"It’s completely unacceptable to complain about the number of targets thrown your way after dropping two passes. But to then complain about the number of targets, then drop three after the complaint? That’s pathetic."
would you run 27 times when you are averaging less than 3 yards per carry AND trailing for almost 3 quarters. Why would you even have Herzlich in the game at that point. He is what he is and that's a pretty good special teamer but AZ is not a power running team and surely one would have thought that a 5th DB or even a quicker LB like Paysinger would have been more appropriate?
I think it was meant for who was running the slightly deeper route on the same trajectory (either Randal or JJ). I think Cruz interfered with a ball targeted for a different receiver, and I think he figured it out afterwards…which is why he looked so frustrated with himself.
would you run 27 times when you are averaging less than 3 yards per carry AND trailing for almost 3 quarters. Why would you even have Herzlich in the game at that point. He is what he is and that's a pretty good special teamer but AZ is not a power running team and surely one would have thought that a 5th DB or even a quicker LB like Paysinger would have been more appropriate?
I don't think they had a choice. You have to stay balanced. If you put Arizona in a position where they could just pin their ears back Eli would've gotten battered.
We need speed and the only one on the roster that can bring it on the outside is Beckham. Lets be careful with him but if he can be back for week 5 or 6 it should help, rookie or not.
This stuff about balance is utter nonsense. Eli got hit twice in 36 attempts today. They weren't even getting close enough to breathe on him. The Giants would have been better served on half those runs just throwing the ball deep down the field hoping somebody makes a catch or the defense gets a PI call because the runs were nothing more useful than an incompletion!
This stuff about balance is utter nonsense. Eli got hit twice in 36 attempts today. They weren't even getting close enough to breathe on him. The Giants would have been better served on half those runs just throwing the ball deep down the field hoping somebody makes a catch or the defense gets a PI call because the runs were nothing more useful than an incompletion!
The runs put them in third and manageable situations. Which they actually converted.
would you run 27 times when you are averaging less than 3 yards per carry AND trailing for almost 3 quarters. Why would you even have Herzlich in the game at that point. He is what he is and that's a pretty good special teamer but AZ is not a power running team and surely one would have thought that a 5th DB or even a quicker LB like Paysinger would have been more appropriate?
I thought this as well. Once they were down to Herzlich, why didn't they go 3 safeties? Couldn't be worse than what they were running out there a LB.
This stuff about balance is utter nonsense. Eli got hit twice in 36 attempts today. They weren't even getting close enough to breathe on him. The Giants would have been better served on half those runs just throwing the ball deep down the field hoping somebody makes a catch or the defense gets a PI call because the runs were nothing more useful than an incompletion!
The runs put them in third and manageable situations. Which they actually converted.
I dont think that was true in the 2nd half. Seems like when they ran on 1st and 2nd down it resulted in 3rd and long.
and they were selling out for the run...if you switch gears, they have their ears pinned back, and I assure you, Eli would've gotten hit a lot more than 3 times.
Was just breaking down the rushing numbers and the 81 yards on 27 carries actually really flatters the run game. That includes a 5-yard scramble by Eli which is no big deal; the bigger deal is that Jennings best run - 13 yards - came with 27 seconds left in the game on a draw. His only other 10 yard run came on the fateful drive he fumbled on; in fact on their first 23 runs of the game over 3 1/2 quarters the Giants had 50 yards, barely two a pop. What a waste of offensive plays.
because you have to keep working at it or you never will develop a physical identity. You can't just give up the run or you have ZERO toughness to your team. They have had the unfortunate luck of playing against two monster DLs the past two weeks against the run.
The other reason? If Eli has to drop back 50 times a game, he'll never survive the season.
Didn't see the game. Is Connor about right when he days, "Two of which would have been touchdowns"?
The first drop right before the punt return, it would have been a huge gain. Cruz's defender jumped the route and missed. He would have had a huge chunk down the sideline with only one defender on the sideline running with a different WR. I cant say about pursuit though. It would have definitely put us close to FG range though.
