the off-season.
They have one of the worst lines in football if not the worst. It's going to wreck the season.
really bugs me is not just the physical mistakes, but the mental ones. But that comes with a line that hasn't played together. Someone stunts and no one picks it up!
Eric did you get the the part where the RDE stunts up the middle and runs right past Walton? I mean jeez, one step right and he's blocked
will say I'm being an Eli apologist, but I was VERY harsh on him in the preseason.
But in this game, he had no chance.
And they have to stop throwing the football to Jernigan so much.
He had chances but unfortunately, Eli's mobility is at near nil. It's robotic. He made Stafford love like Spider-man. Eli has never been a superb athlete but man the amount of time it takes for him to drop back and scan the field is painful when you look around the league. The line will need to block longer just to get his feet set.
Gone are the days of Eli even trying to scramble for a run for positive yards.
but I kind of expected a poor OL performance against the loaded Lions DL. The Lions were not a good matchup at all for our revamped OL that is dealing with multiple new players and a new offensive scheme.
I don't expect our OL to become one of the better lines in the league, I still think it's the biggest weakness on our team. But Lions Week 1 always had the potential to be an ugly showing from our OL. I'll give them atleast one more week before I go to crazy on them.
when he signed John Jerry and Charles Brown? It's not a stretch to say they are the two worst linemen in the league. If you don't like Eli, cut him or bench him. Don't kill him.
And Beatty is a Reese double threat: Bad draft pick AND bad free agent signing.
How many games has Schwartz started again? How many years since Walton played a game? Holy shit with that group. If Eli's consecutive games streak is intact at the end of the year he should donate his body to science.
Sign a 2012 all pro offensive lineman this week after Mathis got hurt? (from ESPN)
"the Eagles signed veteran offensive lineman Wade Smith, linebacker Emmanuel Acho and offensive lineman Kevin Graf. Acho and Graf were on the Eagles' practice squad after spending all of training camp with the team.
The 6-foot-4, 295-pound Smith has 11 years' experience with four teams. He was named to the Pro Bowl after the 2012 season. Smith, 33, started 64 consecutive games at left guard for the Texans."
I will now go back in my corner and say repeatedly "In Reese we trust"
but look on the "bright" side ... at least nobody was as bad as Deterding (from 1998 or so?). Remember HIM??? Or that atrocious starting tackle in 2004 we had briefly ??? (He almost got Kurt Warner KILLED in that game at Giants Stadium vs. the Rams!!!!).
including the last SB run. DD and Kareem were not good tackles at that time. Boothe and Petrus were playing LG. I think this line has potential, but, as most figured, it would take time to get. By time, multiple games played. I also think those continuing to say that we should have taken Martin and Richburg couldn't be more wrong. Do they actually still think if Martin was in for Jerry the outcome would have been much different? How about if ODB Jr was on the field? Seemd to me that would make A LOT bigger difference. I think they got the draft right, and I believe TC was in agreement with Reese on the pick. Folks can blame Reese for the hammy issues, but that's just foolish.
There is nothing wrkng with concept. You cut ahead of a bubble to take down the DE to give the QB an angle. What is putrid is Zelmo's technique. He is so awful.
of improving the Oline?? smh.. Here's a guy who started and played well for Buffalo Seantrel Henderson who was picked up in the 7th Rd?!! But Reese didn't even take a chance in the late rounds on knowing how bad the Oline has looked?? smdh...
He was the best O Lineman we had in 2012, and was a key re-signing at the time. At what point does coaching have any role in these guys performing at a reasonable level??? Or did Beatty just get lucky all year long in 2012? Was or wasn't Schwartz an effective RG for a playoff team last year??? He comes here and looks iffy in pre season. Again, the GM or coaching. You guys bitch about neglecting the OL, we sign a top G in FA, draft guys in rounds 1 and 2, and it's like Jerry has done nothing. The Locklear pick up in 2012 was roundly critized, but worked out very well until he was benched in favor of Diehl and then broke his leg.
is half or mostly right. We have drafted OL, often high. We just can't coach/develop them worth a fluck. Brewer, Mosley, McCants, and how many other mid/late rounders...They go nowhere with our coaching. If TC and JR really are not questioning the coaching staff, then Mara needs to knock their heads together. It's the elephant in the bedroom by now (or however the cliche goes).
I must be a masochist!! This is by no means an excuse for O-Line, did anyone else notice Such holding two O-Linemen on a few occasions?? We still stunk the joint up!
but for a 7th rd pick come on?? How much risk do you really lose?? If he didn't pan out it only cost them a 6th or 7th rd pick! imo I would take that risk in a heartbeat especially knowing the Oline is lacking talent..
He was the best O Lineman we had in 2012, and was a key re-signing at the time. At what point does coaching have any role in these guys performing at a reasonable level??? Or did Beatty just get lucky all year long in 2012? Was or wasn't Schwartz an effective RG for a playoff team last year??? He comes here and looks iffy in pre season. Again, the GM or coaching. You guys bitch about neglecting the OL, we sign a top G in FA, draft guys in rounds 1 and 2, and it's like Jerry has done nothing. The Locklear pick up in 2012 was roundly critized, but worked out very well until he was benched in favor of Diehl and then broke his leg.
. Right after he was resigned Pat Kirwan pretty muh critiqued him and stated out right on Sirus he didn't think he was an NFL starter before last seaso. . Well I guess you know more than a former GM who's critique seems spot on. Yes he's coming off of an injury but Kirwan isn't the only one who doesn't think much of Beatty. Your assertion that he was very good in 2012 is an opinion. One which you can have but not one that I have to accept. And Reese gave the guy 8 million per year and he is uncuttable. So if your definition of key resigning means to totally hamstring your team with a 30 year old tackle who sucks then yes. He was a key resigning and a big reason this team will be picking very high again.
