We Used To Joke That The NFL Had Become ...

If I wasn't so invested in the giants and to a lesser extent, fantasy football, my football passion would be losing steam.

I can live with the rules that protect players but the illegal contact bullshit is really hard to take. You have talented cornerbacks reduced to "overrated overpriced" athletes because they simply can't do their jobs anymore. I just don't understand what the nfl was thinking with these rules. Yes the scoring will increase but the actual product is total shite. Who cares if teams are scoring more points if the points come off penalties? Talk about anti climatic...

I can't believe I'm writing this but I really have to agree on losing some interest - and I used to be one of those guys who lived and died w/ the Giants and football. I'm starting to get very irritated about how this game has changed over the years. These penalties are killing the game we know. Commercials are another thing - watching the game is becoming so f-in tedious w/ endless commercial breaks. Maybe I'm just getting to old. Now get off my lawn.

if you want to see a lot of points scored, watch a professional bowling match.

The NFL of the mid / late 70s (I believe) became boring when the goal posts were still at the goal line and the "soccer style kickers" could kick 50 yard field goals. Once a team got into the other team's territory, a field goal attempt (ball stayed at the LOS, not the spot of the kick) could be made (e.g. a kick from the other team's 43 yard line was a 50 yard field goal).

That was fixed; maybe this can be fixed too.

but I much prefer to watch a crew of creative and gifted referees to those boring and overpaid players. What invention in the Giants-Cardinals game, what imagination. If only Broadway could equal that.

I gave up fantasy football four years ago and pretty much only watch Giant games now. Even that has lost appeal. Yesterday I spent the day on my boat watching the Blue Angels in Baltimore. Checking the Giants score was about all I did.

When the weather cools off more I'll spend more time watching games (including non Giant games) but while it's nice, being out doors takes precedence even to the Giants. That never would have been the case 5 years agin.

The NFL is going to fuck itself. I've never seen such apathy towards the game as I have this year. Domestic violence, a pathetic commissioner and the horrible officiating. I predict that next year the league will see it's first declining viewership in forever.

In their efforts to make the game more offensive, they've created a frustrating, boring slog of defensive penalties.

new NFL offensive strategy, Have the WR run right into the DB and draw a flag... 1st down

this league us now a Joke

College FB is far more entertaining now
I'll watch the Giants, but at work today, even the 9ers fans were telling me that the Refs are ruining the game

This pro offense strategy is terrible! The defenders, especially DBs are screwed. I hate the idea that you must give another player an unnecessry advantage. It's the one thing I hate about the NBA. Why on earth does the most talented player on the court also need to get the benefit of the calls. As much as loved Jordan's game, I just dont understand why the best player ever also needed to get the calls!

The games are just about unwatchable with a flag on almost every play.

the inconsistent / error-prone officiating makes it even worse.

The refs just gave the game to the %$#@! Eagles with the missed PI on Luck's pass that was intercepted and the BS horse collar on McCoy.

All calls need to be reviewable to at least give a chance to make up for the errors.

There was a time, right around Johnny Starks and Patrick, that I could tell you every single active player's college, then they started rap association. Making Spike Lee into anything that wasn't a Knick cancer, zone defense.

It's beyond unwatchable, gimme a Fordham/ Harvard game please.

if its a continuation if this week I call for a fan petition. I assume the other 31 fan boards have to be tired of this. Should be no problem getting 100k or more signatures.

Fantasy Football makes it interesting, add in leagues with IND D players and I have 60% of every teams rosters memorized. Can hold an intelligent conversation with any team's fan I might run into, that's worthwhile.

Fan Duel let's you play for profit weekly without putting up the kid's college fund, Red Zone Channel. It's the only way to watch football nowadays, gotta adjust or give into the dweebs...

Among those who love telling you how much they dont love the nba.

and if its because you think the product is worse, you dont know if a basketball is pumped with air or stuffed with feathers. The average nba player has never, ever been better. The globalization of the game and lack of expansion over the last 20 years has pushed the quality of the average player to unprecedented heights, competition is exponentially greater for roster spots

smh at glorifying the over expanded 90s which added like 7 teams in a very short span, most watered down nba since the merger, pre global explosion to boot. Worst era for skill level quite possibly ever. At minimum since the merger

Lot of the NBA hate is due to race, though you'll never get people to actually admit it. They'll careful dance around it.

NBA product right now is amazing, as Joe said. Ton of superstars & the league's arrow is definitely pointing up. Last year's playoffs were awesome.

I love the NFL & it remains my favorite sport by far, but the officiating sucks. It really is ruining the game.

but I can't stomach watching other teams play, too many flags, too many drives extended by the refs. Too many ticky tack fouls. The NFL is becoming a hard product to watch.

In comment 11865788 SanFranGiantsFan said:

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Lot of the NBA hate is due to race, though you'll never get people to actually admit it. They'll careful dance around it.

most of the time people are more discreet than calling it "the rap association" and including random, out of left field shots at spike lee

The NFL is 2/3 black. The NBA is 3/4 black. Do you really think that that extra 1/12 fraction of blacks is enough to push a racist from loving one league to hating another?

That's absolutely shitty reasoning and just a convenient race-baiting way to try to defend a sport you like.

I can only hope both will get better or else it's going to be rough season.

I do think some of the more vocal bashers have other motives, especially when theyre dropping code left and right. If you dont think thats the case your head is in the sand

In a league of helmet wearing players, most of the highest profile nfl players are indeed white. The faces of the league. Its not just about percentages

What tipped you off? Because I only mentioned Johnny Starks and Patrick Ewing and they're white? Shoulda went with James Worthy...

learn how to not grab the WRs. After they adjust there will be less flags.

It was more the rap stuff, and the inexplicable mention of one of the great white bogeymen, spike lee. Merely a courtside fan, somehow indicative of a declining product

the National Felony League.

have similar parallels here.

Of course the players are bigger and stronger than ever - probably even better than ever, but guess what, the game flows are being absolutely destroyed by the refs.

If you can watch a key NBA game and not be put off by the constant whistles and theatrics of players trying to draw whistles and think that commenting on that is a matter of race, I really don't know what to say.

The same thing happens in the NFL. Every pass play, there is either a flag, or a receiver or defender looking for a flag and gesturing for one to come. Every incomplete pass in bounds comes with a WR pulling a fake flag from his back pocket. And then when the flags do fly, they seem to be for random (or at least inconsistent) occurrences.

This doesn't have to do with race - it has to do with gameflow and perceived favortism. I'm pretty sure I'm not an avid Cuse fan for their token white guy on the floor, but I'll watch NCAA basketball almost every day in the Fall and completely ignore the NBA. Frankly, the players could be incredible, but if I have to wade through endless whistles to see a highlight and then watch the player who gave the highlight mug like an idiot, I'd rather watch less talented college guys.

