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Dottino on WFAN

SB : 9/11/2014 11:23 am
On in a couple minutes. I'll transcribe the best I can.
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that tampa 2  
area junc : 9/11/2014 12:19 pm : link
on 3rd and long was disgusting, absolutely disgusting
I don't understand how Moore is the culpret  
UberAlias : 9/11/2014 12:21 pm : link
He had a chance to make a big play and blew it. But are we saying the play design comes down to if Moore doesn't get a sack on this we give up a TD? If Moore was stood up at the line and useless on the play he would not be getting discussed, but because he beats his man but fails to finish, it's his fault. Great logic. He failed to save the day with a sack. But the play was blown because of bad coverage.
The problem with Tampa 2 is that it relies too much on getting sacks  
Mason : 9/11/2014 12:22 pm : link
And it does not take into account mobile quarterbacks. It just assumes that there will be a quick throw attempt, sack or a throw to the sideline. So tacklers have to be quick to ball for underneath stuff.
Meanwhile, slot blitz my ass...  
SB : 9/11/2014 12:22 pm : link
...this was a simple, 4 man pass rush.

also, note that DRC had CJ pretty well covered...  
SB : 9/11/2014 12:26 pm : link
...until it handed him off to Brown. For some reason, Brown was running downfield, towards the sideline, like he wanted CJ behind him. Why?!?
RE: RE: RE: How many times do we have to hear this crap...  
arcarsenal : 9/11/2014 12:26 pm : link
In comment 11856053 Jacobs27 said:
Quote:



Quote:


All the DC can do is put the player in a position to make a play. Moore was in a perfect position to make that a negative play by sacking Stafford and had him dead to rights. Instead he got juked out of his shoes.



Wrong....a DC should also design a scheme that maximizes the talent of his players. So when you have cover guys like DRC and Amukumara sitting in a soft zone covering nobody and leaving Stevie Brown to cover Megatron you are not utilizing your players properly.

For years we've seen guys wide open on 3rd downs because of the soft zone we play on those downs and because of constant miscommunicaitons in our secondary. There is a reason we've been near the bottom in 3rd down conversions for the past few years.

The players keep chaining but Fewell is the one constant.


Weird, we were one of the best 3rd down defenses in football in 2010. He must have changed his defense.

And there's the "soft zone" buzzword again. Which I don't think people actually understand. They just say it because it sounds right.
Uber  
JonC : 9/11/2014 12:26 pm : link
You are correct, Sir.
.  
arcarsenal : 9/11/2014 12:30 pm : link
And yes, ultimately the blown coverage was the reason for the big play. The playcall obviously isn't reliant on Moore sacking the QB to defend theirs.. but when he's that close, he's got to seal the deal.
absolutely, you expect the DE to make that play  
JonC : 9/11/2014 12:33 pm : link
if he fails, you expect the backend to hold up the call integrity.
RE: Billko, 1 game?  
BillKo : 9/11/2014 12:44 pm : link
In comment 11856042 area junc said:
Quote:
no. same shit, different day


Regarding the defense? I disagree......they could be a good unit. Let's see what they do this week.
Rueben Randle Is a Bust  
Bernie : 9/11/2014 12:47 pm : link
3 training camps under his belt and he still makes rookie mistakes. Yes I get that this is a new offense, but by now he should be showing something and he has not. Another in a long line of high draft pick JR busts.
Perhaps it just  
rocco8112 : 9/11/2014 12:48 pm : link
...seems this way because I watch all of the Giant games and much less of other NFL games, but it seems like the Giants have a lot of full on mental error blown coverages that lead to huge plays.

This to me has been a trend since 2010. One thing about that 2010 D, it caused a shit ton of turnovers. That whole team was so odd, the Giants turned it over a ridiculous amount and basically pissed away what could have been a good season. At the same time the D created a lot of TO's. Would be nice if we saw some of that this year.

Good defenses make plays, the second Eli pick for example was a bad decision and throw. That said the Lion DB still had to be on his game to read it and make a play on the ball. The Giants defense has to stop making errors and start making plays.

Call me crazy but I am way more disappointed with the defensive performance this past Monday night than the offense. Hopefully the defense will rebound this week.
rocco  
JonC : 9/11/2014 12:50 pm : link
You're not imagining things, you're noticing trends from the defenses under PF's guidance.

