NFT: Where do you rank Jerry Garcia in the pantheon...

guitar great, but he wouldn't make my Rock Guitar Mt. Rushmore.

Jimmy Page
Carlos Santana
Eric Clapton
Jimi Hendrix

Garcia's greatest strength was him empathy for the material he played, whether it was R&R, blues, jazz, bluegrass or deep psychedelic space.

Hendrix and Santana ahead of jerry.

studio will never do a guy like him justice, same with Jimmy Herring. Herring can make the axe sing like few before him (and likely after him.)

So I guess pick the criteria on which he should be judged...

Was he as technically proficient as say, a Joe Satriani? Did he have the fretboard gymnastics capability of a Yngwie J. Malmsteen? (J. - I always loved the J. to distinguish himself from all of the 157 other Yngwie Malmsteens).
No not really. He could play though, no doubt.

But take a look at the following he (and TGD) had. He had his own signature bluegrass/folkie inspired style and tone that you could pick out of a heavy mix VERY quickly. He played some interesting melodies and he was extremely adept at improvising solos.


In my view it's how well you marry taste and more importantly musicality and feel to technical proficiency that determines how great you are at playing an instrument...

So based on the second paragraph you'd have to rank him pretty highly.

There are incredible guitarists out there.

Jimi, Duane, Eric, Jimmy Page, etc... But Jerry had this incredible depth of emotion to his playing and he could go anywhere from old standards, to blue grass, to folk, to country to R & B to psychedelia. He was a true virtuoso.

Frank Zappa
David Gilmour
Steve Howe
Peter Green
Jeff Beck


Any of those ring a bell?

is silly.

Hendrix, Clapton, SRV, Betts, Allman, Bloomfield, Page, Zappa, Gilmour all on my list.

god.

Can't deny his talent, but ultimately, his music bores me.

Hendrix, Dave Gilmour, tony Iommi, Trey Spruance, Adrian Belew, Frank Zappa are all better

Jimi
Eric
Page

Beck
Zappa
Allman
Vaughn
Knoffler

The top three are pretty easy. Jerry belongs somewhere in the next group I think. For me it's Santana that doesn't make the cut with this group.

Late 60's - early 70's he was widely considered Top 5. A lot of Dead Heads, but only Dead Heads, rated him as high as Hendrix. As that genre has declined in popularity over the last 40 years so has his reputation. There's also been some additional competition (Stevie Ray, at least for a while).

I could still put him in the Top 10, but it's close. Hendrix is my clear #1.

Listen to "Europa" by Santana. I think he clearly makes it to the Top 10.

As his best Santana was excellent. I just don't think there is a lot of his best. Very limited amount of top work to choose from compared to others.

on your own tastes and what you value most highly in a lead guitarist. I actually don't really prioritize guitar solos as much as I used to, and when they do happen, I want them to have (what I think is) a great tone and a sort of lyricism to them.

By those measures, Garcia's right up there.

For me, the name mentioned on this thread that I'd remove is Zappa. Good, but not in the league of these others, particularly any mentioned for Top 5.

I don't even consider Jerry Garcia when I think of my favorite guitarists.

The best is subjective but I'll play:

Jimi Hendrix
Frank Zappa
Peter Green
David Gilmour
Jeff Beck
Carlos Santana
Stevie Ray Vaughn
Jimmy Page
Steve Howe
Albert King
Eric Clapton
Martin Bare
Buddy Guy
Pete Townshend

Want to give a shout out to Doyle Bramhall II, son of Stevie Ray's drummer, played with Roger Waters and Eric Clapton, distinctive sound, up and comer...

Songwriter, vocalist, the driving artistic force behind the Dead. Their one indispensable member. And if all that counts then Townsend belongs as well.

And then there's everybody else ;)

Winwood are not list worthy

Saw winwood on Tuesday and he still is a fantastic guitarist.

and there isn't anyone alive younger than what - 60? Any young guys who could be on this list? Gary Clark Jr?