NBA fans like to make this about race because for some odd reason, they refuse to accept that the game is shit for a lot of people. They will talk about the immense talent present as if it trumps all, but it doesn't. Talent hidden behind horrific calls turns a lot of people off. The NFL is headed in that direction too.

Thats a nice rant if it actually had any truth to it. Fact is free throw rates and foul calls have never been lower (conversely though, ft shooting has never been better).

The nba doesnt have a rise in foul calls to mirror the nfls growing flag issue, its actually the complete opposite of true

is simply age related. As people grow up they get busier and just aren't going to invest the time they used to in sports. I follow the Mets & Knicks much less on a day to day aspect because I'm just older now and busier, and I'm much more interested in the playoffs or a great matchup.

The reason the NFL is great is because the Giants are once a week, that is the beauty of it.

I think there a lot of racial implications with the NBA haters, but you have to be careful labeling anyone a racist for not being a fan of the sport. I do notice comments that NBA players are lazy and don't play defense which might be the most ignorant thing anyone can say, that deserves to be called out.

Was a Knick cancer. He was Reggie Miller's inspiration to singlehandedly take us apart. Hating Spike Lee has nothing to do with his movies and everything with hoping the Garden would take away his tickets.

And rap sucks, much like country music sucks and I actually started a thread questioning why the NFL associates itself with shitty music, which is mostly country. Gonna call me a redneck brasher now?

I'm guessing you're not old enough to remember the Knicks when they were good, if that's the case, shut up and listen but you're forgiven for the accusation...

Perception is reality.
you are continually blind to that. You think that because you like the NBA that anyone who criticizes it is full of shit. You talk about increased percentages of shots made and the better play - but the average fan doesn't see that.

They see the game stopped often. they see players flop. They see key stretches in the final minutes dominated with whistles. They see perceived favortism.

If we are using stats, I can tel you that people bitching about the NFL should shut up because offensive penalties have decreased by a third in the past ten years.

Stop bitching people, there's nothing to see here....

Certainly in more vivid detail than you. And blaming spike lee for reggie millers game 5 in 94 is just silly, always has been. By the way the knicks won that series anyway.

when the knicks were better than indy, we beat them in postseason. When we werent, we didnt. Maybe we were better in 95 but ewing was playing hurt

YOU were the guy wearing the 3D glasses!

GET OFF MY LAWN!

You just said something that was the exact opposite of right, literally could not be more wrong, but then want to hide behind "perception is reality"? Can I just state blatant inaccuracies and then throw that out there to act like my position has validity? Maybe you should ask why some perception is so backward? Maybe because some people arent paying any attention and hide behind bullshit reasons as to why

of right means shit if the public doesn't believe it.

Ask a casual fan of the NBA if the fouls called are lower now than before. Hell, ask a die-hard fan of the NFL if offensive penalties are significantly down.

We see this happen all the time. you tell us how great the NBA is and when people don't agree, it is implied we are racists, or ignorant to the perception that is evident to most out there.

I hate to break it to you, but you are in the minority in thinking that there are no issues with the way NBA games are officiated. That's reflected in attendance and ratings.

Here is a good attendance look:

Code:

League Teams Recent Average Attendance 2009 Avg. Attendance Trend Since 2009 Team games per year Source National Football League 32 67,604 (2012) 65,043 +2,561 16 [27] Major League Baseball 30 30,514 (2013) 30,300 +214 162 [28] Canadian Football League 9 28,193 (2012) 28,054 +139 18 [29][30] Major League Soccer 19 18,523 (2013) 16,037 +2,486 34 [31] National Hockey League 30 17,695 (2014) 17,460 +235 82 [32] National Basketball Association 30 17,408 (2014) 17,520 �112 82 [33]

It is probably not easy to see in the formatting, but attendance in the NBA is DOWN 112% since 2009. The only pro league not to at least double their attendance!

You can bitch about perception - but it looks like it is reality.

of the game.

FMIC is on point.

But the 3 seasons in nba history with the fewest ft attempts?

2012. 2013. 2014.

The 9 lowest ft attempt seasons have all come since 2002. But here we are in an era of excessive whistles and ft that make the game unwatchable

its about as accurate as saying the nfl of today blows because they make the game too hard on qbs and defensive struggles are boring. Its not just mistaken, its actually the complete opposite of true. As wrong as wrong gets.

completely missing the perception is reality point.

The point is most fans do not think there is a reduction in fouls in the NBA.

It would be like people beating the drum that NFL kickers are significantly more accurate now than 10 years ago when they are almost exactly the same.

My perception is that kickers are much more accurate - but it isn't true. Still doesn't change my perception.

you are completely wrong talking about television ratings. no pro league save for the nfl is a bigger product on television than the nba. at this point the nba finals is consistently and petennially more watched than the world series. their regular season and other postseason national games slay baseball. and the impending newtv deal will easily surpass mlb as the 2nd pro sport. theres a reason why the 2nd franchise in the la market just went for 2 billion. revenues are about to explode with the new tv contract. and the signs long term are ridiculously promising. it is along with the nfl the only sport non whites watch in big numbers (key in a browning america), and unlike baseball it is wildly popular among people under 50. about the only demo nba struggles with is the 50 plus year old white guy (presumably you and rocky). as for attendance, im as big an nba fan as any and I havent been to a game in years. not a sign im down on the sport

Maybe the problem is theyre just a dumbass.

In comment 11865985 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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of right means shit if the public doesn't believe it. Ask a casual fan of the NBA if the fouls called are lower now than before. Hell, ask a die-hard fan of the NFL if offensive penalties are significantly down. We see this happen all the time. you tell us how great the NBA is and when people don't agree, it is implied we are racists, or ignorant to the perception that is evident to most out there. I hate to break it to you, but you are in the minority in thinking that there are no issues with the way NBA games are officiated. That's reflected in attendance and ratings. Here is a good attendance look: Code: League Teams Recent Average Attendance 2009 Avg. Attendance Trend Since 2009 Team games per year Source National Football League 32 67,604 (2012) 65,043 +2,561 16 [27] Major League Baseball 30 30,514 (2013) 30,300 +214 162 [28] Canadian Football League 9 28,193 (2012) 28,054 +139 18 [29][30] Major League Soccer 19 18,523 (2013) 16,037 +2,486 34 [31] National Hockey League 30 17,695 (2014) 17,460 +235 82 [32] National Basketball Association 30 17,408 (2014) 17,520 �112 82 [33] It is probably not easy to see in the formatting, but attendance in the NBA is DOWN 112% since 2009. The only pro league not to at least double their attendance! You can bitch about perception - but it looks like it is reality.

My rebuttal is that the NFL attendence and viewership has never been higher even though the product has never been worse.