Frequent mental errors, players suggesting they don't understand the details, PF expresses surprise in the media saying he thought he fully taught the players, rinse and repeat. It's been worst with Stevie at FS.
.  
arcarsenal : 9/11/2014 12:55 pm : link
Something like DRC passing off his coverage way too early doesn't seem like a component of an overly "complex" defense, though. That's a simple concept that any DB should understand in a zone coverage. Sometimes football players just make really stupid mistakes. They aren't always the smartest guys in the world.
RE: .  
nygiants16 : 9/11/2014 12:57 pm : link
In comment 11856159 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
Something like DRC passing off his coverage way too early doesn't seem like a component of an overly "complex" defense, though. That's a simple concept that any DB should understand in a zone coverage. Sometimes football players just make really stupid mistakes. They aren't always the smartest guys in the world.


and remember DRC's biggest knock is he can not play in a zone...he is best when he is playing man to man...he gets lost in zones very easily that was his problem in Philly..
.  
arcarsenal : 9/11/2014 12:58 pm : link
In any event. I think anyone who is more worried about the defense than the offense is nuts.

The defense will probably be average at worst. One game against a very explosive Lion offense in their building isn't the end of the world. The offense is way more concerning.

We have defensive talent. Even though we haven't changed systems, guys still have to adjust a little and learn to trust each other and rely on each other. You saw the lack of chemistry between DRC and the safeties as well as Brown's errors.

I don't think the 2014 Giants defense will be even remotely bad. I hate to be the "wait and see" guy but can we give it more than one game? I bet they will play much better Sunday.
RE: RE: Billko, 1 game?  
damdevs : 9/11/2014 1:12 pm : link
In comment 11856133 BillKo said:
Quote:
In comment 11856042 area junc said:


Quote:


no. same shit, different day



Regarding the defense? I disagree......they could be a good unit. Let's see what they do this week.

I think our DC hinders our good unit with his stupid decisions/play calling!
RE: that tampa 2  
damdevs : 9/11/2014 1:30 pm : link
In comment 11856057 area junc said:
Quote:
on 3rd and long was disgusting, absolutely disgusting

If you’re talking about the 3rd and 25 play from our 38 yardline just before the 2 minute warning in the 2nd quarter then you are absolutely correct sir.

I blew a gasket when I saw our alignment for that play. Every LB and DB, except Thurman, was almost 15 yards of the line of scrimmage. We gave up a pass a 13 yard, uncontested I might add, to the 25 to Tate to set up a 42 yard field.

Does PF not value 3 points? WTF is he thinking?

I'm still in disbelief at the stupidity that man possesses!
RE: Thinks Giants will beat Cardinals  
Victor in CT : 9/11/2014 1:31 pm : link
In comment 11855944 SB said:
Quote:
Cardinals have no running threat, and Giants DBs will clean up their act.

Plus, Eli has proven that he can make good decisions when blitzed.

J. Abraham retiring hurts Cardinals. And that's that.



SB, the bigger question is will Fewell the Tool let the DBs do what they are paid for and pressure the receivers. If he is going to stay in that Cover 2 bullshit it won't matter.
I didn't see a whole lot of the CB's playing 4 and 5 yards off.  
Ten Ton Hammer : 9/11/2014 1:37 pm : link
DRC was getting right in Calvin's face.
RE: also, note that DRC had CJ pretty well covered...  
dep026 : 9/11/2014 1:39 pm : link
In comment 11856078 SB said:
Quote:
...until it handed him off to Brown. For some reason, Brown was running downfield, towards the sideline, like he wanted CJ behind him. Why?!?


If its man coverage, why is he passing him off? Me thinks DRC got caught looking at Stafford and lost CJ.
Perry is just trying to keep things fresh  
ghost718 : 9/11/2014 1:41 pm : link
Those damn Seahawks keep mimicking our defense
RE: RE: also, note that DRC had CJ pretty well covered...  
Ten Ton Hammer : 9/11/2014 1:44 pm : link
In comment 11856287 dep026 said:
Quote:
In comment 11856078 SB said:


Quote:


...until it handed him off to Brown. For some reason, Brown was running downfield, towards the sideline, like he wanted CJ behind him. Why?!?



If its man coverage, why is he passing him off? Me thinks DRC got caught looking at Stafford and lost CJ.


Defenses in general are more than just 'Man' or 'Zone'. Sometimes it's both in the same play. A 'Man' look at the snap, and then at a certain yardage you pass off your assignment once he enters the safety's zone of responsibilities.
Matt Stafford avoiding the Giant pass rush  
Jimmy Googs : 9/11/2014 2:04 pm : link
was shocking.

Almost as shocking as the secondary not sticking with their coverage responsibilities.

