If nothing else, can we put the Eli is physically in decline

wasn't paying attention last year or even the first game this year. The Oline was killing Eli, when the line and running game perform, Eli performs.

But they will slither out on the next interception or loss.

Seeing Eli stick it to everyone yesterday. He's done it the past two weeks. He looks really good. If it keeps trending this way he may have his best season yet. Need the defense to up their play like yesterday.

For me personally, I never thought from a physical standpoint that Eli was declining. Not for a second. However, I was starting to buy into comments from the likes of the Jets' Sheldon Richardson that Eli was sort of shell shocked from the pass rushes he had been facing and was always looking at the rush instead of looking downfield. I had fears that even if we fixed the line that he'd still have some residual "David Carr syndrome" play.

I was way wrong it seems, and I should've had more confidence in the man. He has earned it.

labeled as morons that have been pretty steadfast in that sentiment, this offseason.

You know that..We know there's nothing wrong with Eli that a REASONABLE (not great) OL won't dure

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In comment 11875745 Britt in VA said:

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labeled as morons that have been pretty steadfast in that sentiment, this offseason.

Not morons. Just moronic statements

And it was a legit concern, only partially put to rest by Gilbride stating unequivocally it wasn't Eli's physical skills deteriorating. But inferring of course it was the horrendous play of the OL. Fuck I don't know how Eli survived that playoff game vs the 9ers two years ago...

Let alone last season.

With all his INTs and his dopey expressions and the fact that after a decade in the league its been confirmed he has yet to close that slack jaw?

When he was drafted I was kinda like OK, lets see what happens rather than the knee jerk drama over what we gave up to get him (quite a bit as we all know).

All the venom made me like him more. Dude never gets down after his mistakes. He always gets up after the hits, and no matter how bad a day he's had he can always get you a game winning TD late.

He never stops coming at you.

Eli developing a nice touch on shorter passes.

and he will pick you apart and the longer he gets used to this new offense the more that will show especially if we can run the ball like we did yesterday.

The question of Eli's decline was bogus and only brought about, IMO, by those who do not know football. All of this stuff goes hand in hand.

We will not realize how good Eli is until he retires or possibly injured for a long period of time.

The man studies his ass off, works hard every day and cares...a lot. If Beckham turns out to be anywhere near what we hope, this offense could be very special.

Eli was just one more invalid story line being created by guys who don't really understand the teams they are talking about

What was surprising is how many people here, who watch every game, were part of the Eli must go crowd.

There has been some strong language used on this thread to describe those people, can't say I disagree with the sentiment expressed by those posts.

In comment 11875753 BlueLou said:

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Fuck I don't know how Eli survived that playoff game vs the 9ers two years ago... Let alone last season.

that game wasnt pretty, but if you watched you saw what Eli is made out of. That game came down to who can take a beating longer and not phuck up and Eli showed that he's got the guts of a wolverine. He took that beating and outplayed Rogers and Brady straight up.

He will never be the pinpoint fantasy beast that his brother or some of the other guys are but that makes him even more likable to me. Yea... he's a goober, but he's our goober and he just keeps getting back up.

In comment 11875753 BlueLou said:

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And it was a legit concern, only partially put to rest by Gilbride stating unequivocally it wasn't Eli's physical skills deteriorating. But inferring of course it was the horrendous play of the OL. Fuck I don't know how Eli survived that playoff game vs the 9ers two years ago... Let alone last season.

Why was it a "legit concern?" You've seen this OL the last few years..

But Parcells recently said that Eli won him over for life after his beat down against the Niners where he never quit, in spite of the beating he took. That, despite the beating, he got off the canvas and beat the Niners

It was speculated by more than a handful of posters that the Giants should entertain the idea of cutting Eli at the end of the year and auditioning Nassib as the answer at the QB position going forward. Nevermind that the odds of the Mara family abandoning Eli have got to be miniscule but it would almost be justice for those fans to see Eli go on to St. Louis, Arizona, or even Houston and have success similar to that of which he's normally enjoyed when given support up front.

was very sharp yesterday and had a nice touch on his swing passes to the tight ends.

the one play yesterday though that showed eli's physical limitations was the watt sack....i think most starting QBs would be quick and agile enough to avoid the first rush by watt and scramble to the outside, but eli couldn't get out of the way; also contrast to fitzpatrick who is no usain bolt who pulled the ball down and ran effectively on a number of occassions when the play broke down.

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In comment 11875776 BurberryManning said:

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It was speculated by more than a handful of posters that the Giants should entertain the idea of cutting Eli at the end of the year and auditioning Nassib as the answer at the QB position going forward. Nevermind that the odds of the Mara family abandoning Eli have got to be miniscule but it would almost be justice for those fans to see Eli go on to St. Louis, Arizona, or even Houston and have success similar to that of which he's normally enjoyed when given support up front.

My only disagreement with your post is with the word "miniscule." I would change it to ZERO..

Said it all, to be honest. If the team plays well around Eli, we have no QB problem at all, if he has to do it all himself, he or anyone else as a QB will fail. Even Peyton, as good as he is, has a very good team around him. Take a good look at Kapernick, 2 years ago he was the second coming, now he is 1-2 and looks bad. Maybe the team is not playing as well as they can, maybe its not all him. You can do this for every team, look at the Bengals, now they have a great roster, and right now the QB is great, if he does not win a playoff game, even if he goes 14-2, he will be a bum again, its not only Eli, its every QB and every town.

into the top 20 ALL-TIME passing yardage and TD passes, third longest iron man streak, two SB MVPs, at the peak of his career. Surely we can find a fourth rounder with strong pre-season experience to replace him.

(I don't), he was a big part of Jennings' day on the ground yesterday. Reading the defense and switching plays at the line, accordingly. Don't forget that.

Eli had much more of a focused look yesterday ... The goofy, aw shucks, WTH is going on look was gone and he looked much more comfortable with the game plan. It was one of those days where it looked the brothers switched teams.

Eli will play close to his brother's longevity and our next QB will be then Badger Austin Kafentzis (assuming we can get him). You heard it here first!!!

Eli will play close to his brother's longevity and our next QB will be then Badger Austin Kafentzis (assuming we can get him). You heard it here first!!!

it kind of comes off as over crediting Eli. Sure, Eli makes the calls at the line, but Jennings' big day had much more to do with the OL and Jennings running like a mad man.

but there was legit concern about whether he was worth the money he was getting and would he (and TC and others) be in the long term plans of the Giants.

When you stink for a year and half consistently, those questions tend to get asked.

Anyway, he has looked good fr the better part of 2 games now - I mean real good. This is the type of QB and type of offense I wanted and why I was so excited to see a change in the OC.
Furthermore, if this is the quality of the Oline going forward, we should have many more fun Sundays coming up.

people will say the same things again. I doubt you can put that talk to rest.

He's 33 years old. of course he's in decline.Doesn't mean he can't play another 4-7 years.

My self I said all along Eli ainthe problem and all these guys crying for him to go are gonna be crying for years after he's gone annointing this one and that one as the next coming of Eli Manning, but I still think we will all be older men by the time we see the likes of him in NY again, if ever.A lot of us are gonna be dead by the time a Giant comes along and beaks all his records, I think.

is what makes this site come off as ridiculous at times. To argue that an 32 year old NFL QB with 10 years of starting experience might be physically declining isn't so far fetch. (Of course this statement ignores the fact that many of the people making this claim did not back up their assertions with evidence, not even the old fashion "eye-ball" test results.)

Now placing a large portion of the blame for his recent subpar play on that possible physical decline is what makes those statements silly as it's implied that the downward tend in Eli's play is irreversible.

since he never had much mobility to begin with. The difference between him and Fitzpatrick was pretty remarkable. Eli would have been sacked ten times if he was a Texan yesterday.

On the other hand it was great to see him with such a good pace yesterday. This O is fast enough so that he could he could make it quite a few more years before father time/injury bug catches up with him.

On another note though, while his play the last couple weeks has been encouraging, lets not get ahead of ourselves and act like he is beyond having tough questions asked about his future this offseason. These last couple games dont erase everything that has transpired pretty much since hurricane sandy minus a meaningless week 17 game in 2012 against an eagle team that quit. And of course, like every other qb who has ever lived his life is easier with good protection and a running game. But he is far from beyond facing questions about his future unless this keeps up.

In comment 11875889 David in LA said:

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it kind of comes off as over crediting Eli. Sure, Eli makes the calls at the line, but Jennings' big day had much more to do with the OL and Jennings running like a mad man.

Big part, integral part, whatever you want to call it. Yes, the line and Jennings were awesome yesterday, no doubt. But Eli identifying the defense and changing the play accordingly certainly play into that.

It was more of a statement about Eli being sharp, than meant to be a detraction of Jennings or the line. A statement meant to be independent from Jennings' or the line's performance.

Would it be fair to pin blame on eli for calls made (and not made) at the line against certain defensive looks. Or does he only get credit when the run game flourishes

we can't. We need to see what he's like at the end of the year. Right now, I agree that he looks good physically, but let's see how this movie ends. I also wish people would stop using his brother as proof that Eli can play effectively into his late thirties. They have had two different careers, and his brother has had several very serious neck surgeries.

Even if he's physically capable of still playing, we need to know that he can still produce results. He certainly showed yesterday what he can still do behind a solid OL. He can still make some tremendous throws, including the TD to Fells. That's as good as it gets, even by NFL standards. In fact, he's done a lot with an OL that has frankly been bad the last few years.

But he also threw 27 INTs last season, and has thrown 100 in the last five years. Not all of those were "miscommunication INTs" between him and his WRs (i.e. Randle). He's made some hideous passes. He's a gunslinger by nature, and understandably gets frustrated when the offense isn't moving. He is also 33.

Remember that the Giants choose not to renegotiate his contract at the end of last year. They obviously wanted to see if he could stay healthy and produce. Those are legitimate questions for any athlete in any sport over the age of 30, especially in a game as violent as professional football.

I was against paying him $17M next season. But if he continues to play well and stays healthy, that is what I would probably do. You eat the cap hit to postpone the decision about what to do with Eli for another year. That also gives you another year to evaluate Nassib.

the running game is key. Give Eli a running game and ELi wins a lot of football games. You can that about many good QBs but not all of them.

IF this team runs the ball they will compete for a playoff spot. That's the goal this season -- Run the ball, win enough games to ward off the pitchforks and give Coughlin and Eli one more shot at postseason glory over the next couple of seasons here.

I'm not sure if this current roster is deep and talented enough to make a legit postseason run but the goal should be to build a winning foundation and set the bedrock for a run next year. Yesterday was a start. A very 2010 like performance--I mean that in a good way.

In comment 11875933 MarshallOnMontana said:

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Would it be fair to pin blame on eli for calls made (and not made) at the line against certain defensive looks. Or does he only get credit when the run game flourishes

Depends on what you see, but sure.

he gets the blame for everything else when we lose, so wouldn't that just be par for the course?

He can't stand it that Eli is doing well

He's no Kaepernick, but he moves around in the packet fairly well. He also looks good to me on the designed rollouts.

they're probably going to win a decent amount of games, assuming you also have a non-historically-terrible defense in play.

The actually good to great QBs are the ones who aren't dependent on the run to be successful or at least not play like one of the worst QBs in the NFL.

new footwork, an offensive line that also is a work in progress, without a clear number 1 receiver, and a still work-in-progress tight end and he didn't light it up in pre-season and had a tough outing in game 1. Over-the-hill, shell-shocked, forked, blah, blah, blah. Amazingly stupid or just another example of emotionally immature, instant-gratification seeking dolts with little critical thinking skills.

In comment 11875994 Riggies said:

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they're probably going to win a decent amount of games, assuming you also have a non-historically-terrible defense in play. The actually good to great QBs are the ones who aren't dependent on the run to be successful or at least not play like one of the worst QBs in the NFL.

As though Brady and Peyton would have done anything to speak of with the OL we've had the last two years

surely has to go in part to the replacement of Gilbride by McAdoo. Here you have a qb with excellent vision who can spot patterns in the defense, and he was getting up to to the line with no time to make such adjustments far too frequently under Gilbride.

It is soooo refreshing to see Eli get to the line, make two or three hand and verbal adjustments, and STILL have 8 or 9 seconds left on the clock. For years, I had gotten into the habit of worrying whether Eli was going to get the play off in time. That was never fun, nor useful.

...the franchise QB.

He plays better the bigger the game.

He can make any NFL throw that a coach can draw up and he will do so under duress.

He is level headed at all times regardless of in-game or season wide results.

He makes all around him better, you think Donnell would be lighting it up with most QB's? How many under the radar TE's producing will it take for everyone to realize Eli plays a large part in making these guys better. Imagine if he had a real top notch TE?

I do not understand how anyone can question Eli? Nassib? The odds of him being a QB a fraction as good as Eli are almost zero.

There are no QB's playing today whose resumes exceed Eli's. Picks? Who cares really, the guy is a gunslinger. Where you cheering when he hit Tyree in '07? Where you cheering when he hit Manningham in '11? Those were two of the best plays in Super Bowl History. Eli has done them both. The reason he has made these great plays is the gunslinger mentality.