I am a NBA/NFL fan. And after watching the debacle that has started off this year in the NFL.... I definitely enjoy watching the NBA more. Just my preference. Its sad that the only reason I watch non-giants game is because I have fantasy implications.

could attendance be down 112%? That would mean that the average attendance is -2000 people.

you just got proven wrong on the foul thing.

The perception thing only makes sense if you're going for a post-modernist "there is no real truth" philosophy. This is basically saying "I perceive 2+2 = 5, so it could be true". Or "I perceive that Andy Dalton completes 80% of his passes, so he's a great QB."

If there's less fouls, there's less fouls. The perception that there is more fouls is just incorrect.

that the most watched sport in the world is soccer. It's a LOW scoring game.

Is it just Americans that insist on high scoring? Hell, even hockey is low scoring and has plenty of fans.

The NFL should think this shit over.

can watch college basketball over the NBA because of foul calls. That's just a ridiculous claim.

FTA/FGA = Free Throw Rate

2014 NBA FTr: .284
2014 NCAA FTr: ~.402

As a matter of fact out of the 351 College Basketball schools, a grand total of 2! of them had a FTr that was lower than the .284 NBA average FTr. Those 2 schools had a .283 FTr (Cornell and Colgate).

So that's just a bogus claim. Completely false to a ridiculous degree based on the actual facts.

And it shouldn't take these numbers to prove to you how many whistles you get in the college game. The only difference is that the name in the front of the jersey gets you the calls in college whereas the name in the back of the jersey gets you the call in the NBA. Coach K and Duke get more calls than MJ could ever dream of.

The college game is just so inferior to the NBA game. Worse everything besides environment, the college environment just kills the NBA. But you could say that for football and pretty much every sport.

understand how you can say you liked the NBA in the 90s but not like it now cause of foul calls and then see Joe's data and not backtrack.

I think a lot of the people who like college ball over NBA like it because the athletes don't get paid and/or they have a connection to a university that plays bigtime college bball. The NBA is in a great spot right now and is the #3 most popular sport in the country (behind NFL and NCAAF).

darren rovell ‏@darrenrovell 3m

Roughly same # of people in the US were watching Bears-49ers as people watching final minutes of clinching game of NBA Finals this year.

The NFL runs laps around every other sport in this country, regardless of controversies or frustration with penalties.

In comment 11865881 chris r said:

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The NFL is 2/3 black. The NBA is 3/4 black. Do you really think that that extra 1/12 fraction of blacks is enough to push a racist from loving one league to hating another? That's absolutely shitty reasoning and just a convenient race-baiting way to try to defend a sport you like.

Total BS. If you don't think race plays a factor in why some people don't like the NBA, you're f*cking clueless. I've met people who have all but said that. Obviously that doesn't apply to every person, but it's more than you think.

In comment 11866885 SanFranGiantsFan said:

Quote:

In comment 11865881 chris r said: Quote: The NFL is 2/3 black. The NBA is 3/4 black. Do you really think that that extra 1/12 fraction of blacks is enough to push a racist from loving one league to hating another? That's absolutely shitty reasoning and just a convenient race-baiting way to try to defend a sport you like. Total BS. If you don't think race plays a factor in why some people don't like the NBA, you're f*cking clueless. I've met people who have all but said that. Obviously that doesn't apply to every person, but it's more than you think.

not to miller the thread SFGF, but do you still dislike the Clintons?

I'm ambivalent towards them, & fully expecting them to be everywhere two years hence.

Im not a colin cowherd fan but he had a great open today talking about the nba race aspect. It was in the context of an erroneous image problem some have with the league. Here is a stat.....

since the nba regular season ended in april, over 5 months ago, we have seen one arrest of a player. For a dui on his 27th birthday. Thats all. Greg oden had a domestic violence incident, but he wasnt/isnt on an nba roster right now. One arrest the entire offseason. Training camps about to open shortly

my comments about the perception of the NBA. People can quote arrest stats and foul stats, but I'd guess that the average fan thinks that the gameflow of an NBA game sucks and they think that too many whistles and fouls occur.

The stats obviously prove that the perception is incorrect, but then why is the NBA the only professional league to have attendance decline since 2009?

You can argue that the NBA is awesome and you can quote stats regarding the fouls declining, but what do you think the average fan perceives?

That's a bigger issue and the driving force behind the negative perceptions.

just isn't interesting to me. Outside of massive injuries, it generally plays out as predicted, atleast the top which is all the matters.

There's also the aligning of the stars so to speak which couldn't dis-interest me anymore than it already does, which is why I love the college game, flaws and all.

And then there's why all major pro sports are losing me as a fan, so much money, so much crying, so much attention, etc. I've stepped away and found more important things for me to care about (again, this is just me).

There is a very specific demo that holds these perceptions. Its pretty much exclusively limited to over 50 and white. Everywhere else, across the board, the nba is the 2nd most popular pro sport nationally on television. Its already a more in demand than baseball overall, and projecting these demographic trends forward it will obliterate it within 15 years

I think you couldnt be more mistaken in the depiction of a declining brand. This new tv deal is going to be insane.

NFL = Niche for Felonious Lawbreakers

average attendance declined by 112 people per game. Less than 1%. Hockey and baseball increased by less than 1%.

It's probably because of a new building with lower capacity or because the 76ers suck so bad that people stopped going to their games or just randomness. Those changes are completely meaningless statistically.

Speaking of crimes..

When was the last time an NHL player got arrested for hitting his kid.. or a woman.. or a DUI?

Fuckin right.

you get all bent out of shape when people talk bad about the NBA and bring up race and back up your arguments with stats which I admire, BUT..

I saw you on BBI a few years ago compare the NHL to the KKK and call Ray Guy a redneck after his HOF speech.

There are some sports you are uncomfortable with I'm sure and some people on here are definitely not comfortable with the NBA...I'm not saying it's right, but it's there.

Tolerance is very selective among all of BBI.

In comment 11869427 arcarsenal said:

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Speaking of crimes.. When was the last time an NHL player got arrested for hitting his kid.. or a woman.. or a DUI? Fuckin right.

5 months ago, Ryan Malone...

In comment 11869427 arcarsenal said:

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Speaking of crimes.. When was the last time an NHL player got arrested for hitting his kid.. or a woman.. or a DUI? Fuckin right.

A lot of people say the NHL players are by far the best in these regards.

We are only looking at this through a domestic lense. Internationally, the nba brand is off the charts and has been for about 2 decades, only growing. Guys like lebron, kobe, durant, hell even down to a carmelo anthony or derrick rosr, are WAY bigger international figures than a peyton or brady or rodgers or anyone. Our biggest global iconic sports figures in this country are nba players. Guys like lebron make more in endorsements than peyton, brady, brees and rodgers COMBINED.

