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We Used To Joke That The NFL Had Become ...

Trainmaster : 9/15/2014 7:44 pm
the "No Fun League" under Goodell. Given 4 to 5 weeks of preseason football and 2 weeks of the regular season in 2014, it is even worse, with the NFL now standing for the "Neverending Flags League" IMHO. The fact that so many are "ticky tack" flags makes it worse.

I find my enjoyment for NFL games, especially those not involving the Giants, to have waned significantly. Last year's Broncos versus Cowboys 51-45 game must be the model that Goodell wants for the NFL; lots of points for fans watching solely to see how their fantasy team did.

The Sunday Night game between the 49ers and the Bears was really hard to watch. I don't have any statistics to back me up (and I attended a game at FedEx in 2003 that saw the Skins flagged 17 times and the Giants flagged 15 times), but the trend to numerous game changing flags seems to be accelerating.

I'm OK with the new rules reducing helmet to helmet contact etc. for player safety, but the new "stricly enforced" illegal contact rules are causing me to watch less football. When contact that wouldn't draw a foul in the NBA is a penalty in the NFL, things are significantly off track.

Unfortunately, as long as we fans still tune in, I don't see anything changing. Pretty depressing, especially for older fans used to "Giants Football = Giants Defense".

I hate Goodell's Neverending Flags League.
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I think more of the issue with hockey is..  
Sean : 9/18/2014 12:38 pm : link
not many people have played it. Most all kids grow up playing little league or organized basketball. Most kids will play football with friends, but hockey not so much. It's hard enough just to master ice skating let alone the sport of hockey.

I think that contributes to the fact that it has a very diehard core following, but doesn't appeal to the casual fan.

NBA gets better TV ratings, but that's only because there are more CASUAL fans.

Joe- most people who watch the NBA don't break it down like you do nor could they. You and Osi are two of the best NBA posters on the board, but most people who watch the sport aren't breaking down numbers like the each of you are. Most people can talk LeBron, talk about the teams out west, talk about their own team and watch the playoffs. Ratings=casual fans.
I never talk about tv ratings  
MarshallOnMontana : 9/18/2014 12:40 pm : link
In the context that it automatically makes something better. On this thread, they were brought up as a reference point to push back on the notion that fmic had outlined, ie nba perception has it in decline more than any other sport.

.  
arcarsenal : 9/18/2014 12:41 pm : link
It's not super complex but when you never actually play it as a kid or ever, it's a little tougher to grasp. I played baseball and basketball growing up like most kids did because it was accessible and easy to get into a league and not really expensive. Joining an ice hockey league wasn't really in my parents budget.

It's more of a familiarity thing. But my point is.. most people in this country are more assimilated to the sports they actually played on the playground or in little league. Not many people actually played hockey, so.. they find it more confusing.
.  
arcarsenal : 9/18/2014 12:44 pm : link
And Sean kind of hit on what I'm getting at. The NBA has a TON of casual fans. People who just follow because of the superstars. The LeBrons, the Kobe's, the Jordans.. etc.

You don't really find hockey fans who are drawn to the sport because of Crosby or Stamkos or guys like that. Most people who are into hockey are really into hockey as a team sport.

That's not to say there aren't legit NBA fans. It's just that the types of NBA fans even on this board aren't really the norm. There are things on the NBA threads here that are like a foreign language to casual fans.

Doesn't make one better than the other but to me, I just always felt like hockey had far less casual fans. People who like hockey are usually pretty invested in it as a whole.
casual fans  
MarshallOnMontana : 9/18/2014 12:51 pm : link
Make up the majority of sports fans. They are the difference between carving up a small niche or being something bigger. Do we think most nfl fans are any more than casual? They know the fantasy football guys, 80 plus percent of people watching on a sunday couldnt name 3 offensive lineman on any team but their own. Baseball fans dont even watch baseball games that dont involve their local team. The sport has become incredibly regional
as a hockey fan, I agree  
Greg from LI : 9/18/2014 12:54 pm : link
Hockey really doesn't have a lot of casual fans. Most fans are pretty damned hardcore. And while a lot of hardcore hockey fans never played the game (I never did, I can't even skate at all), I agree that the fact that so many people have never played it at all limits its appeal to a certain extent. Virtually everyone has shot hoops at least a bit, or played touch football a few times, so there is much more familiarity.