When I got to see him perform at the Senior Bowl. People don't want to believe it, but arm length is a real thing. As a tackle, if you can't get your paws on the defender first, you're toast. You will get tossed like a rag doll.
I kept my mouth shut last year when he had an OK season, but I'm really not sure if he's cut out to be a Tackle. DEFINITELY not an LT. Maybe he can be a good RT. He has a great mindset. It won't be from a lack of studying/preparing.
If I said it once, I said it a thousand times. This team needs to be really bad this year so we can infuse young, cheap, top tier talent. We're lacking those 3 things for the most part.
developing or making progress that's on the coaching staff. The Giants did draft and sign offensive linemen the last few years, but they have very little to show for it. At some point we have to hold the offensive line coach accountable.
I guess YOU know more than a two time SB winning GM and Coach. Do you think TC has no say in who he wants re-signed or not, coming over 2 SB wins in five years??? In your opinion he was not worth the re-signing - that fair enough, but why did he regress last year, is that on Reese??? Again, at what point does coaching start to become accountable? Did Kirwan slam the Schwartz signed too?
including the last SB run. DD and Kareem were not good tackles at that time. Boothe and Petrus were playing LG. I think this line has potential, but, as most figured, it would take time to get. By time, multiple games played. I also think those continuing to say that we should have taken Martin and Richburg couldn't be more wrong. Do they actually still think if Martin was in for Jerry the outcome would have been much different? How about if ODB Jr was on the field? Seemd to me that would make A LOT bigger difference. I think they got the draft right, and I believe TC was in agreement with Reese on the pick. Folks can blame Reese for the hammy issues, but that's just foolish.
LOL. Dood seriuosly, we patched our line up with unproven and/or coming off injury mid tier at best lineman.... at LEAST with some more young talent on the freakin line we could run the ball... beckham is a luxury you cant afford if your line is shit.
I don't understand how certain position coaches were fired
Flaherty - our O-line has been progressively getting worse each year since 2010, with different personnel? At what point does he get the finger pointed at him?
Ryan - our receivers fucking suck. Period. RR is a dumb shit and JJ is gutless.
Gilbride Jr. - TEs can't block for shit, can't develop "JPP of TEs".
Nunn - D-line gets no push, no pressure on the QB for how many years now?
Giunta - DBs constantly getting beat and poor communication. Stevie "I'd rather have C.C." Brown is dumber than dirt.
Herrmann - Linebackers. "O"-to-the-"M"-to-the-motherfucking-"G". Jacquain Williams is Mark Herzlich with 2 good legs...and that ain't a compliment.
and the chef who stirs this shit stew, Fewell - He, ugh, nevermind...fuck it.
last, but not the bit least, someone who, I swear, has nude pictures of the Maras, Reeses and Coughlins, all together, in his pocket, Quinn - discover Jack the Ripper's possible identity? no problem. discover how Tom Quinn hangs onto his job each year? not a fucking clue. Maybe they'll find DNA evidence in the next hundred years to solve this mystery.
He was the best O Lineman we had in 2012, and was a key re-signing at the time. At what point does coaching have any role in these guys performing at a reasonable level??? Or did Beatty just get lucky all year long in 2012? Was or wasn't Schwartz an effective RG for a playoff team last year??? He comes here and looks iffy in pre season. Again, the GM or coaching. You guys bitch about neglecting the OL, we sign a top G in FA, draft guys in rounds 1 and 2, and it's like Jerry has done nothing. The Locklear pick up in 2012 was roundly critized, but worked out very well until he was benched in favor of Diehl and then broke his leg.
yep my friend who is a Cowboys fan was bummed when the Giants took Beatty. He wanted Dallas to draft him.
If I said it once, I said it a thousand times. This team needs to be really bad this year so we can infuse young, cheap, top tier talent. We're lacking those 3 things for the most part.
The problem with that is this: somehow, this team seems to be currently constructed in such a way as to fail to develop -- or hell, to diminish -- a young player's talent over time.
A few years back we had every reason to be excited about the promise of a few young players. I can't think of one of them who hasn't gotten worse since then.
If the main problem is talent, one draft isn't likely to fix it.
That's not to say an NFL team can't reverse its fortunes quickly; but I can't think of many teams that have done it by drafting offensive linemen. The 1981-82 Redskins are an example from another era. The 2010-11 49ers, maybe? Davis and Iupati played key roles in San Francisco's turnaround, in their second year; but the biggest change on that OL might have been Staley finally getting his act together.
Seattle's line is an interesting mix. Okung and Unger were good picks in rounds one and two; Carpenter has been reviled as a bust for most of his pro career; Sweezy was a seventh-round project who played DT with Markus Kuhn at N.C. State; Britt was arguably a reach at #64 this year, and the RT he replaced (Giacomini) is a journeyman. The overall commitment of resources isn't very different from the Giants', except that the Seahawks gave themselves the opportunity to draft a premium LT by sucking in 2009.
Just for perspective, the Lions have selected in the top ten in ten of the last thirteen drafts. Their defensive line features two top-five picks (Suh and Ansah), plus Fairley who was taken at #13. The mystery isn't why they have so much more talent than the Giants. The mystery is how they have continued to lose anyway.