11 guys on the field...someone make a play please.

RE: RE: How many times do we have to hear this crap...  
dguy901 : 9/11/2014 2:10 pm : link
In comment 11856018 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
In comment 11855968 SB said:


Quote:


...broken plays... failed to execute... In other words, "I called the right plays, the players are the ones that screwed it up!"

Um, if you are calling zone blitzes that put Cullen Jenkins in pass coverage, and get burned, it's not the players' fault.



All the DC can do is put the player in a position to make a play. Moore was in a perfect position to make that a negative play by sacking Stafford and had him dead to rights. Instead he got juked out of his shoes.

Fewell is not DC genius material. Moore beat his man and was in position to sack Stafford and showed some quickness and was able to escape. That completion was not on Moore, he did his job by at the least, hurrying the QB!
RE: that tampa 2  
dguy901 : 9/11/2014 2:12 pm : link
In comment 11856057 area junc said:
Quote:
on 3rd and long was disgusting, absolutely disgusting

That is the DC, Fewell! He is living in the past and doesn't have a mind capable of effectively game-planning.JMHO.
RE: RE: RE: RE: How many times do we have to hear this crap...  
Mason : 9/11/2014 2:13 pm : link
In comment 11856080 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
In comment 11856053 Jacobs27 said:


Quote:





Quote:


All the DC can do is put the player in a position to make a play. Moore was in a perfect position to make that a negative play by sacking Stafford and had him dead to rights. Instead he got juked out of his shoes.



Wrong....a DC should also design a scheme that maximizes the talent of his players. So when you have cover guys like DRC and Amukumara sitting in a soft zone covering nobody and leaving Stevie Brown to cover Megatron you are not utilizing your players properly.

For years we've seen guys wide open on 3rd downs because of the soft zone we play on those downs and because of constant miscommunicaitons in our secondary. There is a reason we've been near the bottom in 3rd down conversions for the past few years.

The players keep chaining but Fewell is the one constant.



Weird, we were one of the best 3rd down defenses in football in 2010. He must have changed his defense.

And there's the "soft zone" buzzword again. Which I don't think people actually understand. They just say it because it sounds right.


When you generate sacks and pressure, Tampa 2 looks great. When you don't it looks like shit.
The only time we ever get real pressure on a QB  
Ten Ton Hammer : 9/11/2014 2:17 pm : link
is when we send a DB or Rolle off the edge.

I don't know if it's talent or design but we haven't been a good pass rushing team at all since JPP's 16.5 sack year.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: How many times do we have to hear this crap...  
Victor in CT : 9/11/2014 2:27 pm : link
In comment 11856392 Mason said:
Quote:
In comment 11856080 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


In comment 11856053 Jacobs27 said:


Quote:





Quote:


All the DC can do is put the player in a position to make a play. Moore was in a perfect position to make that a negative play by sacking Stafford and had him dead to rights. Instead he got juked out of his shoes.



Wrong....a DC should also design a scheme that maximizes the talent of his players. So when you have cover guys like DRC and Amukumara sitting in a soft zone covering nobody and leaving Stevie Brown to cover Megatron you are not utilizing your players properly.

For years we've seen guys wide open on 3rd downs because of the soft zone we play on those downs and because of constant miscommunicaitons in our secondary. There is a reason we've been near the bottom in 3rd down conversions for the past few years.

The players keep chaining but Fewell is the one constant.



Weird, we were one of the best 3rd down defenses in football in 2010. He must have changed his defense.

And there's the "soft zone" buzzword again. Which I don't think people actually understand. They just say it because it sounds right.



When you generate sacks and pressure, Tampa 2 looks great. When you don't it looks like shit.


And the Giants don't get any pressure, yet they continue to use it.
RE: Q: Why take 2 time champion and bring in totally new OC  
Victor in CT : 9/11/2014 2:28 pm : link
In comment 11855925 SB said:
Quote:
...that changes everything?

Dottino: I question why they scrapped whole playbook. KG shouldn't have gone, should have tweaked playbook, not scrap it.


Can't argue that.
Overall the Defense...  
rocco8112 : 9/11/2014 2:50 pm : link
...is without question the stronger unit. This is why I was more disappointed with their performance in week 1.

The offense is going to struggle and its various issues were expected. To me the most positive outcome would be for the Giants to become more of a defense first team that would field a unit that would make some big plays and generate some defensive scores.

There was none of that on Monday night. The defense played like crap. Their brightest moment were when they held firm after the first pick and gave up only three on a short field.