Hockey also has a really insular us-against-the-world quality to it. A fair number of hockey fans actively do not want it to become more popular for the precise reason that they don't want a lot of casual fans who aren't invested in the sport showing up and trying to change it. For good or ill, that's a common feeling.
RE: I never talk about tv ratings  
Greg from LI : 9/18/2014 12:55 pm : link
In comment 11869625 MarshallOnMontana said:
Quote:
In the context that it automatically makes something better.


Right, that's why you're baiting people with that ludicrous NHL-WNBA comparison. Gotcha.
RE: casual fans  
Sean : 9/18/2014 12:58 pm : link
In comment 11869646 MarshallOnMontana said:
Quote:
Make up the majority of sports fans. They are the difference between carving up a small niche or being something bigger. Do we think most nfl fans are any more than casual? They know the fantasy football guys, 80 plus percent of people watching on a sunday couldnt name 3 offensive lineman on any team but their own. Baseball fans dont even watch baseball games that dont involve their local team. The sport has become incredibly regional


That's the point, it's casual. When you start breaking down numbers, most basketball fans can't do that. I always get the vibe that the NBA posters are a bit holier than thou with some of the basketball threads here. And a lot of NBA posters seem to suck up to you Joe. Not to throw him under the bus, but didn't you and dep get into a HUGE verbal brawl during the finals 2 years ago? Now it seems dep tries to prove his NBA knowledge to you on some of the threads. I enjoy the NBA, but the threads can become a whole who knows more than who vibe on here IMO.
greg  
MarshallOnMontana : 9/18/2014 1:00 pm : link
I dont think the nba is better than the nhl because it is more widely watched.

The wnba thing is just a matter of fact. Is it said to tweak? Sure.
.  
arcarsenal : 9/18/2014 1:01 pm : link
I'm not saying casual hockey fans don't exist or don't make up a portion of the fan bases but I've always felt that hockey was more niche-y than the other major sports. I can't back that up with numbers because there's no way to measure it, it's just the impression I always got.

The NFL is FLOODED with casual fans and even moreso now because of fantasy football in particular and the fact that NFL Sundays are a social event of sorts and a thing people just do.


....  
BrettNYG10 : 9/18/2014 1:02 pm : link
The WNBA's great. I have no problem with that comparison.
NHL games weren't even on a major network for years post-lockout  
Greg from LI : 9/18/2014 1:05 pm : link
You had to really work to watch games. If you're not truly invested in the sport, you're not going to bother. Even today, only a handful of games are carried by NBC. Most games are on NBC Sports or the NHL Network, and a lot of people don't get those networks. Outside of that, you only have the regional sports networks carrying a local team. That's great if you're a fan of that team, but I'm only going to see a handful of Ranger games on MASN.
RE: NHL games weren't even on a major network for years post-lockout  
BrettNYG10 : 9/18/2014 1:10 pm : link
In comment 11869671 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
You had to really work to watch games. If you're not truly invested in the sport, you're not going to bother. Even today, only a handful of games are carried by NBC. Most games are on NBC Sports or the NHL Network, and a lot of people don't get those networks. Outside of that, you only have the regional sports networks carrying a local team. That's great if you're a fan of that team, but I'm only going to see a handful of Ranger games on MASN.


Yeah, being in NY I get all three local teams, which is great. And I have NBSCN, so I get an extra couple of games that way. But being in Virginia, it's harder for you to get games, I'd imagine.
With MoM  
BigBlueShock : 9/18/2014 1:10 pm : link
It's fucking ALWAYS about race. Don't like the NBA? You're a racist. It's strange man.
RE: With MoM  
Peter in Atlanta : 9/18/2014 1:12 pm : link
In comment 11869688 BigBlueShock said:
Quote:
It's fucking ALWAYS about race. Don't like the NBA? You're a racist. It's strange man.


It's also about age. I can't wait for the ageist to turn 50 because he thinks it's some magical number.
sean  
MarshallOnMontana : 9/18/2014 1:12 pm : link
I think you completely read that situation wrong. Im getting in way fewer spats on nba threads now than a couple years ago for sure, but not because people are "sucking up to me", moreso because I have consciously tried to not be a condescending prick on nba threads, and I was admittedly that at one time.