By contrast, the Giants have had exactly one top ten pick since 1997: Philip Rivers. At #12, Odell Beckham Jr. was their highest selection since 2004. They haven't selected an offensive lineman above the 19th pick in 25 years. Maybe that history reflects a misguided devaluation of the position, or maybe it just indicates that, on the rare occasions when the Giants have drafted high, they've had better options or more pressing needs at other positions.
I guess YOU know more than a two time SB winning GM and Coach. Do you think TC has no say in who he wants re-signed or not, coming over 2 SB wins in five years??? In your opinion he was not worth the re-signing - that fair enough, but why did he regress last year, is that on Reese??? Again, at what point does coaching start to become accountable? Did Kirwan slam the Schwartz signed too?
I'll let Reese's sterling work rebuilding the line speak for itself, That other ACTUAL independent NFL personal people have questioned Beatty before his horrific season shows your assertions he was a good pick and top player knot universal. THEN when he plays like crap proving such you want to insinuate that I think I know more than Reeese. I don't but others obviously do. Like most of the other NFL GMs since he's built the worst OL in the NFL 3 years running.
Personally I wanted them to fire both the GM and staff after last year but management gave them another shot after the late season run. Most likely another mistake.
Secondly like other people who want to cling to Reese he wasn't independent building the teams that won the Superbowl. Acorsi made the trade for ELi and without him the Giants don't win. Funny how Reese gets all the credit and no blame now that his drafts have sucked and his cap management and FA signings have been almost as bad.
Keep up the good work though. Keep shilling for Reese and Beatty. They definitely need the support.
and the offensive line is the most important unit on a team. A good O-Line makes every offensive & defensive unit on the team better. A bad one makes them all worse.
That said, I'm willing to give a little time for them to gel - and I'm mindful that the biggest FA acquisition is on the bench (as is our 1st round pick).
Separate from any of that though: in the Broncos game, the made a point of showing plays in which Peyton got the ball out (productively) in under 1.5 seconds. To those watching the game again: did the Giants do that? If not, did it look like it was because of play calling, WRs not being open, or Eli not reading things that fast? I know it's hard to tell without coaches tape, but it thought I'd ask in case anyone is able to comment on that.
Is it possible that Flaherty and McAdoo are not on the same page? A new offense means new blocking schemes. Flaherty might, I say might be an issue translating McAdoo's offense to his lineman
control the success, or lack thereof, our season. If he can come back and look like the lineman that JR paid up for then it would go far towards stabilizing the line and giving Eli time to do something. If Schwartz struggles, like some felt he did this preseason, we are probably toast.
First, he may simply not be all that good. His career was completely undistinguished until his contract drive in KC last year, so he might just be a less expensive, interior version of Will Beatty.
Second, his insertion into the lineup - at the bye week, we hope - will require at least a partial reboot of the "jelling" process, and possibly a dramatic shakeup if Richburg moves to center, and/or changes are made at tackle too. Even if the Giants somehow stay alive through the first seven games (say, 3-4 or 4-3), they come back from the bye with three games against last year's Final Eight. Although Indy might be a fair tryout for a rebuilt offensive line, the next two weeks offer the one-two punch of Seattle and San Francisco.
Anyway, the "one game at a time" mantra definitely applies to a line in such disarray, and Schwartz is out for the next six. If there's immediate help coming, the most likely candidates are Mosley and Snyder. Even Brewer is more likely to contribute in September and October than Schwartz - for the simple reason that the likelihood of Schwartz contributing is exactly zero.
No kidding E! There is the understatement of the year.
And to those comparing it to the OL of 2011 and 2012: STOP IT! That was a fading remnant of a once GREAT group, guys who were warriors and at least borderline All Pros who were on the back nine of their careers (Baas excepted). This OL stinks. Period. They have hope with Pugh and Richburg (if they would cut the crap and put him at C, his natural position). Walton, Jerry are retreads, Mosley a failed draft pick and Beatty is average at his best, Schwartz may be a poor allocation of $$ because he didn't look very impressive before he got hurt. I'll give him the benefit for now because once again, the Giants spend big $$ and then play a guy somewhere other than his natural position. Schwartz has NEVER played the left side EVER.
Since they fucked up passing on Zack Martin, the OL (pre-injuries) should have been Beatty - Jerry,Mosely or Walton - Richburg - Schwartz - Pugh. Martin in place of the 3 stooges at LG might look pretty good.
...because there's no way Martin would have hurt his foot in pre-season. Oh, wait...
Assuming Martin's plantar fasciitis doesn't become a chronic problem, and assuming he escapes other major injuries, and assuming he's as good as advertised, he will be an excellent addition for Dallas, and would have been one for the Giants. On the other hand, I don't see how anyone can look at the Giants' receiving corps and say they were wrong to pick a playmaking WR at #12.
Meanwhile, Mosley is a failed draft pick? Based on what? He'll move into the starting lineup this week. Then we can start judging him. If he flops, or gets hurt again, or if his back becomes a recurring problem, maybe it's time to turn the page.
the fact that Moseley hasn't been able to snag a starting job
in what world does a fan get to claim that the choice was wr/ol vs. ol/wr?
I bit my tounge draft day again and skipped the first game, the front offices draft tendancies have become so engrained and the ninny logic so played out, as i said in a thread pre-draft, taking a 'talent player' in round 1 threated to have a negative cascading effect on the positional value proposition for the rest of the draft.
now, who can argue that OL in the first three rounds would have been wrong? or, OL,OL, TE, DL etc etc etc
each draft has a different weight of value in different rounds and positions. each year, each team has a different balance of needs, opportunities and specific ways they want or need to play.
its complex enough that to just say 'you dont skip a talent player' is overly simplistic.
one might say 'you cannot time the market' as a way of allowing for an approach that avoids considering the draft as a whole made up of parts, but that might just be an excuse.
some have said that ''we lack a # 1 over the top wr threat''
however, in the first game, we appeared (wrongly) to lack ANY starting quality wrs of any type.
