There is one man and only one man who is responsible for this mess. Rather than list out all the mistakes I think this article puts it very succinctly.
for Ernie Accorsi in 2007, I think they won those SB's with the players Ernie drafted. Not sure what the answer is, firing Reece, is that the answer? Who do they bring in? Maybe they need better scouts.
Looks at the drafts from 2008-2011 if you need any evidence. Those players should be the core of our team yet most of them are not on the roster and/or out of football entirely.
Unfortunately, I think Coughlin takes the hit this year and and Reese gets to pick a coach. However, I would not be surprised if they clean house entirely if they only win 5 or 6 games.
Pugh rated out as the best rookie right tackle in 2013.. Â
As much as we would like, we don't live in a microwave world. If they're still playing like this in week 11 I'll lead the charge to have the front office and coaching staff replaced but we all knew there would be growing pains.
The last one they fired, Andy Robustelli, presided over six seasons with an aggregate record of 23-62-1. Although John Mara isn't his dad, many of the Duke's principles still prevail. Like it or not, Jerry Reese will almost certainly preside over this rebuilding cycle.
If it's any comfort, he might be forced to toss Marc Ross overboard if the past few draft classes don't produce this year.
between 2007-2012 and only 12 still in the league.
But what the article doesn't say is that 8 more are not in the league due primarily to (guy like Chad Jones, Kenny Phillips, David Wilson, etc.) injury. Only 3 totally flamed out.
Marvin Austin is now a starting DT in Denver. Is his failure as a Giant due to the fact that he was a bad draft pick or his his failure the responsibility if the coaching staff for failing to develop him as Denver has.
Bottom line, if we finish 3-13, 4-12 or so Reese, Coughlin and Eli are all out of here as they should be, in the meantime they're all on the same team and there is no reason not to root for the very best for them all in the here and now.
argue with what this article is saying. To be fair there has been some bad luck with injury that cut short the careers of many picks who looked like they could be a solid to top tier player.
What I find the most odd about Reese is how comfortable he is with seemingly "punting" away certain positions and making almost no investment in them. I mean this with regard to the TE and the LB corps. It is almost criminal how Reese allows these areas of the roster to bottom out. Particularly with TE, the old Gilbride/TC offense was screaming for a real two way TE who could throw a block and be a consistent security throw for Eli. Reese was never able to provide any stability and you do not need a top draft pick o find that type of player.
It is clear right now that the Giants simply do not have the horses to be a top flight team. This could change if some of the "next men" up starting realizing they are starters now and start making some plays. Problem is, they may just not be that good. If that ends up being the case then there is no doubt the Giants need to overhaul the entire personnel department.
sure made some questionable draft picks and FA signings that didn't pan out but the good moves far outweighed the bad.
He deserves 95% of the credit (from a personnel standpoint) for the two recent Superbowls.
Shame on anyone who ever criticized him. Reese is on thin ice!
A good argument can be made for Arcorsi being the architect of the '07 champions. But '11? C'mon. I see only 8 Arcosi draft picks (one being Eli) on the '11 team. A couple of other guys were signed as FA during Arcosi's tenure.
That means about 40 of the 53 guys on the '11 squad were brought in under Reese.
conviniently forgets who was head of scouting and a major part of the decision making process for building that team. I'll give you a hint: his initials are JR.Jerry has been wit this organization for the better part of 2 decades. Thankfully it's not the Giants way to toss him aside after a few rough seasons.
conviniently forgets who was head of scouting and a major part of the decision making process for building that team. I'll give you a hint: his initials are JR.Jerry has been wit this organization for the better part of 2 decades. Thankfully it's not the Giants way to toss him aside after a few rough seasons.
Bingo..I think(could be off) Reese became head of scouting in 2002 or 2003(?)..The drafts improved temendously once EA got help there..
as currently constructed it would be hard to not have some loss of confidence in the ability of Reese as GM.
He has never really had to build a whole roster. He inherited one of the top coaches in the game and a full fledged franchise QB.
Can he build a roster from scratch? Time will tell but the VERY early results are not promising.
Not sure you've thought this through all he way.
Reese has been with the Giants since 1994. He was head of scouting before he was GM. Every player on the 2014 Giants was signed under Reese. Every player on the 2011 Giants was signed under Reese. Every payer on the 2007 Giants was signed under Reese.
Not to mention that every 2007 draft pick was a big key Â
Give Mara a pass and blame Reese? How many Mara's cast votes during the draft? Are these family members more qualified than Jerry Jones? The drafts suck
Jerry Reese's GMing skills have decreased in the last 2 years and his drafting skills have worsened since he became the GM. Where did all that knowledge go? Progressive Altzheimer's? An I-don't-care-anymore attitude? (Sarcasm off). Maybe we should play one more game before we render judgment?
I will be the first to say that Jerry Reese has not batted a thousand. No GM has. The bottom line is that the Giants have won two SBs under his stewardship. The 2007 team is his and not Accorsi's. Accorsi left Reese an average (8 and 8) team. Nobody would have blamed Accorsi if that team went 2 and 14. Reese tweaked a mediocre squad and won a super-bowl. Reese could have drafted better but most of his draft pick were decimated by injuries. Does the names Aaron Ross, Steve Smith, Kenny Phillips, Terrell Thomas, Chad Jones, David Wilson (et cetra) all ring a bell?
How about his numerous free agency hits? Jerry Reese needs to do better but no team in the entire NFL has reached the ultimate goal of super-bowl victories more than the Giants under GM, Jerry Reese. And that fact is incontestable, BBI.
Jerry Reese's GMing skills have decreased in the last 2 years and his drafting skills have worsened since he became the GM. Where did all that knowledge go? Progressive Altzheimer's? An I-don't-care-anymore attitude? (Sarcasm off). Maybe we should play one more game before we render judgment?
Only Ozzie Newsome, the acknowledged best in the business(or was) has had perfect personnel accomplishments(sarcasm off)
Jerry Reese's GMing skills have decreased in the last 2 years and his drafting skills have worsened since he became the GM. Where did all that knowledge go? Progressive Altzheimer's? An I-don't-care-anymore attitude? (Sarcasm off). Maybe we should play one more game before we render judgment?
As I understand it, Marc Ross has (had) more of a voice in recent drafts and they were less Reese than they had been when he first got here.
...the best NYG-drafted players on the roster were selected before he took over from George Young.
Michael Strahan
Tiki Barber
Amani Toomer
Jessie Armstead
Keith Hamilton
Jason Sehorn
Ike Hilliard
To some extent, that's the nature of the business: every GM works with leftovers, and Young's leftovers formed the core of the 2000 NFC champions. In Accorsi's case, the effect was exaggerated by the horrible drafts over which he and Marv Sunderland presided.
In general, Accorsi did better with free agent signings than Reese. He salvaged Kerry Collins and several other key retreads in 1999-2000, and scored the Burress/McKenzie/Pierce trifecta in 2005. And of course, he also engineered the Manning trade. Reese's non-draft acquisitions have shown an uncanny knack for injuring themselves - rather like his draft picks.
Just my opinion but it appears that he enjoys being involved in personnel decision making and IMO it comes across as he and Reese have the type of relationship to where they work together in much of the decision making which dramatically affects the direction of the team. As a result I don' believe he looks at the entire organization objectively enough. Just the fact that it looked like he didn't take adequate time to sit down and have end of years interviews and properly evaluate the entire organization before publically pointing fingers calling the offense broken and being up how Jerrigan had be unused suggests that he views his and Reese performance as being the answer and simply pointing at others as the root problem. At the end of least season Reese and he were the "we" and he simply did not evaluate the front office as objectively and harshly as he did the coaching staff when looking to place blame for the problems.