Eric: I respectfully disagree. The objective is to win the game; who cares how you do it. What I would be concerned about is that if there has been a blind spot in the Coughlin era its that so much of the team's approach has been almost ideological. Coughlin has a philosophy as to how the game should be played and G-D it all that's what we are going to do. Another famous coach once said the key to coaching is to figure out what you do well and maximize the times you do (and conversely figure out what you don't do well and minimize that!) The fact is that Eli was barely breathed on throwing 36 times why would he get killed if he threw 50.Bottom line this was a very frustrating loss because you felt like we really just gave it away.
but I honestly don't believe it's the run/pass ratio that had anything to do with it. It was working well enough to get us the lead. It was the special teams blunders, the Cruz dropped passes, and finally Jennings' fumble that was the nail in the coffin.
Bottom line is they had the lead doing what they were doing and looked as good offensively as we had seen them all calendar year.
I understand completely what you are saying, but I also look at a team's development of an identity over a 16-game season. If you want to be a tough, physical team, you have to develop that. And the only way you do that is by keep plugging until it comes together.
I understand completely what you are saying, but I also look at a team's development of an identity over a 16-game season. If you want to be a tough, physical team, you have to develop that. And the only way you do that is by keep plugging until it comes together.
They should have abandoned it in the 4th when it was 14-13. Those two runs up the middle by Williams were just mind numbling awful. Eli was hot all game. Two bad runs, a drop, punt return, fumble, game over.
This stuff about balance is utter nonsense. Eli got hit twice in 36 attempts today. They weren't even getting close enough to breathe on him. The Giants would have been better served on half those runs just throwing the ball deep down the field hoping somebody makes a catch or the defense gets a PI call because the runs were nothing more useful than an incompletion!
This is football 101 stuff. You have to make them respect the run. It's easy to armchair this and look at yards per play pass vs run, but you completely discount that the pass is opened up because the Giants showed commitment to the ground game. The Cardinals were not going to drop 7 or 8 with the Giants constantly probing.
the turnovers were killers. Even the punt return you can recover from. Fumbling the kickoff and then an unforced fumble on the +15 the next drive? that was the game. Not to mention the early pick when we were in FG range. This team is nowhere near good enough to have a prayer of overcoming that
Eric: I also see what you are saying, but you have to play the hand you are dealt and the Giants don't have a true elite 20-carry a game RB and they don't have a physically dominating OL - Beatty, for example, is arguably one of the least physical OTs in the league and Walton looks like a midget out there. Meanwhile, Jennings is a nice back but he's naturally a complimentary back rather than a feature guy; in fact, Jennings seems to make his best plays when he's in space where he appears to be a tough guy to tackle but between the tackles he doesn't appear to have very good instincts, has almost no lateral agility and really doesn't move the pile.
I also worry that the whole debate (no between you and I but on the Giants if it exists) is that it represents something of a schizoid element on the Giants. The Giants brought in a new OC to introduce an uptempo, spread offense that plays fast and it just seems to be a contradiction in purposes to say we want to establish a physical identity. Its hard enough to do one, but to try and do both at the same time.
That also raises the question as to who is calling the shots of offense. When McAdoo arrived the buzz was that it was going to be his offense; indeed, the Giants switched to his terminology which is very unusual when bringing in a new OC to a team whose head coach is the de facto OC. Then Coughlin said unequivicably when asked who had the final say on the scheme and play calling that it would be McAdoo. (Surprised that no one asked him the obvious follow-up question what TC would be doing.) There were of course some follow up interviews that the new offense would be a blend of the old and new (which was preposterous on the face of it, because TC's old base offense and the WCO are so almost diameterically opposed).
Then at half time of the Lions game Coughlin told the cupcake interviewer at half time that the Giants wanted to establish the in the 2nd half to set up some play action, which of course was one of the basic tenets of his old offense. The philosophy of a WCO is that you spread the defense with the pass to set up the run.
Let me add that I don't believe for a second that the reason the Giants lost vs Arizona was because of the run/pass ratio. They lost because they kept shooting themselves in the foot.
Let me add that I don't believe for a second that the reason the Giants lost vs Arizona was because of the run/pass ratio. They lost because they kept shooting themselves in the foot.
-4 turnover ration is shooting yourself in BOTH feet.