For years we had gotten away with patchwork OLs: last year the top people, (ownership?) seemed to make it clear that those days were over. and yet, it looks like the happenstance of a few good years of patchwork became mythologised to the degree that, when presented with the OBD drop, our guys lost their heads again.
on the other hand, the richburg pick and the williams pick look very good, I am guessing TC had a hand in those.
I would be happy with an additional receiver of any type (we may have them now in an RB and 2 TEs) and focussed on the uncanny and smart types pre-draft, allowing for that the tall or fast fade play types are a prize once you get the line and slot together, rather than a building block.
RE: Right, Zack Martin was a better immediate fix than Geoff Schwartz...
...because there's no way Martin would have hurt his foot in pre-season. Oh, wait...
Assuming Martin's plantar fasciitis doesn't become a chronic problem, and assuming he escapes other major injuries, and assuming he's as good as advertised, he will be an excellent addition for Dallas, and would have been one for the Giants. On the other hand, I don't see how anyone can look at the Giants' receiving corps and say they were wrong to pick a playmaking WR at #12.
Meanwhile, Mosley is a failed draft pick? Based on what? He'll move into the starting lineup this week. Then we can start judging him. If he flops, or gets hurt again, or if his back becomes a recurring problem, maybe it's time to turn the page.
1) I am not referring to the fact that Schwartz is injured. What I am referring to is that he was never considered anything but a journeymen prior to last year, and that they moved him away from his right side comfort zone.
2) A #1 pick at G is a much better long term solution than a journeyman G at big $$. That said, I would still have signed Schwartz though, because I thought it foolish to count on Snee being able to return as a starter. Bringing in a veteran G was necessary.
3) Yes, I consider Moseley a failed pick along with Brewer. If he could really play he should have, as a 2nd year player, been able to crack that god-awful OL last season. He only started 1 game, was inactive for 3. I truly hope he can make me eat these words when and if he comes back from his injury.
in what world does a fan get to claim that the choice was wr/ol vs. ol/wr?
I bit my tounge draft day again and skipped the first game, the front offices draft tendancies have become so engrained and the ninny logic so played out, as i said in a thread pre-draft, taking a 'talent player' in round 1 threated to have a negative cascading effect on the positional value proposition for the rest of the draft.
now, who can argue that OL in the first three rounds would have been wrong? or, OL,OL, TE, DL etc etc etc
Well, that's true. I think that the Giants thought they had addressed OL depth in FA a bit and still needed a play maker on offense. It's hard to argue against that given Randle and Jernigan's general lack of impact. The giants had two high picks where you can reasonably expect a guy to contribute this season and I think they wanted an OL and WR.
I would have been happy if they had picked Martin and Richburg too. But, I'm always for taking lineman on either side of the ball high.
It can't be more evident that the Giants sorely lack recievers
Eli was not running for his life for 60 minutes. There were plays where he had enough time for an NFL QB of his caliber to set and make throws, and these guys failed him. Neither INT was on him in my eyes. Donnell screwed up by not looking for the ball, not making himself a target for his QB.
Cruz stood in place and made no attempt to attack the ball. He let his defender cut in and take it away.
None of these WRs are doing right by him. Jennings dropped a sure first down. Cruz dropped two. Randle barely even showed up. Only Donnell seemed to actually want to be there.
. the only nuance is that I was willing to watch a team with a good line and 'yet lacking a burress 'home run hitter' ' wr for one year as opposed to trusting that the free agents would get the job done on the line and shooting for a run now.
stunt scenarios in practice? This is all minor league stuff. The concepts are all pretty much cut and dry. The issue is not miscommunication or lack of being comfortaable with the guy next to you its plainly sucking and being physically handled by the other side.
were excellent picks based on most predictions, especially with Randle looking like a mistake. I wish they had taken Gabe Jackson or Trai Turner over Bromley, but who knows. The 2014 was the best OL draft in 10 years.
The good news is that OT and 4-3 DE will be the 2 of the top 3 positions for the 2015 draft.
however, in the first game, we appeared (wrongly) to lack ANY starting quality wrs of any type.
This.
And it was even worse to see it up close as I did at Ford Field Monday.
When you have Jernigan at 5'8 matched up on the outside against the Lions corner, who is 6'0, that is a matchup advantage for the Lions and probably 31 other teams.
Randle was matched up I believe with Mathis, who is about 70 years old. One of their other DB's got hurt during the game. He couldn't get open at all.
So you have 2 of their 3 receivers who pose no threat whatsoever and likely would not start on a sizable amount of NFL rosters. There is no way to work around that.
however, in the first game, we appeared (wrongly) to lack ANY starting quality wrs of any type.
This.
And it was even worse to see it up close as I did at Ford Field Monday.
When you have Jernigan at 5'8 matched up on the outside against the Lions corner, who is 6'0, that is a matchup advantage for the Lions and probably 31 other teams.
Randle was matched up I believe with Mathis, who is about 70 years old. One of their other DB's got hurt during the game. He couldn't get open at all.
So you have 2 of their 3 receivers who pose no threat whatsoever and likely would not start on a sizable amount of NFL rosters. There is no way to work around that.
It was shocking to see how ineffective we were against a questionable and injured secondary.
looked good last year, when comparing him to the other 4 guys.....but in preseason, and the first game, he definitely does not look like the same guy we saw last year.....arm length aside, he is getting beat....