Yeah I know he used the word "we" a lot in excepting blame but I am looking merely at his actions not the lip service being paid the fans. And I realize it is his team and he has every right to be as involved as he wants to be, and for that matter I can't say honestly if it were my team I would be as involved or more. However that also doesn't mean that he should get a pass from fans for the impact he has on the team.
With the history of the Giants and his fathers role on the team, I am surprised he appears to be eschewing what he father seemed to have learned, and that was putting a good football man in charge and leaving all the football decisions to him (as hard as that was for him in some cases) was a more successful approach to building a winner on the field. Wellington became a truly great owner because he cared about his players, he showed generosity and loyalty to them which went a long way in how players felt about being part of the giant family. He obviously still voiced his opinions but he drew the line at being part of regular the brain trust charged with shaping the team. John Mara appears to be very much in the thick of that process and I think is weakens the organization rather than strengthen it even if he only has the best intentions.
he signed Mitchell prior to '07 and he was key in that defense that dominated in that playoff run. He was ridiculed at the time of the signing. In additon, he signed Cruz in '10, and drafted JPP (extremely controversial pick at the time due to being 15 overall). Without those 2 we don't sniff SB46. Is it Reese's fault their production has gone down? I still think the biggest underlying issue with the OL is coaching. The biggest issue with the Defense - coaching. Somehow TC seems to be getting a major pass on this sight now and everyone is pilling on Reese. Even though Donnell play a good game against NE in the final PS game and followed it up with a nice game in Detroit, we still hear we have no TE. Remains to be seen if that continues, but the narrative hasn't changed - we have no TE.
Just my opinion but it appears that he enjoys being involved in personnel decision making and IMO it comes across as he and Reese have the type of relationship to where they work together in much of the decision making which dramatically affects the direction of the team. As a result I don' believe he looks at the entire organization objectively enough. Just the fact that it looked like he didn't take adequate time to sit down and have end of years interviews and properly evaluate the entire organization before publically pointing fingers calling the offense broken and being up how Jerrigan had be unused suggests that he views his and Reese performance as being the answer and simply pointing at others as the root problem. At the end of least season Reese and he were the "we" and he simply did not evaluate the front office as objectively and harshly as he did the coaching staff when looking to place blame for the problems.
Yeah I know he used the word "we" a lot in excepting blame but I am looking merely at his actions not the lip service being paid the fans. And I realize it is his team and he has every right to be as involved as he wants to be, and for that matter I can't say honestly if it were my team I would be as involved or more. However that also doesn't mean that he should get a pass from fans for the impact he has on the team.
With the history of the Giants and his fathers role on the team, I am surprised he appears to be eschewing what he father seemed to have learned, and that was putting a good football man in charge and leaving all the football decisions to him (as hard as that was for him in some cases) was a more successful approach to building a winner on the field. Wellington became a truly great owner because he cared about his players, he showed generosity and loyalty to them which went a long way in how players felt about being part of the giant family. He obviously still voiced his opinions but he drew the line at being part of regular the brain trust charged with shaping the team. John Mara appears to be very much in the thick of that process and I think is weakens the organization rather than strengthen it even if he only has the best intentions.
Steve not sure I agree entirely on this. Yes, he's outspoken, but usually on non-personnel issues. The only time I've heard him really push the envelope(Jernigan, etc) was rightfully after last year..Otherwise, he usually just responds to media questions without being specific..That's my take anyway
Just my gut feeling on it nothing more. I just can't help but think he has gotten too closely involved in the process and as a result doesn't see the entire picture as objectively than if he were purposeful to set himself apart from it.
Since football minds like Gettlemen have not been replaced and he allows himself and multiple family members cast votes for these players.
Great, we got a Super Bowl. Is anything wrong with missing the playoffs 4 out of 5 years with a franchise QB and an OL which still appears pathetic? How many years are we not allowed to question Mara b/c of the Bowl?
1st rd pick Kenny Phillips - career ending knee injury
2nd rd pick - Steve Smith - career ending knee injury
2nd rd pick - Terrel Thomas - 2 knee injuries career done
3rd rd pick Chad Jones - career ending car accident 0 games
1st rd pick Hakeem Nicks - career altering knee injury
1st rd pick David Wilson - career ending neck injury
This does not take into account The other players who essentially suffered career ending injuries before their initial contracts were over
In a league where you succeed based upon the top level talent, there is not another NFL team who has had to deal with injuries to key position players like this.
What compounds this is you then have to try and replenish this top level skill position talent rather than trying to build up other positions
Outside of Jones, Reese got players at the top ends of drafts.
He has faults as all GMs do
I'm really happy to see a lot of reason chiming in on this thread Â
then again the 1st game I ever went to as a 10 year old people were burning tickets in the parking lot and the infamous "15 years of lousy football and we've had enough" plane flew over, in 1978. So I guess nothing should ever faze me as a fan.
Steve not sure I agree entirely on this. Yes, he's outspoken, but usually on non-personnel issues. The only time I've heard him really push the envelope(Jernigan, etc) was rightfully after last year..Otherwise, he usually just responds to media questions without being specific..That's my take anyway
Mara himself says he scouts some players. Herzlich and many of the BC and ACC players are guys he viewed live. While not outspoken about it, John Mara is not a wallflower in the draft room. The Giants don't draft in a vacuum. Chris Mara runs the scouting department. It is a family business not an investment.
Quote:
The Giants' decision to sign undrafted linebacker Mark Herzlich, a Boston College alum and cancer survivor, was partly influenced by the man atop the organization.
“I suggested it,” admitted co-owner/president/CEO John Mara, a fellow BC graduate who remains connected to his alma mater.
Since football minds like Gettlemen have not been replaced and he allows himself and multiple family members cast votes for these players.
Great, we got a Super Bowl. Is anything wrong with missing the playoffs 4 out of 5 years with a franchise QB and an OL which still appears pathetic? How many years are we not allowed to question Mara b/c of the Bowl?
You mean GREAT WE GOT TWO SBs...Oh, 2010, 10-6 record, no playoffs..Just for accuracy purposes
Since football minds like Gettlemen have not been replaced and he allows himself and multiple family members cast votes for these players.
Great, we got a Super Bowl. Is anything wrong with missing the playoffs 4 out of 5 years with a franchise QB and an OL which still appears pathetic? How many years are we not allowed to question Mara b/c of the Bowl?
You mean GREAT WE GOT TWO SBs...Oh, 2010, 10-6 record, no playoffs..Just for accuracy purposes
No mention of Gettlemen or other lost right? MISSED THAT RIGHT?
Seems like Reese's ability to pick good players went south Â
losing Reese as a scout as well has hurt imv..I cannot answer the Ross question, because frankly, I have no idea..Let's see what happens after the season
I'm also not sure why there's a separation between being a Mara Â
Everyone here seems to respect Dave Gettleman, and probably rightly so, but Chris Mara's last name is Mara, so he can't possibly be good at his job? It's surely nepotism or whatever the right word is?
somebody posted the draft results of several teams the other day and they had similar results as the Giants as to impact players and key contributors. Then you have to factor this in:
Quote:
1st rd pick Kenny Phillips - career ending knee injury
2nd rd pick - Steve Smith - career ending knee injury
2nd rd pick - Terrel Thomas - 2 knee injuries career done
3rd rd pick Chad Jones - career ending car accident 0 games
1st rd pick Hakeem Nicks - career altering knee injury
1st rd pick David Wilson - career ending neck injury
that is 6 high round draft picks who were limited to one to two good seasons AT MOST due to injury.