Now that Eli is in a new system, and it seems it has taken him all of two games to look like he has been playing in it his whole life, he will have the precious completion percentage and QB rating that so many put so much stock in. Once that happens what will the excise be? What will fans and "experts" use to bring him down a notch? Truthfully I ham curious to see what they will use.

Eli in my opinion is one of the most underrated players in the NFL. Ask yourself this, think the Texans would take Eli? How about the Rams? How about any team looking to make noise. The crosstown Jets? Would Eli make them better? I think so.

Eli is a once in a generation talent and he plays for our favorite football team. The Giants can roll Eli out in a wheelchair at 40 plus for all I care, at least I know he will give the team a punchers chance to win.

In comment 11875987 PatersonPlank said:

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He's no Kaepernick, but he moves around in the packet fairly well. He also looks good to me on the designed rollouts.

People who watched Eli play in college know that that's how he used to play.

And there are those who will also give him almost all of the credit in wins and point fingers elsewhere in losses to shield him

he has played pretty well the last couple weeks. I think its fair to say though that he is not beyond needing a good year here to avoid tough questions about his future. I dont think he is incapable of that by any stretch, and im a lot more encouraged than I was 2 weeks ago. But coming off the last year and a half, this is a prove it year for a lot of people including him

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In comment 11876020 Big Blue '56 said:

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In comment 11875994 Riggies said: Quote: they're probably going to win a decent amount of games, assuming you also have a non-historically-terrible defense in play. The actually good to great QBs are the ones who aren't dependent on the run to be successful or at least not play like one of the worst QBs in the NFL. As though Brady and Peyton would have done anything to speak of with the OL we've had the last two years

I don't know whether they would have or not. I've been more than clear, in general, that I've thought Eli was handed a pretty terrible hand though and that he'd have been (and, frankly, still very well may be) better off splitting ways from this team while he does still have the physical tools.

My comment was in reference to djm's post about how Eli can win games if he can lean in the run game -- most non-terrible QBs can do that, assuming okay defense. Saying he can, implying he needs that, isn't a compliment to him or defense of him.

Eli looked the same to me as he did five years ago. Give him time and a solid running game and he will perform well. His accuracy improves when he steps into his throws and he still has good,not great,velocity. The problem we have is that our o-line,and receivers aren't very good and Eli isn't athletic enough to buy time to help the o-line and receivers.

gotcha

There are the fans that supported drafting him that are apologetic towards schemes and players around him and view his SB accomplishments as validation that he is the goods.

And then you have the fans that hated the pick that have seemed to root against him at every point in his career when he isn't winning a super bowl. At any opportunity they try write him off typically only to be proven wrong.

In comment 11876022 rocco8112 said:

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...the franchise QB. He plays better the bigger the game. He can make any NFL throw that a coach can draw up and he will do so under duress. He is level headed at all times regardless of in-game or season wide results. He makes all around him better, you think Donnell would be lighting it up with most QB's? How many under the radar TE's producing will it take for everyone to realize Eli plays a large part in making these guys better. Imagine if he had a real top notch TE? I do not understand how anyone can question Eli? Nassib? The odds of him being a QB a fraction as good as Eli are almost zero. There are no QB's playing today whose resumes exceed Eli's. Picks? Who cares really, the guy is a gunslinger. Where you cheering when he hit Tyree in '07? Where you cheering when he hit Manningham in '11? Those were two of the best plays in Super Bowl History. Eli has done them both. The reason he has made these great plays is the gunslinger mentality. Now that Eli is in a new system, and it seems it has taken him all of two games to look like he has been playing in it his whole life, he will have the precious completion percentage and QB rating that so many put so much stock in. Once that happens what will the excise be? What will fans and "experts" use to bring him down a notch? Truthfully I ham curious to see what they will use. Eli in my opinion is one of the most underrated players in the NFL. Ask yourself this, think the Texans would take Eli? How about the Rams? How about any team looking to make noise. The crosstown Jets? Would Eli make them better? I think so. Eli is a once in a generation talent and he plays for our favorite football team. The Giants can roll Eli out in a wheelchair at 40 plus for all I care, at least I know he will give the team a punchers chance to win.

Outstanding post

In comment 11876022 rocco8112 said:

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...the franchise QB. He plays better the bigger the game. He can make any NFL throw that a coach can draw up and he will do so under duress. He is level headed at all times regardless of in-game or season wide results. He makes all around him better, you think Donnell would be lighting it up with most QB's? How many under the radar TE's producing will it take for everyone to realize Eli plays a large part in making these guys better. Imagine if he had a real top notch TE? I do not understand how anyone can question Eli? Nassib? The odds of him being a QB a fraction as good as Eli are almost zero. There are no QB's playing today whose resumes exceed Eli's. Picks? Who cares really, the guy is a gunslinger. Where you cheering when he hit Tyree in '07? Where you cheering when he hit Manningham in '11? Those were two of the best plays in Super Bowl History. Eli has done them both. The reason he has made these great plays is the gunslinger mentality. Now that Eli is in a new system, and it seems it has taken him all of two games to look like he has been playing in it his whole life, he will have the precious completion percentage and QB rating that so many put so much stock in. Once that happens what will the excise be? What will fans and "experts" use to bring him down a notch? Truthfully I ham curious to see what they will use. Eli in my opinion is one of the most underrated players in the NFL. Ask yourself this, think the Texans would take Eli? How about the Rams? How about any team looking to make noise. The crosstown Jets? Would Eli make them better? I think so. Eli is a once in a generation talent and he plays for our favorite football team. The Giants can roll Eli out in a wheelchair at 40 plus for all I care, at least I know he will give the team a punchers chance to win.

One of the best posts I've seen on here in a long time.

In comment 11876042 Marty866b said:

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Eli looked the same to me as he did five years ago. Give him time and a solid running game and he will perform well. His accuracy improves when he steps into his throws and he still has good,not great,velocity. The problem we have is that our o-line,and receivers aren't very good and Eli isn't athletic enough to buy time to help the o-line and receivers.

I don't mean to nitpick your post as I totally agree with your premise... but I hate your use of "five years ago" It's really only been 1.5 years of poor play that coincidentally has coincided with the collapse of our offensive line.

Some here act as if it actually has been 4 or 5 years since Eli was a good football player. Less than 3 years ago He was hosting the Lombardi.

Again, I have zero issue with your post and it's premise, but I feel like some of us (not you) need a reminder to how recently Eli has been a dominant star QB.

Was an apologist early on, became more critical of him as his career advanced. Never got to the point where I advocated moving on, im at the point now where he needs a year here to avoid it

if we are being honest, he hasnt been as good individually as I expected coming out of ole miss. But a better qb doesnt guarantee the 2 sb wins we have, so I have no regrets. He has had a weird career that makes classifying him almost impossible. Game in game out, week in week out, season in season out, this has been an average to a tick above average qb for the better part of his career save 2011 and 2013 (throwing out his rookie year), with two very well timed month stretches that completely change the conversation.

By Brett Favre's picks nearly as much. Eli has another SB than he and it will be interesting to see how he gets in to the HOF so easily while people question Eli. Moving to more of a WCO probably just extended Eli's career about 2-3 years. Also for all of his supposed lack of athleticism he's missed how many games while getting the shit beat out of him the last 3 years?

Dude is a tough SOB and he gets zero credit for it. Especially from some Giant fans. The OL is still not the greatest but w this offense he will make it look good enough. Without Eli this team wins 2 games last year and wouldn't have a shot at anything this year.

we have to establish this season is that Eli is a quarterback around whom we can build the next championship-contending team. So far, so good.

Maybe it's just because it's something new, but I'm really enjoying this new offense - particularly the design of the passing game. Like other West Coast systems, it seems like there are at least five "gimme" completions every game, rather than everything being intermediate or deep routes. I was among those worried about Eli being built for that type of attack, but he's doing great with it. Can't wait for Beckham to settle in - we're one receiver short right now.

..disagree that Eli has been average or just above average. The majority of his career.

His resume is outstanding. It speaks for itself.

Call me a homer if you will but it Eli's career is average, what does a great career look like?

averaged 3.5 ypc, 85 yds a game. This was overcome and overshadowed by Eli's performance --more than 4,700 passinbg yards -- on the way to the SB championship.

In comment 11876103 MarshallOnMontana said:

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Was an apologist early on, became more critical of him as his career advanced. Never got to the point where I advocated moving on, im at the point now where he needs a year here to avoid it if we are being honest, he hasnt been as good individually as I expected coming out of ole miss. But a better qb doesnt guarantee the 2 sb wins we have, so I have no regrets. He has had a weird career that makes classifying him almost impossible. Game in game out, week in week out, season in season out, this has been an average to a tick above average qb for the better part of his career save 2011 and 2013 (throwing out his rookie year), with two very well timed month stretches that completely change the conversation.

I agree with most of this, but I don't think he was "a tick above average" save for those elite runs. I think Gilbride's system was such that it made it difficult for him to put up the elite QB percentage and avoid INTs (he usually was very good with the yards and TDs). Gilbride's system encouraged chemistry perhaps more than any modern day coordinator's. As a result, when Eli was in sync with his receivers we were unstoppable. When he wasn't, we looked like the biggest joke in the NFL.

I do agree about him being unclassifiable though. There was recently an article posted here that grouped all the NFL starting QBs into different groups. Something like: Elite, Solid, Mediocre and Poor... except Eli Manning had his own category because who the Hell knows what you're gonna get. He really is in a category of one.

Was a 3x consecutive mvp. The only one in the history of the league. Threw for over 500 tds including 9 seasons with 30 plus (compared to elis 1) despite playing the overwhelming majority of his career before the passing numbers got silly.

There is no comparison with regards to hall of fame chances, favres half decade heart of his prime was one of the best qb primes in history, arguably the best of the 20th century. The only similarity is they are both pick prone, but eli even moreso in an easier time for qbs

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In comment 11875884 Jay in Toronto said:

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Eli will play close to his brother's longevity and our next QB will be then Badger Austin Kafentzis (assuming we can get him). You heard it here first!!!

You really think they'll take him if Stan "Stinky" Kuntzantookus is available?

He takes entirely too much criticism from the national media - ESPN and NFL Network in particular. People see him as a punching bag, which I think is ridiculous. The fact that he's never missed a game due to injury should earn him the ultimate respect as a "gamer" among his peers, and the rings should of course earn him the respect due a champion. How some people could deny him that is beyond my comprehension.

Week in and week out though, it's been more of a roller coaster than I thought. I figured we'd pencil in 4K yards and 35 TDs every year, with more Pro Bowl appearances and MVP votes. But I sure as hell would've signed up for what we've gotten.

that when Eli has had enough time, (and a running game) he pushed a number of otherwise so-so receivers substantially better: Steve Smith flourished with him. 3-4 TEs. And this year, working with a below-average wr corps and TEs that were supposed to be a disaster, he has made them all look very good when they weren't dropping the ball.

Without the 5 drops last week including 3 by his supposed star receiver, this two-week run would be one of his best ever--still without star wr's or TEs and with an OL still a work in progress.

Especially when durable. Thats not an insult. Save 2011 and 2013, I think thats generally where his career lies. You can do a lot worse. There is a desire to associate an elevated level of greatness to him to explain the superbowls. I dont feel the need to do that. He was certainly no bystander on those teams. But we have to be real about the fact that there was a good degree of randomness and fortune involved in those 2 months too. I happen to think if we could somehow simulate this eli era 1000 times, 2 sb wins would be about the most amazing outcome imaginable and that happened to be the one that played out.

arm strengh easily there, and he's still moving around like he always has after surgery on that ankle. Mentally, I have always felt his understanding of the game is second to none.

The guy keeps himself in great shape obviously.

I've said this since his second year, you need to put good players around Eli, and if you do, there will be big time plays.

Right now, the talent is a bit lacking but I have to admit I am a bit optimistic how he is running this offense, and the progress they have made from Week 1.

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In comment 11875879 spider said:

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Eli had much more of a focused look yesterday ... The goofy, aw shucks, WTH is going on look was gone and he looked much more comfortable with the game plan. It was one of those days where it looked the brothers switched teams.

So this is the weekly shit on Eli thread. I was wondering where all the haters went? Two super bowls and you call your QB goofy look.
Nice!

In comment 11876192 MarshallOnMontana said:

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Especially when durable. Thats not an insult. Save 2011 and 2013, I think thats generally where his career lies. You can do a lot worse. There is a desire to associate an elevated level of greatness to him to explain the superbowls. I dont feel the need to do that. He was certainly no bystander on those teams. But we have to be real about the fact that there was a good degree of randomness and fortune involved in those 2 months too. I happen to think if we could somehow simulate this eli era 1000 times, 2 sb wins would be about the most amazing outcome imaginable and that happened to be the one that played out.