In comment 11869435 Sean said:

Quote:

In comment 11869427 arcarsenal said: Quote: Speaking of crimes.. When was the last time an NHL player got arrested for hitting his kid.. or a woman.. or a DUI? Fuckin right. A lot of people say the NHL players are by far the best in these regards.

The NHL's the best in every regard.

In comment 11866504 Sean said:

Quote:

darren rovell ‏@darrenrovell 3m Roughly same # of people in the US were watching Bears-49ers as people watching final minutes of clinching game of NBA Finals this year.

That's insane.

In comment 11869433 BrettNYG10 said:

Quote:

In comment 11869427 arcarsenal said: Quote: Speaking of crimes.. When was the last time an NHL player got arrested for hitting his kid.. or a woman.. or a DUI? Fuckin right. 5 months ago, Ryan Malone...

Ryan Malone doesn't count. He's a crackhead. And a Ranger :(

My point was. It's rare you have many incidents with NHL players off the ice. You rarely hear about any of these guys getting into trouble. The worst you hear is that a couple of guys fuck with the white devil. I can't remember an NHL player recently getting arrested for domestic violence or child abuse.

Giroux got arrested for what.. grabbing an officers ass?

In comment 11869445 arcarsenal said:

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Giroux got arrested for what.. grabbing an officers ass?

Oh yeah, I forgot about that.

Among certain segments of the population mistakingly labeling them as a bunch of criminals off the ice. They just have a no ond gives a shit problem

And ray guy is a redneck. You can feign offense over that if you want, I guess.

In comment 11869442 arcarsenal said:

Quote:

In comment 11869433 BrettNYG10 said: Quote: In comment 11869427 arcarsenal said: Quote: Speaking of crimes.. When was the last time an NHL player got arrested for hitting his kid.. or a woman.. or a DUI? Fuckin right. 5 months ago, Ryan Malone... Ryan Malone doesn't count. He's a crackhead. And a Ranger :( My point was. It's rare you have many incidents with NHL players off the ice. You rarely hear about any of these guys getting into trouble. The worst you hear is that a couple of guys fuck with the white devil. I can't remember an NHL player recently getting arrested for domestic violence or child abuse.

You're right, generally clean cut. Some reported party animals. But the NHL tends to be stuck up in that regard (look at Philly trading some very good players over partying issues, and even the Bruins trading Seguin because he partied hard). You hear some stories about Kane, but few arrests.

The NHL's the best. If we could eliminate Boston and their racist outbursts every time a black player beats them in the playoffs, we'd be all set.

Quote:

There is a very specific demo that holds these perceptions. Its pretty much exclusively limited to over 50 and white.

"Exclusively" is a pretty strong word considering a fair amount of the people just here on BBI who feel this way aren't yet 50, including myself.

I remember in the Jordan years, the NBA was going to become the #1 sport in America by 2010. Then 2010 passed and it is still entrenched as the #3 sport in the US.

Is it just the 50 year old white guys holding it back?

I know.. no one cares about hockey. These arenas were all just full of people who got free tickets and didn't care about what they were watching.

If you are going to rail on the racism act and proudly call Ray Guy a redneck, I'd say that's simply because the way he talks.

Not surprising. He grew up in Georgia and went to Southern Mississippi. Outside of his time in Oakland, he's shied away from the spotlight. Yet, you probably wouldn't know that he has set up punting and kicking camps held across the country.

You probably don't know jack shit about Ray Guy but the way he talks, yet feel confident enough to say that old, white geezers over 50 hate the NBA because of blacks.

Incredible.

In tv audience, the only pro sport it trails in this country is the nfl.

And I dont recall a single person saying in the mj era that the nba would surpass the nfl. They have already surpassed baseball by many indicators and with the way the demographics shape up they will obliterate it within a decade. By the time the new tv deal comes revenues will be insane. Thats why the 2nd team in the la market just went for 2 bil

arc, do a 5 on tv for a cup finals game and get back to me. Nhl tv ratings are closer to the wnba

Quote:

And I dont recall a single person saying in the mj era that the nba would surpass the nfl

Could be because you were 12 at the time and middle schoolers didn't talk about that.

Meanwhile, let me get back to my canasta game with the racist old folks.

In comment 11869469 MarshallOnMontana said:

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In tv audience, the only pro sport it trails in this country is the nfl. And I dont recall a single person saying in the mj era that the nba would surpass the nfl. They have already surpassed baseball by many indicators and with the way the demographics shape up they will obliterate it within a decade. By the time the new tv deal comes revenues will be insane. Thats why the 2nd team in the la market just went for 2 bil arc, do a 5 on tv for a cup finals game and get back to me. Nhl tv ratings are closer to the wnba

Game 6 in 2013 did a 4.7

Fuck outta here with the WNBA comp. It's not even close.

In comment 11869455 FatMan in Charlotte said:

Quote:

Quote: There is a very specific demo that holds these perceptions. Its pretty much exclusively limited to over 50 and white. "Exclusively" is a pretty strong word considering a fair amount of the people just here on BBI who feel this way aren't yet 50, including myself. I remember in the Jordan years, the NBA was going to become the #1 sport in America by 2010. Then 2010 passed and it is still entrenched as the #3 sport in the US. Is it just the 50 year old white guys holding it back?

Who said that again? If you don't like the NBA, you don't like the NBA. Billions of people don't like the NBA, NFL, American Idol, The Sopranos, and everything else. But just say you don't like the NBA. There's no need to fabricate all this stuff to rationalize it.

correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the NBA finals during the Jordan era do as good, if not better than they do today.

The NBA finals generally did anywhere from a 12-18 in the finals in regards to TV ratings, while the average was a 9.3 for this years final. Again, correct me if I'm wrong, but am I off base here?

The Jordan era produced excellent TV ratings.

..
Link - ( New Window )

Its impossible not to come to a conclusion that race is a factor. When over 50 and white is the only demo that prefers college ball to the nba, and does so by like a 3 to 1 margin, that doesnt happen randomly

that is not to engage in some strawman that im depicting all of those people as racists, because im not. But its absolutely a factor. Its the height of disingenuous to claim its not

white guys playing college ball?

In comment 11869475 arcarsenal said:

Quote:

In comment 11869469 MarshallOnMontana said: Quote: In tv audience, the only pro sport it trails in this country is the nfl. And I dont recall a single person saying in the mj era that the nba would surpass the nfl. They have already surpassed baseball by many indicators and with the way the demographics shape up they will obliterate it within a decade. By the time the new tv deal comes revenues will be insane. Thats why the 2nd team in the la market just went for 2 bil arc, do a 5 on tv for a cup finals game and get back to me. Nhl tv ratings are closer to the wnba Game 6 in 2013 did a 4.7 Fuck outta here with the WNBA comp. It's not even close.

Don't worry, hockey fans can think for themselves and don't need other people to like what they like.