Outside of that they were brutal, giving up two scores on the first two possessions for the Lions. Shitting the bed after the Giants second scoring drive, which incidentally may have been a better looking drive that almost any score drive from last season.

I have seen some stats quoted regarding the Giants run D. This was probably the strongest area for the Defense on the night, but despite this the D was steamrolled on the Lions long TD drive after the Giants scored their second TD. I do not want to hear that they were tired since the offense had a prolonged dive just prior to that.

To sum up the D folded when it counted, started the year on the worst possible note by putting an offensively challenged team in a two TD hole and gave up a slew of first downs on 2nd/3rd and long.

Not a good performance by any stretch.
I'm willing....  
BillKo : 9/11/2014 3:12 pm : link
to chalk up Week 1 as a bad spot.

Road game, tough venue......big revenge game for Detroit. We basically knocked them out last year and they probably were like WTF...how did we lose to that outfit???

The first TD was a flukey play (although they might have ended up scoring anyway). Second TD was just an incredible angle throw by Stafford that probably no other QB can make (he's the only guy who throws it like a baseball).

Other scores were setup by turnovers (although again, they may have scored anyway had we punted).

Actually, last score is most dissapointing because if we stop them and get the ball back, the game gets extended..........

Some good defensive minds here  
area junc : 9/11/2014 3:14 pm : link
100% correct that a tampa 2 (a dying scheme around the league) requires a dominant front 4 - no exceptions. Without, its too easy to beat and every offense in the league has their tampa 2 busters when they know its coming

Collinsworth called it the turkey hole on the tv broadcast - the gap b/w the CB and S. Wide open every time

If u study fewells tenure here, he used T2 a lot his 1st year and played more man and Cover 3 as his DL lost effectiveness, to the point last year we were almost exclusively that.

It appears despite investing heavily in man CBs and still having less than a great front 4, he is reverting to tampa 2 on key downs. I dont get it
One game  
spike : 9/11/2014 3:15 pm : link
and we already miss Will Hill.
Requirements  
area junc : 9/11/2014 3:20 pm : link
Also as a general rule to b effective tampa 2 in the NFL u must fully commit 2 the scheme, bring in the right zone personnel and get the group playing it perfectly.

It is not a defense u want to use once in a while because a less than perfect zone is easy 2 beat, just like on basketball

U want to play T2? Live and breath it

Rant over
looked more like Cover 1 on this play  
JonC : 9/11/2014 3:25 pm : link
.
Cover 1 man under  
JonC : 9/11/2014 3:27 pm : link
me thinks, can't see the LBs though.
now that we  
SBlue46 : 9/11/2014 3:44 pm : link
Have good dbs we should be man to man
this zone sucks
I think Fewell planned on using a lot of the Bison package..  
arcarsenal : 9/11/2014 3:51 pm : link
.. with Rolle, Hill and Brown.. and once Hill was lost, that went down the drain because he doesn't have that 3rd safety now unless Berhe eventually becomes that guy. Demps isn't and Taylor is done. I think he probably wanted to use that package quite a bit and now he can't.. which puts a big dent in our plans defensively.

I'd still love to see the coverages charted out somehow, though. Because I don't think Fewell is running certain coverages quite as often as people here think he is.
From last December...  
arcarsenal : 9/11/2014 3:54 pm : link
Quote:
How the Giants bottled up the league's most feared pass catcher surely had something to do with the nagging knee injury that kept Johnson on the sidelines for 33 of Detroit's 85 offensive snaps. It also helped that Lions quarterback Matthew Stafford misfired on a handful of seemingly straightforward passes.

But the biggest reason the Giants were able to limit Johnson's impact was because they deployed defensive players in an alignment known as their Bison package.

"You have to have some ideas about what you're going to do against him," Giants coach Tom Coughlin said of Johnson, known around the league by his nickname, Megatron. "We did some good things with our defensive structure to try to force the quarterback to not even think about going over there."


Quote:
For most of this season, the Bison package has been all but an afterthought for the Giants. But on Sunday it became their base defense. Safeties Antrel Rolle, Will Hill and Ryan Mundy were on the field for all 85 defensive snaps. Middle linebacker Jon Beason was the only other defender to play on every down.

The value of the Giants' three-safety formation is its flexibility. On any given play, one of the three safeties may operate as an extra linebacker, an additional pass rusher or another factor in the defensive secondary. On Sunday, those myriad options seemed to confuse Stafford, who targeted Johnson just five times.

While cornerback Prince Amukamara shadowed Johnson across the field, the Giants' defense would also drop one of their safeties into coverage over the top to bracket the Lions' receiver.

