Ray Rice - 2nd punishment for the same off the field offense

But I doubt it will do much because the public outcry is too strong. I think they will let it go and do the right thing.

really wants to come out and fight for Rice after the whole world has seen that video? It would make them look like monsters and it would be a PR nightmare. The union needs to pick battles they can win. They'd lose this one in the court of public opinion. I'm sure the union wants to clean up the puclic image of an NFL player, so distancing themselves from Rice would be their best move.

The new punishment is for crushing her jaw with a left.

Two separate offenses.

Weird thing to complain about...

but as uber and jughead point out, why would you expect the union to fight this? Fighting for their members' rights is important to them, but defending the initial punishment, which was widely derided before the tape was made public, wouldn't be a particularly smart move for them.

isn't even consistent with the new domestic violence policy the league just released.

Indefinite suspension for first offense, unless we never see the tape? What exactly is the rule now?

when the 1st penalty was handed down wording that said something to the to the effect that it could be revisited if new or more information came to light. Also maybe in his interview with them he either lied about some details or mislead them in some way which would give them reason to reevaluate.

That is there job. He pays his dues. What Rice did is disgusting and there is no excuse. However, to take the guys livelihood away for a one time incident is not right. I still can't get over how Stalworth killed a person and basically got an insignificant suspension and Rice punches his fiancé and basically is done in the NFL. As bad as Rice's incident was I feel like he is being made an example of for the NFL to show how they are in control and are not putting up with their bad image.

it is about letting a precedent be set that a player can be punished .... and then re-punished because the media, public etc does not like the initial punishment.

What Rice did was pure BS. However the precedent that is being set is not a good one. JMO.

Pretty sure someone at the NFL has, too. They knew the video would come out. They just wanted plausible deniability. The Rice's lying about what happened and the video not falling into the NFL's laps provided that.

And the slice of the marketplace that feels badly about Ray Rice's 'rights' just now is really thin. So don't expect a lot of people sharing your misdirected outrage.

the Union's job is to DO THEIR JOB!

The Indefinite Suspension
okayrene : 10:39 am : link : reply
isn't even consistent with the new domestic violence policy the league just released.

Indefinite suspension for first offense, unless we never see the tape? What exactly is the rule now?

plain and simple. The support for lengthening the suspension is due to this "new evidence".

The length of the suspension really doesn't matter. Maybe 3 years ago it would have, but he just not good enough anymore to have him on your team with the baggage he now has.

It was still one of the top stories this morning on the morning news shows. You can debate whether this is a more important story than ISIS and Ukraine, but the fact is that the media has seized on it and has no intentions at present of slowing down. I don't think the union wants to stand on train tracks in front of an oncoming train and pay the consequences.

Once the Ravens released him no team was going to touch him this season anyway and they really didn't have to do anything at that point.

In comment 11853636 robbieballs2003 said:

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That is there job. He pays his dues. What Rice did is disgusting and there is no excuse. However, to take the guys livelihood away for a one time incident is not right. I still can't get over how Stalworth killed a person and basically got an insignificant suspension and Rice punches his fiancé and basically is done in the NFL. As bad as Rice's incident was I feel like he is being made an example of for the NFL to show how they are in control and are not putting up with their bad image.

Exactly. And I expect them to challenge this decision in some fashion to defend its member's rights because that is basically their entire purpose for existing.

Joshn Brent is reinstated Week 11, right? Yea, the union will do its best to get rice back and playing too.

In comment 11853648 Jughead said:

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The length of the suspension really doesn't matter. Maybe 3 years ago it would have, but he just not good enough anymore to have him on your team with the baggage he now has.

Not this season anyway. I'm not sure about 2015.

If Jaynay just stabbed Rice in the eye with a pencil.

than gold digger tendencies.

eye stoving!!

I understand the double jeopardy issue here. But the union is going to have to deal with the reality that slaps on the risk are going to be a thing of the past. The days when Leonard Little can be convicted of vehicular homicide/DWI and get an 8 game suspension are over.

The second was letting it go forward.

Whether the NFL should have known about the severity of the attack before the second tape come out, they had always stated that the punishment was subject to new information. They got the new information, and acted accordingly.