He's certainly better than Favre, who was one of, if not the most, overrated players around. Talk about interceptions, big-game-losing brain farts, and one, count 'em one, SB victory. The MVPs are impressive, but may be due as much to the ESPN hype machine as anything else.

with the Eli debate is that supposedly intelligent posters seem to completely underestimate the importance of a offensive line. They'll pin the INT's on Eli saying that he threw the ball without pressure. Well, if you are Eli and constantly flushed out of the pocket, you will force balls to try and make plays.

A lot of people don't understand the "why" behind the mistakes. They are much like the NFL talking heads who see the stats and make sweeping arguments.

I watched the game yesterday with a bunch of Panther and Steeler fans, and there was a discussion about why eli takes shit. They were saying he's the only 2-time SB winner to get plowed by a lot of people, and even they understood the OL issues. In fact, one guy drew a really good parallel to Big Ben in that his play has suffered over the past two years because the Steeler line is a mess.

Yet, Eli gets killed by his own fans. Fans who should recognize what a poor o-line can do and fans who should be able to have seen - twice - what Eli has done.

But I don't get it. Even when eli was winning two SB's, you have some jacknuts here trying to say at one time or another that Eli was no better than Sanchez, Freeman, Romo, Cutler, and other players who either fit into the group of players who have won nothing or are now out of the league.

It really boggles my mind the backlash he gets, almost as if winning two SB's makes some fans irrationally think he should win one every year.

Spoken like someone who only recalls the back portion of favres career, which still compares favorably to elis prime

Eli over favre for prime, peak or career is one of the dumbest things ever uttered in the history of western civilization. Lowest common denominator ring counting is about the only thing to cite.

Comparison that pissed me off. What a tool that guy is who said that. Also some clown called him captain scattergun! These are Giants fans? This guy gave us two Lombardi trophies.

I was a big fan of the analysis somebody did trying really hard to show that sanchez "leading" the Jets to two AFC Championship games was much more impressive than Eli winning two SB's, replete with commentary on how Sanchez was the driving force behind the wins while Eli was simply a "game manager".

To me, that was the epitome of somebody looking to bash eli unnecessarily. It was radar-like in its attempt to be contrary. Any other 2 time SB-winning QB is an icon, yet even his own team's fans try to lessen the achievements. How the fuck is that possible?

Im pretty sure youre referring to me, in addition to completely botching what I said. Be nice if you both mentioned me and didnt willfully slant what I said

I said sanchez play in those 2 postseasons was roughly equivalent to elis run in 07. I stand by that. I didnt say anything about 2011 (this whole back and forth even took place before 2011, talk about willfull dishonesty). And I never said sanchez was better than eli. Keep knocking down those strawmen though

and interceptions are usually the result of multiple factors. Rarely is all blame on the qb. But given eli manning is the leader since 04, 05, 06, 07, 08, 09, 10, 11, 12 and 13, (yea, not a typo, make the cutoff whenever you want, literally any year since he began) its fair to say the constant might just be that he is pick prone. But I know, he won 2 sb, so.........

is the notion that there was some randomness to Eli's great 2011 postseason. I think we all knew we'd have a puncher's chance in the playoffs, given how ridiculously well Eli played that year from start to finish. They key was finding our way in, which was much harder than it should've been. I was not surprised in the least with the way he performed that month. I actually thought the San Fran and New England wins would be more lopsided.

The rest doesn't matter IMO. Peyton Manning broke every record last year...if I were a Bronco fan I wouldn't care.

I have no idea if that is you or not. I'd hope it wasn't since you normally have some decent insight.

My point is that the lengths people seem to go to discredit or lessen Eli's achievements is pretty embarrassing. If you still stand by things like that - maybe I've misjudged you.

In comment 11876330 bceagle05 said:

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is the notion that there was some randomness to Eli's great 2011 postseason. I think we all knew we'd have a puncher's chance in the playoffs, given how ridiculously well Eli played that year from start to finish. They key was finding our way in, which was much harder than it should've been. I was not surprised in the least with the way he performed that month. I actually thought the San Fran and New England wins would be more lopsided.

I agree with you about San Fran and NE. I thought both would be 10+ point wins. I thought we had an awful game plan in XLVI and should have aired it out a lot more against their weak secondary.

Also, Eli took a huge step in 2009, partly forgotten due to Sheridan. He was great in 2010 as well, but had a ton of picks (and had a shitload of bad luck that year - more than any other, imo). He really put it all together in 2011.

That sanchez play in the 09 and 10 postseasons combined was highly comparable to eli in 07. Absolutely. Difference being sanchez defense had a letdown that elis never did. Its not really an outlandish position to view their performance individually in this select rough handful of games that way, unless you want to just throw made up strawmen on top of it as you have.

Eli had much more ownership of the 11 team

Eli is by far my favorite athlete of all time, isn't the whole point of EVERYTHING that is done by each NFL franchise to win a Super Bowl? That is all that matters, that is the goal and the Coughlin/Eli administration has done it twice.

I'm a Giant fan and I'll always be appreciative of Eli and anyone on those SB teams. This is all I need to know, go rewatch the NFC title game from January 2012 and the beating Eli took in that game. I'll remember that and not the picks in November.

yesterday he was incredibly accurate, got the ball away fast and was really good. Have been saying the new offense doesn't suit Eli's skill set. Guess I was Wrong.

In comment 11876272 MarshallOnMontana said:

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Spoken like someone who only recalls the back portion of favres career, which still compares favorably to elis prime Eli over favre for prime, peak or career is one of the dumbest things ever uttered in the history of western civilization. Lowest common denominator ring counting is about the only thing to cite.

Wrong on all counts.

makes boneheaded plays. For some reason, Eli's boneheaded plays stick in our heads. My 'fave' is one from several years ago: a left handed basketball style alley oop INT in the endzone.

Let's be fair: Eli has always been an erratic player. Around the time of our last SB ring, we were hoping he finally stabilized. and then it turned out he hadn't. He gets more blame than deserved, and he also gets more credit than deserved. IMO, there's nothing wrong with saying he's a very good QB who falls short of HOF elite.

It's been bantied about quite a bit in the past that while Eli isn't a scrambler, he is shifty. Only the blind can miss that he has an ability to shift around the pocket, or even roll out. Watching him take off and run is a horror show, and far too many people mistake that for being shifty.

In comment 11876356 MarshallOnMontana said:

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That sanchez play in the 09 and 10 postseasons combined was highly comparable to eli in 07. Absolutely. Difference being sanchez defense had a letdown that elis never did. Its not really an outlandish position to view their performance individually in this select rough handful of games that way, unless you want to just throw made up strawmen on top of it as you have. Eli had much more ownership of the 11 team

Joe. his statistics were comparable to Eli. But Eli's 07 Super Bowl run becomes no longer comparable to Sanchez's run(s) because... they weren't Super Bowl runs. This isn't hiding behind Eli's rings to prove a point. I could easily pick a handful of players without any effort that put up similar statistics to Eli in postseasons they didn't advance to the Super Bowl in. The whole point is meaningless at best and flat out wrong at worst.

in brutal weather.

I wouldn't compare anything Sanchez ever did to that.

In comment 11876382 fkap said:

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makes boneheaded plays. For some reason, Eli's boneheaded plays stick in our heads. My 'fave' is one from several years ago: a left handed basketball style alley oop INT in the endzone. Let's be fair: Eli has always been an erratic player. Around the time of our last SB ring, we were hoping he finally stabilized. and then it turned out he hadn't. He gets more blame than deserved, and he also gets more credit than deserved. IMO, there's nothing wrong with saying he's a very good QB who falls short of HOF elite. It's been bantied about quite a bit in the past that while Eli isn't a scrambler, he is shifty. Only the blind can miss that he has an ability to shift around the pocket, or even roll out. Watching him take off and run is a horror show, and far too many people mistake that for being shifty.

That play always gets brought up and don't get me wrong it was a bad decision. However, like many of his plays Eli is, was an will always be a bit of a gambler trying to make plays. The year prior he made the exact same play in the St. Louis game and it went for big yardage. When he gambled the first time it came up big and the second time it did the opposite.

I appreciate his career. That doesnt mean I find him above criticism, believe his job security is above question regardless of how this year goes, or act like his two sb make him better than any qbs with less by default

this site sometimes is crazy defensive about this player. Dude is coming off an atrocious last year and a half, strings 2 solid games together, and now we are calling out anyone who had the nerve to knock his play, painting them as fringe loons. Please

Eli played a ridiculous fourth quarter against the Pats using basically Tyree, Smith, and Boss. Thanks to Plax for "falling in the shower" the night before and being a non-factor until Gilbride got him a play even he couldn't fuck up.

In comment 11876382 fkap said:

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makes boneheaded plays. For some reason, Eli's boneheaded plays stick in our heads. My 'fave' is one from several years ago: a left handed basketball style alley oop INT in the endzone. Let's be fair: Eli has always been an erratic player. Around the time of our last SB ring, we were hoping he finally stabilized. and then it turned out he hadn't. He gets more blame than deserved, and he also gets more credit than deserved. IMO, there's nothing wrong with saying he's a very good QB who falls short of HOF elite.

It's the system that made him look erratic. Would anyone look good in the Gilbride run and shoot hybrid? Where the receivers had to read a defense like a QB? Let's see the numbers he puts up in this system before you label him as not a hall of famer QB. (Shakes head)

Before last year, I was always a bigtime Eli supporter and believed that he was a special player. The only time in Eli's career that I ever doubted him was that Pick-tastic Vikings game in '07, I didn't go crazy and rip on him but I started to believe that he was just another guy. Well he went on a brilliant stretch right after that game to lead us to a Super Bowl and I've been riding the bandwagon ever since.

But last year was brutal and made me question what he still had left in the tank. I think we all know that he had awful offensive support last year. Our OL was maybe the worst in the league, our supposed #1 WR in Nicks played like utter garbage, our RB situation was a mess, and our TE was awful.

I get all that. Eli's situation was crap. But...

28th ranked Offense in Pts
28th ranked Offense in Yds
32nd ranked Offense in TOV's
18 pass TD -- 27 INT (that -9 differential!!!!)

Even when everything around your Franchise QB is shit, you'd still hope that your Franchise QB could perform a little bit better than THAT. In 2014, a -9 Pass TD to INT difference is almost impossible with the new passer friendly rules. Our offense was 28th in PTS but they were even worse overall than just the PTS ranking because of all the turnovers they committed that set up easy points for the opponent.

- WE HAD ARGUABLY THE WORST OFFENSE IN FOOTBALL LAST YEAR
- QB is by far the most important position on an NFL team

It's really that simple. Eli had crap around him but he was also playing like crap. Even when he had time last year, he was making inaccurate throws and dumb decisions. I love Eli but I think it's perfectly fair to give him a share of the blame for last season. When your Franchise QB can't make your offense any better than the 30th ranked unit in the league and has a TD:INT ratio straight out of the 1960s, you question if he's a part of the problem.

I never gave up on him, but I did view this year as an extremely important year in Eli's career. I felt like this a was a make-or-break season. One of the biggest complaints for years with Eli has been the antiquated offensive scheme that Gilbride used. People (including me) believe that Gilbride's offense was holding Eli back. So I wanted to see how Eli would perform in a cleaner more modern passing offense predicated on quicker/easier throws. But if I saw Eli perform the same way this year as he did last, I would've been willing to move on to another QB at the end of the year.

I'm happy to see him and this offense slowly getting in a groove. I'm feeling a lot more confident about Eli. But it's still only been 3 games, with 1 of those games being an awful offensive performance. So it's still early, but I've already seen signs in 2014 that I didn't in all of 2013. I'm happy for Eli that he's proving doubters like me wrong, but I also feel no shame whatsoever for doubting Eli and viewing him as a question mark entering this year. Because he was a 33 year old who played like utter crap last season and was entering a contract year. This was/is an enormous season in Eli's career when it comes to reputation and legacy. I hope he continues to build momentum in this new offense and does big things the rest of the way.

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Difference being sanchez defense had a letdown that elis never did. Its not really an outlandish position to view their performance individually in this select rough handful of games that way, unless you want to just throw made up strawmen on top of it as you have.

Why should strawmen even exist? I'm not even sure why a poster would put together comparisons that are meant to lessen Eli's achievements in teh first place. That is sort of a strawman in itself.

The oddest thing to me is that Giants fans have to even go out of their way to defend eli from OTHER Giants fans!

The guy just goes out and does his job, never complains, doesn't get into trouble, isn't raping people or sending pictures of his junk to others, he just is part of a 2 ring run, and he gets shat on a lot.

It is one of the most perplexing things I have ever seen. If you ask other team's fans, like we did this weekend with Panthers and Steelers fans, and they don't get it either. Pretty sad when other teams fans have more compassion for eli than his own supporters.

football is a game of inches in a lot of ways. an inch or two one way or another is often the difference between a great throw and an interception. And then are dumb throws. I don't care if that throw worked before. Gambling of that sort, in the endzone, into a crowd, is a dumb throw every time (only exception would be if it's guaranteed to be the last play of the game, and you positively lose if you don't throw it).

Every QB has them, but for some reason Eli is given no slack by many fans, the press, or the so-called experts.