I do watch the nba a lot, as much as anyone here. I do not think that makes me the most qualified to have an opinion though. We have a bunch of great nba posters here.

I do love the visual though of me being the basketball mr miyagi to deps daniel
I didn't get either NHLN or NBC Sports last year  
Greg from LI : 9/18/2014 1:17 pm : link
I will have NBC Sports this season, which will be nice. I can watch all the Caps games I want (and some Flyers games on CSN), but who the hell wants to watch them? :)
You're going to get a lot of anti-NBA talk on bbi  
kmed : 9/18/2014 1:22 pm : link
because most fans here haven't seen a good, no decent, product in a looong time. I think if the Knicks were better, people wouldn't be so anti-NBA. I think its bullshit to just call people racists because they don't like the NBA.
RE: I didn't get either NHLN or NBC Sports last year  
BrettNYG10 : 9/18/2014 1:25 pm : link
In comment 11869706 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
I will have NBC Sports this season, which will be nice. I can watch all the Caps games I want (and some Flyers games on CSN), but who the hell wants to watch them? :)


Ha, I still don't have NHLN. I've thought about getting Center Ice, but it doesn't make sense given how many games I get already.
kmed and bbs  
MarshallOnMontana : 9/18/2014 1:27 pm : link
Read my 12:12, im not typing up the same response twice
I'm trying to drink this whole thread in,  
kmed : 9/18/2014 1:32 pm : link
but I can't get past this race argument....

The NBA is flourishing. Ratings are great, they are making lots of money. The game is great, the stars are great. Everything about the NBA is great. Then you come on a NY site and people are talking about how they haven't liked basketball since the 90's because it's not the same and the conclusion that some draw is that it's because people are racist? Coincidentally, that's the last time this NY team was watchable.

Conversely, it's not racist to not like a sport because you can't relate with the players. Are the ratings for the NHL extremely high among black people? Are black people racist for not watching the NHL or do they just have a hard time relating to the players?
Can only speak for myself  
Greg from LI : 9/18/2014 1:39 pm : link
But, yes, my interest in the NBA plummeted due to the Knicks being an awful team for years. It also doesn't help that the teams I hate the most (the Lakers, the Bulls, the Heat, the Pacers, the Celtics) were usually in contention while the Knicks perpetually embarrassed themselves.

It also doesn't help that the NBA is by FAR the most predictable of the 4 major leagues. In any given year, if you asked someone to pick three teams as their most likely bets to win it all, odds are they'll have the eventual champion on their list. There are never more than a handful of teams that have a realistic shot at a championship, and the same teams tend to be in that handful over and over again.
kmed  
MarshallOnMontana : 9/18/2014 1:42 pm : link
Theres a difference between calling someone a racist and saying race plays a factor. I havent called anyone a racist, just because 5 different posters keep saying it doesnt make it so. And im sure race also does play a factor with african american nhl viewership on some level too

Race was brought up in this thread becausof rockys post, if you cant see racial code in there then I dont know what to tell you




Joe, you are correct and I should have pointed out  
kmed : 9/18/2014 1:43 pm : link
that I was mostly speaking to SanFran. You do seem to "hint" at that often though.
Joe,  
kmed : 9/18/2014 1:44 pm : link
I'd also like to point out that I disregard almost everything that dude says because he has an agenda to stir shit. I'm not sure he believes anything he writes.
RT's post is an excuse.  
Peter in Atlanta : 9/18/2014 1:50 pm : link
Funny how people are saying you bring in race all the time but here you only did it because of RT? The perception is reality. You bring it up all the time.
peter  
MarshallOnMontana : 9/18/2014 1:56 pm : link
I bring it up where I think it belongs. I wouldnt have brought it up on this tnread if not for rockys post, choose to believe it or not, I dont care
RE: peter  
Peter in Atlanta : 9/18/2014 2:02 pm : link
In comment 11869787 MarshallOnMontana said:
Quote:
I bring it up where I think it belongs. I wouldnt have brought it up on this tnread [sic] if not for rockys post, choose to believe it or not, I dont care


Which is in every thread where people say they don't like the NBA.
Fat Man  
Rocky Thompson : 9/18/2014 2:16 pm : link

I wasn't baiting, I was being honest.