In comment 11870022 feelflows said:

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And then there's everybody else ;)

I'm with you.


and Dickey Betts may be the most underrated of all time.

In comment 11869938 Phil in LA said:

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is silly.

^^^^
this

In comment 11870034 Del Shofner said:

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In comment 11869938 Phil in LA said: Quote: is silly. ^^^^ this

I'm with that as well, I have favorites and preferences, but it's all taste and opinions.

In comment 11870029 The Turk said:

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and there isn't anyone alive younger than what - 60? Any young guys who could be on this list? Gary Clark Jr?

Derek Trucks is possibly the best guitarist playing at the moment, and he's young.

but Jerry is probably my all-time favorite. From rockin country and rockabilly stuff, to the blues and R&B covers with JGB, I honestly cannot get enough. Its often talked about how Jerry played the guitar almost like a saxophone at times, running up and down the scales and playing a melody within his leads. I love Jerry.

JGB_Tangled_7/30/77

Hard_to_Handle_8/6/71
^^^^^^HOTTTTTT

Trucks is GREAT - seeing TTB tomorrow night at the Beacon. John Mayer is also a great guitar player - like him or not, his tone is real pretty. Blake Mills also can really play. Jake Bugg is another young guy that can do a lot on the guitar.

In comment 11870058 Lafferty, Daniel said:

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but Jerry is probably my all-time favorite. From rockin country and rockabilly stuff, to the blues and R&B covers with JGB, I honestly cannot get enough. Its often talked about how Jerry played the guitar almost like a saxophone at times, running up and down the scales and playing a melody within his leads. I love Jerry. JGB_Tangled_7/30/77 Hard_to_Handle_8/6/71 ^^^^^^HOTTTTTT

That version of Hard to Handle off of Fallout from the Phil Zone is incredible.

and many more ahead of Jerry imho

...but also interesting to see what non-deadheads think of Garcia.

,

yeah - and I've heard stories that Jerry dropped down to his knees during the high point of that ridiculous lead section. Which just adds to how epic a version that is.

if you want to talk technical

Take away his gazillion effects and then tell me how good he is.

FWIW. Mark is an all time great as well, without question.

by a country mile . . .

Because Hendrix has come up a few times on this thread... i was browsing the diy subreddit yesterday and came across this post by a dude who took 10 thousand wooden dowels of varying lengths (about .5 to 1.5 in it appears) stained them to achieve 4 different shades and placed them side by side to create a contoured mural of Hendrix w/ the big fro. The guy goes on to say he estimates hes got something like 1200 hours invested in this thing and hes got it on ebay.... for 500 bucks.

Im tempted. But my wife would never let me display it anywhere. I dont care so much that its Hendrix. Im just blown away by the artistry.

Hendrix Mosaic - ( New Window )

.

on his right hand. no pun intended

In comment 11870092 SB said:

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Take away his gazillion effects and then tell me how good he is.

It doesn't really matter. The Edge has a sound in his head that's appropriate for their material, and he achieves that sound by relying on something every electric guitarist in this list relies upon to some degree.

.

if you plugged Edge's guitar into his effects rack and handed it to someone, they'd still have a hard time sounding just like him.

Not as hard as, say, sounding like David Gilmour (who, incidentally, also had a shit ton of effects), but hard nonetheless.

.

Gabby Pahanui. I don't have much of his stuff but what I have I like. Unfortunately, he never had access to top end recording facilities and he only recorded late in life.

. Segovia was the best pure guitarist ever

BOMBINO?! Any fans? Just recently heard a few songs.

From 90-00 he was the best guitar player in the world.

But he's not a great guitarist. He's a great musician and songwriter but there are tons and tons of better guitarists. But that is so not the point of Jerry Garcia, how good a guitarist he is.

Freddy King
Freddy King
and Freddy King.

Steve Cropper.

On this site not much love for Eddie Van Halen!