#lolgroupthink

In comment 11869477 Sean said:

Quote:

correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the NBA finals during the Jordan era do as good, if not better than they do today. The NBA finals generally did anywhere from a 12-18 in the finals in regards to TV ratings, while the average was a 9.3 for this years final. Again, correct me if I'm wrong, but am I off base here? The Jordan era produced excellent TV ratings.

With few exceptions, you cant directly compare tv ratings apples to apples with decades ago. Because virtually everything is down in sports and broadcast tv except the audience on super bowl sunday in the nfl. There are more channels now, cable is also more widely subscribed to, almost all people have internet in their homes, some choose not to watch live, etc. Its a completely different landscape and there are more options

compare how the nba and mlb have related to eachother over time. 35 years ago the nba finals were on tape delay, mlb was doing 30s for world series games. The nba got off tape delay in the 80s, caught up in the 90s for a brief period with mlb on tv, saw a decline after mj, but have now climbed back to where the nba finals best the world series every year. The ratings for earlier rounds of the postseason and national regular season games gave a much bigger gap than even that

and negatively affects the way the NBA is perceived.

Rocky Thompson said he stopped watching the NBA because of "rap association", and he's far from the only one. Allen Iverson had a huge impact on the game culturally because of the way he looked. He was tatted up, he had corn rows, and he didn't hide where he came from. An entire generation of athletes followed Iverson's example and this turned off a shit ton of people.

I also think race negatively affects the NHL. But I feel like what really kills the NHL is that "ice sports" are viewed as very regional.

In comment 11869489 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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white guys playing college ball?

nope, but its significantly whiter, both overall and even moreso in the makeup of its most relevant figures. Youre fooling yourself if you dont think it plays a role

and arc..... the nhl cup tv ratings are indeed closer to the wnba than the nba finals. A 3 or 4 is closer to whatever the wnba does than it is a 9 or 10, simple math

technically, the ratings for the cup final is closer to the tv ratings for when I wipe my ass after taking a shit, then it is to the nba finals

all sports are impacted by race, both positively and negatively.

The NBA is the most popular sport among young male blacks. So, a decline in attendance would be attributed to racist, white guys, but on the positive side, the league is being infused with attention from young blacks.

MLB is very popular with Hispanics from 30-45 and draws well with hispanics of all ages. But we don't focus on the positives - only the negatives. So when viewership of baseball drops(and the viewers fleeing the sport are predominantly black), should we accuse blacks of being racist for not watching the game anymore?

No. Jerry made the point that millions of people don't like a lot of things above. I agree. But yet, when ever people don't think the NBA is the greatest thing since sliced bread, it HAS to be because we are racist?

Granted, I prefer white bread (especially Wonder bread), but my particular distaste for the NBA is in the fact that it is unwatchable for me. Add in the fact that i don't particularly care for any certain team, and there is little motivation for me to watch. The times I do is to root against somebody, like the Heat, moreso than to root for somebody like the Spurs.

Same reason I don't really care for golf, tennis or the MLS.

Yet, I'm a huge International soccer fan. Does that make me racist against White Americans?

He is, for all intents and purposes, a propagandist for the NBA. Why bother?

to defend it, but there are a ton of NBA haters on this site and it's annoying to read their idiocy when a lot of the things they hate about the NBA is easily proven to be BS.

It's still a completely ridiculous comparison and it's just your way of skewing it in order to prove your assertion that "no one gives a shit"... which is not even remotely true.

There is a huge gap between viewership of the NHL and WNBA. Just because it's not as close to the NBA doesn't mean a damn thing.

Viewership for the SCF in the last 2 years have been higher than they've been in 20 years. Cable viewership was up 10% from just last year and it was the most watched Stanley Cup playoffs on cable in 17 years.

Clearly people care and there's trend upward.

The NBA gets higher ratings. Wonderful. Simple minds enjoy a simple sport. Easy to pick up and play, easy to understand. Hockey confuses a lot of people so they don't get into it. It is what it is. Doesn't mean it sucks.

but:

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when a lot of the things they hate about the NBA is easily proven to be BS.

Perception is often reality. If you ask the average fan what they don't like about the NBA, what are their responses going to be? Probably something about the games appearing to be predetermined and something about favortism and reffing.

You can post all the stats in the world debunking it, but if that's what people feel, that's what they feel.

It is only BS if it is false AND there is no impact on the viewership or attendance.

You'd find the same thing in other leagues too. Fans might say the MLB games are too long and boring. They might say they don't like that HR's are down. But outside of certain trends (related to steroids), HR's are actually up vs. other supposedly "clean" era's.

If perception causes people to not watch, then it is as important as reality, because it has become it.

This started down the race road because of the "rap association" comment, which I saw as clear code. Disagree if you want, whatever. I find that sort of attitude to be something that is present with a good deal of vocal nba haters. Ive seen it verbalized either directly or indirectly too much for you to act like its my imagination. At the same time though, I dont know how many times I have to state that not every 50 plus year old white guy who has a problem with the nba is a racist. Id also go as far as to say that being turned off to a degree by the racial makeup doesnt even necessarily make one a racist. It is to say that race plays a factor. It certainly also does play a factor with its popularity among black children (although its not that simple, we could also talk about economic factors and the relative cost of partaking in each sport).

The nba is getting by with a great deal of white support too. They arent the 2nd most watched pro sport in this country soley on the backs of african american viewership, when they are like what, 12 percent of the usa?

when that rap assosciation comment is made by Rocky Thompson, however, it shouldn't be looked at as the rule - it should be looked at as a guy trying to bait the conversation in a certain way.

Looks like he succeeded.

"perception is reality" argument FMiC.

Perception isn't reality, it's perception. And when perception is so completely off from the actual reality, you begin to question why that difference exists.

The perception of the NBA is further off from the reality off it than pretty much any of the other major sports in the country. So that's why people start to bring race discussions into it trying to figure out if that's the reason why people are so wrong about the sport.

Is too much to grasp. The hockey aspect of this thread bores me as much as the sport itself, youre the one who inserted it here. I frankly dont give enough of a shit to continue it further.

Well, your "the NBA is the greatest because the most people watch it" argument isn't any more exciting, so..

I mean, you've only done this what.. 500 times on this board?

Hockey actually is more complex and harder to grasp than the NBA. I grew up watching both. I understood everything about basketball much faster than I understood all the nuances in hockey. Basketball is more accessible and easier for people to "get". It has more to do with the popularity than you probably realize.

But.. TV ratings.

are horrible every time. Commercial before the kick and Commercial after the touchback. Plus no calendars at home games.

hockey isn't exactly hard to get. All you basically need to know is the concept of the blue line, it's not exactly hard to grasp. Hockey might be a little harder to get than basketball, but this isn't chess vs. checkers we're talking about. They're both pretty damn easy to understand. Baseball and Football are clearly "tougher" to figure out.