MoM, who gives a shit how many people watch the NBA? It's thriving, that's wonderful, Andrew Lloyd Weber is a rich man and his operettas suck, Jimmy Buffett sells out more shows than any other pop/rock artist, his music sucks, Jay Z and Beyoncé are multi millionaires and they suck. The American public paying to see something is certainly no indication of the quality of the product.

It's funny, when I first moved to Wilmington 20 years ago, I used to literally get into fights at the bar because they wouldn't put the NBA playoffs on the TV because NASCAR was on. Fuckin rednecks.

I've watched more NBA games than the average bear, used to literally take notes on what moves Walt Frazier would use and immediately go out and practice them after the game. I can't walk today because I logged too many hours on asphalt, spent all day anticipating a game and the rest of the day thinking about how I played. Still coach youth basketball at the Y, hardly an all white country club.

Gimme Charles Oakley ruling the boards, Mark Jackson directing the offense, Earl the Pearls spin move, Bernard King's unstoppable 17 ft turn around jumper. It was all about team play, cohesiveness, not gimme the money, gimme the ball.

I'm no racist for not watching the NBA anymore, how can you tell what color the players are? There's too many tattoos.

It's ME first, team later, there's no rivalries anymore. The NBA died when Michael, Magic and Larry were done, long live Willis Reed!
we are actually in the era  
MarshallOnMontana : 9/18/2014 2:46 pm : link
Of the most ball movement and least isolation play in a long time, at minimum since the merger. Lots of reasons for this..... rules changes making it harder to just clearout and go 1 on 1 with the scrapping of illegal defense, the 90s was an iso dominant time, not an era to hold up for team play. Their 1 on 1 era led to these rule ch@ges. There has been an increase in european influence that has permeated the game as well, and their brand of ball is much more team oriented. In addition, advanced analytics have changed the way a volume scorer with shakey efficiency is valued.

We are now in a time where the face of the league from a team standpoint is a san antonio squad that is a complete anomaly among champions because of their lack of a current megastar, not so much as a 20 point scorer, just poetic ball movement and skill that led to a dominant offensive attack. And the face of the league from an individual standpoint is lebron james, about as unselfish a superstar as we have seen. 3rd all time in scoring average, but his passing and robotic tendency to make the right basketball play is what makes him
LeBron  
UConn4523 : 9/18/2014 2:47 pm : link
now has his hair back. Not sure if that was noted yet...
I actually have a simpler explanation..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/18/2014 2:58 pm : link
and one that's already been mentioned:

Quote:
I don't get this
Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy : 12:16 pm : link : reply
"perception is reality" argument FMiC.

Perception isn't reality, it's perception. And when perception is so completely off from the actual reality, you begin to question why that difference exists.

The perception of the NBA is further off from the reality off it than pretty much any of the other major sports in the country. So that's why people start to bring race discussions into it trying to figure out if that's the reason why people are so wrong about the sport.


For most of THIS board, the Knicks have not been good for years, pretty much since Jordan left, so the timing coincides. For most of my generation (let's say 40 year olds, not 50 year olds), we stopped being ardent followers of the NBA when Jordan left. Also, the lockout happened which also contributed to the downward trend.

The few games I did watch post-Jordan were horrifically officiated games. Thus, my perception is that the NBA is a whistle-fest. Then, several years later, I started watching post-season games involving the Heat or Lakers. My perception watching those games was one of continual stoppages due to whistles, and ridiculous flopping from guys like LeBron. So, my perception, which was formed long ago, was "confirmed" in my view. I'd like to think i'm an outlier here, but literally none of the guys who I watched the NBA with or were hard-core fans ever talk about the NBA anymore. In fact, I can't think of a time with friends we've mentioned the NBA, or if we do it is a throw away line about the ridiculousness of the LeBron hype.

I might not be the norm, but it isn't like I've been a lone wolf thinking like this. My point of view has nothing to do with race, but everything to do with a perception - even if that perception is wrong. For me, it has been the reality since 1990.
San Antonio is old school  
Rocky Thompson : 9/18/2014 2:59 pm : link

Tim Duncan rocks.

The only time Carmello Anthony records an assist is if he's tripled teamed or inadvertently bounces the ball off his foot and it goes to another Knick.