Was just breaking down the rushing numbers and the 81 yards on 27 carries actually really flatters the run game. That includes a 5-yard scramble by Eli which is no big deal; the bigger deal is that Jennings best run - 13 yards - came with 27 seconds left in the game on a draw. His only other 10 yard run came on the fateful drive he fumbled on; in fact on their first 23 runs of the game over 3 1/2 quarters the Giants had 50 yards, barely two a pop. What a waste of offensive plays.
Totally agree. Should have thrown five to ten times more, especially if the pass were short yardage. And except for the play to Randle, we never tried anything deep. There is no speed on the edges, and everybody knows it.
Not only about developing an identity, but you have to try to get in 2nd and 3rd down manageable situations. I'd rather be 2nd and 7 and 3rd and 5 than 3rd and 10 or more. Plus, if you don't make the other team respect the run, they can just pin their ears back and go after Eli. As Eric said, that's not the way for Eli to survive the season.
They have to throw the ball downfield. Where is the long ball? Send someone deep down the sideline to open things up early for the run and the play action. I didnt see any particularly deep throws, maybe just the one to Cruz.
We averaged 10 yards per completion which is another reason why we couldnt run.
Eric: I respectfully disagree. The objective is to win the game; who cares how you do it. What I would be concerned about is that if there has been a blind spot in the Coughlin era its that so much of the team's approach has been almost ideological. Coughlin has a philosophy as to how the game should be played and G-D it all that's what we are going to do. Another famous coach once said the key to coaching is to figure out what you do well and maximize the times you do (and conversely figure out what you don't do well and minimize that!)
Thanks Colin for saying what others are afraid to say. There are times it feels like the SB wins were a total fluke.
Thanks Colin for saying what others are afraid to say. There are times it feels like the SB wins were a total fluke.
Not as flukie if you consider Plax shooting himself which derailed the great 2008 team and the miracle in thr meadowlands II cost them the #2 seed and they missed the playoffs.
played really well today. Why? Because he did not throw 4 picks today? He did have a lot of drops today but quite honestly a few of those balls also could have been placed better.
One may say that Eli played well enough for the Giants to win today. I say he didn't. Here is why...
If you look at his game today, there was nothing spectacular at all. We just did not get "bad Eli" today.
Unfortunately, we need much more than that. We have an offense with very little talent. So, we need our QB to play like an all pro so he can elevate the play of the rest of the offense. Pedestrian performances coupled with this shitty O line and sub par skill position players gets you about 14 points.
Then, when you consider that he is getting paid $20mm which is 1/6 of our salary cap... yeah we need A LOT more than what he delivered today.
There are QBs out there putting up the same numbers or better that make millions less. Those dollars could be spent in other areas to solidify this team. OR... Eli can start playing like a $20mm QB rather than a QB who played well before the iPhone 5.
My DUD has to go to Fewell. We have a secondary that Carl banks says is loaded with talent. Ok fine. If that is true, then why do they look like they dont know WFT they are doing out there? Why do we have guys wide open every game? Busted plays every game. Do these players suddenly forget how to play? Do they lack the physical skills as soon as the put on a blue uniform? OR..are the schemes and/or communication just all screwed up?
Finally why does Quinn still have a job? Naked pics of Coughlin somewhere?
As old Crash Davis would say 'you guys have to work on your cliches!' Don, running the ball does absolutely nothing to allow the defense to rest. Making first downs does. Of course, the game clock runs on running plays but whether you run the ball or pass and go three and out the actual time the defense gets to rest is exactly the same.
Re the Super Bowls there was absolutely nothing flukie about either. I think however you can make a pretty good case that the Giants won in 2011 as much in spite of TC's very very conservative game plans rather than because of any particular coaching brilliance on his part. Even in the SB game itself the Giants had a major edge tactical advantage in that the Patriots didn't have a CB on the roster who could stay with Nicks, Cruz and Manningham, but because the Giants ran out of a two-wide formation on something like 40 of the 60 plays they ran thru the first three-quarters, NE was able to double on Nicks and Cruz while Manningham twiddled his thumbs on the sideline.
As old Crash Davis would say 'you guys have to work on your cliches!' Don, running the ball does absolutely nothing to allow the defense to rest. Making first downs does. Of course, the game clock runs on running plays but whether you run the ball or pass and go three and out the actual time the defense gets to rest is exactly the same.