He may have to be moved, in the future.....and that creates another hole....
It was shocking to see how ineffective we were against a questionable and injured secondary.
And this is not the first time in recent memory.
When you add in a questionable (many would say porous) offensive line to that mix along with poor wide receivers and it is a toxic mix.
And expect that to continue this week. When the Cardinals decide they will put Peterson on Cruz to take him out of the game, where else are they going for offense when they put their 8 defenders in the box?
Can someone explain what they mean when they talk about all the talent
R Randle supposedly has? He has good, not great height, and that's about it. His speed would be considered adequate if he were a bigger more physical wide out. In this package, I can only describe it as serviceable speed.
I can't tell if he runs good routes, but even if they are technically beautiful, he runs them in the wrong direction and away from where Eli is throwing anyway....
What talents do you guys see that I can't?
stop saying the Giants, and Reese have ignored the OL
they have drafted numerous Olinemen in the early and mid rounds over the last 3-4 years. They have signed high priced FA OL this off season.
There's a difference between ignoring a position and drafting or signing players that haven't worked out.
Mosely was a 4th rounder. Brewer was a 3rd rounder. Richburg Beatty and Pugh were high premium picks. Schwartz was a big money signing. Walton wasn't cheap. That's six guys that all were drafted or signed with the expectations that they would be viable options along the OL for years to come.
The one move that this franchise probably should have at least explored, and I am surprised more people didn't clamor for it in March, was signing Jake Long. He was a free agent and was an accomplished LT in this league. He wouldn't have come cheap but you probably could have used the funds spent on DRC and spent it on Long.
Not sure if Long was possible but they didn't even make an offer. Anyone here not willing to trade DRC for Long this very second? Didn't think so...
During the 2013 NFL offseason, Long became a free agent. He received two contract offers: an extension from the Miami Dolphins, and a contract from the Rams. On March 17, 2013, Long signed a four-year, $36 million contract with the Rams.
looked good last year, when comparing him to the other 4 guys.....but in preseason, and the first game, he definitely does not look like the same guy we saw last year.....arm length aside, he is getting beat....
He may have to be moved, in the future.....and that creates another hole....
I really think he's going to end up at guard. As I said, he seems to be chasing more than dominating his man.
I wonder if Schwartz eventually swings out to RT.........
Brewer was taken in the latter half of the fourth round, not the third. Reese hinted that if the Giants had owned their fifth-round pick, they might have waited until then to take Brewer, but they figured he'd be gone by round six and there wasn't much of a market for the pick. So they took him at #117.
You're right that Mosley was a fourth-round selection, but barely: he was a supplemental pick, #131. The real shame with Mosley was the loss of his rookie season. A third-year pro should be farther along. I'm not sure the Giants even know what they have in him.
Anyway, I agree with your basic point: the investment in the offensive line since 2011 has been roughly what you'd expect: plenty of money for Baas, Beatty, Schwartz and Walton, premium picks for Pugh and Richburg, and several Day Three picks for development. A lot has gone wrong, but it's not as though they haven't tried. Arguably, less wishful thinking went into this line than the one that dominated in 2007-8. Seubert and Diehl (at LT) were more improbable susccess stories than anybody on the current line.
The two least-awful (I couldn't bring myself to say best) O-linemen were Richburg and Pugh - and both of them need to get better just to suck. The other three ("see no d-lineman", "hear no d-lineman" and "look out, Eli") were even more offensive.
had some MAJOR off-field or weight/motivation issues, IIRC. If Reese had picked him, this board would have gone up in a mushroom cloud.
I actually wanted SH and thought he was a 3rd or 4th rd talent. He is huge but didn't complete his college Pro Day, he basically quit and walked off the field. That would turn teams off.
RE: It can't be more evident that the Giants sorely lack recievers
Eli was not running for his life for 60 minutes. There were plays where he had enough time for an NFL QB of his caliber to set and make throws, and these guys failed him. Neither INT was on him in my eyes. Donnell screwed up by not looking for the ball, not making himself a target for his QB.
Cruz stood in place and made no attempt to attack the ball. He let his defender cut in and take it away.
None of these WRs are doing right by him. Jennings dropped
a sure first down. Cruz dropped two. Randle barely even showed up. Only Donnell seemed to actually want to be there.
Agree with the Cruz INT being on him to an extent. He could have come back for the ball rather than just stand there but, it was a poorly thrown ball. The Donnel pass was thrown to early, that was totally on Eli.
how could anybody re-watch that game? Painful to watch it live...to look at again must be excruciating.
Other than a decent run defense, the Giant players looked like they haven't practiced football in years. Only a few key penalties by Detroit kept this from being a first half blowout, and only delayed the inevitable until the second half.
Look forward to see SOME progress this week...in any area.
he seems built for RT and Pugh for RG. I don't recall seeing that in the pre-season session of musical chairs. I would have been excited to see that, but, of course, Mosley was held out a bit.
Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute...lady.
Reese has done this Organization an injustice. Not sure the OL coaching is very good either. We haven't developed anyone the last 3 years. It's a really bad combo...
If the OL doesn't do a drastic turnaround we'll be lucky to win 3 games.
But in this game, he had no chance.
And they have to stop throwing the football to Jernigan so much.
And no, Richburg did not have a good game. I've seen that a few times on the board today.
i can only hope someone is tying you to a chair clockwork orange style to have to watch that abomination again, haha.
of the 11 men that line up for us on offense, 2 are above average...and it'd be a strong argument to say any of the others are even above replacement level (average) value. this is the least talent this offense has had top to bottom in a LONG time.