This isn't a court of law. So, questions of double jeopardy don't have any legal weight, like it or not.

My biggest problem is with them suspending him beyond what the newly implemented punishment structure calls for. Its arbitrary as hell. Thats DV folks. Thats what it looks like. Thats what the policy says gets you 6 games. What is the policy (or any policy) worth if you can disregard it. If the policy were 100% discretionary, fine. But its not. Before he got the ax my suggestion was for him to go and beg for a year suspension, but figured it wasnt doable based on the new 6 game rule. Then they go and suspend him beyond that. Believe me, im not crying for the guy, but bigger picture its problematic and its without question an issue the union should be offended by.

.

In comment 11853638 MotownGIANTS said:

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it is about letting a precedent be set that a player can be punished .... and then re-punished because the media, public etc does not like the initial punishment. What Rice did was pure BS. However the precedent that is being set is not a good one. JMO.

Motown,
To my knowledge, the original punishment was going to stand. The video is new information that shows that Rice lied to the NFL. As a result, the NFL levied additional punishment. This is not unprecedented in the NFL. I believe Vick or Pacman Jones or someone else also received additional punishment when they BS'ed the NFL and the NFL found out.

In comment 11853683 MotownGIANTS said:

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than gold digger tendencies.

Also true.

The NFL did say it would adjust accordingly if new info came to light, though I can't speak to the legality of it or with regards to the CBA details.

Blowing past the new domestic violence guidelines is the part that seems unfair to an extent, unless they're considering the new video evidence to be beyond a "basic first offense".

where never "re-punished".

It does essentially amount to double jeopardy. If it were a court of law it would be like getting sentenced to 2 years of probation and then the judge deciding later on to sentence you to a massive fine and life in prison with possibility of parole after seeing more evidence of what he already knew you were guilty of.

In comment 11853692 manh george said:

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This isn't a court of law. So, questions of double jeopardy don't have any legal weight, like it or not.

A vital point.

to dictate policy is dangerous in some cases for sure. This one I'm not so certain. The NFL clearly is not coming completely clean here and their entire handling of this has been one bungle after another.

Goodell needs a good eye stoving. That'll fix his wagon.

I'm pretty sure that's not true. One (or both) of them were hit with additional penalties after they lied to the NFL. I'm pretty sure it was Vick but perhaps it was a different player (maybe Roethlisberger) but I'm quite certain this happened.

In comment 11853719 JonC said:

Quote:

In comment 11853692 manh george said: Quote: This isn't a court of law. So, questions of double jeopardy don't have any legal weight, like it or not. A vital point.

Moreover, this is not a criminal case. Double jeopardy would be if the Atlantic City DA decided to retry and/or levy additional punishment to Rice now. DJ isn't a concept that applies to the NFL's handling of this.

Whether he lied to Goodell and the Ravens in the first place?

Goodell sat down with Ray and Janay. Their lawyer had the tape. If they wanted to see the tape, why didn't they ask Rice's lawyer for it??

I think they cut a deal and after the public outcry, reneged on the 2 week suspension..

If they can find 18,00 emails of the Saints during the Bounty gate, they could have gotten this tape if they wanted..

What did Rice lie about? I thought he told the league and authorities that he did hit her resulting in her being unconscious.

everyone in the world knew he knocked her out, from the beginning. He admitted it. There was zero doubt about what happened.

Now, this 'new' tape comes out and something is so horribly worse that this latest reaction comes out?

Let's get real. He punched her. We always knew he punched her. The league and the Ravens knew he punched her. He admitted he punched her. So now there's a video, and absolutely nothing has changed in our knowledge of what happened.

He's not the first man to have punched a woman. he's not the first NFL player to have punched a woman. Under reaction to begin with. Over reaction now.

and Puhleeze...his first suspension was for carrying an unconscious woman out of an elevator? Believe that, and I've got a bridge to sell you.

They had no legal right to the tape. The tape is part of a criminal investigation by the Atlantic City DA. Bountygate was solely an internal NFL matter.

Rice had a right to the tape because he was being accused of a crime and as such has a right to see evidence against him but that doesn't mean that the NFL can coerce him to hand it over to them.

I do agree Goodell likely forced a new deal on Rice after the video got out, after cutting the first deal "ignoring" the video evidence they didn't ask for in the hopes it would go away.

but this thing stinks to high heaven.