Re the Super Bowls there was absolutely nothing flukie about either. I think however you can make a pretty good case that the Giants won in 2011 as much in spite of TC's very very conservative game plans rather than because of any particular coaching brilliance on his part. Even in the SB game itself the Giants had a major edge tactical advantage in that the Patriots didn't have a CB on the roster who could stay with Nicks, Cruz and Manningham, but because the Giants ran out of a two-wide formation on something like 40 of the 60 plays they ran thru the first three-quarters, NE was able to double on Nicks and Cruz while Manningham twiddled his thumbs on the sideline.
Coughlin gets way too much credit for those SB wins and a major pass from loyalists who don't hold him responsible for the mental errors his teams make.
Bottom line for me is this team severely lacks talent Â
At wide receiver. It's pretty obvious. I know this team has A TON of holes but All those complaining about drafting a wide receiver in the first round should see why after these first two weeks. Beckham is a complete unknown at this point but you can see why the Giants prioritized the WR position more than most on here did. Randle and Jernigan are not NFL starting WRs...they aren't. Cruz is effective with threats on the outside and with the current personnel, he will continue to struggle.
Run blocking is something that will improve after the line Â
has played many games together, which can't happen until injured linemen get healthy and the team can decide who its starting linemen are going to be.
I'm disappointed that the Giants have settled for Peyton Hillis as their premier running back. Now in his seventh season, the Giants are his fourth team and his average yards per carry is 4.1. For the preceding three years, 2011-2013, his yards per carry is only 3.5.
Running backs are no longer the big ticket item they once were and we should be able to do better. Get at least one back who is an outside threat.
Sportscasters looking at stats and not watching the game and make ill-advised comments. Next on the 11 o;clock news.
I don't think they had a choice. You have to stay balanced. If you put Arizona in a position where they could just pin their ears back Eli would've gotten battered.
We need speed and the only one on the roster that can bring it on the outside is Beckham. Lets be careful with him but if he can be back for week 5 or 6 it should help, rookie or not.
He plays well on special teams.
The runs put them in third and manageable situations. Which they actually converted.
I thought this as well. Once they were down to Herzlich, why didn't they go 3 safeties? Couldn't be worse than what they were running out there a LB.
Quote:
This stuff about balance is utter nonsense. Eli got hit twice in 36 attempts today. They weren't even getting close enough to breathe on him. The Giants would have been better served on half those runs just throwing the ball deep down the field hoping somebody makes a catch or the defense gets a PI call because the runs were nothing more useful than an incompletion!
The runs put them in third and manageable situations. Which they actually converted.
I dont think that was true in the 2nd half. Seems like when they ran on 1st and 2nd down it resulted in 3rd and long.
The other reason? If Eli has to drop back 50 times a game, he'll never survive the season.
The first drop right before the punt return, it would have been a huge gain. Cruz's defender jumped the route and missed. He would have had a huge chunk down the sideline with only one defender on the sideline running with a different WR. I cant say about pursuit though. It would have definitely put us close to FG range though.
Bottom line is they had the lead doing what they were doing and looked as good offensively as we had seen them all calendar year.
They should have abandoned it in the 4th when it was 14-13. Those two runs up the middle by Williams were just mind numbling awful. Eli was hot all game. Two bad runs, a drop, punt return, fumble, game over.
Eli had 1 chance with the lead, that cant happen.
This is football 101 stuff. You have to make them respect the run. It's easy to armchair this and look at yards per play pass vs run, but you completely discount that the pass is opened up because the Giants showed commitment to the ground game. The Cardinals were not going to drop 7 or 8 with the Giants constantly probing.
I also worry that the whole debate (no between you and I but on the Giants if it exists) is that it represents something of a schizoid element on the Giants. The Giants brought in a new OC to introduce an uptempo, spread offense that plays fast and it just seems to be a contradiction in purposes to say we want to establish a physical identity. Its hard enough to do one, but to try and do both at the same time.