They have one of the worst lines in football if not the worst. It's going to wreck the season.
Eric did you get the the part where the RDE stunts up the middle and runs right past Walton? I mean jeez, one step right and he's blocked
But in this game, he had no chance.
And they have to stop throwing the football to Jernigan so much.
He had chances but unfortunately, Eli's mobility is at near nil. It's robotic. He made Stafford love like Spider-man. Eli has never been a superb athlete but man the amount of time it takes for him to drop back and scan the field is painful when you look around the league. The line will need to block longer just to get his feet set.
Gone are the days of Eli even trying to scramble for a run for positive yards.
I don't expect our OL to become one of the better lines in the league, I still think it's the biggest weakness on our team. But Lions Week 1 always had the potential to be an ugly showing from our OL. I'll give them atleast one more week before I go to crazy on them.
And Beatty is a Reese double threat: Bad draft pick AND bad free agent signing.
How many games has Schwartz started again? How many years since Walton played a game? Holy shit with that group. If Eli's consecutive games streak is intact at the end of the year he should donate his body to science.
"the Eagles signed veteran offensive lineman Wade Smith, linebacker Emmanuel Acho and offensive lineman Kevin Graf. Acho and Graf were on the Eagles' practice squad after spending all of training camp with the team.
The 6-foot-4, 295-pound Smith has 11 years' experience with four teams. He was named to the Pro Bowl after the 2012 season. Smith, 33, started 64 consecutive games at left guard for the Texans."
I will now go back in my corner and say repeatedly "In Reese we trust"
i'd take false start # 77 on this OL in a heartbeat.
. Right after he was resigned Pat Kirwan pretty muh critiqued him and stated out right on Sirus he didn't think he was an NFL starter before last seaso. . Well I guess you know more than a former GM who's critique seems spot on. Yes he's coming off of an injury but Kirwan isn't the only one who doesn't think much of Beatty. Your assertion that he was very good in 2012 is an opinion. One which you can have but not one that I have to accept. And Reese gave the guy 8 million per year and he is uncuttable. So if your definition of key resigning means to totally hamstring your team with a 30 year old tackle who sucks then yes. He was a key resigning and a big reason this team will be picking very high again.
And they have to stop throwing the football to Jernigan so much.
I was saying that while watching the game. Every damn pass to him. Ridiculous.
I kept my mouth shut last year when he had an OK season, but I'm really not sure if he's cut out to be a Tackle. DEFINITELY not an LT. Maybe he can be a good RT. He has a great mindset. It won't be from a lack of studying/preparing.
If I said it once, I said it a thousand times. This team needs to be really bad this year so we can infuse young, cheap, top tier talent. We're lacking those 3 things for the most part.
LOL. Dood seriuosly, we patched our line up with unproven and/or coming off injury mid tier at best lineman.... at LEAST with some more young talent on the freakin line we could run the ball... beckham is a luxury you cant afford if your line is shit.
Flaherty - our O-line has been progressively getting worse each year since 2010, with different personnel? At what point does he get the finger pointed at him?
Ryan - our receivers fucking suck. Period. RR is a dumb shit and JJ is gutless.
Gilbride Jr. - TEs can't block for shit, can't develop "JPP of TEs".
Nunn - D-line gets no push, no pressure on the QB for how many years now?
Giunta - DBs constantly getting beat and poor communication. Stevie "I'd rather have C.C." Brown is dumber than dirt.
Herrmann - Linebackers. "O"-to-the-"M"-to-the-motherfucking-"G". Jacquain Williams is Mark Herzlich with 2 good legs...and that ain't a compliment.
and the chef who stirs this shit stew, Fewell - He, ugh, nevermind...fuck it.
last, but not the bit least, someone who, I swear, has nude pictures of the Maras, Reeses and Coughlins, all together, in his pocket, Quinn - discover Jack the Ripper's possible identity? no problem. discover how Tom Quinn hangs onto his job each year? not a fucking clue. Maybe they'll find DNA evidence in the next hundred years to solve this mystery.
yep my friend who is a Cowboys fan was bummed when the Giants took Beatty. He wanted Dallas to draft him.
The problem with that is this: somehow, this team seems to be currently constructed in such a way as to fail to develop -- or hell, to diminish -- a young player's talent over time.
A few years back we had every reason to be excited about the promise of a few young players. I can't think of one of them who hasn't gotten worse since then.
Seattle's line is an interesting mix. Okung and Unger were good picks in rounds one and two; Carpenter has been reviled as a bust for most of his pro career; Sweezy was a seventh-round project who played DT with Markus Kuhn at N.C. State; Britt was arguably a reach at #64 this year, and the RT he replaced (Giacomini) is a journeyman. The overall commitment of resources isn't very different from the Giants', except that the Seahawks gave themselves the opportunity to draft a premium LT by sucking in 2009.
Just for perspective, the Lions have selected in the top ten in ten of the last thirteen drafts. Their defensive line features two top-five picks (Suh and Ansah), plus Fairley who was taken at #13. The mystery isn't why they have so much more talent than the Giants. The mystery is how they have continued to lose anyway.
By contrast, the Giants have had exactly one top ten pick since 1997: Philip Rivers. At #12, Odell Beckham Jr. was their highest selection since 2004. They haven't selected an offensive lineman above the 19th pick in 25 years. Maybe that history reflects a misguided devaluation of the position, or maybe it just indicates that, on the rare occasions when the Giants have drafted high, they've had better options or more pressing needs at other positions.