I do not believe for a second that the NFL/Goodell wanted to see the tape. They handed down a 2 game suspension (which was the rule) then upped it once the heat got a little too hot for them.

Did anyone really need to see the video to know what happened? Other than even more public outcry, nothing actually changed from the first accounting of this until now - we just got to see it with our own eyes and it seems even more real.

Lots of bad guys in this scenario.

The problem is that the victim herself corroborated Rice's watered down version to the NFL. What were they supposed to do? Tell her they don't believe her? On what grounds?

Chris Mortenson 2 months ago had outlined what was on the tape. Exactly how it had happened. The NFL has former FBI and Police on it's security staff. If they wanted that tape, they could have gotten it..

It didn't have to be a coercion..Goodell sat down with the both of them. Common sense says that there is another tape and he or his security team should have known that their lawyer had it..

Player's Association attorneys would kick ass. Rice has collective bargaining rights that he paid for. All guaranteed monies due him should be paid. The union can demand as much without condoning domestic violence. Also from the victim's perspective, how does she benefit from eliminating her spouse's income?

Hey I dealt with Teamsters over the years who slapped their ladies around. Some got criminally charged; some did not. We could not fire them for their actions. What's different here?

they then represented him on that basis. Now the video comes out that shows that he lied. Pretty sure the union is more likely to be pissed than supportive at this point.

In comment 11853764 JonC said:

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I do agree Goodell likely forced a new deal on Rice after the video got out, after cutting the first deal "ignoring" the video evidence they didn't ask for in the hopes it would go away.

Jon, I disagree. After hearing all this out, I think the NFL acted appropriately with respect to the tape and went as far as it could, which wasn't far because the tape was tied up in a criminal investigation and unavailable. The original suspension was light but they also acknowledged that.

?Effective immediately, violations of the Personal Conduct Policy regarding assault, battery, domestic violence or sexual assault that involve physical force will be subject to a suspension without pay of six games for a first offense, with consideration given to mitigating factors, as well as a longer suspension when circumstances warrant."

That's from Goodell's letter to the owners in August. The NFL has the latitude to increase the suspension beyond 6 games.

He was released, which Baltimore can do if it wants. No other team will pick him up being this toxic so in reality the suspension is meaningless until a team expresses an interest in him.

In comment 11853776 RetroJint said:

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Player's Association attorneys would kick ass. Rice has collective bargaining rights that he paid for. All guaranteed monies due him should be paid. The union can demand as much without condoning domestic violence. Also from the victim's perspective, how does she benefit from eliminating her spouse's income?

Do you know whether or not Rice hasn't been paid every cent the Ravens owed him?

That's exactly what i believe. This was a deal between the NFL, Rice and the Ravens..ESPN's Lester Munson said a a few times, they know how to get around things to get the tape..They just didn't want to see it because a deal was made and they paraded Janay around with her apologies, posted it on Ravens website and hoped that TMZ would never leak the second part..

nfl is a total joke to me now - along with many other sports leagues. I'd have more respect if they would come out and admit they're hypocrites - e.g., we care nothing about dv or women getting beat - just about making money - which is why goodell is going nowhere. just admit that and I've have more respect. this has been going on for millennium and now all of a sudden they're appalled because it's on tape - really? that's a joke. kind of hard to follow sports anymore with all of the hypocrisy. and certainly like any person, rice is entitled to an appeal for all of the bs hypocrisy of the league. just a total joke to me.

to defend Mr Rice.

Even the TMZ owner said it the NFL could have gotten the tape. if TMZ can "buy" it, you don't think the NFL couldn't "buy" it either??

Or simply told Rice's lawyer, you want a deal, let me see the tape. The NFL had all the leverage..They punted..

The NFL is showing that their disciplinary policies are subject to public whim and outcry and therefore the decisions made by them are completely arbitrary.

And the union, if they don't step up and do their job here, are demonstrating that they have zero credibility in their role as an advocate for their membership.

Mort is part of the media. Just because he was able to obtain the tape illicitly and report it doesn't mean that the NFL could have done the same thing and used it to discipline Rice. Just the opposite - if word got out that the NFL was in possession of privileged information that it had no right to, Rice could have gotten off the hook completely - not to mention the NFL would have been breaking the law or close to it.