In comment 11870022 feelflows said:

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And then there's everybody else ;)

Don't have any link for proof, but for what it's worth.
Supposedly Clapton said Duane Allman was the greatest Guitarist he ever saw/heard

In comment 11870034 Del Shofner said:

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In comment 11869938 Phil in LA said: Quote: is silly. ^^^^ this

Agreed.

He was a great guitarist. He was great on the banjo too. Just a terrific musician.

Someone mentioned we were only talking about guys from the 60s. Eddie VanHalen was pretty good. I really love Mato Nanji too. Not really in the same league as Jimmi and Jerry et al. Buy solid still the same. Stans right, its silly to rank them.

and style is so subjective. For me, one of the most important things is the ability of a guatarist to complete a group of musicians that he is playing with and that's why I rate Garcia, Clapton and Harrison among others higher than some and guitarists like Stevie Ray Vaughan and Prince lower than some.

But one one name I didn't see that I think doesn't get enough respect is Lindsey Buckingham. Great guitar player and I love his style. When he left Fleetwood Mac in the 80's, they needed 2 guitarists to replace him.

At his peak, Eddie Hazel was one of the best guitarist on the planet.

In comment 11870209 Ira said:

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and style is so subjective. For me, one of the most important things is the ability of a guatarist to complete a group of musicians that he is playing with and that's why I rate Garcia, Clapton and Harrison among others higher than some and guitarists like Stevie Ray Vaughan and Prince lower than some.

That's definitely a legitimate criteria to use, and probably the most truly meaningful. But you're underselling Prince if that's your measure. I don't think there's a style he can't pull off convincingly and would probably compliment any band if his ego allowed strictly being a sideman. As it is, he's sat in with many folks both widely known and lesser known, across many genres, and has routinely killed it.

There was a crappy-quality Youtube video of him sitting in with Sharon Jones and making the funkiest/tightest band currently alive even funkier.

But many guys technically better than him.

Is tops.

e.g.
Technical ability & Speed 20%
Innovation 20%
Musicality 20%
Live/Jam/Improvisation 20%
Body of Original Work (as songwriter or solo composition) 20%

At least this would be a start for this kind of thing....but there's no way we would all agree on things like "musicality" or even "technical ability." But at least this would be a start to getting the dialogue going.

There are many metal guitarists and guys like Vai and Malmsteen that are so technically brilliant, but I would never listen to their music. So I would place a much higher weight for musicality (if that is even appropriate in this example) and Body Of Original work or similar.

Innovation and originality though are huge, which is why Hendrix belongs at the top, even if he is not my favorite.

Garcia is not well appreciated by a lot of snobby guitarists as they tend to go for the Beck or Trower types.

I would have a hard time ranking a lot of people, but I would put Garcia between 5-10.

In comment 11870237 noro9 said:

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But many guys technically better than him.

Not sure what you mean by "technically" here. It is likely almost no one on that list had the versatility or musical knowledge that Garcia had. People often confuse his ability to play over simple chord progressions as lacking technical ability.

Clapton is often considered over-rated because his work is primarily blues or bluesy rock. I can assure you after having tried to play like him for 30+ years, that he still plays 3 simple notes better than I ever have.

So these things are not very obvious to discern....

to playing with some soul, Jerry is hard to beat.

But I agree with Phil, that trying to compare Garcia to say John McLaughlin or Jimmy Page or Zappa is like trying to compare apples, oranges, peaches and bananas. They're all so different and brilliant in their own way.

started out doing little well, but just enough at the right time with the right mix of other factors.

He has since gone on to create a genre almost all his own. Some people grow into it. The talent was always there, but like most people, he had to work for it. He just took a different path.

Clapton didn't know much early on but was a young blues player when there weren't many around crossing over into rock. He has since dedicated his live to music and learning and it shows. He was an early guitar god, but there would be thousands of more talented technical players at a young age better than him now. Many will never get a chance to become any where near as commercially successful due to lack of originality and just fate.