I'll let Reese's sterling work rebuilding the line speak for itself, That other ACTUAL independent NFL personal people have questioned Beatty before his horrific season shows your assertions he was a good pick and top player knot universal. THEN when he plays like crap proving such you want to insinuate that I think I know more than Reeese. I don't but others obviously do. Like most of the other NFL GMs since he's built the worst OL in the NFL 3 years running.
Personally I wanted them to fire both the GM and staff after last year but management gave them another shot after the late season run. Most likely another mistake.
Secondly like other people who want to cling to Reese he wasn't independent building the teams that won the Superbowl. Acorsi made the trade for ELi and without him the Giants don't win. Funny how Reese gets all the credit and no blame now that his drafts have sucked and his cap management and FA signings have been almost as bad.
Keep up the good work though. Keep shilling for Reese and Beatty. They definitely need the support.
It might be a little early to judge. They need to play together.
Separate from any of that though: in the Broncos game, the made a point of showing plays in which Peyton got the ball out (productively) in under 1.5 seconds. To those watching the game again: did the Giants do that? If not, did it look like it was because of play calling, WRs not being open, or Eli not reading things that fast? I know it's hard to tell without coaches tape, but it thought I'd ask in case anyone is able to comment on that.
It only took me once to realize they couldn't block
LOL. This is false.
Second, his insertion into the lineup - at the bye week, we hope - will require at least a partial reboot of the "jelling" process, and possibly a dramatic shakeup if Richburg moves to center, and/or changes are made at tackle too. Even if the Giants somehow stay alive through the first seven games (say, 3-4 or 4-3), they come back from the bye with three games against last year's Final Eight. Although Indy might be a fair tryout for a rebuilt offensive line, the next two weeks offer the one-two punch of Seattle and San Francisco.
Anyway, the "one game at a time" mantra definitely applies to a line in such disarray, and Schwartz is out for the next six. If there's immediate help coming, the most likely candidates are Mosley and Snyder. Even Brewer is more likely to contribute in September and October than Schwartz - for the simple reason that the likelihood of Schwartz contributing is exactly zero.
Since they fucked up passing on Zack Martin, the OL (pre-injuries) should have been Beatty - Jerry,Mosely or Walton - Richburg - Schwartz - Pugh. Martin in place of the 3 stooges at LG might look pretty good.
BTW, Pugh just always seems to be chasing, rather than blocking. Could guard be in his future?
Assuming Martin's plantar fasciitis doesn't become a chronic problem, and assuming he escapes other major injuries, and assuming he's as good as advertised, he will be an excellent addition for Dallas, and would have been one for the Giants. On the other hand, I don't see how anyone can look at the Giants' receiving corps and say they were wrong to pick a playmaking WR at #12.
Meanwhile, Mosley is a failed draft pick? Based on what? He'll move into the starting lineup this week. Then we can start judging him. If he flops, or gets hurt again, or if his back becomes a recurring problem, maybe it's time to turn the page.
I'm going to be seeing this in my sleep for weeks: Walton standing there, blocking nothing but air, as a stunting end runs right past him.
Our guys are getting absolutely blasted and manhandled. Does not make sense.
beatty is a horror show, a complete liability
first play of game - off-tackle left for -2 yards.
guys taking turns getting beat (but it's somebody on every play). scary to play QB
I bit my tounge draft day again and skipped the first game, the front offices draft tendancies have become so engrained and the ninny logic so played out, as i said in a thread pre-draft, taking a 'talent player' in round 1 threated to have a negative cascading effect on the positional value proposition for the rest of the draft.
now, who can argue that OL in the first three rounds would have been wrong? or, OL,OL, TE, DL etc etc etc
its complex enough that to just say 'you dont skip a talent player' is overly simplistic.
one might say 'you cannot time the market' as a way of allowing for an approach that avoids considering the draft as a whole made up of parts, but that might just be an excuse.
however, in the first game, we appeared (wrongly) to lack ANY starting quality wrs of any type.
For years we had gotten away with patchwork OLs: last year the top people, (ownership?) seemed to make it clear that those days were over. and yet, it looks like the happenstance of a few good years of patchwork became mythologised to the degree that, when presented with the OBD drop, our guys lost their heads again.
on the other hand, the richburg pick and the williams pick look very good, I am guessing TC had a hand in those.
I would be happy with an additional receiver of any type (we may have them now in an RB and 2 TEs) and focussed on the uncanny and smart types pre-draft, allowing for that the tall or fast fade play types are a prize once you get the line and slot together, rather than a building block.
Assuming Martin's plantar fasciitis doesn't become a chronic problem, and assuming he escapes other major injuries, and assuming he's as good as advertised, he will be an excellent addition for Dallas, and would have been one for the Giants. On the other hand, I don't see how anyone can look at the Giants' receiving corps and say they were wrong to pick a playmaking WR at #12.
Meanwhile, Mosley is a failed draft pick? Based on what? He'll move into the starting lineup this week. Then we can start judging him. If he flops, or gets hurt again, or if his back becomes a recurring problem, maybe it's time to turn the page.
1) I am not referring to the fact that Schwartz is injured. What I am referring to is that he was never considered anything but a journeymen prior to last year, and that they moved him away from his right side comfort zone.
2) A #1 pick at G is a much better long term solution than a journeyman G at big $$. That said, I would still have signed Schwartz though, because I thought it foolish to count on Snee being able to return as a starter. Bringing in a veteran G was necessary.
3) Yes, I consider Moseley a failed pick along with Brewer. If he could really play he should have, as a 2nd year player, been able to crack that god-awful OL last season. He only started 1 game, was inactive for 3. I truly hope he can make me eat these words when and if he comes back from his injury.