In the second quarter, the Giants placed a different safety in coverage over Johnson for six straight plays. By switching up their responsibilities from one play to the next, they made it difficult for Stafford to identify how Johnson would be covered before the snap.

"We had some circumstances where we were able to have at least a guy or a guy-and-a-half or someone to cover him over the top," said Coughlin.
Hill's been gone for a while. I'm sure it put a dent on their plans  
Ten Ton Hammer : 9/11/2014 3:57 pm : link
but they've known Detroit was their opponent for, what, months since losing Hill?
Mundy isn't here anymore, either.  
arcarsenal : 9/11/2014 4:00 pm : link
Who is he going to use as the 3rd safety? We only even have 4 right now. Like I said, I think they envision Berhe eventually taking Hill's role.. or hoping he can... but right now, he's obviously too green to be getting snaps at all.

That leaves.. Quintin Demps. I don't know about you, but that's not a dude I want to take someone else off the field for if I don't have to. He's not good.
All you need to know  
Fast Eddie : 9/11/2014 4:10 pm : link
is to see that video of Perry with his backfield around him during the Lion game. His pearls of wisdom were "somebodies just gotta make a play, somebodies just gotta make a play" at the top of his lungs. What a maroon
Yeah.. because I'm sure no DC ever tells his players to make a play...  
arcarsenal : 9/11/2014 4:17 pm : link
Jesus.

Some of the things people criticize this guy for are hilarious.

Next thing you know his sideline attire won't be good enough, either.
You're right about demps  
Ten Ton Hammer : 9/11/2014 4:19 pm : link
he's not a defensive player. pure special teams. but my point was, you knew you had lost Hill. You had a good bit of time to make a plan B.
RE: Yeah.. because I'm sure no DC ever tells his players to make a play...  
Fast Eddie : 9/11/2014 4:22 pm : link
In comment 11856714 arcarsenal said:
Quote:
Jesus.

Some of the things people criticize this guy for are hilarious.

Next thing you know his sideline attire won't be good enough, either.
How about sitting there drawing up some adjustments and explaining such to his guys. He looked like a bad Pop Warner coach
Demps  
BIG FRED : 9/11/2014 4:43 pm : link
was in on that play so they had 3 safeties on the field and 3 corners
RE: RE: Yeah.. because I'm sure no DC ever tells his players to make a play...  
arcarsenal : 9/11/2014 5:02 pm : link
In comment 11856726 Fast Eddie said:
Quote:
In comment 11856714 arcarsenal said:


Quote:


Jesus.

Some of the things people criticize this guy for are hilarious.

Next thing you know his sideline attire won't be good enough, either.

How about sitting there drawing up some adjustments and explaining such to his guys. He looked like a bad Pop Warner coach


You don't think he does any of that? Did you follow him around the entire game to know that all he did was tell his guys they had to make a play? I mean, seriously.. this is a ludicrous thing to be enraged about. Every freaking DC says things like that.
TTH/Fred..  
arcarsenal : 9/11/2014 5:11 pm : link
I'm sure our plan didn't involve the busted coverages and without those, maybe the defense has a more respectable game.

In any event.. if Demps was on the field for that first TD, there you go. I don't know if he missed an assignment or did anything wrong but the difference between Hill and Demps is huge.

We had a really good gameplan against them last December but couldn't use that same gameplan this time because of personnel. So I guess you adjust and do what you can and Perry did. The results weren't quite optimal, clearly.

I just get annoyed at some of the things that people here pick up and run with. One guy says we're always in "soft zones" and then people start talking like we never play any man coverage or everything is Tampa 2.

My point about the Bison is that I think Fewell had initially intended on that being a big part of the defense this year but once he lost Hill, he had to try using Demps there and Demps is a huge downgrade. I think he probably knows he can't trust that look as often as he'd like to.
Blaming Moore has to be the dumbest thing I have ever heard  
oipolloi : 9/11/2014 8:48 pm : link
The guy got knocked down, jumped back up up and lunged at the QB trying to break his rhythm. LT would not have sacked the QB in that situation. Moore did a great job not giving up on the play after he was on the ground and he gets blamed? HFS, that is stupid beyond stupid.

Plus, you can never depend on a sack to stop a play. Even good pass rushing teams only average 3-4 sacks per game.

The misplay was not covering the best offensive player in the game and letting him get 15 yards beyond the coverage.

Dottino is a good guy but some of the stuff he says is so dumb it is unbelievable.
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