I don't think people realize that you only have a certain number of picks each draft and a certain amount of holes to fill. reese gets killed for the OL situation, but had he went OL and ignored WR, we'd have seen the same WR's out there Monday that were ineffective as hell.
Resse was neither as great as people have made him out to be, nor as poor as people have, but that isn't fun for fans not to have somebody to tar and feather. Moronic, but apparently fun.
when he hired Marc Ross, who had failed in Philly, to run the GIANTS draft program.
And Ross is still here.
Why?
Reese did do a lot of personal scouting this year along with Chris Mara. Racked up more travel time since 07. So maybe that is why this group looks like they fit are more ready to play. Not sure if it is positive that bosses and execs have to cover lower staff but whatever works.
RE: I'm also not sure why there's a separation between being a Mara Â
Everyone here seems to respect Dave Gettleman, and probably rightly so, but Chris Mara's last name is Mara, so he can't possibly be good at his job? It's surely nepotism or whatever the right word is?
Not saying anyone couldn't be but the problem is that once you cross that line it creates other problems.
It is hard to be properly and evenly objective when assessing all departments when you are part of one.
It is only human nature that people often have a harder time seeing their own failures or weaknesses.
It is harder to fire yourself, therefore key roles are held to different levels of accountability.
As I said in my first post I understand it is his team and he can do as he pleases, and I don't know that I wouldn't be just as involved if it were me. But the more involved he is it is more than fair for fans to point the finger at him as a result.
Wouldn't have improved the running game, pass blocking or allowing ghe receivers more time to get open? A running game doesn't help open up the passing game? The game is won in the trenches and the Giants stunk last year b/c and opening day this year b/c of it.
if things had gone as planned if they had gotten longer careers from Nicks, Smith, and Manningham and didn't have to account for all of them disappearing.
drafts have been horrible under Reese. One of the problems John Mara's dad, Wellington, had back in the late 60's and 70's was being too loyal to guys who did not deserve it and who did not perform. That changed after the '79 flyover and fans burning their seasons tickets and Mara had to go to Pete Rozelle to get George Young.
Now it appears the same is happening although I do think this is the last fling so to speak for Reese. If the Giants miss the playoffs again, I have no doubt he is gone.
I will say this...Nicks was a good pick until either injuries or his ego got in the way. But either he was asleep at the switch or his decision to spend low draft picks on offensive lineman rather than investing high picks as Young did when he rebuilt the Giants' O-line in the late 80's was disastrous and will probably cost him his job.
Clearly, the weight of evidence in terms of lack of talent is obvious to many.
One more thing...i wonder why John Mara does not have a talk with Jernigan saying "Hey, I stuck my neck out for you and now you are sucking again".
that Marvin Austin is now getting praises when the Broncos get their hands on him. I will continue to stress the point, you can bring in the freshest ingredients but it doesn't matter if the chefs in the kitchen aren't skilled enough to use them either.
Austin finding success with Fox and Del Rio doesn't really surprise me. I think player development is crucial and I don't think it is an attribute that every coaching staff is equally skilled.
between 2007-2012 and only 12 still in the league.
But what the article doesn't say is that 8 more are not in the league due primarily to (guy like Chad Jones, Kenny Phillips, David Wilson, etc.) injury. Only 3 totally flamed out.
Marvin Austin is now a starting DT in Denver. Is his failure as a Giant due to the fact that he was a bad draft pick or his his failure the responsibility if the coaching staff for failing to develop him as Denver has.
Bottom line, if we finish 3-13, 4-12 or so Reese, Coughlin and Eli are all out of here as they should be, in the meantime they're all on the same team and there is no reason not to root for the very best for them all in the here and now.
Marvin Austin might be one that needed to hit bottom before he removed his head from his proverbial ass. For his sake I hope will Hill does the same but I'm not holding my breath on that one
Reese is not the exclusive cause of the Giants problems. Â
Even if Reese is terrible, and I'm not saying that he is, it was the responsibility of TC and the rest of the FO to get rid of him. They didn't, so you would have to blame them as well.
On the other hand, I can't give Reese or the Giants credit for drafting Pugh. He was the last decent lineman left. They HAD to draft Pugh and they just lucked out. I have no doubt that if the Giants had had the opportunity, they would have drafted EVERY SINGLE one of the other OTs that were drafted ahead of Pugh instead of taking Pugh.
to many players on Offense that can't catch and can't run the correct routes. Not to mention they can't block. Eli has looked like crap the last two years, but look who he has around him. Randle is like I was wide open, well yeah Randle you were 3 rows up in the stands waving your hand, but that is out of bounds man!
Reese has done a good job with the Def, but horrible at bringing in talent at WR and OL.
as currently constructed it would be hard to not have some loss of confidence in the ability of Reese as GM.
He has never really had to build a whole roster. He inherited one of the top coaches in the game and a full fledged franchise QB.
Can he build a roster from scratch? Time will tell but the VERY early results are not promising.
Not sure you've thought this through all he way.
Reese has been with the Giants since 1994. He was head of scouting before he was GM. Every player on the 2014 Giants was signed under Reese. Every player on the 2011 Giants was signed under Reese. Every payer on the 2007 Giants was signed under Reese.
Perhaps, I am not even sure that removing him or anything like that would be an overall positive. I do think there is a difference though between being the GM, the top guy as opposed to some other role in the personnel process.
to many players on Offense that can't catch and can't run the correct routes. Not to mention they can't block. Eli has looked like crap the last two years, but look who he has around him. Randle is like I was wide open, well yeah Randle you were 3 rows up in the stands waving your hand, but that is out of bounds man!
Reese has done a good job with the Def, but horrible at bringing in talent at WR and OL.
I doubt Tom Brady would have looked any better if he and Eli had traded places.
I don't mind the premise, if it's well argued. But it feels like the author is so big on hyperbole that he fails to actually remember what he just hyperboled earlier in the article. Did the guy who wrote the 2nd half of it read the first half? A few key points:
1) YOU CANNOT REASONABLY POST HOW BAD A GM HAS DONE IN THE DRAFT WITHOUT POSTING A COMPARISON TO OTHER TEAMS/GMS. It's like saying "That baseball player sucks as a hitter, he's not hitting on 66% of his at bats!" The only reasonable comparison is how we're doing compared to other teams. AND as BBB pointed out in another thread, we've also not been picking in the top half of the draft, and certainly not top 10, on a regular basis like Detroit.
2) JR has been as good as anyone in NYG history I can think of at picking WRs. Steve Smith and Hakeem Nicks were the first two WRs to make a pro bowl in NYG since Homer FING Jones. Cruz was a freakin' steal. He gets no credit there?
3) Don't tell me Reese didn't have much to do with the first SB. That's just revisonist history. First, he kept TC which he didn't have to do. Second, he held firm with Diehl at LT when the world (including many here) said that was a mistake and we'd never win a SB with DD at OT. Third, Steve Smith was a clutch player on 3rd down as a rookie. Fourth, he brought in Kawika Mitchell. Should I go on?
4) Don't tell me we haven't have good TEs since he was here. Ballard was surprisingly good. Black Unicorn was good, but he got offered a huge deal. I would agree we seem to have put too much faith in Robinson and Donnell it seems. But, Donnell showed signs of life, who knows.