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....It's really that simple. Eli had crap around him but he was also playing like crap. Even when he had time last year, he was making inaccurate throws and dumb decisions. I love Eli but I think it's perfectly fair to give him a share of the blame for last season. When your Franchise QB can't make your offense any better than the 30th ranked unit in the league and has a TD:INT ratio straight out of the 1960s, you question if he's a part of the problem...

You can't have it both ways. You can't have an atrocious line AND assert that he was playing like crap. There's a cause and effect here..He played like crap BECAUSE he had an awful OL the last 2 years..Did he make mistakes anyway? Sure, he tried to do too much, but as FMiC pointed out, this is what you get with a gunslinger mentality..Even when the OL protected Eli on a consistent basis, he played like crap at times..That dreadful OL caused him to play like crap MOST OF THE TIME..

Dude has an army of defenders here who have absolved him of any and all blame for anything ever, according to at least 1/3 of the posters here he has never thrown a pick that was his fault. Hes never had a poor game that wasnt someone elses doing. These fans have no problem throwing other giant players and coaches under the bus to prop up the franchise. Gets compared with a straight face to first ballot hofers because of 2 months that were well timed.

If 99 % of what passes for eli criticism on this board is to be considered over the top and unfair, its only because youre sensitive

In comment 11876413 Go Terps said:

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Eli played a ridiculous fourth quarter against the Pats using basically Tyree, Smith, and Boss. Thanks to Plax for "falling in the shower" the night before and being a non-factor until Gilbride got him a play even he couldn't fuck up.

Plax wasn't satisfied with almost costing us that game, so he went ahead delivered a death blow to our whole season the following year. On a side note, he's probably wishing he was back in the clink during those SNY interviews with Chris Carlin.

Gilbrides offense and his refusal to change it hurt this team and QB more than anything the last few years. WRs who had no idea how to get on the same page with the QB. No running game or line these are the things that lead to the failures
But hey let's blame Eli cause he has never won with a good supporting cast?

In comment 11876449 Big Blue '56 said:

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Quote: ....It's really that simple. Eli had crap around him but he was also playing like crap. Even when he had time last year, he was making inaccurate throws and dumb decisions. I love Eli but I think it's perfectly fair to give him a share of the blame for last season. When your Franchise QB can't make your offense any better than the 30th ranked unit in the league and has a TD:INT ratio straight out of the 1960s, you question if he's a part of the problem... You can't have it both ways. You can't have an atrocious line AND assert that he was playing like crap. There's a cause and effect here..He played like crap BECAUSE he had an awful OL the last 2 years..Did he make mistakes anyway? Sure, he tried to do too much, but as FMiC pointed out, this is what you get with a gunslinger mentality..Even when the OL protected Eli on a consistent basis, he played like crap at times..That dreadful OL caused him to play like crap MOST OF THE TIME..

Why can't you have it both ways? If the OL plays poorly, that automatically gets the QB off the hook for playing poorly?

The OL was pathetic last year and I'm not saying otherwise. Our interior OL play in particular was just terrible and made it tough for Eli to step into a throw with the pocket collapsing from the inside.

But that doesn't completely excuse Eli's performance. Even when he had time last year, Eli was throwing the ball inaccurately and making dumb throws.

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woe is eli, sure MarshallOnMontana : 2:00 pm : link : reply Dude has an army of defenders here who have absolved him of any and all blame for anything ever

You play the game for titles. When a guy delivers two of them and does it in a tough, iconic way, excuse me for giving him A LOT of slack.

The bigger question is: why are so many people so eager to tear Eli down? It isn't like he's a criminal, a jackass, or even a braggart.

Why is it that people are almost gleeful when he fails and are looking to bury him at any turn. We want titles, then we get them and we shit on the very person who pretty much hand-delivered them.

Very, very odd.

Clearly the mvp of that team during the regular season on one leg, had an epic nfc title game, caught the game winning td in the sb, but woe is eli for being saddled with him.

Give me a fucking break.

Sometimes Eli can suck without any help from the OL. But not often. And sometimes he sucks because he never gets into a rhythm without an OL, rb or receiving team. That was last year.

Being a really good qb is at least part about getting into a rhythm. last year in particular, one can easily argue that it wasn't Eli's fault that he never did get into one.

There is no widespread desire to tear eli down. You are just sensitive. In addition to willing to make claims up

thought I could have for heaping shit on eli is if we felt the Giants should have 5 or 6 titles by now and ELI was the reasons we didn't accomplish that.

Since nobody in their right mind could actually believe that, then I really don't get the effort to discredit him so often.

It isn't like he's fucked this team over, but reading the posts on BBI sometimes, I really have a hard time believing he didn't

In comment 11876470 Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy said:

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In comment 11876449 Big Blue '56 said: Quote: Quote: ....It's really that simple. Eli had crap around him but Why can't you have it both ways? If the OL plays poorly, that automatically gets the QB off the hook for playing poorly? The OL was pathetic last year and I'm not saying otherwise. Our interior OL play in particular was just terrible and made it tough for Eli to step into a throw with the pocket collapsing from the inside. But that doesn't completely excuse Eli's performance. Even when he had time last year, Eli was throwing the ball inaccurately and making dumb throws.

You should take a close look at last years roster
Peyton Brees Rodgers Brady joe Montana no one could win with that group of players and the offense system that was run. As Mara said the offense was broken.

I agree. I think Eli is going to be one of those much maligned athletes who ends up being appreciated by far more people once he's retired.

Really. So I'm just making it up that people have tried to tear Eli down? That people have put arguments on BBI that players like Josh Freeman are better QB's?

That people were calling for Nassib to start before the end of the preseason, when two weeks prior, they were calling for Nassib to be cut?

I'm making up stuff I could easily find in the archives?

Alrighty then.

In comment 11876439 fkap said:

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football is a game of inches in a lot of ways. an inch or two one way or another is often the difference between a great throw and an interception. And then are dumb throws. I don't care if that throw worked before. Gambling of that sort, in the endzone, into a crowd, is a dumb throw every time (only exception would be if it's guaranteed to be the last play of the game, and you positively lose if you don't throw it). I basically agree, but thats the way he plays the game. You get the bad with the good with him. Every QB has them, but for some reason Eli is given no slack by many fans, the press, or the so-called experts.

and I feel like some of that blame goes to Gilbride. I love how McAdoo is throwing shot passes on 1st downs to help get Eli going and get this team in better 2nd down situations.

I'm not completely blaming Eli for last year. He's down on the list for why the Offense sucked. #1 would be OL. #2 would be the terrible RB situation. #3 would be the lack of receiving talent outside of Cruz. #4 would be Gilbride's Offensive scheme. #5 would be Eli playing poorly.

Have you ever seen a QB lead the #1 offense in the league and deserve 0% of the credit? Have you ever seen a QB lead the worst offense in the league and deserve 0% of the blame?

Sure, QBs get too much of the credit and too much of the blame. But they're also the most important players on the team and have an enormous impact on the team's performance. And just like I give Eli a ton of credit for being a historically clutch 2x Super Bowl Champion, I also give him some of the blame for last year's disaster of an offense.

But some people here can't even do that, because things are always black and white apparently.

Why are so many of you on your high horse whining about eli appreciation when you same whiners are the first ones to throw any and all giants players and coaches under the bus in a desire to paint eli in a better light? Many of these players and coaches were similarly big parts of sb runs. Its very tough to take it seriously given this. Especially when this is more common, wide spread and often way more biting than sny of these so called exaggeratted eli attacks

some seem like bigger eli fans than giant fans

What a great, great post.

Sums up my feelings exactly.

only with a couple types of the blame eli gets, but they are prevalent here.

Osi - sure it is valid to complain about certain throws or decisions. That's natural.

What I'm talking about are the posters who debate things like trading eli, starting Nassib, or talking about Eli being imminently in decline.

I'm talking about posters who try to rationalize that a guy like Josh Freeman or Mark sanchez is as important of a player as eli. Hell, I'm not sure why on a Giants board, you'd even have a person put forth an argument that compares Sanchez and Eli. was there even an impetus for that comparison?

I have issues with people who instead of holding the 2 SB's as a medal of honor, try to hold it as an albatross and then when eli throws three picks in a loss, they scream, "Well, he won 2 SB's but what the fuck has he done lately"?

Each year, people will talk about opposing QB's and then make the case they are better than Eli? Why? Are people here calling him the best and there is a desire to refute that? Cutler, Romo, Rivers, Newton, Kaepernick, Ryan, Flacco. At some point during a year, those guys will be gushed about and in that praise, people will use it as a platform to bash eli. I just don't get it.

I wish it were a matter of black and white, but it isn't. It is a lot of criticism, that is often directed for no good reason.

I was saying simply that Eli played a ridiculous fourth quarter to win the Super Bowl without his #1 WR because Plaxico Burress, scumbag, "slipped and fell in the shower" the night before.

It was long forgotten because they won the game, but it's incredible how close Plax was to destroying two potential Lombardi trophies instead of just the one the following year.

Luckily in 2007 the QB was good enough to make it happen without him, and leaning on two rookies and David Tyree.

there was a tiny tiny fraction calling for Freeman, let's not pretend like that was some huge movement around here. Nassib went from bust to potential QB of the future in mere weeks, I don't think anybody was ever seriously considering starting Nassib this year. The whole narrative here seems to be that there's a chunk out there that takes fair criticism to be a slight at Eli.

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fmic MarshallOnMontana : 2:23 pm : link : reply Why are so many of you on your high horse whining about eli appreciation when you same whiners are the first ones to throw any and all giants players and coaches under the bus in a desire to paint eli in a better light?

I challenge you to find a post where I'm throwing anyone under the bus. Man, I can count on one hand the number of times I've ripped a giants player, and that's part of my issue I have here.

Why should I personally go after guys I'm supposedly invested in cheering on? Why would I get personally angry at eli after he was part of the Glory Days of this franchise?

The next time you see me come up with a catchy, idiotic nickname like Killdrive will be my first. I just don't see the point of it.

I get disappointed when the team loses, but I'll be damned if I'm going to bash people giving their all, just because they've failed to entertain me properly.

I'm talking about when Freeman was with Tampa.

Id say the defense holding the best offense in history to 14 points was pretty huge. And trying to diminish plax role is silly. Winning a sb is about more than just sb sunday, his role on that team was massive, without him we dont even sniff the playoffs let alone win a sb.

In comment 11876519 MarshallOnMontana said:

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Why are so many of you on your high horse whining about eli appreciation when you same whiners are the first ones to throw any and all giants players and coaches under the bus in a desire to paint eli in a better light? Many of these players and coaches were similarly big parts of sb runs.

This is what annoys me. Giants receivers who play well? All because Eli is awesome and made those schmoes into great receivers. Giants receivers who play poorly? Assholes who are killing Eli. Pick one or the other, for crissakes.

Steve Smith was a great possession receiver. Not much YAC ability, but the man ran exact routes, got open and caught the ball. He was a second round pick for a reason, but to hear many talk about him here, he was a complete nobody without Eli fucking Manning. It's silly.

In comment 11876562 MarshallOnMontana said:

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Id say the defense holding the best offense in history to 14 points was pretty huge. And trying to diminish plax role is silly. Winning a sb is about more than just sb sunday, his role on that team was massive, without him we dont even sniff the playoffs let alone win a sb.

Completely agree. I'm not diminishing his role in the other games that season one bit. He was great and a major part in getting there. And the defense was great too.

But once we got there Plax almost destroyed it. And while the defense was phenomenal, they left the field late in the fourth quarter trailing. When the game had to be won, Eli won it. To me that is worth all the 5,000 yard passing seasons and 100+ QB ratings in the world.

Isnt it long past time to stop booing the best skill player in franchise history because of tame comments made almost ten years ago about the qb we supposedly all hate and dont appreciate anyway?

Even eli has moved on.

Eli isn't Jesus Christ turning water into wine. The guys who have performed in significant roles for us (Burress, Nicks, S. Smith, Manningham, and Cruz) had some talent to begin with. People act like Eli turned Tyree level talent into pro bowlers. There's a middle ground here. The QB's and WR's should both share the credit, and blame.

It's more likely that Tyree made Eli to a certain extent, since the helmet catch greatly increased the team's chances of winning XLII

in decline, which was a pretty prevelant topic here all offseason, and look what it turns into.

Fatman's posts coming true right before our eyes.

In comment 11876586 Greg from LI said:

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It's more likely that Tyree made Eli to a certain extent, since the helmet catch greatly increased the team's chances of winning XLII

This is bullshit, because even if Tyree makes a normal catch on the play Eli's escape goes down as one of the greatest plays in the history of the Super Bowl and thus the NFL.

a playoff record of 13-11 with 30 INTs and a QB rating of 87.3. A tick below average is season ending INTs in 2003,2008 and 2010.

I hate those Eli-bashing posters too. I hated coming on this site during pre-season and reading about how much Eli sucked and how much better Nassib was. I think people on that extreme "Eli's done" side were ridiculously annoying and I absolutely enjoy seeing them eat shit. So I completely agree with you there.

But I also think we have some people here who are the opposite and have an "It's never Eli's fault" mindset because of all the special moments he has delivered us in the past. And those people annoy me too because they seem to shield Eli from any criticism.