Not fast. But among the tastiest melodically ever. And quite the innovator on tones and effects. He can do it all tho as I said not fast. Knopfler so melodic and original in style and technique. I find it impossible to rank some of these guys.

40 years later and I still listen to him every day.

His solo on Blue Sky is ridiculous...mixolydian perfection...

Then Henrdix, then the rest, including...


Clapton
Haynes
Garcia
Larry Carlton
Steve Howe
Derek Trucks

Yup, real Peach Head here!

When it comes to his tone and playing.

My faves:

(Classics) - Jerry, Clapton, Jimi, Page, Stevie Ray, Knopfler

(Now) - Jim James, Nels Cline, Derek Trucks, Luther Dickinson, Marc Ford, Stephen Malkmus

And do yourselves a favor and check out a 6th grader named Brandon Niiederauer. He is the next rock guitar superstar and lives in my school district.

Brandon Niederauer.

In comment 11870289 dannysection 313 said:

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Larry Carlton Steve Howe

Two of my all-time favorites!

I have to throw another into the mix that I haven't seen mentioned. I think he's a criminally underrated guitarist, and that's because he play with one of the best drummers ever, one of the most technically sound bassists, who also happens to have a voice that no one could mistake for any other.

Alex Lifeson

In comment 11870029 The Turk said:

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and there isn't anyone alive younger than what - 60? Any young guys who could be on this list? Gary Clark Jr?

Kenny Wayne Shepherd is in the conversation.

But when I think of underrated I think Prince or Zappa. Garcia was always known to be a great guitarist with the people I know.

so many forget Skydog but he was an all time great. I love Jimi as a composer and player and Clapton is a virtuoso but Duane could really play. He did not even live to age 25 but listen to his licks on 'Why does love got to be so sad' and you will hear his greatness. He answers every vocal line with a different lick and Clapton joins in for the second solo. Great stuff.

In comment 11870216 Bill in Del said:

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But one one name I didn't see that I think doesn't get enough respect is Lindsey Buckingham. Great guitar player and I love his style. When he left Fleetwood Mac in the 80's, they needed 2 guitarists to replace him.

I always loved his playing and always mention him. Incredible taste and ability.

What he accomplished by the age 24 was unreal. Legend.

the dead was around when I was growing up, mostly ignoring them, I never realized how good Garcia was.

later in life, as I gave more things a chance I had quickly dismissed as an adolescent, I was amazed.

I'm glad I got to see the dead before Jerry died and he was a very talented musician, but even then with all the admiration I have for him I still don't consider him an all time great. I consider him sort of like Frank Zappa, a creative genius, but not necessarily a technician - maybe he was, maybe they both were, but it's not what I appreciate about either.

I find it hard to believe that a guy with Jerry Garcia's innate musical feel and instincts couldn't excel at guitar in almost any genre, as long as he was passionate about that genre. Maybe the virtuoso genres that rely far more on technique than taste *might* elude him, but I've always felt that you can't definitively say someone can't play with speed and precision merely because they don't.

We're not talking about your average weekend warrior who just doesn't have it in him to shred no matter how many hours he puts into practice. A guy like Garcia, he's already got enough innate musical talent to separate himself from the pack. If his practice habits were as disciplined and fanatical as his technical superiors (which I HIGHLY doubt), who knows how he would have played?

as little as I like his music, was certainly a technician.

Zappa is the only guitarist listed on this thread that could legitimately be ranked over Hendrix.
Jimi himself said that Zappa was the best improvisational guitarist he had ever heard.
Zappa introduced Jimi to the wah wah oedal
Without Zappa's "Freak Out" there is no Sgt Peppers
His influence is more far reaching than any other guitarist there was or is

His music is unconventional and incomprehensible to the masses, he was a genius, not everyone gets it

Listen to "Black Napkins", "Watermelon in Easter Hay" or the solo in "Muffin Man" and tell me the man wasn't a genius.