5) He's made efforts to improve the line -- a bit later than he should have? -- I'd grant him that. But JR certainly saw the mistake and has TRIED to correct it. And when the author criticizes the current line he never mentions Schwartz. The line is not currently composed the way JR wants it, at least 1 key guy is out.
6) He questions securing the like DRC, Thurmon, etc. But, first we all know we had guys running free last year. And second, it's also a way you might help your pass rush by giving them an extra second. Bad showing Monday, but Megatron will make a lot of guys look bad. Let's see how we do going forward before Reese is shot for this move.
7) He talks about losing L Joseph and not about drafting Hannkins? Hankie's a stud.
8) JPP was a killer pick. If he's under-performing, that's not on the GM. Beatty is similar. A bigger question is why guys are not playing up to potential, not if they HAVE the potential because they showed they do. A GM's job is to get the guys who have the potential.
9) As others have said, injuries are not his fault. The "worlds worst hamstring" is just taking pot shots. It sucks, but it happens. Wilson might have been a good fit for this O, actually. Chad Jones, I guess JR should have hired a driver?
JR not above critique. But make your case intelligently and without the BS. He's cherry picking people and facts.
I'll just say this, only to humor a trolll thread for a moment... Â
I think Reese does a good job overall. I always think his plan of attack is pretty solid and that's what you can ask for, it doesn't always work out, but the Giants never seem like they are caught with their pants down. Or that they make a mess out of a ton of situations.
To me if it's more about the actual players being selected it's probably more of a scouting issue. I'd like to see Marc Ross replaced, and see what can happen under different scouting leadership. Reese may select the players, but it's with heavy input from Marc Ross and the crew (and the coaches later).
would say overall, Reese has done a poor job. C-. His drafts between 2008-2012 were pretty bad. A lot of his FAs didn't work out either. Very good draft in 2007, and the top half of the drafts from 2013 and 2014 have shown promise.
But here's who can absolutely save Reese: Nassib. If Nassib is the next QB of the Giants, and is a top ten QB, that will wipe out a lot of Reese's failures. The problem for Reese is that Nassib developing into such a QB is a long shot, despite his very good play this past preseason. It's like betting a huge amount on a 25-1 shot.
Was a very good draft and IMO was one of the main reasons why we won the Super Bowl that year. That was a long time ago now. As for 2011,we got hot at the right time but we were VERY fortunate(nice throw Romo!)to even make the playoffs and one cannot lose sight that we were only 9-7 and we won the last two games to get to 9 wins. The Giants were a mediocre team that season but fortunately played their best football once the playoffs started. On the whole,I don't believe that Reese has done a very good job and he misses on way too many high draft picks and right now we may be the worst team in the NFL. To me, that says it all. Coughlin, most likely,will not be back next year and I am all for really rebuilding with a new GM, coach,staff,and possibly new quarterback depending how this season plays out. Don't forget,Eli's contract is up after 2015. Anyone here thinks we should extend him?
injuries that were suffered by high draft picks for the Giants, along with many of the other players on the roster their isn't more of a questioning regarding the training staff and the players' conditioning.
As mentioned already, I don't understand how Reese can be held responsible for guys like Terrell Thomas, David Wilson, Chad Jones, Steve smith, and Kenny Philips no longer being in the league. Even guys like Marvin Austin, Clint Sintim, Travis Beckham, Jay Alford all suffered career altering injuries that put the Giants in the position where they had to make a tough decision on them.
Its no wonder why the Giants are being overly cautious with Odell Beckham. They clearly rushed David Wilson back too quickly, and I don't think they want to make that mistake again with another 1st round draft pick.
Wilson back too soon. He had a condition of the spine that was not a rest based injury. It was one that was unknown what the impact would be until he took contact. Once he took contact, it was determined that the worst case was a reality.
I agree that the Giants woes are a complicated question..... Â
if it was simply bad drafting the obvious solution would be to fire Marc Ross. However there may be a larger question of whether you agree with Reese's organizational philosophy, his valuing of certain positions over others, etc... I you don't than yes you can make a case for his dismissal.
In the past when the Giants have had a glaring need, Reese has usually been like a laser in fixing it. Case in point is the safety position and signing Antrell Rolle. This year the needs have seemed so many that he was forced to spread out a pretty good chunk of change to solve all of these needs. In doing so he may actually have filled very few.
RE: There is an interesting contrast this year.... Â
In the past when the Giants have had a glaring need, Reese has usually been like a laser in fixing it. Case in point is the safety position and signing Antrell Rolle. This year the needs have seemed so many that he was forced to spread out a pretty good chunk of change to solve all of these needs. In doing so he may actually have filled very few.
Not sure I agree. He brought in several FAs for the OL and drafted Richburg. We shall see how that plays out..
He signed DRC, Thurmond, Demps for the secondary
Signed McClain as a LB and drafted Kennard
Signed Jennings and drafted Williams for RB
Holliday never saw the field
I think he addressed a lot of needs..Naturally, we'll have to see what kind of moves these turned out to be
sure made some questionable draft picks and FA signings that didn't pan out but the good moves far outweighed the bad.
He deserves 95% of the credit (from a personnel standpoint) for the two recent Superbowls.
Shame on anyone who ever criticized him. Reese is on thin ice!
Accorsi was an amazing GM who routinely overpaid marginal players and never won a goddamn thing. Nevermind the fact that he also busted out on several premium picks.
But Reese, who's delivered 2 SBs and put together one of the best drafts in team history needs to go?
Has also put together a string of bad drafts and currently has one of the worst,if no the worst roster in the NFL.How long does he get a pass. It's a what have you done lately for me job. Lately,he's been inadequate.
Draft pass rushers, corners and draft speed. Address other spots, especially the OL in free agency.
Ernie knew he had McNally to rely on and Reese had an OL coach he thought he could count on.
That philosophy has hurt this organization almost as much as it's helped. We have two rings but the toll is becoming steeper with every disappointment.
from the Giants other than being KG's son and going to Syracuse. I never thought of him as a hot commodity at Temple. When he replaced Sullivan that was a headscrather. I know Sullivan wanted to take him but was he that impressive as a video assistant? Was his work with Randle and Jerrigan so impressive that TC thought he could help the TEs? Just strange organizational decisions.
Accorsi had his share of wins, and the Eli trade secures his legacy. But for goodness sake, he missed a HELL of a lot.
The number of picks spent to get a RB and WR that didn't suck was astounding. And lets not forget an early round punter. Here are some EA winners: Sean Bennett, Joe Montgomery, Ron Dayne, Brian Alford, Ron Dixon, William Joseph, Tim Carter, Ike Hilliard (poor Ike), Jeff Hatch, etc. He too had some bad injury luck like any GM, but there was a strange love affair with Big10 skill players for reasons unknown. (Other than that one time, when he was caddying for good Ole Kasey Jones of the Lansing Lugnuts, and he once said...)
Accorsi was routinely crucified here and everywhere when he was GM far worse than Reese is getting now. Somebody above said this right. Reese was never that great ala In Reese we Trust. He made mistakes even during the better years. And, he's not as bad as the Reese Must Go crowd believes. but, Accorsi, for a major part of his career, was vilified like no one else.
I wonder how fans of say Tampa Bay or Jacksonville Â
reading this shit must think how fucking nuts we are
Unsurprising you picked the two franchises with the most fickle fans. I'm real sure they think much about their teams, much less reading giants boards.
talks these days. You can bet your ass, Reese hasn't made one move that he hasn't been involved with. Coughlin is the one thats going to be in trouble, if this isn't fixed.