What are you an employee of an NBA sponsor? I think I watched Saving Private Ryan while San Antonio was clinching the title, I ain't coming back...
Maybe, just maybe  
BigBlueShock : 9/18/2014 3:02 pm : link
Old white dudes aren't into the NBA because it wasn't all that popular when they were growing up? I mean, how many of those old white guys watch the X games? Or lacrosse? Probably not many. Maybe it has absolutely nothing to do with race, but of course, you always try to connect the dots to bring up race. You seem to go out of your way to try to come across as the guy that "gets it", but instead you come across as predjudiced against old white guys. Which is a bit strange, since you're, you know, white.
RE: sean  
dep026 : 9/18/2014 3:15 pm : link
In comment 11869694 MarshallOnMontana said:
Quote:


I do love the visual though of me being the basketball mr miyagi to deps daniel


Easy there big fella. They are just trying to rip the strong NBA bond we have.

bbs  
MarshallOnMontana : 9/18/2014 3:28 pm : link
Thats part of it sure. For the 1 millionth time I never made it all about race, but to dismiss it is absurd. You have to be willfully blind to not recognize its an issue the nba has had to deal with and dance around more than any other league in this country in a landslide
Giants, Yankees, Rangers and Knicks fan here  
JPinstripes : 9/18/2014 3:28 pm : link
Life long. Nothing for me compares to the magical Cup win run of the Rangers in 1994, and I love all my NY sports teams.

That playoff ride of 94 - going out to the local bars packed with Ranger fans (Foleys in Pleasantville NY) and watching every Ranger playoff game and WINNING the Cup was the most into a sports team I ever was in my entire life.

Culminating with the ticker tape parade, that I walked to from my office at 1 world trade center to the corner of Rector and Broadway. Best team ever, best memories ever of a sports team. Fu@# the ratings.

Nothing came close to the passion, fun and emotions of the 1994 NY Rangers.
fmic  
MarshallOnMontana : 9/18/2014 3:37 pm : link
The nba had a horrid series of events all hit them between 99 and 05ish over a 5 to 6 year span. Just kill shot after kill shot from a pr standpoint

loss of jordan. Lockout. 02 western conference finals officiating display. The brawl at the palace with guys going into the crowd punching fans was a horrible optic. Kobe rape accusation. Donaghy stuff. It was one thing after another and im probably forgetting something. Theyve been coming back from this period for years now and have just now got past it. It was the worst image the league had since the cocaine 70s
Yep..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 9/18/2014 3:39 pm : link
And that was the lasting perception I was left with.

BTW, in my previous post, I meant 1999, not 1990
RE: bbs  
BigBlueShock : 9/18/2014 3:49 pm : link
In comment 11869956 MarshallOnMontana said:
Quote:
Thats part of it sure. For the 1 millionth time I never made it all about race, but to dismiss it is absurd. You have to be willfully blind to not recognize its an issue the nba has had to deal with and dance around more than any other league in this country in a landslide

I feel ya. If it wasn't for the NFL being 90% white, it too would prolly be in the same boat....poor, poor NBA. Always getting neglected
bbs  
MarshallOnMontana : 9/18/2014 4:17 pm : link
Thats a pretty ridiculous response. Its not the same even if the racial makeup is similar. One league has pretty much exclusively black athletes as the face and torch carriers representing them. If you were to identify the 10 or so players most associated with the nfl brand nationally, the majority of them are white. Its peyton, its brady, its brees, its rodgers. To even compare it as if the challenge is identical is silly. Race has always been a bigger issue to combat in the nba
RE: bbs  
Patrick77 : 9/18/2014 4:30 pm : link
In comment 11870081 MarshallOnMontana said:
Quote:
Thats a pretty ridiculous response. Its not the same even if the racial makeup is similar. One league has pretty much exclusively black athletes as the face and torch carriers representing them. If you were to identify the 10 or so players most associated with the nfl brand nationally, the majority of them are white. Its peyton, its brady, its brees, its rodgers. To even compare it as if the challenge is identical is silly. Race has always been a bigger issue to combat in the nba


The NFL brand might include:

Adrian Peterson
Patrick Willis
Cam Newton
Calvin Johnson
Dez Bryant
RGIII
Troy Polamalu,
Colin Kaepernick
Richard Sherman
Marshawn Lynch
Lesean McCoy
Russell Wilson....