He plays fast and with soul, not easy to do, covers rock, jazz, blues, progressive, classical, Zappa had more range than anyone anywhere at anytime.

This ain't Keith Richards on "Sympathy for the Devil" ( not that there's anything wrong with Smoathy for the Devil but you gotta think when you listen to Zappa, he challenges you throughout his songs.

Give it some time, you'll see it eventually...

Two of my favorites still doing grear work, J. Mascis and Bob Mould. J. Mascis is incredible.

.

Guitarists I like better than Jerry:
Bireli Lagrene (gypsy jazz)
Jeff Beck
McLaughlin
Jimi
Steve Morse
Herring
Page
Winter
Larry Coryell
Haynes
Duane
Alvin Lee
Guy
Charlie Hitchcock
Gilmour
Mike Stern
Roy Buchanan
SRV
Santana
Howe
Betts
Fareed Haque (Garaj Mahal)
Al Schnier (moe.)
Chuck Garvey (moe.)
Tim Palmieri (The Breakfast)
Josh Clark (Tea Leaf Green)

Part of this has do with seeing some of these guitarists much more often than I saw Jerry & Jerry gets too noodly for me at times.

I find that most people who dislike Zappa's music know mostly his crappy 80s music.

If you have Spotify try out Hot Rats or Overnite Sensation.

In comment 11870347 Wuphat said:

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I have to throw another into the mix that I haven't seen mentioned. I think he's a criminally underrated guitarist, and that's because he play with one of the best drummers ever, one of the most technically sound bassists, who also happens to have a voice that no one could mistake for any other. Alex Lifeson

I was going to mention Lifeson also.

A couple other favorites of mine -

Yngvie Malmsteen
Joe Satriani

"Shut up and play yer guitar" was originally recorded in the '80's, possibly the greatest collection of guitar solos found in one spot.

Included Steve Vai and my favorite room worker, Peter Wolf...

Different tastes. I prefer the late 60s early 70s fusion playing better. 80s Zappa was too calculated and crisp for my liking.

Maybe Django Reinhart or John Fahey or Leo Kotke should be mentioned. They're not electric but they are contemporary. Well maybe not Django.

from his left (fret) hand

Although I like " you are what you is", "Joe's Garage" and " Sheik Yerbouti"

His run of 9 albums in a row from " Just Another Band From LA" to "Zoot Allures" is phenomenal.

Gotta say "Overnite Sensation" and "Apostrophe' are my most listened to though.

"Watch out where the huskies go and don't you eat that yellow snow..."

who heavily influenced Jerry. He was enamored with Django's playing style.

Is better than almost all guitarist listed in this thread.

I don't think you'll find many takers!

In comment 11870984 Lafferty, Daniel said:

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I don't think you'll find many takers!

Maybe. Most Americans only listen to main stream music. Phish is too "weird" for their tastes.

My favorites include Dimebag Darrell, John Petrucci, Dave Murray, Marty Friedman, Jeff Hanneman/Kerry King (kinda have to include them together) and Jerry Cantrell.

If phish is too weird, I don't have a chance...

it was done at one of the peaks of his heroin/cocaine use - and despite the drugs, Jerry remained articulate and extremely insightful throughout the interview. There is some really cool stuff in here from his influences (Django) to playing acoustic v. electric, to how Terrapin Station came about.

If you are a big Jerry fan it is worth reading if you haven't already.
Jerry 1985 Frets Magazine Interview - ( New Window )

.

Love that guy more than anything.

Comparing him to others is futile.

In comment 11871004 Greg from LI said:

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My favorites include Dimebag Darrell, John Petrucci, Dave Murray, Marty Friedman, Jeff Hanneman/Kerry King (kinda have to include them together) and Jerry Cantrell.

Greg that is a perfect example of why you really can't rate guitarists as many have already stated. Cantrell technically and "gymnastically" cannot hold a candle to a lot of the guitar players mentioned (and many, many more NOT mentioned)... however I would rather listen to AiC (or even Boggy Depot) than 95% of the recordings by most of the players mentioned... lol. Not that he's a lousy player either... but technically speaking. The way that he an Layne Staley created and meshed together was unreal. And he is a very good song writer in his own right.