It's almost like a political discussion here sometimes with the Pro-Eli side squaring off with the Anti-Eli side. The anti-Eli side will just rip into Eli and then the pro-Eli side will feel the need to balance out that excessive Eli negativity with their excessive Eli positivity. It just becomes a chore to read those threads where the two sides go at it.

In comment 11876514 Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy said:

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and I feel like some of that blame goes to Gilbride. I love how McAdoo is throwing shot passes on 1st downs to help get Eli going and get this team in better 2nd down situations. I'm not completely blaming Eli for last year. He's down on the list for why the Offense sucked. #1 would be OL. #2 would be the terrible RB situation. #3 would be the lack of receiving talent outside of Cruz. #4 would be Gilbride's Offensive scheme. #5 would be Eli playing poorly. Have you ever seen a QB lead the #1 offense in the league and deserve 0% of the credit? Have you ever seen a QB lead the worst offense in the league and deserve 0% of the blame? Sure, QBs get too much of the credit and too much of the blame. But they're also the most important players on the team and have an enormous impact on the team's performance. And just like I give Eli a ton of credit for being a historically clutch 2x Super Bowl Champion, I also give him some of the blame for last year's disaster of an offense. But some people here can't even do that, because things are always black and white apparently.

Osi, Eli does not and cannot escape criticism for last year, but as you pointed out, it is low on the list of blame..Am I representing you accurately?

And I dont know of more than a couple qbs with more than 13 playoff wins. He also lost one playoff game literally solely because the nfl didnt have instant replay, and lost a sb where he badly outplayed elway

You cant lose in the playoffs when you dont go there, and its possible that could happen for a 5th time in 6 years here, with the lone exception being the first 9 win nfc east winner since the merger

putting aside the fact that comparing w/l records in the playoffs is a shaky marker in itself, it helps that eli manning has never taken the field for a playoff game that 24 points wouldnt have won, in 11 tries

The fact that we are having any discussion comparjng these two shows just how loony some eli backers are

As much as I realize that his cast stunk last year, the QB can't get a pass when he leads arguably the worst offense last year.

I never felt like he was THE problem, but I did think his 2013 performance warranted concern about his longterm future with the team. I felt like he needed to have a stronger 2014 in a new offense for me to feel more confident in him.

This thread has turned into nothing more than the usual people with their usual bullshit (short of Osi Osi and a few others).

This is why I don't enjoy discussing Eli here or anywhere with Giants fans. Whether you love or hate him, you will stick to your guns on him till the very end.

In comment 11876590 Go Terps said:

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In comment 11876586 Greg from LI said: Quote: It's more likely that Tyree made Eli to a certain extent, since the helmet catch greatly increased the team's chances of winning XLII This is bullshit, because even if Tyree makes a normal catch on the play Eli's escape goes down as one of the greatest plays in the history of the Super Bowl and thus the NFL.

My point was that, if Tyree doesn't come down with the ball, their chances of winning the game drop dramatically.

So it ironic to chat Giants football and see more of the same here.

Whats the problem? That he's not good for fantasy?

Yes he's erratic at times.
Yes he takes risks.
Yes he makes more bad throws than an "elite" QB should make
Yes he has streaks where the TOs flow

BUT

Who has had more 4th qtr comebacks in the last decade?
Does Eli elevate the level of play of guys around him? This is an easy yes.. or name an offensive player who left the Giants and flourished... I cant (some honest help here)

Yes.. the pro-Eli crowd can always harp on the two superbowl MVPs and titles... but the best part of those for me?
He outplayed
Garcia (8-5 64% 13 TDs 4 INTs)
Romo (13-3, 65% 36 TDs 19 INTs)
Farve (13-3, 67% 26 TDs 15 INTs)
Tom Brady (mr perfect)

hands down in head to head play. Eli did not steer the ship or manage the game. He went out and outplayed some of the best QBs at the time.

If that wasnt enough the 2nd time he outplayed Matt Ryan, Aaron Rogers, Alex Smith and once again Tom Brady.

You can say his erratic play keeps him a real notch below the top 4-5 guys in the league who would probably be Rogers, Peyton, Brady and Brees... but when its counted the most and Eli has gone on the road he has straight up outplayed the star QB on the other side of the field. I would even venture to say those guys push him to elevate his game.

If you want him replaced follow the Jets. Or hell just think back to Dave Brown, Dany Kanell, Kent Graham, Kerry Collins, Kurt Warner... seriously wake up.

What will be really interesting is when Eli wins his 3rd title.

above average when playing against the better teams.Some would argue that he was solely responsible for losing to the Giants in 2008 by forcing a pass that cost them the game. Personally, I think Favre was more than a tick above average, career-wise, but his playoff record certainly fits the definition.

In comment 11876638 bob in tx said:

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above average when playing against the better teams.Some would argue that he was solely responsible for losing to the Giants in 2008 by forcing a pass that cost them the game. Personally, I think Favre was more than a tick above average, career-wise, but his playoff record certainly fits the definition.

Peyton would appear to fit into that category as well, playoff-wise

Good to see some reasonable well thought out opinions here.

In comment 11876628 Greg from LI said:

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In comment 11876590 Go Terps said: Quote: In comment 11876586 Greg from LI said: Quote: It's more likely that Tyree made Eli to a certain extent, since the helmet catch greatly increased the team's chances of winning XLII This is bullshit, because even if Tyree makes a normal catch on the play Eli's escape goes down as one of the greatest plays in the history of the Super Bowl and thus the NFL. My point was that, if Tyree doesn't come down with the ball, their chances of winning the game drop dramatically.

But he did, and to me that's the crux of the argument on Eli. Any number of things could have happened in particular spots to take the sheen off him. But they didn't. Since he has been the QB the Giants have won two titles, a number equaled only by Pittsburgh. I do not know why there are some Giants fans that either choose to shrink that achievement or say the grass is greener elsewhere.

I don't think it is.

I think you have a woeful grasp of average in the playoffs then. Not a lot of guys walking around with 13 playoff wins. Not a lot of guys at 18-4

If you go to the playoffs perennially, youre going to lose a lot of playoff games. One each year in fact when you dont win the sb.

He's had some incredibly highs and some horrific lows. Over the course of his career I'd see he's a good quarterback who was capable of greatness at times, but rarely sustained that level of play.

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I do not know why there are some Giants fans that either choose to shrink that achievement or say the grass is greener elsewhere.

This is exactly the crux of my argument.

Why there was ever a comparison of Sanchez vs. eli here or QBX vs. eli here where the goal is to knock Eli down a notch is puzzling to me. Jets fans still hold onto the idea that Joe Namath is an all-time great and he won only one title - their only one. Were people shitting on Joe back in the day?

I enjoy watching the giants. not sure what would have to happen to prod me to trying to argue that a giants player wasn't as good as his titles would indicate. Frankly, I wouldn't have the motivation to argue that, and I pretty much will argue anything.

In comment 11876642 Big Blue '56 said:

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In comment 11876638 bob in tx said: Quote: above average when playing against the better teams.Some would argue that he was solely responsible for losing to the Giants in 2008 by forcing a pass that cost them the game. Personally, I think Favre was more than a tick above average, career-wise, but his playoff record certainly fits the definition. Peyton would appear to fit into that category as well, playoff-wise

Sure. The point is that citing stats can really be meaningless. People like to lessen Eli's performances in big games and doing so is equally as foolish. Calling Eli "a tick above average" and then trying to turn the comment into a compliment may rank as the single most ignorant statement I've ever read on BBI. ( see how easily blunt, baseless statements can appear).

But man, 336 INTs in a career, that's gotta be close to a tick below medicore.

Relative to his unmatched regular season standard, and the fact that all but 2 or 3 of his losses came as a favorite presents a horrid narrative

relative to all quarterbacks though, hes not a bad playoff performer

In comment 11876408 MarshallOnMontana said:

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I appreciate his career. That doesnt mean I find him above criticism, believe his job security is above question regardless of how this year goes, or act like his two sb make him better than any qbs with less by default this site sometimes is crazy defensive about this player. Dude is coming off an atrocious last year and a half, strings 2 solid games together, and now we are calling out anyone who had the nerve to knock his play, painting them as fringe loons. Please

The site is crazy defensive of him because he's ours, and takes a beating both from our own fans, other team's fans, and the media.

What I find weird, is that people go to great lengths to prop up OTHER guys, while dismissing their faults... The RG3's and Lucks of the world, who while they may be great, don't boast nearly the resume that our guys does, but those guys are fawned all over, while our guy is always in decline.

...just be who he is?

I don't get why these arguments always have to be one guy saying he can do no wrong vs. another guy who thinks he's basically a JAG who got lucky a few times in big games.

He performed like an elite QB in 2011 from start to finish. Most of his other regular seasons were mixed bags. The one I felt was most misleading was 2010 where I actually thought Eli was much better than his stat line showed INT-wise. 2013 was just a flat out mess but in 2010 there were actually a good amount of perfectly thrown balls that just bounced right off a WR's hands into those of a DB. He led the league in INT's that year but probably shouldn't have.

That said, he's thrown far too many INT's in his career which I think anyone would agree with.

You have a bunch of regular seasons from him that don't really pop out. He doesn't have those 5,000+, 40 TD years.. but that's alright. He came through in some huge spots on the biggest stages and proved numerous times that although he wasn't always the greatest QB, he could elevate his play and get there when he needed to most.

He's an enigmatic QB and one who will be remembered as such. It's a guy who has had points where he's looked as good as anyone who has played the positions and games where you wondered if the backup QB could legitimately be a better option.

There's no need to prop him up into something more than he is/was and there's especially no need to tear him down and discredit the great things he did do. Just let Eli be who Eli is.

Favre's fifth in playoff wins for a QB - I think this data only includes the SB era.

Is no one will hand him the keys long enough. His int rate is higher than favre, his td to int ratio is worse. He has led the league in ints since the start of every season since 04, you can literally make the cutoff whenever you want. And eli has played his entire career in a post 2004 passing world, a clear marker for an era change in passing numbers. Favre only played his 35 and older seasons in that era. Favre would have over 600 tds if he played his whole career in a post 04 world

In comment 11876683 arcarsenal said:

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...just be who he is? I don't get why these arguments always have to be one guy saying he can do no wrong vs. another guy who thinks he's basically a JAG who got lucky a few times in big games. He performed like an elite QB in 2011 from start to finish. Most of his other regular seasons were mixed bags. The one I felt was most misleading was 2010 where I actually thought Eli was much better than his stat line showed INT-wise. 2013 was just a flat out mess but in 2010 there were actually a good amount of perfectly thrown balls that just bounced right off a WR's hands into those of a DB. He led the league in INT's that year but probably shouldn't have. That said, he's thrown far too many INT's in his career which I think anyone would agree with. You have a bunch of regular seasons from him that don't really pop out. He doesn't have those 5,000+, 40 TD years.. but that's alright. He came through in some huge spots on the biggest stages and proved numerous times that although he wasn't always the greatest QB, he could elevate his play and get there when he needed to most. He's an enigmatic QB and one who will be remembered as such. It's a guy who has had points where he's looked as good as anyone who has played the positions and games where you wondered if the backup QB could legitimately be a better option. There's no need to prop him up into something more than he is/was and there's especially no need to tear him down and discredit the great things he did do. Just let Eli be who Eli is.

+ ∞

There were people here saying it would be a shock if he didn't turn out to be better than Eli. Sam Bradford.

of Eli's contemporaries has a clearly better career resume?

By resume I mean accomplishments, plays made, games won history set.

In comment 11876514 Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy said:

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I love how McAdoo is throwing shot passes on 1st downs to help get Eli going and get this team in better 2nd down situations.

That is definitely quite a welcome sight.

In comment 11876691 Go Terps said:

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There were people here saying it would be a shock if he didn't turn out to be better than Eli. Sam Bradford.

Every guy that comes out these days is the better option. We have guys that would take Jameis Winston to replace Eli right now.

In comment 11876696 Britt in VA said:

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In comment 11876691 Go Terps said: Quote: There were people here saying it would be a shock if he didn't turn out to be better than Eli. Sam Bradford. Every guy that comes out these days is the better option. We have guys that would take Jameis Winston to replace Eli right now.

Mostly Stan and he's an idiot.

Eli has the keys for as long as he wants them.


The fascination with Favre here has also baffled me. i mean, you exchange Eli with favre and you pretty much would get the same results for both teams, IMO. so, what exactly is being argued?
Ironically, the guys who always tie back to Favre here want his rings to count, but then try to tell people discussing eli that rings aren't everything.

It really is a strange line of argumentation.

went to the playoffs 12 out of 20 years.That's 60%. 13-11 record. 1 SB win.

Eli has been to the playoffs 5 out of 10 years or 50%. 8-3 record. 2 SB wins.