That also raises the question as to who is calling the shots of offense. When McAdoo arrived the buzz was that it was going to be his offense; indeed, the Giants switched to his terminology which is very unusual when bringing in a new OC to a team whose head coach is the de facto OC. Then Coughlin said unequivicably when asked who had the final say on the scheme and play calling that it would be McAdoo. (Surprised that no one asked him the obvious follow-up question what TC would be doing.) There were of course some follow up interviews that the new offense would be a blend of the old and new (which was preposterous on the face of it, because TC's old base offense and the WCO are so almost diameterically opposed).
Then at half time of the Lions game Coughlin told the cupcake interviewer at half time that the Giants wanted to establish the in the 2nd half to set up some play action, which of course was one of the basic tenets of his old offense. The philosophy of a WCO is that you spread the defense with the pass to set up the run.
Totally agree. Should have thrown five to ten times more, especially if the pass were short yardage. And except for the play to Randle, we never tried anything deep. There is no speed on the edges, and everybody knows it.
We averaged 10 yards per completion which is another reason why we couldnt run.
I don't understand the sportscasters, experts, refs, rules or anything apparently anymore.
At least the Giants are always drafting the BAP although their recent draft history says otherwise.
Thanks Colin for saying what others are afraid to say. There are times it feels like the SB wins were a total fluke.
Thanks Colin for saying what others are afraid to say. There are times it feels like the SB wins were a total fluke.
Not as flukie if you consider Plax shooting himself which derailed the great 2008 team and the miracle in thr meadowlands II cost them the #2 seed and they missed the playoffs.
One may say that Eli played well enough for the Giants to win today. I say he didn't. Here is why...
If you look at his game today, there was nothing spectacular at all. We just did not get "bad Eli" today.
Unfortunately, we need much more than that. We have an offense with very little talent. So, we need our QB to play like an all pro so he can elevate the play of the rest of the offense. Pedestrian performances coupled with this shitty O line and sub par skill position players gets you about 14 points.
Then, when you consider that he is getting paid $20mm which is 1/6 of our salary cap... yeah we need A LOT more than what he delivered today.
There are QBs out there putting up the same numbers or better that make millions less. Those dollars could be spent in other areas to solidify this team. OR... Eli can start playing like a $20mm QB rather than a QB who played well before the iPhone 5.
My DUD has to go to Fewell. We have a secondary that Carl banks says is loaded with talent. Ok fine. If that is true, then why do they look like they dont know WFT they are doing out there? Why do we have guys wide open every game? Busted plays every game. Do these players suddenly forget how to play? Do they lack the physical skills as soon as the put on a blue uniform? OR..are the schemes and/or communication just all screwed up?
Finally why does Quinn still have a job? Naked pics of Coughlin somewhere?
and your going to bed early,no tv either
Re the Super Bowls there was absolutely nothing flukie about either. I think however you can make a pretty good case that the Giants won in 2011 as much in spite of TC's very very conservative game plans rather than because of any particular coaching brilliance on his part. Even in the SB game itself the Giants had a major edge tactical advantage in that the Patriots didn't have a CB on the roster who could stay with Nicks, Cruz and Manningham, but because the Giants ran out of a two-wide formation on something like 40 of the 60 plays they ran thru the first three-quarters, NE was able to double on Nicks and Cruz while Manningham twiddled his thumbs on the sideline.
when #31 missed him and the whole coverage team kinda frozen. it gave me a flashback of Deshawn Jackson in 2010
Re the Super Bowls there was absolutely nothing flukie about either. I think however you can make a pretty good case that the Giants won in 2011 as much in spite of TC's very very conservative game plans rather than because of any particular coaching brilliance on his part. Even in the SB game itself the Giants had a major edge tactical advantage in that the Patriots didn't have a CB on the roster who could stay with Nicks, Cruz and Manningham, but because the Giants ran out of a two-wide formation on something like 40 of the 60 plays they ran thru the first three-quarters, NE was able to double on Nicks and Cruz while Manningham twiddled his thumbs on the sideline.
Coughlin gets way too much credit for those SB wins and a major pass from loyalists who don't hold him responsible for the mental errors his teams make.
I'm disappointed that the Giants have settled for Peyton Hillis as their premier running back. Now in his seventh season, the Giants are his fourth team and his average yards per carry is 4.1. For the preceding three years, 2011-2013, his yards per carry is only 3.5.
Running backs are no longer the big ticket item they once were and we should be able to do better. Get at least one back who is an outside threat.