The NFL is the most popular sport in this country by far, and it's also easily the hardest sport to understand out of the "Big 4" by far.

Simplicity matters in popularity but it clearly has a limited impact when the NFL dominates the sports landscape in this country.

who else gets up at 4am on xmas eve to drive to a 6yr old youth tournament ... hockey parents...

I think the difference is much more about familiarity than complexity. A lot more people play basketball, so they're more familiar with it.

Personally I don't see much about hockey that's more complex than basketball. Every sport will have it's share of complexity or nuance if you dig deep enough. Basketball looks simple enough, but once you start breaking down all the different ways teams play PnR defense, the way teams try to obtain/prevent corner 3's, etc - there's a lot there. Same with other simple-looking sports like hockey and soccer. There are tons of tactics if you really want to get involved.

Then, of course, there's football which is so complicated that basically nobody really understands it.

not many people have played it. Most all kids grow up playing little league or organized basketball. Most kids will play football with friends, but hockey not so much. It's hard enough just to master ice skating let alone the sport of hockey.

I think that contributes to the fact that it has a very diehard core following, but doesn't appeal to the casual fan.

NBA gets better TV ratings, but that's only because there are more CASUAL fans.

Joe- most people who watch the NBA don't break it down like you do nor could they. You and Osi are two of the best NBA posters on the board, but most people who watch the sport aren't breaking down numbers like the each of you are. Most people can talk LeBron, talk about the teams out west, talk about their own team and watch the playoffs. Ratings=casual fans.

In the context that it automatically makes something better. On this thread, they were brought up as a reference point to push back on the notion that fmic had outlined, ie nba perception has it in decline more than any other sport.

It's not super complex but when you never actually play it as a kid or ever, it's a little tougher to grasp. I played baseball and basketball growing up like most kids did because it was accessible and easy to get into a league and not really expensive. Joining an ice hockey league wasn't really in my parents budget.

It's more of a familiarity thing. But my point is.. most people in this country are more assimilated to the sports they actually played on the playground or in little league. Not many people actually played hockey, so.. they find it more confusing.

And Sean kind of hit on what I'm getting at. The NBA has a TON of casual fans. People who just follow because of the superstars. The LeBrons, the Kobe's, the Jordans.. etc.

You don't really find hockey fans who are drawn to the sport because of Crosby or Stamkos or guys like that. Most people who are into hockey are really into hockey as a team sport.

That's not to say there aren't legit NBA fans. It's just that the types of NBA fans even on this board aren't really the norm. There are things on the NBA threads here that are like a foreign language to casual fans.

Doesn't make one better than the other but to me, I just always felt like hockey had far less casual fans. People who like hockey are usually pretty invested in it as a whole.

Make up the majority of sports fans. They are the difference between carving up a small niche or being something bigger. Do we think most nfl fans are any more than casual? They know the fantasy football guys, 80 plus percent of people watching on a sunday couldnt name 3 offensive lineman on any team but their own. Baseball fans dont even watch baseball games that dont involve their local team. The sport has become incredibly regional

Hockey really doesn't have a lot of casual fans. Most fans are pretty damned hardcore. And while a lot of hardcore hockey fans never played the game (I never did, I can't even skate at all), I agree that the fact that so many people have never played it at all limits its appeal to a certain extent. Virtually everyone has shot hoops at least a bit, or played touch football a few times, so there is much more familiarity.

Hockey also has a really insular us-against-the-world quality to it. A fair number of hockey fans actively do not want it to become more popular for the precise reason that they don't want a lot of casual fans who aren't invested in the sport showing up and trying to change it. For good or ill, that's a common feeling.

In comment 11869625 MarshallOnMontana said:

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In the context that it automatically makes something better.

Right, that's why you're baiting people with that ludicrous NHL-WNBA comparison. Gotcha.

In comment 11869646 MarshallOnMontana said:

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Make up the majority of sports fans. They are the difference between carving up a small niche or being something bigger. Do we think most nfl fans are any more than casual? They know the fantasy football guys, 80 plus percent of people watching on a sunday couldnt name 3 offensive lineman on any team but their own. Baseball fans dont even watch baseball games that dont involve their local team. The sport has become incredibly regional

That's the point, it's casual. When you start breaking down numbers, most basketball fans can't do that. I always get the vibe that the NBA posters are a bit holier than thou with some of the basketball threads here. And a lot of NBA posters seem to suck up to you Joe. Not to throw him under the bus, but didn't you and dep get into a HUGE verbal brawl during the finals 2 years ago? Now it seems dep tries to prove his NBA knowledge to you on some of the threads. I enjoy the NBA, but the threads can become a whole who knows more than who vibe on here IMO.

I dont think the nba is better than the nhl because it is more widely watched.

The wnba thing is just a matter of fact. Is it said to tweak? Sure.

I'm not saying casual hockey fans don't exist or don't make up a portion of the fan bases but I've always felt that hockey was more niche-y than the other major sports. I can't back that up with numbers because there's no way to measure it, it's just the impression I always got.

The NFL is FLOODED with casual fans and even moreso now because of fantasy football in particular and the fact that NFL Sundays are a social event of sorts and a thing people just do.

The WNBA's great. I have no problem with that comparison.

You had to really work to watch games. If you're not truly invested in the sport, you're not going to bother. Even today, only a handful of games are carried by NBC. Most games are on NBC Sports or the NHL Network, and a lot of people don't get those networks. Outside of that, you only have the regional sports networks carrying a local team. That's great if you're a fan of that team, but I'm only going to see a handful of Ranger games on MASN.

In comment 11869671 Greg from LI said:

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You had to really work to watch games. If you're not truly invested in the sport, you're not going to bother. Even today, only a handful of games are carried by NBC. Most games are on NBC Sports or the NHL Network, and a lot of people don't get those networks. Outside of that, you only have the regional sports networks carrying a local team. That's great if you're a fan of that team, but I'm only going to see a handful of Ranger games on MASN.

Yeah, being in NY I get all three local teams, which is great. And I have NBSCN, so I get an extra couple of games that way. But being in Virginia, it's harder for you to get games, I'd imagine.

It's fucking ALWAYS about race. Don't like the NBA? You're a racist. It's strange man.

In comment 11869688 BigBlueShock said:

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It's fucking ALWAYS about race. Don't like the NBA? You're a racist. It's strange man.

It's also about age. I can't wait for the ageist to turn 50 because he thinks it's some magical number.

I think you completely read that situation wrong. Im getting in way fewer spats on nba threads now than a couple years ago for sure, but not because people are "sucking up to me", moreso because I have consciously tried to not be a condescending prick on nba threads, and I was admittedly that at one time.

I do watch the nba a lot, as much as anyone here. I do not think that makes me the most qualified to have an opinion though. We have a bunch of great nba posters here.