In comment 11876683 arcarsenal said:

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...just be who he is? I don't get why these arguments always have to be one guy saying he can do no wrong vs. another guy who thinks he's basically a JAG who got lucky a few times in big games. He performed like an elite QB in 2011 from start to finish. Most of his other regular seasons were mixed bags. The one I felt was most misleading was 2010 where I actually thought Eli was much better than his stat line showed INT-wise. 2013 was just a flat out mess but in 2010 there were actually a good amount of perfectly thrown balls that just bounced right off a WR's hands into those of a DB. He led the league in INT's that year but probably shouldn't have. That said, he's thrown far too many INT's in his career which I think anyone would agree with. You have a bunch of regular seasons from him that don't really pop out. He doesn't have those 5,000+, 40 TD years.. but that's alright. He came through in some huge spots on the biggest stages and proved numerous times that although he wasn't always the greatest QB, he could elevate his play and get there when he needed to most. He's an enigmatic QB and one who will be remembered as such. It's a guy who has had points where he's looked as good as anyone who has played the positions and games where you wondered if the backup QB could legitimately be a better option. There's no need to prop him up into something more than he is/was and there's especially no need to tear him down and discredit the great things he did do. Just let Eli be who Eli is.

I agree with all of this. As far as the last sentence, I'd say if I'm seen as propping him up, it's usually in response to him being torn down.

I don't think Eli is Joe Montana. I've made a comparison to Elway before, and I stand by that. But when you look back, I don't think that's as glamorous as it sounds. Elway wasn't Elway until his career was done. And their career trajectory is eeirily similar.

People are talking about Favre and Eli in the same breath, would anyone here really complain? I'd say that'd be pretty much what we signed up for when we drafted him, except it's already guaranteed Eli will have more rings than Favre.

In comment 11876701 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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Eli has the keys for as long as he wants them. The fascination with Favre here has also baffled me. i mean, you exchange Eli with favre and you pretty much would get the same results for both teams, IMO. so, what exactly is being argued? Ironically, the guys who always tie back to Favre here want his rings to count, but then try to tell people discussing eli that rings aren't everything. It really is a strange line of argumentation.

This is another thing. I can't believe people are so sure that Eli has to "prove himself" this year.

I don't think that's rooted in reality.

I think Eli will be here, barring catastrophic injury, as long as he wants to.

and more often than not, that doesn't turn out the way they think it will.

People made up their mind on Eli in 2004, and seem to be sticking to whatever that notion was.

Eli leaves the team is if it is a similar situation to his brother - an injury that puts his comeback in jeopardy and his replacement is drafted.

I don't even see a Favre-like departure where the Giants draft a high QB to groom him and nudge eli out.

I think otherwise, he'll leave on his own terms. Despite what most of the analysts suggest, the football people I've talked to don't think Eli is the root of problems.

In comment 11876705 bob in tx said:

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went to the playoffs 12 out of 20 years.That's 60%. 13-11 record. 1 SB win. Eli has been to the playoffs 5 out of 10 years or 50%. 8-3 record. 2 SB wins.

Yep. A Super Bowl year is much closer to the median for Eli than for others.

And the only thing that matters, ex post, is winning the Super Bowl. One and dones give you a chance, but they mean nothing in the long-run.

I felt similar to Osi this Summer. I was a guy who aside from Minnesota in 2007, pretty much never doubted Eli or called for his head. I had faith he could get the job done when it was all on the line and always felt comfortable going to war with #10 under center. But I started getting a bit concerned when last year was about as bad as he had ever looked (poor surrounding circumstances or not) and it seemed to be bleeding into this year.

These last 2 weeks have been a very welcome sight. Tiny sample but I desperately needed to see Eli have a couple of games where he just looked "right" again.. and he has.

We may well miss the playoffs again this year but if Eli can keep this going and keep this offense viable, I think we can at least keep playing games that matter for a while. Which would be nice after last year.

and I won't apologize for being a huge fan of his either. Does he have his flaws? Of course. But he has elevated his play to a whole other level when we have needed him most.

When Favre was at his peak in his MVP years, three of those playoff losses came against the dynasty Cowboys. That's a bit different from losing to the 2005 Panthers or 2008 Eagles.

In comment 11876719 arcarsenal said:

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I felt similar to Osi this Summer. I was a guy who aside from Minnesota in 2007, pretty much never doubted Eli or called for his head. I had faith he could get the job done when it was all on the line and always felt comfortable going to war with #10 under center. But I started getting a bit concerned when last year was about as bad as he had ever looked (poor surrounding circumstances or not) and it seemed to be bleeding into this year. These last 2 weeks have been a very welcome sight. Tiny sample but I desperately needed to see Eli have a couple of games where he just looked "right" again.. and he has. We may well miss the playoffs again this year but if Eli can keep this going and keep this offense viable, I think we can at least keep playing games that matter for a while. Which would be nice after last year.

Everybody had doubts at the end of last year, for whatever the reason, but there was no denying what we saw. We may have had different reasons/ways of rationalizing what we saw and why it happened, but we all saw the same thing.

But as usual, people went really over the top in making definitive statements without letting anything play out. And now they are seeing they were wrong, or should be. Some will never concede.

Does that count include relevant factors like favre being easily the best qb on the field in a sb he lost. The fact that the nfl didnt have instant replay in 98 missing a blatant jerry rice fumble on the last drive (a couple plays before t.o. caught the td and cried) being the only thing stopping favre from being 4-0 vs steve young in postseason. Or the fact that eli manning has never taken the field for a playoff game that 24 points doesnt win?

Of course not. And thats part of, but not the only reason why looking at won loss records for individuals is stupid. As well as boiling careers down to a sample that makes up less than 10percent of a guys career

one of these guys is a first ballot hofer. The other is eli manning

and Favre himself in his stadium in the rough elements that he supposedly loved playing in so much (at least that's what we were told).

18-0. Of course it's silly. But when you say Eli is "a tick above average" you deserve equally mindless comments about your idol.

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one of these guys is a first ballot hofer. The other is eli manning.

Eli's career isn't over yet, and it's not like he's not within sniffing distance of the HOF, already.

to make a hypothetical trade for Luck. Keep in mind, this is a trade that the Colts would never do with us.

In comment 11876742 David in LA said:

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to make a hypothetical trade for Luck. Keep in mind, this is a trade that the Colts would never do with us.

Wrong. I said I wouldn't personally, because the allure of winning a third with him was too great. That Eli had a chance to put himself in rare air by winning a third, and trading for Luck guarantees us nothing.

I said if we needed a QB, I absolutely would love to have Luck.

If you're going to quote me, please get it right.

QB's from different eras, taking into account opponents and rules.

Very few sites do that, though.

because it was virtually an impossible trade to ever happen for a million reasons.

In comment 11876745 kickerpa16 said:

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QB's from different eras, taking into account opponents and rules. Very few sites do that, though.

Do you have any recommended sites for these comparisons?

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Or the fact that eli manning has never taken the field for a playoff game that 24 points doesnt win?

How is this even a factor in the discussion with Favre?

what Giants fan has this stat at the ready and uses it as some sort of knock on Eli?

This is what fuels some of my rants. In some effort to prop other guys up, there is always that veiled (or not-so veiled) shot at #10.

because he always had the Niners and Cowboys in the way. Those teams were absolutely loaded.

on Eli since 2004 or not..I was NOT in favor of Eli being drafted. I thought his 2005-2007 years were maddening and unimpressive, TO ME..

He won me over in game 16 against the 2007 Pats..He won me over having 45-6 record against the best teams the NFL had to offer. He "beat" (obviously a QB doesn't do this all by himself) the Number 1 and number 2 seeds in 2007 and 2011..His record against the best of the best in 2012 was rather close to what he achieved in the 2008(2007 season) playoffs..

He had the only GW last drive of the SB where a TD was NEEDED to win..He had the GW drive against the Pats yet again in SB XLVI..

As I said, if good arguments are made and are not game to game knee-jerk rections that are often seen here, I can be as objective as a Giants fanatic can be..

There isn't a QB in the league I would take over Eli if I had a championship game to win. Not one

I suggest you tell me which year save for 2011 qualifies as decidedly north of that, on a week in week out basis for the entirety of the season. You have to stretch to come up with others. He certainly has no case for top 5 in any other year.

we're actually seeing a little bit of Ole Miss Eli. Remember that David Cutcliffe was Eli's college OC (and Peyton's, IIRC). He designed a short passing game for Eli to prevent him from getting killed by the other SEC defenses because Ole Miss didn't have the talent on the offensive line to allow Eli to constantly take 5 and 7 step drops. Ole Miss Eli was a dominant player. Eli always knew how to throw the short routes but they were not emphasized as much under KG

In comment 11876672 Greg from LI said:

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He's had some incredibly highs and some horrific lows. Over the course of his career I'd see he's a good quarterback who was capable of greatness at times, but rarely sustained that level of play.

the good thing is that sustained level of play at "greatness" is both unnecessary and a tad overrated. im sure romo, brees, rodgers, and p manning, would trade their "greatness" for another title.

In comment 11876761 MarshallOnMontana said:

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I suggest you tell me which year save for 2011 qualifies as decidedly north of that, on a week in week out basis for the entirety of the season. You have to stretch to come up with others. He certainly has no case for top 5 in any other year.

To be fair, that 2011 season was one of the all-time great QB seasons by anyone who has ever played the position. He dragged us to that SB by the scruff of the neck. Otherwise, you're right, Eli hasn't put up a dominant statistical season

His stretch from 2008-2012 was pretty impressive, although 2008 was not an impressive statistical season.

2009-2012 he his 60% completion percentage, 4000 or more yards (including a near 5000 yard season), 25 or more TD's every season, and save for one season was between 14-16 INT's.

That's five years of above average play statistically, even though 2008 doesn't reflect it.

One of the best seasons of all time is a massive stretch

he had a terrific year, dragged us to 7-7 before the run game and defense came to life. Played terrific in the postseason, I have no issue calling it one of the better playoff runs ever (didnt hurt that ne and gb were the 2 worst pass defenses in nfl history).

Great season, historic playoffs. But 2011 regular season, as awesome as it was, isnt on some short list of goat seasons

on playing this game,I would say that an 8-3 playoff record in a 10 year career( with a few years left) is a sizeable tick above a 13-11 record in a 20 year career. Winning 2 SBs is another big tick.

they would have drowned without Eli playing like a superhero that year. 6 of the 9 2011 regular season wins were Eli comebacks

If the offensive skill players and special teams didn't suck balls against arizona we are 2-1 today.

What I am personally seeing right now is a career that parallels my other favorite current athlete in another sport: Ryan Howard. Howard and Eli have actually had pretty similar careers and shortcomings.

Ryan Howard is looked upon as one of the most overrated players in the 21st century because he doesnt hit for average, strikes out a lot, is not a good defender, and cant run.

Eli Manning is looked upon as one of the most overrated players in the 21st century because he throws too many INTs, cant run, is not the most accurate, and doesnt make enough expressions.

And you know what? I could give two shits about either player. Both players have been INTEGRAL parts of championship teams that I got to see and root for. Both of them work hard, rarely miss time (until Howard ruptured his achilles), and performed at the highest level when it mattered the most. Isnt that what stars are suppose to do? Play their best when it matters the most? Sure they have flaws. Sure they are both ending their careers probably in the next few years. But what they have produced can and should not be questioned, yet somehow they are always in the middle of conversation in regards of their teams failures.

Eli Manning is a 2x SB champion and MVP. He has played in one of the toughest stadiums/cities for his entire career and never missed a game. He has played with some very talented teammates who have helped him to accomplish some of his individual accomplishments (Tiki, Shockey, Burress, Smith, Cruz, Bradshaw, Jacobs, Nicks, many OL, etc...) He is a flawed played. He does not throw the perfect spiral, or the deepest ball, or the fastest ball, or even the msot accurate ball. But for 9 out of the 10 years he has been in the league, he has put us in the position to have a chance to make the playoffs, putting us there 5 times. He has won us games, he has lost us games. But regardless of the outcome, he has always had his teammates/coaches backs, never complains, and his work ethic is unquestioned.

We all know he isnt Peyton or Brady or even Rodgers. But Ive said a million times, I would take him over Brees in NY. Brees has had the luxury of playing in two of the friendliest atmospheres a QB can have. He played with probably the best offensive mind in the 21st century as well. And I think he has played what, 3 games?, in under 40 degree weather. Guys like Big Ben and Rivers are both very good QB. But do you think Ben would be the ideal fit in NY? Maybe, could be. But that isnt a given. Philip Rivers plays in a stadium that can barely sell out in 80 degree weather conditions. But people look at him as being better because he is "fiery" and plays with "passion" or whatever the hell any of that means. He had one decent playoff run in 2007, but has come up short in many games despite playing in the worst division in the NFl up until last year.

Even bringing guys like Romo, Ryan, Newton, Cutler, etc into any conversation is just a waste of time and energy. In the world of fantasy football, these guys look like gods, but when push comes to shove, they usually get shoved. Your telling me Eli has played with as talented players that Romo has? Eli never played with HOF talent like Owens, Witten, and possibly Bryant. You think Eli would like to play half his games in a dome like Ryan?