It doesn't matter how many former FBI, police, military, Illuminati, whatever the NFL has on its payroll, it just doesn't have the authority to get into the middle of a criminal investigation involving a grand jury whenever it feels like it.

Also, they knew that Rice had the tape or at least had a right to view it as a defendant in a criminal proceeding but that doesn't mean they have a right to force him to turn it over to them.

Look, I understand it's frustrating sometimes but you have to dot I's and cross T's. When you don't, you get outcomes like Casey Anthony, George Zimmerman, OJ, etc.

This is a legally risky situation. The NFL needs to do things by the book and not just buy a videotape, who's source can be impugned in litigation, somewhere. Goodell made a mistake with the length of the first suspension, which he publicly avowed, and imposed a stricter penalty when he was able to see the second tape obtained from a legally-defensible source. He then imposed a harsher punishment, consistent with NFL policy.

This isn't ideal decisionmaking from Goodell but it's a minor footnote to the whole story.

In comment 11853797 GMANinDC said:

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That's exactly what i believe. This was a deal between the NFL, Rice and the Ravens..ESPN's Lester Munson said a a few times, they know how to get around things to get the tape..They just didn't want to see it because a deal was made and they paraded Janay around with her apologies, posted it on Ravens website and hoped that TMZ would never leak the second part..

Sorry, but this is conspiracy theory bullshit. An organization like the NFL doesn't just pin its hopes on someone like TMZ of all entities to play ball.

How the fuck did the DA/Prosecutor/Judge think that the diversionary program fit this crime after watching the video?

In comment 11853840 GMenLTS said:

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How the fuck did the DA/Prosecutor/Judge think that the diversionary program fit this crime after watching the video?

Being rich enough to pay good lawyers makes a hell of a difference in teh legal system

In comment 11853810 GMANinDC said:

Quote:

Even the TMZ owner said it the NFL could have gotten the tape. if TMZ can "buy" it, you don't think the NFL couldn't "buy" it either?? Or simply told Rice's lawyer, you want a deal, let me see the tape. The NFL had all the leverage..They punted..

GMAN,
You continue to not get it. No one is disputing that the NFL had the means to obtain the tape. What I'm saying is that they could not rely on it in a disciplinary proceeding against Rice because it's privileged information that it has no right to. For that same reason, they had no "leverage" to ask Rice for it. If they had, Rice's attorney would have told them to go pound sand and they couldn't do anything about it.

Further, if the NFL went ahead and obtained the tape in some back alley from some crooked hotel employee, who later told someone he sold it to the NFL, they potentially (likely) would have had to throw away their entire case against Rice.

People like Mort and TMZ have no obligation to follow due process against an employee. All they do is get their hands on information and make it public and hide behind first amendment protections. The NFL did not have that option here.

In comment 11853819 Gary from The East End said:

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The NFL is showing that their disciplinary policies are subject to public whim and outcry and therefore the decisions made by them are completely arbitrary. And the union, if they don't step up and do their job here, are demonstrating that they have zero credibility in their role as an advocate for their membership.

^^^^^
I agree with this. What Rice did was reprehensible but the NFL does not look good to me either.

In comment 11853845 Semipro Lineman said:

Quote:

In comment 11853840 GMenLTS said: Quote: How the fuck did the DA/Prosecutor/Judge think that the diversionary program fit this crime after watching the video? Being rich enough to pay good lawyers makes a hell of a difference in teh legal system

I mean, yea, obviously but.. Fuck. Come on people.

In comment 11853819 Gary from The East End said:

Quote:

The NFL is showing that their disciplinary policies are subject to public whim and outcry and therefore the decisions made by them are completely arbitrary. And the union, if they don't step up and do their job here, are demonstrating that they have zero credibility in their role as an advocate for their membership.

This is exactly what I thought when I heard about the new video.

The problem I have with all of this is I think Rice is a POC who deserved a full year suspension from the get go and there is no way to defend him.

Lets face the facts...whether we saw it or not you have to be a little naive to know not what had happened in the elevator. After all, she was unconscious when he was dragging her out.