I do love the visual though of me being the basketball mr miyagi to deps daniel

I will have NBC Sports this season, which will be nice. I can watch all the Caps games I want (and some Flyers games on CSN), but who the hell wants to watch them? :)

because most fans here haven't seen a good, no decent, product in a looong time. I think if the Knicks were better, people wouldn't be so anti-NBA. I think its bullshit to just call people racists because they don't like the NBA.

In comment 11869706 Greg from LI said:

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I will have NBC Sports this season, which will be nice. I can watch all the Caps games I want (and some Flyers games on CSN), but who the hell wants to watch them? :)

Ha, I still don't have NHLN. I've thought about getting Center Ice, but it doesn't make sense given how many games I get already.

Read my 12:12, im not typing up the same response twice

but I can't get past this race argument....

The NBA is flourishing. Ratings are great, they are making lots of money. The game is great, the stars are great. Everything about the NBA is great. Then you come on a NY site and people are talking about how they haven't liked basketball since the 90's because it's not the same and the conclusion that some draw is that it's because people are racist? Coincidentally, that's the last time this NY team was watchable.

Conversely, it's not racist to not like a sport because you can't relate with the players. Are the ratings for the NHL extremely high among black people? Are black people racist for not watching the NHL or do they just have a hard time relating to the players?

But, yes, my interest in the NBA plummeted due to the Knicks being an awful team for years. It also doesn't help that the teams I hate the most (the Lakers, the Bulls, the Heat, the Pacers, the Celtics) were usually in contention while the Knicks perpetually embarrassed themselves.

It also doesn't help that the NBA is by FAR the most predictable of the 4 major leagues. In any given year, if you asked someone to pick three teams as their most likely bets to win it all, odds are they'll have the eventual champion on their list. There are never more than a handful of teams that have a realistic shot at a championship, and the same teams tend to be in that handful over and over again.

Theres a difference between calling someone a racist and saying race plays a factor. I havent called anyone a racist, just because 5 different posters keep saying it doesnt make it so. And im sure race also does play a factor with african american nhl viewership on some level too

Race was brought up in this thread becausof rockys post, if you cant see racial code in there then I dont know what to tell you

that I was mostly speaking to SanFran. You do seem to "hint" at that often though.

I'd also like to point out that I disregard almost everything that dude says because he has an agenda to stir shit. I'm not sure he believes anything he writes.

Funny how people are saying you bring in race all the time but here you only did it because of RT? The perception is reality. You bring it up all the time.

I bring it up where I think it belongs. I wouldnt have brought it up on this tnread if not for rockys post, choose to believe it or not, I dont care

In comment 11869787 MarshallOnMontana said:

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I bring it up where I think it belongs. I wouldnt have brought it up on this tnread [sic] if not for rockys post, choose to believe it or not, I dont care

Which is in every thread where people say they don't like the NBA.

I wasn't baiting, I was being honest.

MoM, who gives a shit how many people watch the NBA? It's thriving, that's wonderful, Andrew Lloyd Weber is a rich man and his operettas suck, Jimmy Buffett sells out more shows than any other pop/rock artist, his music sucks, Jay Z and Beyonc� are multi millionaires and they suck. The American public paying to see something is certainly no indication of the quality of the product.

It's funny, when I first moved to Wilmington 20 years ago, I used to literally get into fights at the bar because they wouldn't put the NBA playoffs on the TV because NASCAR was on. Fuckin rednecks.

I've watched more NBA games than the average bear, used to literally take notes on what moves Walt Frazier would use and immediately go out and practice them after the game. I can't walk today because I logged too many hours on asphalt, spent all day anticipating a game and the rest of the day thinking about how I played. Still coach youth basketball at the Y, hardly an all white country club.

Gimme Charles Oakley ruling the boards, Mark Jackson directing the offense, Earl the Pearls spin move, Bernard King's unstoppable 17 ft turn around jumper. It was all about team play, cohesiveness, not gimme the money, gimme the ball.

I'm no racist for not watching the NBA anymore, how can you tell what color the players are? There's too many tattoos.

It's ME first, team later, there's no rivalries anymore. The NBA died when Michael, Magic and Larry were done, long live Willis Reed!

Of the most ball movement and least isolation play in a long time, at minimum since the merger. Lots of reasons for this..... rules changes making it harder to just clearout and go 1 on 1 with the scrapping of illegal defense, the 90s was an iso dominant time, not an era to hold up for team play. Their 1 on 1 era led to these rule ch@ges. There has been an increase in european influence that has permeated the game as well, and their brand of ball is much more team oriented. In addition, advanced analytics have changed the way a volume scorer with shakey efficiency is valued.

We are now in a time where the face of the league from a team standpoint is a san antonio squad that is a complete anomaly among champions because of their lack of a current megastar, not so much as a 20 point scorer, just poetic ball movement and skill that led to a dominant offensive attack. And the face of the league from an individual standpoint is lebron james, about as unselfish a superstar as we have seen. 3rd all time in scoring average, but his passing and robotic tendency to make the right basketball play is what makes him

now has his hair back. Not sure if that was noted yet...

and one that's already been mentioned:

Quote:

I don't get this Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy : 12:16 pm : link : reply "perception is reality" argument FMiC. Perception isn't reality, it's perception. And when perception is so completely off from the actual reality, you begin to question why that difference exists. The perception of the NBA is further off from the reality off it than pretty much any of the other major sports in the country. So that's why people start to bring race discussions into it trying to figure out if that's the reason why people are so wrong about the sport.

For most of THIS board, the Knicks have not been good for years, pretty much since Jordan left, so the timing coincides. For most of my generation (let's say 40 year olds, not 50 year olds), we stopped being ardent followers of the NBA when Jordan left. Also, the lockout happened which also contributed to the downward trend.

The few games I did watch post-Jordan were horrifically officiated games. Thus, my perception is that the NBA is a whistle-fest. Then, several years later, I started watching post-season games involving the Heat or Lakers. My perception watching those games was one of continual stoppages due to whistles, and ridiculous flopping from guys like LeBron. So, my perception, which was formed long ago, was "confirmed" in my view. I'd like to think i'm an outlier here, but literally none of the guys who I watched the NBA with or were hard-core fans ever talk about the NBA anymore. In fact, I can't think of a time with friends we've mentioned the NBA, or if we do it is a throw away line about the ridiculousness of the LeBron hype.

I might not be the norm, but it isn't like I've been a lone wolf thinking like this. My point of view has nothing to do with race, but everything to do with a perception - even if that perception is wrong. For me, it has been the reality since 1990.

Tim Duncan rocks.

The only time Carmello Anthony records an assist is if he's tripled teamed or inadvertently bounces the ball off his foot and it goes to another Knick.