I bit my tounge draft day again and skipped the first game, the front offices draft tendancies have become so engrained and the ninny logic so played out, as i said in a thread pre-draft, taking a 'talent player' in round 1 threated to have a negative cascading effect on the positional value proposition for the rest of the draft.
now, who can argue that OL in the first three rounds would have been wrong? or, OL,OL, TE, DL etc etc etc
Well, that's true. I think that the Giants thought they had addressed OL depth in FA a bit and still needed a play maker on offense. It's hard to argue against that given Randle and Jernigan's general lack of impact. The giants had two high picks where you can reasonably expect a guy to contribute this season and I think they wanted an OL and WR.
I would have been happy if they had picked Martin and Richburg too. But, I'm always for taking lineman on either side of the ball high.
Cruz stood in place and made no attempt to attack the ball. He let his defender cut in and take it away.
None of these WRs are doing right by him. Jennings dropped a sure first down. Cruz dropped two. Randle barely even showed up. Only Donnell seemed to actually want to be there.
The good news is that OT and 4-3 DE will be the 2 of the top 3 positions for the 2015 draft.
This.
And it was even worse to see it up close as I did at Ford Field Monday.
When you have Jernigan at 5'8 matched up on the outside against the Lions corner, who is 6'0, that is a matchup advantage for the Lions and probably 31 other teams.
Randle was matched up I believe with Mathis, who is about 70 years old. One of their other DB's got hurt during the game. He couldn't get open at all.
So you have 2 of their 3 receivers who pose no threat whatsoever and likely would not start on a sizable amount of NFL rosters. There is no way to work around that.
Quote:
however, in the first game, we appeared (wrongly) to lack ANY starting quality wrs of any type.
This.
And it was even worse to see it up close as I did at Ford Field Monday.
When you have Jernigan at 5'8 matched up on the outside against the Lions corner, who is 6'0, that is a matchup advantage for the Lions and probably 31 other teams.
Randle was matched up I believe with Mathis, who is about 70 years old. One of their other DB's got hurt during the game. He couldn't get open at all.
So you have 2 of their 3 receivers who pose no threat whatsoever and likely would not start on a sizable amount of NFL rosters. There is no way to work around that.
It was shocking to see how ineffective we were against a questionable and injured secondary.
And this is not the first time in recent memory.
He may have to be moved, in the future.....and that creates another hole....
Imagine that. Double Cruz but single cover Megatron in a zone.
They threw Coughlin a bone and let him keep at least some of his guys, after taking Gilbride away, maybe?
They'll all probably be gone next year anyway (except for Quinn; he's forever).
And this is not the first time in recent memory.
When you add in a questionable (many would say porous) offensive line to that mix along with poor wide receivers and it is a toxic mix.
And expect that to continue this week. When the Cardinals decide they will put Peterson on Cruz to take him out of the game, where else are they going for offense when they put their 8 defenders in the box?
I can't tell if he runs good routes, but even if they are technically beautiful, he runs them in the wrong direction and away from where Eli is throwing anyway....
What talents do you guys see that I can't?
There's a difference between ignoring a position and drafting or signing players that haven't worked out.
Mosely was a 4th rounder. Brewer was a 3rd rounder. Richburg Beatty and Pugh were high premium picks. Schwartz was a big money signing. Walton wasn't cheap. That's six guys that all were drafted or signed with the expectations that they would be viable options along the OL for years to come.
The one move that this franchise probably should have at least explored, and I am surprised more people didn't clamor for it in March, was signing Jake Long. He was a free agent and was an accomplished LT in this league. He wouldn't have come cheap but you probably could have used the funds spent on DRC and spent it on Long.
Not sure if Long was possible but they didn't even make an offer. Anyone here not willing to trade DRC for Long this very second? Didn't think so...
He may have to be moved, in the future.....and that creates another hole....
I really think he's going to end up at guard. As I said, he seems to be chasing more than dominating his man.
I wonder if Schwartz eventually swings out to RT.........
You're right that Mosley was a fourth-round selection, but barely: he was a supplemental pick, #131. The real shame with Mosley was the loss of his rookie season. A third-year pro should be farther along. I'm not sure the Giants even know what they have in him.
Anyway, I agree with your basic point: the investment in the offensive line since 2011 has been roughly what you'd expect: plenty of money for Baas, Beatty, Schwartz and Walton, premium picks for Pugh and Richburg, and several Day Three picks for development. A lot has gone wrong, but it's not as though they haven't tried. Arguably, less wishful thinking went into this line than the one that dominated in 2007-8. Seubert and Diehl (at LT) were more improbable susccess stories than anybody on the current line.
And why is it everybody's hamstring is hurt?
I actually wanted SH and thought he was a 3rd or 4th rd talent. He is huge but didn't complete his college Pro Day, he basically quit and walked off the field. That would turn teams off.
Cruz stood in place and made no attempt to attack the ball. He let his defender cut in and take it away.
None of these WRs are doing right by him. Jennings dropped
a sure first down. Cruz dropped two. Randle barely even showed up. Only Donnell seemed to actually want to be there.
Agree with the Cruz INT being on him to an extent. He could have come back for the ball rather than just stand there but, it was a poorly thrown ball. The Donnel pass was thrown to early, that was totally on Eli.
Other than a decent run defense, the Giant players looked like they haven't practiced football in years. Only a few key penalties by Detroit kept this from being a first half blowout, and only delayed the inevitable until the second half.
Look forward to see SOME progress this week...in any area.