In comment 11853819 Gary from The East End said:

Quote:

The NFL is showing that their disciplinary policies are subject to public whim and outcry and therefore the decisions made by them are completely arbitrary. And the union, if they don't step up and do their job here, are demonstrating that they have zero credibility in their role as an advocate for their membership.

Gary, how do you know the union didn't do its job? Until this tape came out, the only information they had at their disposal was whatever we all had plus whatever Rice felt like telling them. Do you think it's their job to protect a member who lied to them and put their whole union in this position? Union members have obligations, too, not just rights.

The union will let him choose that route and as everyone stated....take a back-seat on this one.

find it interesting the Union has kept their mouth shut while other people who have screwed up in other ways, killing another person via DWI, other domestic violence (not on tape) are less of a pariah at this point in time.

what also bothers me is how it went from 2 games because we feel that is appropriate to, Oh shit people are pissed, quick new policy. Right, so 6 games 1st offense, then lifetime ban.

video comes out that NFL definitely saw but vehemently denies and then dishes out a ruling of suspended INDEFINITELY...




WHAT HAPPENED TO 6 GAMES FOR FIRST OFFENSES?!?!?!?

I am not condoning or approving, but the jerk session that Goodell and the NFL is trotting out there is a fucking joke. Why hasn't anyone asked them what happened to the 6 game ban for first offenses?

how can that needle dick Goodell back out of that question.

by the way his Nora Noll interview was just BAD imo. he looks terrible in this and his back and forth just made him look worse.

he should definitely be fired for inconsistency, lying and just overall suckitude.

leave it to the NFL owners to "back" him as they are all of the MALE gender who thought sweeping other domestic violence cases under the rug was fine and just having Rice out 2 games was also just.

the dude made $44 MILLION dollars and is a gaping vagina.

In comment 11853840 GMenLTS said:

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How the fuck did the DA/Prosecutor/Judge think that the diversionary program fit this crime after watching the video?

Supposedly the State Senate is asking for a review of the prosecution regarding Rice.

your incorrect about the details of the NFL policy. See my 11:19am post. Also, calling it a "lifetime ban" isn't quite right. Rice can apply for reinstatement.

yeah i later mentioned "indefinite" suspension.

but then what is Goodell's reason for going from 6 to indefinite?

he hasn't said.

Additionally, in the Nora Noll interview Goodell tells her that they didn't need to see the video because they assumed what was on their. then in the exact next question says once they saw the video though they essentially had to amend their ruling.

WTF... what do you think Domestic Violence is!?!?!? hugs and kisses?

i am more pissed off with the fact that Goodell is incompetent and a clown and should step down

1) Goodell had the right and power to change the punishment.

2) It would appear strongly that the 6 month first punishment limit should apply here.

3) Goodell is a liar, a sham and a hypocrite, and the indefinite suspension is his way to pretend that he isn't, which is what liars, shams and hypocrites do.

if Rice and his wife told Goodell that he just pushed her and she hit her head on the railing and thats why she was unconcious...

Now the tape comes out of what actually happened...

I really wouldnt be surprised if Rice and his wife lied to both the Ravens and the the League about what truly happened in the elevator..

MINIMUM 6 games and Goodell has the right to go more than 6 games if he deems the punishment fits...basically Goodell gave him all the power...

I cant stand Goodell at this point...he has a heavy hand for pot smokers and drinkers but other things its light punishment...

He is ruining the game in a lot of ways but again the only way he is fired is if the league starts losing money which it never will..

In comment 11853915 montanagiant said:

Quote:

In comment 11853840 GMenLTS said: Quote: How the fuck did the DA/Prosecutor/Judge think that the diversionary program fit this crime after watching the video? Supposedly the State Senate is asking for a review of the prosecution regarding Rice.