What are you an employee of an NBA sponsor? I think I watched Saving Private Ryan while San Antonio was clinching the title, I ain't coming back...

Old white dudes aren't into the NBA because it wasn't all that popular when they were growing up? I mean, how many of those old white guys watch the X games? Or lacrosse? Probably not many. Maybe it has absolutely nothing to do with race, but of course, you always try to connect the dots to bring up race. You seem to go out of your way to try to come across as the guy that "gets it", but instead you come across as predjudiced against old white guys. Which is a bit strange, since you're, you know, white.

In comment 11869694 MarshallOnMontana said:

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I do love the visual though of me being the basketball mr miyagi to deps daniel

Easy there big fella. They are just trying to rip the strong NBA bond we have.

Thats part of it sure. For the 1 millionth time I never made it all about race, but to dismiss it is absurd. You have to be willfully blind to not recognize its an issue the nba has had to deal with and dance around more than any other league in this country in a landslide

Life long. Nothing for me compares to the magical Cup win run of the Rangers in 1994, and I love all my NY sports teams.

That playoff ride of 94 - going out to the local bars packed with Ranger fans (Foleys in Pleasantville NY) and watching every Ranger playoff game and WINNING the Cup was the most into a sports team I ever was in my entire life.

Culminating with the ticker tape parade, that I walked to from my office at 1 world trade center to the corner of Rector and Broadway. Best team ever, best memories ever of a sports team. Fu@# the ratings.

Nothing came close to the passion, fun and emotions of the 1994 NY Rangers.

The nba had a horrid series of events all hit them between 99 and 05ish over a 5 to 6 year span. Just kill shot after kill shot from a pr standpoint

loss of jordan. Lockout. 02 western conference finals officiating display. The brawl at the palace with guys going into the crowd punching fans was a horrible optic. Kobe rape accusation. Donaghy stuff. It was one thing after another and im probably forgetting something. Theyve been coming back from this period for years now and have just now got past it. It was the worst image the league had since the cocaine 70s

And that was the lasting perception I was left with.

BTW, in my previous post, I meant 1999, not 1990

In comment 11869956 MarshallOnMontana said:

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Thats part of it sure. For the 1 millionth time I never made it all about race, but to dismiss it is absurd. You have to be willfully blind to not recognize its an issue the nba has had to deal with and dance around more than any other league in this country in a landslide

I feel ya. If it wasn't for the NFL being 90% white, it too would prolly be in the same boat....poor, poor NBA. Always getting neglected

Thats a pretty ridiculous response. Its not the same even if the racial makeup is similar. One league has pretty much exclusively black athletes as the face and torch carriers representing them. If you were to identify the 10 or so players most associated with the nfl brand nationally, the majority of them are white. Its peyton, its brady, its brees, its rodgers. To even compare it as if the challenge is identical is silly. Race has always been a bigger issue to combat in the nba

In comment 11870081 MarshallOnMontana said:

Quote:

Thats a pretty ridiculous response. Its not the same even if the racial makeup is similar. One league has pretty much exclusively black athletes as the face and torch carriers representing them. If you were to identify the 10 or so players most associated with the nfl brand nationally, the majority of them are white. Its peyton, its brady, its brees, its rodgers. To even compare it as if the challenge is identical is silly. Race has always been a bigger issue to combat in the nba

The NFL brand might include:

Adrian Peterson
Patrick Willis
Cam Newton
Calvin Johnson
Dez Bryant
RGIII
Troy Polamalu,
Colin Kaepernick
Richard Sherman
Marshawn Lynch
Lesean McCoy
Russell Wilson....

You know... Just based off popularity like jersey sales. Are you sure you aren't the racist?

Who knows when the nba gets off tape delay.

Sure it includes those guys, I never said it was all white. But unlike the nba, the nfl is flooded with white faces at the top of the marketing pole. Hell I even see jj watt among non qbs as more omnipresent than anyone you just listed. Its not what the nba faces and has always faced in this country

and how am I the racist? Other than he who smelt it dealt it level logic

In comment 11870116 MarshallOnMontana said:

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Sure it includes those guys, I never said it was all white. But unlike the nba, the nfl is flooded with white faces at the top of the marketing pole. Hell I even see jj watt among non qbs as more omnipresent than anyone you just listed. Its not what the nba faces and has always faced in this country and how am I the racist? Other than he who smelt it dealt it level logic

Out of the top 10 known faces of the NFL 4 might be white as you assert, out of the top 20 it might be 7? top 50? Top 100? How is at most 40% "flooded"? I don't even think in the top 100 NFL players there would be 25 white players.

In comment 11870081 MarshallOnMontana said:

Quote:

Thats a pretty ridiculous response. Its not the same even if the racial makeup is similar. One league has pretty much exclusively black athletes as the face and torch carriers representing them. If you were to identify the 10 or so players most associated with the nfl brand nationally, the majority of them are white. Its peyton, its brady, its brees, its rodgers. To even compare it as if the challenge is identical is silly. Race has always been a bigger issue to combat in the nba

To be fair, this has way more to do with the QB position being probably the most prominent in all of sports than it does race. There's no QB equivalent in the NBA or NHL and in baseball, SP's aren't the equivalent either seeing as they only pitch once every 5 games.

When Vick was starting to "revolutionize" the QB position in Atlanta before all the dog fighting, Ron Mexico garbage, he was all over the place. Ads, jersey sales. He was very, very popular and the NFL had no issue publicizing him and trying to advertise him as the "next big thing."

So I think what you're saying just has more to do with the fact that a lot of white guys are QB's. I don't think they're faces of the league because of their race, I think they're faces of the league because of their positions. I mean, let's be real.. it's hard to make a defensive tackle or offensive guard a face of the league. Even if they're elite players.

I think the numbers are certainly a bit higher than you do. But if we are even to grant your estimations as fact, thats still a significantly bigger presence than the nba, which has virtually a non existent presence. Especially among american born whites. Whos number 2 after kevin love thats currently relevant?, and people in this country who dont watch the nba closely literally largely had little to no idea who he was until he got thrust into the world of lebron a couple months ago.

as the NFL has gladiator type uniforms including helmets and full body gear that make it almost impossible for viewers to distinguish race type amongst players. What is the point here?

I said unlike the nba, the nfl has plenty of white players who they can and do market as faces of the league. Thats why you cant just say "the nfl is almost equally as black as the nba, therefore there is no difference in the challenge they face selling to a predominantly white country".

Thats a bunch of nonsense

In comment 11870145 JPinstripes said:

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as the NFL has gladiator type uniforms including helmets and full body gear that make it almost impossible for viewers to distinguish race type amongst players. What is the point here?

Do you really find it almost impossible to determine if a player is white or black while watching a football game? If you do, I'd suggest upgrading your telly. In fact, I think there just happens to be a new television thread from this morning. You should check it out