They've changed the players. At some point, the coaches have to coach them. The players change and the OL performs the same? Its time to look at coaching.
You just asked if Eli Manning was a drug addict in the JPP thread, and I'm the troll? You are the nut worst poster here. I don't care if you were on the internet in 1994. You're just horrible.
There isn't much that I have learned
Through all my foolish years
Except that life keeps runnin' in cycles
First there's laughter, then those tears.
Reese had his UP cycle, perhaps ending when he put that Super Bowl countdown clock in the locker room. His opinion of his abilities may have gone a little bit too far.
Now he's having those tears. But he's a good GM. His next UP cycle might just bring the team back in a couple of years. Especially if he has some cap space room. I think that the lack of any cap between 2012 and 2013 resulted in a lot of forced bad personnel decisions.
I think that he's going to stay. To Mara, he was the GM for two championship teams. That inspires patience and loyalty.
But I hope he doesn't spend any premium draft picks on any players who had significant injuries in college.
with an injury that statement might have merit. When it is 6 to 8 high draft picks with injuries that have left them out of the game or severely limited, it is most definitely a valid observation.
Count me in the group that thinks Marc Ross is the main culprit Â
what it was like to have 1st round busts? You probably do, but you have to go back a long, long time. Or I guess you could say Wilson, but that's not really a draft issue.
It's so weird to hear these harsh criticisms of 3rd and 4th round picks when other teams -- even good teams and teams with really high picks -- on a regular basis.
I'd put Reese's 1st and 2nd round record (controlling for draft position) against just about anybody in the league.
And people really, really overrate the value of picks after the 2nd round. It really is a crapshoot once you get to the 3rd and basically a lottery when you get to the 4th and beyond.
Just like the Giants couldn't replicate the 2007 draft, I'd bet good money that teams like the Seahawks won't continue to mine gold late in the draft. Of course you need those guys to hit, but there's more luck involved in that than people typically recognize.
Even vaunted Seattle:
- James Carpenter (a guard) in the 1st round in 2011. Couldn't hold down a starting spot until this year. Might be good, but would've been getting killed on BBI
- 2nd pick in 2011 was an OL (John Moffit) who didn't play much for them and isn't on the team
- 4th round pick was Kris Durham who you might remember sucking as the WR opposite Calvin Johnson last year
Then in the 5th round they drafted Richard Sherman, top 5 defensive player in football.
Think about that. Richard Sherman was on the board for hours. This really smart front office (and I actually do think they're smart) decided to pick John Moffit and Kris f'ing Durham. Those FO guys probably sit around saying that they were really stupid and lucky. And this is the team with the best recent drafts in the league.
Try pulling up another good team like San Fran or Denver or Green Bay. Remember the opening night game when Green Bay's RT got hurt and their back came in and got completely shat upon? He literally couldn't block at all, and completely blew up the offense. Derrick Sherrod, 1st round pick in 2011.
RE: Count me in the group that thinks Marc Ross is the main culprit Â
Compare the 2003-07 drafts, when Reese ran the draft, to the drafts since 2008 with Ross running the draft. Enormous dropoff.
I agree with you. The pecking order of who will go is...
1. Ross
2. Coughlin/Eli
3. Reese
Now if they got rid of them altogether and started a massive restoration, I guess that will be fine.... but Reese isnt going anywhere until the prior 3 go first. Reese will get to choose his own QB and coach before he is fired. Whether its right or wrong.
Reese needs to go, but if we have a 3-13 type of year and get a very high draft pick, I'm not sure I'd feel confident having him in charge of such a critical draft.
Compare the 2003-07 drafts, when Reese ran the draft, to the drafts since 2008 with Ross running the draft. Enormous dropoff.
Greg,
I agree. I've said that before as well. As soon as he came aboard and ran the drafts as Director of college scouting, our drafts have sucked.
We know Reese can draft. He proved this when EA promoted him to Director of College scouting. Moreover, in 2007, he proved it again when he had to be GM AND do his Director of Scouting job.
Ross got promoted too if I am not mistaken. For what though? I am curious to what Marc Ross has done to get promoted especially since our drafts have sucked since he was hired.
quick to want changes. If it were up to most of the posters on BBI, Tom Coughlin would have been fired at the end of the 2006 season. In hindsight, that looks pretty smart, right? Reese has two SBs under his belt and one not all that long ago. I think you give him time to see if he can reproduce past successes. If we are still having the same discussion 3 years from now, then that is a different story. I think firing a 2X SB winning GM right now would be a pretty dumb move.
another article stuck on the bad luck of the Giants draft picks. It is about useful as writing an article on all the lottery tickets you have purchased over a five year period and pointing out you didn't win because you picked the wrong number.
Since football minds like Gettlemen have not been replaced and he allows himself and multiple family members cast votes for these players.
Great, we got a Super Bowl. Is anything wrong with missing the playoffs 4 out of 5 years with a franchise QB and an OL which still appears pathetic? How many years are we not allowed to question Mara b/c of the Bowl?
You're right. I'd rather that the Giants be in the playoffs every fucking year & never win a SB until hell freezes over than them win a Super Bowl every 5 years. You'd be happier as an Eagles fan.
RE: I'm really happy to see a lot of reason chiming in on this thread Â
then again the 1st game I ever went to as a 10 year old people were burning tickets in the parking lot and the infamous "15 years of lousy football and we've had enough" plane flew over, in 1978. So I guess nothing should ever faze me as a fan.
You have a warped view of Giants history. That plane was a GREAT day in Giants history and was responsible for 4 SB trophies.
Just my gut feeling on it nothing more. I just can't help but think he has gotten too closely involved in the process and as a result doesn't see the entire picture as objectively than if he were purposeful to set himself apart from it.
Not sure what TTH and BB56 are talking about, but Mara explicitly stated after last season that HE was actively involved in who the Giants draft. While I've suspected it for a while, it made me very sad. I have the sense that everything that the Giants gained with George Young's independence has been tossed into the toilet and we are back to the "good old days of the 1970's" when the primary reason for the Giants failures was the fact the Mara family wouldn't let the football people run the team.
Unfortunately, I think Coughlin takes the hit this year and and Reese gets to pick a coach. However, I would not be surprised if they clean house entirely if they only win 5 or 6 games.
If it's any comfort, he might be forced to toss Marc Ross overboard if the past few draft classes don't produce this year.
But what the article doesn't say is that 8 more are not in the league due primarily to (guy like Chad Jones, Kenny Phillips, David Wilson, etc.) injury. Only 3 totally flamed out.
Marvin Austin is now a starting DT in Denver. Is his failure as a Giant due to the fact that he was a bad draft pick or his his failure the responsibility if the coaching staff for failing to develop him as Denver has.
Bottom line, if we finish 3-13, 4-12 or so Reese, Coughlin and Eli are all out of here as they should be, in the meantime they're all on the same team and there is no reason not to root for the very best for them all in the here and now.
He deserves 95% of the credit (from a personnel standpoint) for the two recent Superbowls.
Shame on anyone who ever criticized him. Reese is on thin ice!
What I find the most odd about Reese is how comfortable he is with seemingly "punting" away certain positions and making almost no investment in them. I mean this with regard to the TE and the LB corps. It is almost criminal how Reese allows these areas of the roster to bottom out. Particularly with TE, the old Gilbride/TC offense was screaming for a real two way TE who could throw a block and be a consistent security throw for Eli. Reese was never able to provide any stability and you do not need a top draft pick o find that type of player.