As suggested it's silly to rank them, it's all completely subjective (unless you are basing on specific criteria... who reads more, who knows/uses more scales, etc etc etc) but it is a fun discussion.

Later years, which I know many consider a waste/the Dead didn't have it going -- but this recording right here has a sort of mystical vibe to it - it's poignant, emotional, melodic guitar playing from an older than his years Jerry.
Peggy O - ( New Window )

In comment 11871048 Johnny5 said:

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In comment 11871004 Greg from LI said: Quote: My favorites include Dimebag Darrell, John Petrucci, Dave Murray, Marty Friedman, Jeff Hanneman/Kerry King (kinda have to include them together) and Jerry Cantrell. Greg that is a perfect example of why you really can't rate guitarists as many have already stated. Cantrell technically and "gymnastically" cannot hold a candle to a lot of the guitar players mentioned (and many, many more NOT mentioned)... however I would rather listen to AiC (or even Boggy Depot) than 95% of the recordings by most of the players mentioned... lol. Not that he's a lousy player either... but technically speaking. The way that he an Layne Staley created and meshed together was unreal. And he is a very good song writer in his own right. As suggested it's silly to rank them, it's all completely subjective (unless you are basing on specific criteria... who reads more, who knows/uses more scales, etc etc etc) but it is a fun discussion.

Yeah. Not to mention the thousands of great players that nobody has ever heard of and never will hear of. These are are the guys playing in bars for a few bucks and teaching in music stores and what not.

here is a RIPE Friend of the Devil with Nicky Hopkins just crushing it on the keys.
JGB - Let it Rock - Friend of the Devil - ( New Window )

Agreed, which is why I said "my favorites" rather than "the best". I'm not a musician, so I couldn't tell you the first thing about the technical aspects of guitar. All I know is what sounds good to me.

In comment 11871071 Greg from LI said:

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Agreed, which is why I said "my favorites" rather than "the best". I'm not a musician, so I couldn't tell you the first thing about the technical aspects of guitar. All I know is what sounds good to me.

Yep, I wasn't calling you out either BTW, just using your post as a good example of why you can't rate guitar players... lol

I really like Dave Murray (and for that matter Adrian Smith)as well. Petrucci is a technically OUTSTANDING player, but his style and where he goes with his solos doesn't really speak to me as much. And hell Dave Murray brings another great point within the same band... Smith is the more technical player with Murray being more of a blues/improve style, and I like both but probably would rather listen Murray solo. Actually, I take that back.... probably my favorite thing about Iron Maiden is the way those two contrast their solos in pretty much every song.

In comment 11870595 Rocky Thompson said:

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Give it some time, you'll see it eventually...

Oh, I can see that Zappa is a great guitarist and gifted composer and all that. I just don't like the music that results from these gifts.

I didn't mention acoustic guitarists because Jerry very rarely played acoustic. Django, Kottke & Fahey are excellent starts. I'd add Tommy Emmanuel, Paco DeLucia, Mike Marshall, Jorma Kaukonen, Phillip Catherine, Emily Remler, Roy Rogers, Roy Clark, Chet Atkins, Glen Campbell, Kaki King, a bunch of bluegrass guitarists & Django disciples Angelo Debarre, Dorado Schmitt, Sylvain Luc & Thomas Dutronc to the list of the most amazing acoustic guitarists (along w/ a few already mentioned on electric).

Check out "Jack Straw" below. (Starts at 6:00).

Fantastic.
9/14/91 @ MSG - ( New Window )

That was outstanding. Thanks ! I think I was at that show. I saw several at MSG with Bruce Hornsby that year.

If there's a better Jack Straw out there, please let me know...lol

Jerry lights it up. Hornsby knew how to push him.

Thanks for linking it.