Now I am not singling out posters because everyone is entitled to their opinion and views. But the fact of the matter that we are still pointing out Eli's flaws in 2014 is just sad. I dont care if Peyton or Brady or Favre are or were better players. All I care that is when its all said and done, Eli has given us at least 2 SBs and a lifetime full of memories. And maybe some other QBs could have won more than 2 SBs with our teams. But I know there are many, many more who would have won less.

Taking each year individually on its own, 2011 is the only season that qualifies as decisively north of 'a tick above average'. 2009 is the only other one that is even arguable and I may grant him that given that the wr position was overhauled that offseason.

Bob, playoff record is not that simple. There are tons of factors here that you obviously disregard to push a comparison that is the height of laughable. On no where outside of a ny giant board will anyone over the age of 30 with a brain compare these guys careers like theyre remotely close to equal, and then call someone else saying eli has largely been a tick above average the dumbest thing youve read on this board. Read what you write

Same Guys telling me victor cruz sucks are now lecturing on showing respect to players who have given this organization much

like I said before. The eli die hards who want to hide behind giant fandom for their never wavering support and excuse making, are the same ones to throw every non eli giant under the bus for him

In comment 11876870 MarshallOnMontana said:

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Same Guys telling me victor cruz sucks are now lecturing on showing respect to players who have given this organization much like I said before. The eli die hards who want to hide behind giant fandom for their never wavering support and excuse making, are the same ones to throw every non eli giant under the bus for him

You aren't wrong, and I admit I am a huge Eli defender and hate when other team fans criticize him. Maybe it is because this is the golden era of the QB and there is so much focus on the QB position in the media. Whatever it is, you're right, but I don't care about numbers..I'll always defend the guy for his integral part in two Super Bowl victories.

In comment 11876862 MarshallOnMontana said:

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Taking each year individually on its own, 2011 is the only season that qualifies as decisively north of 'a tick above average'. 2009 is the only other one that is even arguable and I may grant him that given that the wr position was overhauled that offseason.

Before Plax destroyed the 2008 season, Eli was orchestrating a beautifully balanced attack that had the team 10-1 despite an absolutely brutal schedule. To that point, he was completing over 62% of his passes and had 18 TDs compared to only 7 INTs, 3 of which came in that fluke MNF loss in Cleveland.

His numbers weren't gaudy, that's also the problem with basing analysis solely on statistics. He played brilliantly that year.

I dont think he played poorly until plax went down and he was terrible. But he was decisively a secondary factor in his own offense and little was asked of him as a thrower. That was a historic running game with two 1,000 yard rushers, ran the ball over 500 times for over 2500 yards. All season long the offensive line got love nationally as perhaps the best since the mid 90s cowboys. Did eli play fairly well? Sure. Only season of his career he has hit 2 to 1 in td to int actually. Was it way above average? I guess that depends on how you feel about alex smiths best couple years

In comment 11876942 MarshallOnMontana said:

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I dont think he played poorly until plax went down and he was terrible. But he was decisively a secondary factor in his own offense and little was asked of him as a thrower. That was a historic running game with two 1,000 yard rushers, ran the ball over 500 times for over 2500 yards. All season long the offensive line got love nationally as perhaps the best since the mid 90s cowboys. Did eli play fairly well? Sure. Only season of his career he has hit 2 to 1 in td to int actually. Was it way above average? I guess that depends on how you feel about alex smiths best couple years

If you think the training wheels offense teams run with Alex Smith is at all comparable to the responsibility Eli Manning has in the Giants offense, you can't be helped.

Again, that's the problem with looking only at the stats. But have at it.

In comment 11876870 MarshallOnMontana said:

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Same Guys telling me victor cruz sucks are now lecturing on showing respect to players who have given this organization much like I said before. The eli die hards who want to hide behind giant fandom for their never wavering support and excuse making, are the same ones to throw every non eli giant under the bus for him

THIS!

In comment 11876989 David in LA said:

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In comment 11876870 MarshallOnMontana said: Quote: Same Guys telling me victor cruz sucks are now lecturing on showing respect to players who have given this organization much like I said before. The eli die hards who want to hide behind giant fandom for their never wavering support and excuse making, are the same ones to throw every non eli giant under the bus for him THIS!

I'm confused...You don't think Cruz deserved criticism after last week's game? 3 key dropped passes, one which arguably changed the course of the game? You honestly think he did not deserve to catch shit for that AFTER complaining in the press about not getting the ball?

And they struck you as a qb centric offense, than youre the one who cant be helped.

Eli was fine that year. The fact that you try to stretch that into a great year shows how much we need to stretch to find great years. Roethlisberger has that same season, no one here is going gaga. Especially if he flamed out as badly as eli did to end the year.

excellent post.

Meanwhile, Joe pulls out some comparison now to Alex Smith.

The more these conversations drag out, the more I see into the wisdom of what other supposed Giants fans think.

Somebody trying so hard to argue the mediocrity of the torch-carrier for a 2 Super Bowl run seems so wrong on so many levels.

Alex smith 11 or 13, all very similar seasons. The fact that you view this as objectionable shows how much your panties are in a bunch regarding this player. If recent history is any indication, by the time we get together to do this again, you will be telling me I said alex smith was better than eli

but hey, the fact that a bounce off a knee and the nfl thankfully having instant replay is the only thing stopping them from having played in the same number of sbs, shows how dumb it is to boil a career down to such things

In comment 11877006 MarshallOnMontana said:

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And they struck you as a qb centric offense, than youre the one who cant be helped. Eli was fine that year. The fact that you try to stretch that into a great year shows how much we need to stretch to find great years. Roethlisberger has that same season, no one here is going gaga. Especially if he flamed out as badly as eli did to end the year.

Troy Aikman had a bunch of seasons similar to Eli's 2008, and he is in the HOF and regarded as one of the clutchest QBs ever. In fact Aikman had something like 1 year of over 20 TDs and 2 years of over 3,000 yards.

have clearly positively impacted his throwing mechanics and velocity, and his confidence.

He demanded the ball in the week leading up to the game, then had a series of bad drops, one of which set off a sequence that triggered a 10 point swing and shut the lights off.

He deserved the criticism he got last week, how is that "throwing him under the bus to protect Eli" (who by the way, had a fine game even without the Cruz drops). And I've always been, and continue to be, a huge Cruz fan.

Take all the QBs in the NFL and make them eligible for the 2004 draft. Knowing how their careers have panned out, what QBs do you take in front of Eli?


Peyton, Brady, Rodgers, then.....

I already said I wouldnt take Brees in NY. Ben either. Luck is a possibility, but his career is still really young. Rivers, Romo, Newton, Cutler, Ryan arent even in the conversation.

In comment 11876823 dep026 said:

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What I am personally seeing right now is a career that parallels my other favorite current athlete in another sport: Ryan Howard. Howard and Eli have actually had pretty similar careers and shortcomings. Ryan Howard is looked upon as one of the most overrated players in the 21st century because he doesnt hit for average, strikes out a lot, is not a good defender, and cant run. Eli Manning is looked upon as one of the most overrated players in the 21st century because he throws too many INTs, cant run, is not the most accurate, and doesnt make enough expressions. And you know what? I could give two shits about either player. Both players have been INTEGRAL parts of championship teams that I got to see and root for. Both of them work hard, rarely miss time (until Howard ruptured his achilles), and performed at the highest level when it mattered the most. Isnt that what stars are suppose to do? Play their best when it matters the most? Sure they have flaws. Sure they are both ending their careers probably in the next few years. But what they have produced can and should not be questioned, yet somehow they are always in the middle of conversation in regards of their teams failures. Eli Manning is a 2x SB champion and MVP. He has played in one of the toughest stadiums/cities for his entire career and never missed a game. He has played with some very talented teammates who have helped him to accomplish some of his individual accomplishments (Tiki, Shockey, Burress, Smith, Cruz, Bradshaw, Jacobs, Nicks, many OL, etc...) He is a flawed played. He does not throw the perfect spiral, or the deepest ball, or the fastest ball, or even the msot accurate ball. But for 9 out of the 10 years he has been in the league, he has put us in the position to have a chance to make the playoffs, putting us there 5 times. He has won us games, he has lost us games. But regardless of the outcome, he has always had his teammates/coaches backs, never complains, and his work ethic is unquestioned. We all know he isnt Peyton or Brady or even Rodgers. But Ive said a million times, I would take him over Brees in NY. Brees has had the luxury of playing in two of the friendliest atmospheres a QB can have. He played with probably the best offensive mind in the 21st century as well. And I think he has played what, 3 games?, in under 40 degree weather. Guys like Big Ben and Rivers are both very good QB. But do you think Ben would be the ideal fit in NY? Maybe, could be. But that isnt a given. Philip Rivers plays in a stadium that can barely sell out in 80 degree weather conditions. But people look at him as being better because he is "fiery" and plays with "passion" or whatever the hell any of that means. He had one decent playoff run in 2007, but has come up short in many games despite playing in the worst division in the NFl up until last year. Even bringing guys like Romo, Ryan, Newton, Cutler, etc into any conversation is just a waste of time and energy. In the world of fantasy football, these guys look like gods, but when push comes to shove, they usually get shoved. Your telling me Eli has played with as talented players that Romo has? Eli never played with HOF talent like Owens, Witten, and possibly Bryant. You think Eli would like to play half his games in a dome like Ryan? Now I am not singling out posters because everyone is entitled to their opinion and views. But the fact of the matter that we are still pointing out Eli's flaws in 2014 is just sad. I dont care if Peyton or Brady or Favre are or were better players. All I care that is when its all said and done, Eli has given us at least 2 SBs and a lifetime full of memories. And maybe some other QBs could have won more than 2 SBs with our teams. But I know there are many, many more who would have won less.

You knocked it out of the park Dep..

If you want to compare pre 2004 numbers to today, have at it. Theyre playing a different sport now. Aikman was 3rd in the nfl the season he threw 23 touchdowns. And no one including aikman himself would say anything besides ring count Iis the driving force behind aikmans candidacy. Might get eli in at some point too. Doesnt mean he has a career littered with hof caliber seasons, because he doesnt.

...to trying to prove to Giant fans that Eli Manning isn't as good as they think he is or whatever.

It's just... strange.

Who has been down on him and thinks we have basically the worst skill players in the nfl

and cruz isnt beyond criticism. Nor is eli

In comment 11877058 MarshallOnMontana said:

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If you want to compare pre 2004 numbers to today, have at it. Theyre playing a different sport now. Aikman was 3rd in the nfl the season he threw 23 touchdowns. And no one including aikman himself would say anything besides ring count Iis the driving force behind aikmans candidacy. Might get eli in at some point too. Doesnt mean he has a career littered with hof caliber seasons, because he doesnt.

In 1994, things looked like it started to change in the NFL where multiple guys started to reach 4,000 yards or at least 3,500 yards. Aikman never had to be that player because he had such talent every on offense. But it could be argued he became more of a game manager than a game changer. He was still an amazing QB who made a lot of big time throws. But Eli's 2008 season was probably very similar to what Aikman did for at least the last half of his career.

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I still can't understand devoting so much time.. arcarsenal : 6:33 pm : link : reply ...to trying to prove to Giant fans that Eli Manning isn't as good as they think he is or whatever. It's just... strange.

Bingo. Not just trying to prove to Giant fans that Eli is mediocre, but to also drag a bunch of comparisons into play with players like Alex Smith or Mark Sanchez and think that a valid point is being made.

Like I said above, taking so much time to indicate Eli is mediocre just seems about as fucking strange as one can get.

In comment 11877051 dep026 said:

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Take all the QBs in the NFL and make them eligible for the 2004 draft. Knowing how their careers have panned out, what QBs do you take in front of Eli? Peyton, Brady, Rodgers, then..... I already said I wouldnt take Brees in NY. Ben either. Luck is a possibility, but his career is still really young. Rivers, Romo, Newton, Cutler, Ryan arent even in the conversation.

In your hypothetical scenario I still take Eli first.

Over the past year and a half when there was nothing but opportunities to bash him. Mainly because its a losing battle with his army of fanboys.

But the notion on this thread that I saw from a few posters acting like questioning the future of eli is beyond the realm of sanity just because of the past two weeks is too much. Then we get into the stupidity of comparing him to 3x mvps, thats how we get here

Im a bigger giant fan than eli fan. For a lot of you im not sure

Some Giant fans hold their loyalty to the guy in very high regard and maybe it clouds their perceptions but that's how a lot of fans are. You see a guy hoist the Lombardi for you not once, but twice and both in pretty incredible fashion and it's hard to come down hard on him when he's not playing so well. To me, it's pretty understandable. An athlete brings you more joy in the sporting world than any other (for a lot of fans here) you naturally, you're going to gravitate toward defending him as much as humanly possible.

The people who never see any fault in him are obviously not always realistic but it's no worse than people who wanted Nassib in there before we even took a snap this year.. and those existed too. And will exist again the next time he throws a pick.

Fan is short for fanatic. It's always going to involve exaggeration in one direction or another. Especially when there are this many people expressing their opinions.