It is clear right now that the Giants simply do not have the horses to be a top flight team. This could change if some of the "next men" up starting realizing they are starters now and start making some plays. Problem is, they may just not be that good. If that ends up being the case then there is no doubt the Giants need to overhaul the entire personnel department.
He deserves 95% of the credit (from a personnel standpoint) for the two recent Superbowls.
Shame on anyone who ever criticized him. Reese is on thin ice!
A good argument can be made for Arcorsi being the architect of the '07 champions. But '11? C'mon. I see only 8 Arcosi draft picks (one being Eli) on the '11 team. A couple of other guys were signed as FA during Arcosi's tenure.
That means about 40 of the 53 guys on the '11 squad were brought in under Reese.
Beyond disingenuous to give credit to Acorsi for building that team.
2011 Giants roster - ( New Window )
Robert Goulet?
He has never really had to build a whole roster. He inherited one of the top coaches in the game and a full fledged franchise QB.
Can he build a roster from scratch? Time will tell but the VERY early results are not promising.
Bingo..I think(could be off) Reese became head of scouting in 2002 or 2003(?)..The drafts improved temendously once EA got help there..
He has never really had to build a whole roster. He inherited one of the top coaches in the game and a full fledged franchise QB.
Can he build a roster from scratch? Time will tell but the VERY early results are not promising.
Not sure you've thought this through all he way.
Reese has been with the Giants since 1994. He was head of scouting before he was GM. Every player on the 2014 Giants was signed under Reese. Every player on the 2011 Giants was signed under Reese. Every payer on the 2007 Giants was signed under Reese.
How about his numerous free agency hits? Jerry Reese needs to do better but no team in the entire NFL has reached the ultimate goal of super-bowl victories more than the Giants under GM, Jerry Reese. And that fact is incontestable, BBI.
Only Ozzie Newsome, the acknowledged best in the business(or was) has had perfect personnel accomplishments(sarcasm off)
As I understand it, Marc Ross has (had) more of a voice in recent drafts and they were less Reese than they had been when he first got here.
Michael Strahan
Tiki Barber
Amani Toomer
Jessie Armstead
Keith Hamilton
Jason Sehorn
Ike Hilliard
To some extent, that's the nature of the business: every GM works with leftovers, and Young's leftovers formed the core of the 2000 NFC champions. In Accorsi's case, the effect was exaggerated by the horrible drafts over which he and Marv Sunderland presided.
In general, Accorsi did better with free agent signings than Reese. He salvaged Kerry Collins and several other key retreads in 1999-2000, and scored the Burress/McKenzie/Pierce trifecta in 2005. And of course, he also engineered the Manning trade. Reese's non-draft acquisitions have shown an uncanny knack for injuring themselves - rather like his draft picks.
When there's adversity: "These guys don't know what the fuck they're doing."
Yeah I know he used the word "we" a lot in excepting blame but I am looking merely at his actions not the lip service being paid the fans. And I realize it is his team and he has every right to be as involved as he wants to be, and for that matter I can't say honestly if it were my team I would be as involved or more. However that also doesn't mean that he should get a pass from fans for the impact he has on the team.
With the history of the Giants and his fathers role on the team, I am surprised he appears to be eschewing what he father seemed to have learned, and that was putting a good football man in charge and leaving all the football decisions to him (as hard as that was for him in some cases) was a more successful approach to building a winner on the field. Wellington became a truly great owner because he cared about his players, he showed generosity and loyalty to them which went a long way in how players felt about being part of the giant family. He obviously still voiced his opinions but he drew the line at being part of regular the brain trust charged with shaping the team. John Mara appears to be very much in the thick of that process and I think is weakens the organization rather than strengthen it even if he only has the best intentions.
Yeah I know he used the word "we" a lot in excepting blame but I am looking merely at his actions not the lip service being paid the fans. And I realize it is his team and he has every right to be as involved as he wants to be, and for that matter I can't say honestly if it were my team I would be as involved or more. However that also doesn't mean that he should get a pass from fans for the impact he has on the team.
With the history of the Giants and his fathers role on the team, I am surprised he appears to be eschewing what he father seemed to have learned, and that was putting a good football man in charge and leaving all the football decisions to him (as hard as that was for him in some cases) was a more successful approach to building a winner on the field. Wellington became a truly great owner because he cared about his players, he showed generosity and loyalty to them which went a long way in how players felt about being part of the giant family. He obviously still voiced his opinions but he drew the line at being part of regular the brain trust charged with shaping the team. John Mara appears to be very much in the thick of that process and I think is weakens the organization rather than strengthen it even if he only has the best intentions.
Steve not sure I agree entirely on this. Yes, he's outspoken, but usually on non-personnel issues. The only time I've heard him really push the envelope(Jernigan, etc) was rightfully after last year..Otherwise, he usually just responds to media questions without being specific..That's my take anyway
Reese, Coughlin, and Mara have always said they make organizational decisions as a unit. This goes back years.
Great, we got a Super Bowl. Is anything wrong with missing the playoffs 4 out of 5 years with a franchise QB and an OL which still appears pathetic? How many years are we not allowed to question Mara b/c of the Bowl?
2nd rd pick - Steve Smith - career ending knee injury
2nd rd pick - Terrel Thomas - 2 knee injuries career done
3rd rd pick Chad Jones - career ending car accident 0 games
1st rd pick Hakeem Nicks - career altering knee injury
1st rd pick David Wilson - career ending neck injury
This does not take into account The other players who essentially suffered career ending injuries before their initial contracts were over
In a league where you succeed based upon the top level talent, there is not another NFL team who has had to deal with injuries to key position players like this.
What compounds this is you then have to try and replenish this top level skill position talent rather than trying to build up other positions
Outside of Jones, Reese got players at the top ends of drafts.
He has faults as all GMs do
Steve not sure I agree entirely on this. Yes, he's outspoken, but usually on non-personnel issues. The only time I've heard him really push the envelope(Jernigan, etc) was rightfully after last year..Otherwise, he usually just responds to media questions without being specific..That's my take anyway
Mara himself says he scouts some players. Herzlich and many of the BC and ACC players are guys he viewed live. While not outspoken about it, John Mara is not a wallflower in the draft room. The Giants don't draft in a vacuum. Chris Mara runs the scouting department. It is a family business not an investment.
“I suggested it,” admitted co-owner/president/CEO John Mara, a fellow BC graduate who remains connected to his alma mater.
Great, we got a Super Bowl. Is anything wrong with missing the playoffs 4 out of 5 years with a franchise QB and an OL which still appears pathetic? How many years are we not allowed to question Mara b/c of the Bowl?
You mean GREAT WE GOT TWO SBs...Oh, 2010, 10-6 record, no playoffs..Just for accuracy purposes
As an UDFA, Herzlich has done really well. If he was a 3rd rounder, not so great.
Quote:
Since football minds like Gettlemen have not been replaced and he allows himself and multiple family members cast votes for these players.
Great, we got a Super Bowl. Is anything wrong with missing the playoffs 4 out of 5 years with a franchise QB and an OL which still appears pathetic? How many years are we not allowed to question Mara b/c of the Bowl?
You mean GREAT WE GOT TWO SBs...Oh, 2010, 10-6 record, no playoffs..Just for accuracy purposes
No mention of Gettlemen or other lost right? MISSED THAT RIGHT?
And Ross is still here.
Why?