You know... Just based off popularity like jersey sales. Are you sure you aren't the racist?
if it was magic johnson and leroy bird in the 80s  
MarshallOnMontana : 9/18/2014 4:31 pm : link
Who knows when the nba gets off tape delay.
patrick  
MarshallOnMontana : 9/18/2014 4:35 pm : link
Sure it includes those guys, I never said it was all white. But unlike the nba, the nfl is flooded with white faces at the top of the marketing pole. Hell I even see jj watt among non qbs as more omnipresent than anyone you just listed. Its not what the nba faces and has always faced in this country

and how am I the racist? Other than he who smelt it dealt it level logic
RE: patrick  
Patrick77 : 9/18/2014 4:49 pm : link
In comment 11870116 MarshallOnMontana said:
Quote:
Sure it includes those guys, I never said it was all white. But unlike the nba, the nfl is flooded with white faces at the top of the marketing pole. Hell I even see jj watt among non qbs as more omnipresent than anyone you just listed. Its not what the nba faces and has always faced in this country

and how am I the racist? Other than he who smelt it dealt it level logic


Out of the top 10 known faces of the NFL 4 might be white as you assert, out of the top 20 it might be 7? top 50? Top 100? How is at most 40% "flooded"? I don't even think in the top 100 NFL players there would be 25 white players.

RE: bbs  
arcarsenal : 9/18/2014 4:53 pm : link
In comment 11870081 MarshallOnMontana said:
Quote:
Thats a pretty ridiculous response. Its not the same even if the racial makeup is similar. One league has pretty much exclusively black athletes as the face and torch carriers representing them. If you were to identify the 10 or so players most associated with the nfl brand nationally, the majority of them are white. Its peyton, its brady, its brees, its rodgers. To even compare it as if the challenge is identical is silly. Race has always been a bigger issue to combat in the nba


To be fair, this has way more to do with the QB position being probably the most prominent in all of sports than it does race. There's no QB equivalent in the NBA or NHL and in baseball, SP's aren't the equivalent either seeing as they only pitch once every 5 games.

When Vick was starting to "revolutionize" the QB position in Atlanta before all the dog fighting, Ron Mexico garbage, he was all over the place. Ads, jersey sales. He was very, very popular and the NFL had no issue publicizing him and trying to advertise him as the "next big thing."

So I think what you're saying just has more to do with the fact that a lot of white guys are QB's. I don't think they're faces of the league because of their race, I think they're faces of the league because of their positions. I mean, let's be real.. it's hard to make a defensive tackle or offensive guard a face of the league. Even if they're elite players.
patrick  
MarshallOnMontana : 9/18/2014 4:57 pm : link
I think the numbers are certainly a bit higher than you do. But if we are even to grant your estimations as fact, thats still a significantly bigger presence than the nba, which has virtually a non existent presence. Especially among american born whites. Whos number 2 after kevin love thats currently relevant?, and people in this country who dont watch the nba closely literally largely had little to no idea who he was until he got thrust into the world of lebron a couple months ago.

I don't understand this debate at all  
JPinstripes : 9/18/2014 4:59 pm : link
as the NFL has gladiator type uniforms including helmets and full body gear that make it almost impossible for viewers to distinguish race type amongst players. What is the point here?
I didnt say those guys were faces of the league because theyre white  
MarshallOnMontana : 9/18/2014 5:02 pm : link
I said unlike the nba, the nfl has plenty of white players who they can and do market as faces of the league. Thats why you cant just say "the nfl is almost equally as black as the nba, therefore there is no difference in the challenge they face selling to a predominantly white country".

Thats a bunch of nonsense
RE: I don't understand this debate at all  
BigBlueShock : 9/18/2014 6:10 pm : link
In comment 11870145 JPinstripes said:
Quote:
as the NFL has gladiator type uniforms including helmets and full body gear that make it almost impossible for viewers to distinguish race type amongst players. What is the point here?

Do you really find it almost impossible to determine if a player is white or black while watching a football game? If you do, I'd suggest upgrading your telly. In fact, I think there just happens to be a new television thread from this morning. You should check it out
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