That's Steve Sweeney more than the State Senate itself. Remember the old joke: "What's the most dangerous section of Washington DC? The section between Chuck Schumer and a TV camera." Well that goes double for Sweeney. Even a lot of left of center people don't have a high opinion of him, and he basically keeps his job via patronage and party line voting(not that that's anything unique).

or if his shitty actions cause too much public ire and result in pissed off fans.

if enough pissed off fans the owners can boot him for another puppet twat

In comment 11853845 Semipro Lineman said:

Quote:

In comment 11853840 GMenLTS said: Quote: How the fuck did the DA/Prosecutor/Judge think that the diversionary program fit this crime after watching the video? Being rich enough to pay good lawyers makes a hell of a difference in teh legal system

you are so wrong that its not even funny. He got the same sentence that anyone else would have received under the circumstances. You have a guy without a criminal record and a victim who didn't want to prosecute. it would have made zero sense to prosecute this case as some here are claiming should have been done. It had absolutely nothing to do with money or privilege. In fact if they did prosecute, it would have been because he is rich and famous. In other words his status would have hurt him.

the NFL could not get the video because it was part of an investigation correct?

ok well then why couldnt the NFL get the tape once the Rice's sentence was handed down? Goodell did not punish him right away he waited..so why couldnt he get the video AFTER the sentencing was already done...

In comment 11853915 montanagiant said:

Quote:

In comment 11853840 GMenLTS said: Quote: How the fuck did the DA/Prosecutor/Judge think that the diversionary program fit this crime after watching the video? Supposedly the State Senate is asking for a review of the prosecution regarding Rice.

You guys would be surprised what doesn't get prosecuted.

Unless the league is saying Rice was untruthful in his statements to the commissioners/investigators, I don't see where they have a leg to stand on. It's pure CYA garbage.

I'm still shocked by the reaction to the video. What did people think happened when they saw the first video... that she slipped on a banana peel? I didn't need to see the second video to know that whatever happened in the elevator was fucked up.

In comment 11853782 RB^2 said:

Quote:

In comment 11853764 JonC said: Quote: I do agree Goodell likely forced a new deal on Rice after the video got out, after cutting the first deal "ignoring" the video evidence they didn't ask for in the hopes it would go away. Jon, I disagree. After hearing all this out, I think the NFL acted appropriately with respect to the tape and went as far as it could, which wasn't far because the tape was tied up in a criminal investigation and unavailable. The original suspension was light but they also acknowledged that.

RB, I hear you and do agree it's unlikely the NFL would go to TMZ in any official capacity for the video. But, it seems everyone agreed as to what happened, rendering the video something they could try to sweep under the rug and hope it goes away. Clearly, this didn't happen once said video reached the public eye. At that point, RG felt he had to renege and impose more severe punishment.

The NFL invented instant replay. Why is anyone surprised.

In addition, Rice loses a time out.;-)

that eludes many at BBI that 2 things can happen at once.

Goodell could be a bad Commissioner/acted poorly in this case AND Rice could deserve to have his punishment change for the worse (for him).

In comment 11853751 RB^2 said:

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They had no legal right to the tape. The tape is part of a criminal investigation by the Atlantic City DA. Bountygate was solely an internal NFL matter. Rice had a right to the tape because he was being accused of a crime and as such has a right to see evidence against him but that doesn't mean that the NFL can coerce him to hand it over to them.

They can't coerce him in the sense that they can't go to court to force him to turn it over. But, they absolutely had the right to suspend him until he cooperated with their investigation by turning over the tape.

In comment 11853683 MotownGIANTS said:

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than gold digger tendencies.

what the fuck

In comment 11855302 Sonic Youth said:

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In comment 11853683 MotownGIANTS said: Quote: than gold digger tendencies. what the fuck

I haven't posted on a single Ray Rice thread bc it's just am ugly can of worms and I can keep my opinions to myself. But I will now, bc motowns comment is ignorant, uninformed, and ultimately one of the prevailing attitudes that allows DV to continue, to allow victims to be judged and stigmatized, and hurting future victims by making them less likely to come forward.

I met Rice and Janay a couple times, as I had friends who played for RU. Ray and Janay were high school sweethearts, if she was a gold digger she probably wouldn't have hitched her wagon to an (at the time) undersized 3 star recruit who was lightly recruited but decide to stay in-state at the football powerhouse that is Rutgers.

There's no greater ignorance than having a strong opinion about a topic you are uninformed about...

Janay has only 50% of the attributes needed to get Motown's support. Black, but one too many x chromosomes.

You should take a look at the other link where she first made her statements. Motown's post would look a lot tame..

here you go..
Link - ( New Window )