Everyone here seems to respect Dave Gettleman, and probably rightly so, but Chris Mara's last name is Mara, so he can't possibly be good at his job? It's surely nepotism or whatever the right word is?
Nothing wrong in the draft room. Seriously?
2nd rd pick - Steve Smith - career ending knee injury
2nd rd pick - Terrel Thomas - 2 knee injuries career done
3rd rd pick Chad Jones - career ending car accident 0 games
1st rd pick Hakeem Nicks - career altering knee injury
1st rd pick David Wilson - career ending neck injury
that is 6 high round draft picks who were limited to one to two good seasons AT MOST due to injury.
I don't think people realize that you only have a certain number of picks each draft and a certain amount of holes to fill. reese gets killed for the OL situation, but had he went OL and ignored WR, we'd have seen the same WR's out there Monday that were ineffective as hell.
Resse was neither as great as people have made him out to be, nor as poor as people have, but that isn't fun for fans not to have somebody to tar and feather. Moronic, but apparently fun.
And Ross is still here.
Why?
Reese did do a lot of personal scouting this year along with Chris Mara. Racked up more travel time since 07. So maybe that is why this group looks like they fit are more ready to play. Not sure if it is positive that bosses and execs have to cover lower staff but whatever works.
Everyone here seems to respect Dave Gettleman, and probably rightly so, but Chris Mara's last name is Mara, so he can't possibly be good at his job? It's surely nepotism or whatever the right word is?
Not saying anyone couldn't be but the problem is that once you cross that line it creates other problems.
It is hard to be properly and evenly objective when assessing all departments when you are part of one.
It is only human nature that people often have a harder time seeing their own failures or weaknesses.
It is harder to fire yourself, therefore key roles are held to different levels of accountability.
As I said in my first post I understand it is his team and he can do as he pleases, and I don't know that I wouldn't be just as involved if it were me. But the more involved he is it is more than fair for fans to point the finger at him as a result.
And if Snee hadn't had to retire early.
Now it appears the same is happening although I do think this is the last fling so to speak for Reese. If the Giants miss the playoffs again, I have no doubt he is gone.
I will say this...Nicks was a good pick until either injuries or his ego got in the way. But either he was asleep at the switch or his decision to spend low draft picks on offensive lineman rather than investing high picks as Young did when he rebuilt the Giants' O-line in the late 80's was disastrous and will probably cost him his job.
Clearly, the weight of evidence in terms of lack of talent is obvious to many.
One more thing...i wonder why John Mara does not have a talk with Jernigan saying "Hey, I stuck my neck out for you and now you are sucking again".
Austin finding success with Fox and Del Rio doesn't really surprise me. I think player development is crucial and I don't think it is an attribute that every coaching staff is equally skilled.
But what the article doesn't say is that 8 more are not in the league due primarily to (guy like Chad Jones, Kenny Phillips, David Wilson, etc.) injury. Only 3 totally flamed out.
Marvin Austin is now a starting DT in Denver. Is his failure as a Giant due to the fact that he was a bad draft pick or his his failure the responsibility if the coaching staff for failing to develop him as Denver has.
Bottom line, if we finish 3-13, 4-12 or so Reese, Coughlin and Eli are all out of here as they should be, in the meantime they're all on the same team and there is no reason not to root for the very best for them all in the here and now.
Marvin Austin might be one that needed to hit bottom before he removed his head from his proverbial ass. For his sake I hope will Hill does the same but I'm not holding my breath on that one
On the other hand, I can't give Reese or the Giants credit for drafting Pugh. He was the last decent lineman left. They HAD to draft Pugh and they just lucked out. I have no doubt that if the Giants had had the opportunity, they would have drafted EVERY SINGLE one of the other OTs that were drafted ahead of Pugh instead of taking Pugh.
Reese has done a good job with the Def, but horrible at bringing in talent at WR and OL.
Quote:
as currently constructed it would be hard to not have some loss of confidence in the ability of Reese as GM.
He has never really had to build a whole roster. He inherited one of the top coaches in the game and a full fledged franchise QB.
Can he build a roster from scratch? Time will tell but the VERY early results are not promising.
Not sure you've thought this through all he way.
Reese has been with the Giants since 1994. He was head of scouting before he was GM. Every player on the 2014 Giants was signed under Reese. Every player on the 2011 Giants was signed under Reese. Every payer on the 2007 Giants was signed under Reese.
Perhaps, I am not even sure that removing him or anything like that would be an overall positive. I do think there is a difference though between being the GM, the top guy as opposed to some other role in the personnel process.
I assume that the buck stops with the GM.
Reese has done a good job with the Def, but horrible at bringing in talent at WR and OL.
I doubt Tom Brady would have looked any better if he and Eli had traded places.
1) YOU CANNOT REASONABLY POST HOW BAD A GM HAS DONE IN THE DRAFT WITHOUT POSTING A COMPARISON TO OTHER TEAMS/GMS. It's like saying "That baseball player sucks as a hitter, he's not hitting on 66% of his at bats!" The only reasonable comparison is how we're doing compared to other teams. AND as BBB pointed out in another thread, we've also not been picking in the top half of the draft, and certainly not top 10, on a regular basis like Detroit.
2) JR has been as good as anyone in NYG history I can think of at picking WRs. Steve Smith and Hakeem Nicks were the first two WRs to make a pro bowl in NYG since Homer FING Jones. Cruz was a freakin' steal. He gets no credit there?
3) Don't tell me Reese didn't have much to do with the first SB. That's just revisonist history. First, he kept TC which he didn't have to do. Second, he held firm with Diehl at LT when the world (including many here) said that was a mistake and we'd never win a SB with DD at OT. Third, Steve Smith was a clutch player on 3rd down as a rookie. Fourth, he brought in Kawika Mitchell. Should I go on?
4) Don't tell me we haven't have good TEs since he was here. Ballard was surprisingly good. Black Unicorn was good, but he got offered a huge deal. I would agree we seem to have put too much faith in Robinson and Donnell it seems. But, Donnell showed signs of life, who knows.
5) He's made efforts to improve the line -- a bit later than he should have? -- I'd grant him that. But JR certainly saw the mistake and has TRIED to correct it. And when the author criticizes the current line he never mentions Schwartz. The line is not currently composed the way JR wants it, at least 1 key guy is out.
6) He questions securing the like DRC, Thurmon, etc. But, first we all know we had guys running free last year. And second, it's also a way you might help your pass rush by giving them an extra second. Bad showing Monday, but Megatron will make a lot of guys look bad. Let's see how we do going forward before Reese is shot for this move.
7) He talks about losing L Joseph and not about drafting Hannkins? Hankie's a stud.
8) JPP was a killer pick. If he's under-performing, that's not on the GM. Beatty is similar. A bigger question is why guys are not playing up to potential, not if they HAVE the potential because they showed they do. A GM's job is to get the guys who have the potential.
9) As others have said, injuries are not his fault. The "worlds worst hamstring" is just taking pot shots. It sucks, but it happens. Wilson might have been a good fit for this O, actually. Chad Jones, I guess JR should have hired a driver?
JR not above critique. But make your case intelligently and without the BS. He's cherry picking people and facts.
To me if it's more about the actual players being selected it's probably more of a scouting issue. I'd like to see Marc Ross replaced, and see what can happen under different scouting leadership. Reese may select the players, but it's with heavy input from Marc Ross and the crew (and the coaches later).
But here's who can absolutely save Reese: Nassib. If Nassib is the next QB of the Giants, and is a top ten QB, that will wipe out a lot of Reese's failures. The problem for Reese is that Nassib developing into such a QB is a long shot, despite his very good play this past preseason. It's like betting a huge amount on a 25-1 shot.
It wont happen because of Coughlin's age, but moving forwards I would rather Coughlin remain part of this organization than Reese.
BB56, I had thought of that put two things.
I don't believe anyone can do well holding both jobs at the same time.
Coughlin understands this team and it's needs likely better than anyone, so who better to make the best decisions to best turn it around.
He is a great football mind and tireless worker.
Like many great football men he would still need a cap specialist to work with him.
As mentioned already, I don't understand how Reese can be held responsible for guys like Terrell Thomas, David Wilson, Chad Jones, Steve smith, and Kenny Philips no longer being in the league. Even guys like Marvin Austin, Clint Sintim, Travis Beckham, Jay Alford all suffered career altering injuries that put the Giants in the position where they had to make a tough decision on them.
Its no wonder why the Giants are being overly cautious with Odell Beckham. They clearly rushed David Wilson back too quickly, and I don't think they want to make that mistake again with another 1st round draft pick.
Quote:
TC's general managership was not very productive in Jax
BB56, I had thought of that put two things.
I don't believe anyone can do well holding both jobs at the same time.
Coughlin understands this team and it's needs likely better than anyone, so who better to make the best decisions to best turn it around.
He is a great football mind and tireless worker.
Sounds reasonable
Not sure I agree. He brought in several FAs for the OL and drafted Richburg. We shall see how that plays out..
He signed DRC, Thurmond, Demps for the secondary
Signed McClain as a LB and drafted Kennard
Signed Jennings and drafted Williams for RB
Holliday never saw the field
I think he addressed a lot of needs..Naturally, we'll have to see what kind of moves these turned out to be
He deserves 95% of the credit (from a personnel standpoint) for the two recent Superbowls.
Shame on anyone who ever criticized him. Reese is on thin ice!
Accorsi was an amazing GM who routinely overpaid marginal players and never won a goddamn thing. Nevermind the fact that he also busted out on several premium picks.
But Reese, who's delivered 2 SBs and put together one of the best drafts in team history needs to go?
Holy shit. This place is insufferable sometimes.
Now, we have the shittiest roster in the league. There really is just black and white here, isn't there?
Now, we have the shittiest roster in the league. There really is just black and white here, isn't there?
Yup
Draft pass rushers, corners and draft speed. Address other spots, especially the OL in free agency.
Ernie knew he had McNally to rely on and Reese had an OL coach he thought he could count on.
That philosophy has hurt this organization almost as much as it's helped. We have two rings but the toll is becoming steeper with every disappointment.
The number of picks spent to get a RB and WR that didn't suck was astounding. And lets not forget an early round punter. Here are some EA winners: Sean Bennett, Joe Montgomery, Ron Dayne, Brian Alford, Ron Dixon, William Joseph, Tim Carter, Ike Hilliard (poor Ike), Jeff Hatch, etc. He too had some bad injury luck like any GM, but there was a strange love affair with Big10 skill players for reasons unknown. (Other than that one time, when he was caddying for good Ole Kasey Jones of the Lansing Lugnuts, and he once said...)
Unsurprising you picked the two franchises with the most fickle fans. I'm real sure they think much about their teams, much less reading giants boards.
They've changed the players. At some point, the coaches have to coach them. The players change and the OL performs the same? Its time to look at coaching.
You just asked if Eli Manning was a drug addict in the JPP thread, and I'm the troll? You are the nut worst poster here. I don't care if you were on the internet in 1994. You're just horrible.
Not if you look at the intelligence of the people making those posts.
Through all my foolish years
Except that life keeps runnin' in cycles
First there's laughter, then those tears.
Reese had his UP cycle, perhaps ending when he put that Super Bowl countdown clock in the locker room. His opinion of his abilities may have gone a little bit too far.
Now he's having those tears. But he's a good GM. His next UP cycle might just bring the team back in a couple of years. Especially if he has some cap space room. I think that the lack of any cap between 2012 and 2013 resulted in a lot of forced bad personnel decisions.
I think that he's going to stay. To Mara, he was the GM for two championship teams. That inspires patience and loyalty.
But I hope he doesn't spend any premium draft picks on any players who had significant injuries in college.
It's so weird to hear these harsh criticisms of 3rd and 4th round picks when other teams -- even good teams and teams with really high picks -- on a regular basis.
I'd put Reese's 1st and 2nd round record (controlling for draft position) against just about anybody in the league.
And people really, really overrate the value of picks after the 2nd round. It really is a crapshoot once you get to the 3rd and basically a lottery when you get to the 4th and beyond.
Just like the Giants couldn't replicate the 2007 draft, I'd bet good money that teams like the Seahawks won't continue to mine gold late in the draft. Of course you need those guys to hit, but there's more luck involved in that than people typically recognize.
Even vaunted Seattle:
- James Carpenter (a guard) in the 1st round in 2011. Couldn't hold down a starting spot until this year. Might be good, but would've been getting killed on BBI
- 2nd pick in 2011 was an OL (John Moffit) who didn't play much for them and isn't on the team
- 4th round pick was Kris Durham who you might remember sucking as the WR opposite Calvin Johnson last year
Then in the 5th round they drafted Richard Sherman, top 5 defensive player in football.
Think about that. Richard Sherman was on the board for hours. This really smart front office (and I actually do think they're smart) decided to pick John Moffit and Kris f'ing Durham. Those FO guys probably sit around saying that they were really stupid and lucky. And this is the team with the best recent drafts in the league.
Try pulling up another good team like San Fran or Denver or Green Bay. Remember the opening night game when Green Bay's RT got hurt and their back came in and got completely shat upon? He literally couldn't block at all, and completely blew up the offense. Derrick Sherrod, 1st round pick in 2011.
I agree with you. The pecking order of who will go is...
1. Ross
2. Coughlin/Eli
3. Reese
Now if they got rid of them altogether and started a massive restoration, I guess that will be fine.... but Reese isnt going anywhere until the prior 3 go first. Reese will get to choose his own QB and coach before he is fired. Whether its right or wrong.
We have too many holes to fill and it can't all be done in 1 year.
Greg,
I agree. I've said that before as well. As soon as he came aboard and ran the drafts as Director of college scouting, our drafts have sucked.
We know Reese can draft. He proved this when EA promoted him to Director of College scouting. Moreover, in 2007, he proved it again when he had to be GM AND do his Director of Scouting job.
Ross got promoted too if I am not mistaken. For what though? I am curious to what Marc Ross has done to get promoted especially since our drafts have sucked since he was hired.
Great, we got a Super Bowl. Is anything wrong with missing the playoffs 4 out of 5 years with a franchise QB and an OL which still appears pathetic? How many years are we not allowed to question Mara b/c of the Bowl?
You're right. I'd rather that the Giants be in the playoffs every fucking year & never win a SB until hell freezes over than them win a Super Bowl every 5 years. You'd be happier as an Eagles fan.
You have a warped view of Giants history. That plane was a GREAT day in Giants history and was responsible for 4 SB trophies.
Not sure what TTH and BB56 are talking about, but Mara explicitly stated after last season that HE was actively involved in who the Giants draft. While I've suspected it for a while, it made me very sad. I have the sense that everything that the Giants gained with George Young's independence has been tossed into the toilet and we are back to the "good old days of the 1970's" when the primary reason for the Giants failures was the fact the Mara family wouldn't let the football people run the team.