If I'm going to spend time "correcting" one group of extremists, I'd probably rather go for the guys who think this QB is a worthless sack of shit who has never accomplished anything and let his biggest fans just enjoy him because we root for the same team and he's our QB... but that's me.

In comment 11877086 arcarsenal said:

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Some Giant fans hold their loyalty to the guy in very high regard and maybe it clouds their perceptions but that's how a lot of fans are. You see a guy hoist the Lombardi for you not once, but twice and both in pretty incredible fashion and it's hard to come down hard on him when he's not playing so well. To me, it's pretty understandable. An athlete brings you more joy in the sporting world than any other (for a lot of fans here) you naturally, you're going to gravitate toward defending him as much as humanly possible. The people who never see any fault in him are obviously not always realistic but it's no worse than people who wanted Nassib in there before we even took a snap this year.. and those existed too. And will exist again the next time he throws a pick. Fan is short for fanatic. It's always going to involve exaggeration in one direction or another. Especially when there are this many people expressing their opinions. If I'm going to spend time "correcting" one group of extremists, I'd probably rather go for the guys who think this QB is a worthless sack of shit who has never accomplished anything and let his biggest fans just enjoy him because we root for the same team and he's our QB... but that's me.

+1000 You and FMIC are doing yomens work on this thread.

I was ridiculously quiet about eli all last year during his horrible season. The notion that im on some anti eli mission is absurd.

This is so pointless. Cant have any conversation about this player without guys getting their panties riled up en masse. Cant ever bring stats into the conversation because they have a well known eli manning bias. Plus all of elis fanboys are a bunch of god damn football geniuses who have evolved beyond ever having any use for them. We just know eli is awesome because he won 2 sbs, we will bash other giants incessantly to hype him, and asserting that eli has largely been merely a tick above average for the bulk of his career save two well timed months, is somehow cause for me having an agenda.

In comment 11876408 MarshallOnMontana said:

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... this site sometimes is crazy defensive about this player. Dude is coming off an atrocious last year and a half, strings 2 solid games together, and now we are calling out anyone who had the nerve to knock his play, painting them as fringe loons. Please

See, that's the problem though. Nobody with any football experience can honestly defend a statement that Manning is coming off an ATROCIOUS year and a half. The offensive line was probably the worst offensive line any NFL team has put on the field in the last 50 years - certainly the worst I've ever seen in my lifetime.

So, there is no way - absolutely no way - for you or anyone else to know how any other relatively immobile QB would have played had they played for the Giants last year. Not Brady. Not Peyton. Heck, not even Drew Brees or Rodgers, but of whom are much more mobile.

The OL was so bad that it wasn't possible to measure or evaluate the play of any other offensive position. No running game. No passing game. Nothing but pressures and sacks. I generally like your posts, but to put a label like "atrocious" to describe Manning sounds an awful like an agenda or lack of knowledge, or both.

statistics...

In comment 11877060 arcarsenal said:

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...to trying to prove to Giant fans that Eli Manning isn't as good as they think he is or whatever. It's just... strange.

Someone brought up Favre then someone else was critical of Favre.

By how this usually goes, there's going to be a Vinny Testeverde comparison coming soon and the thread won't die for a week.

You've had your share of spats just like this. It's always the same type of argument. I guess I just don't know why you're so determined to make people "see the light" and think less about a guy they are big fans of.

There are Giant fans who love Eli Manning and will be eternally grateful for what what he gave them. You don't have to.. that's fine. I just don't see the point in going all stat crazy to prove his mediocrity and make sure everyone holds your same opinion of him, which you seem to believe is more correct than theirs

coherent because they have a woeful grasp of statistics, and how to mitigate the natural problems inherent of simply looking at the means.

It's correlation vs. causation all wrapped up in a remarkably dull-witted exterior.

Until I realized he's the same guy that rips Nicks and Cruz apart at any given moment. FMIC has been consistent about pretty much not criticizing any Giant, which I think is absurd in its own right, but at least he's consistent and doesn't hold Eli above any other Giant.

You should only be offended by the posts on this thread if you had some crazy idea that Eli is/was an "elite" QB. 2011 I'd give him the elite tag, that's about it. Which is more than fine. He gave us 2 SB wins, he doesn't have to be a first ballot HOFer for me to appreciate the fact that he was a driving force behind them.

In comment 11877106 AnotherGiantsFan said:

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Until I realized he's the same guy that rips Nicks and Cruz apart at any given moment. FMIC has been consistent about pretty much not criticizing any Giant, which I think is absurd in its own right, but at least he's consistent and doesn't hold Eli above any other Giant. You should only be offended by the posts on this thread if you had some crazy idea that Eli is/was an "elite" QB. 2011 I'd give him the elite tag, that's about it. Which is more than fine. He gave us 2 SB wins, he doesn't have to be a first ballot HOFer for me to appreciate the fact that he was a driving force behind them.

I gave props to Cruz as soon as I got home from the game yesterday. I have no problem praising them when they play well. But I think I was spot on about Nicks last year. And will have no problem eating my words if Cruz played like he did yesterday.

Is so determined to express Eli's mediocrity but was praising Russell Wilson on the gamethread last night. Look up mediocrity in the dictionary and you'll see RW cheesing it in his senior HS photo.

Guy has the most talented team gifted to him where his job requirement is "Don't do anything to lose the game and we won't need you to do anything to win us the game.".

He refuses to acknowledge how Favre threw awful passes to blow playoff runs.

In comment 11877086 arcarsenal said:

Quote:

Some Giant fans hold their loyalty to the guy in very high regard and maybe it clouds their perceptions but that's how a lot of fans are. You see a guy hoist the Lombardi for you not once, but twice and both in pretty incredible fashion and it's hard to come down hard on him when he's not playing so well. To me, it's pretty understandable. An athlete brings you more joy in the sporting world than any other (for a lot of fans here) you naturally, you're going to gravitate toward defending him as much as humanly possible. The people who never see any fault in him are obviously not always realistic but it's no worse than people who wanted Nassib in there before we even took a snap this year.. and those existed too. And will exist again the next time he throws a pick. Fan is short for fanatic. It's always going to involve exaggeration in one direction or another. Especially when there are this many people expressing their opinions. If I'm going to spend time "correcting" one group of extremists, I'd probably rather go for the guys who think this QB is a worthless sack of shit who has never accomplished anything and let his biggest fans just enjoy him because we root for the same team and he's our QB... but that's me.

This is EXACTLY how I feel. I'm a Giant fan first and foremost, I was a diehard Giant fan during the Kerry Collins era preceding Eli and I will be a diehard Giant fan whoever takes over for Eli under center, BUT..

For my history as a sports fan, Eli is the first player I followed for the duration of his career closely. I still remember my freshman year of college when Coughlin announced him the starter after the Arizona game, and all of the ups and downs throughout the first few years of his career. I've heard he was a bust, I've heard we should have drafted Big Ben, I've heard we should have drafted Rivers, and then we won it all in 07, and AGAIN in 11. Amazing.

I grew up with Patrick Ewing, but was too young to remember his early years. The Mets traded for Piazza so it just isn't the same. I've experienced all the ups and downs with Eli and has been an integral part of TWO SB Titles, I'm sorry but that is a huge deal and we are all Giant fans.

Am I a homer? Probably, but fuck it, I'm a fan.

that if you are in a game for all the marbles, you put him in Starr's, Staubach's, Unitas, Montana and Brady's class..No one is in Eli's class when you need that clutch performance in a winner take all game..

That's how I've always judged winners in my 58 seasons of bleeding Giants football..Jimmy Brown was the best RB that ever lived. There are many who have statistically passed him. None have passed his greatness..I judge players and teams differently than many others..We each have our individual takes..

Why did the meme that Eli Manning had a bad second half of 2012 become accepted as fact on BBI?

By my count, he had three bad games, one so-so game and four good games. I think some guys have been fudging facts to fit their argument and it just caught on without being questioned as much as it should have been

Code:

2012 REGULAR SEASON GAME LOG PASSING RUSHING DATE OPP RESULT CMP ATT YDS CMP% AVG LNG TD INT QBR RAT ATT YDS AVG LNG TD Wed 9/5 vs DAL - L 17-24 21 32 213 65.6 6.66 39 1 0 58.1 94.9 0 0 0.0 0 0 Sun 9/16 vs TB - W 41-34 31 51 510 60.8 10.00 80 3 3 59.4 89.5 3 -2 -0.7 0 0 Thu 9/20 @ CAR - W 36-7 27 35 288 77.1 8.23 29 1 0 92.7 110.2 2 5 2.5 4 0 Sun 9/30 @ PHI - L 17-19 24 42 309 57.1 7.36 41 2 1 71.4 86.3 0 0 0.0 0 0 Sun 10/7 vs CLE - W 41-27 25 37 259 67.6 7.00 36 3 1 95.5 103.3 2 -1 -0.5 0 0 Sun 10/14 @ SF - W 26-3 15 28 193 53.6 6.89 39 1 0 94.4 87.4 3 -2 -0.7 1 0 Sun 10/21 vs WSH - W 27-23 26 40 337 65.0 8.43 77 1 2 75.7 78.9 2 4 2.0 5 0 Sun 10/28 @ DAL - W 29-24 15 29 192 51.7 6.62 56 0 1 49.4 58.4 1 3 3.0 3 0 Sun 11/4 vs PIT - L 20-24 10 24 125 41.7 5.21 33 0 1 16.1 41.1 0 0 0.0 0 0 Sun 11/11 @ CIN - L 13-31 29 46 215 63.0 4.67 16 0 2 19.9 56.0 1 1 1.0 1 0 Sun 11/25 vs GB - W 38-10 16 30 249 53.3 8.30 59 3 0 88.7 114.4 2 12 6.0 13 0 Mon 12/3 @ WSH - L 16-17 20 33 280 60.6 8.49 49 1 0 79.4 98.0 1 5 5.0 5 0 Sun 12/9 vs NO - W 52-27 22 35 259 62.9 7.40 35 4 2 52.7 99.6 2 -3 -1.5 -1 0 Sun 12/16 @ ATL - L 0-34 13 25 161 52.0 6.44 37 0 2 4.7 38.9 0 0 0.0 0 0 Sun 12/23 @ BAL - L 14-33 14 28 150 50.0 5.36 43 1 0 37.5 78.0 1 8 8.0 8 0 Sun 12/30 vs PHI - W 42-7 13 21 208 61.9 9.91 41 5 0 99.6 134.5 0 0 0.0 0 0 REGULAR SEASON STATS 321 536 3,948 59.9 7.37 80 26 15 68.9 87.2 20 30 1.5 13 0 2nd half of the season stats 137 242 1647 445.4 55.78 313 14 7 49.8 82.6

Link - ( New Window )

But I wouldn't trust many of them in a SB game. No game is too big for Eli, and he's proved that. He's battle tested. But there's no doubt that he's a streaky QB.

I really thought after that SB run Eli hit his prime and was going to have a few years of truly elite QB play. That hasn't really happened. We can blame his surroundings (OL, WR) all we want, but elite QBs find a way to adapt and carry. Andrew Luck, who I already consider an elite top 5 QB, is not on a good football team but still manages to keep his team in just about every game and bring them to the playoffs.

Hell, Eli found a way to adapt in his 2011 run and put the team on his back until the rest of the team was finally able to put it together. Which is why that is the year I have said is his lone "elite" year. It's not something you want your QB having to go through, but the elite ones do find a way. Maybe that's just where we differ on how to interpret the word elite.

Disclaimer : This post has nothing to do with Eli being done. Not being elite and being a good QB are two entirely separate arguments. I think Eli can still be the latter for a couple of years.

the samples are too small for most players.

If I go back through the years, I've probably only ever said bad things about a few players.

Ones that I can think of are Mike Croel, Mike Horan, Dan Reeves and Ray Handley. I didn't even really get on dave Brown because the guy played his heart out here.

Part of that was growing up in the 70's where you pulled for players who had little talent, but tried hard. you could picture yourself having a beer next to Joe Pisarcik, and you probably thought you could play QB the next day, just like him.

But it is more of a philosophical issue. Why should I invest so much time following a team if I'm going to rip guys? I assume that most players are giving effort and not intentionally trying to screw the team, so outside of that, I'm really not going to whine about them not entertaining me enough. I do have a certain disdain for guys who are detrimental to the team - like Will Hill or Plaxico.

You might find that hard to understand, but I find it equally hard to understand how people can root for the team and take what seems like a fair amount of glee in bashing the very players they root for.

In the same vein of thinking, I really don't understand spending so much time in trying to minimize the accomplishments of guys like eli, especially with absurd comparisons to Alex Smith or Mark Sanchez.

I mean, that isn't out of the box thinking - it is simply a waste of time.

In comment 11877342 FatMan in Charlotte said:

Quote:

If I go back through the years, I've probably only ever said bad things about a few players. Ones that I can think of are Mike Croel, Mike Horan, Dan Reeves and Ray Handley. I didn't even really get on dave Brown because the guy played his heart out here. Part of that was growing up in the 70's where you pulled for players who had little talent, but tried hard. you could picture yourself having a beer next to Joe Pisarcik, and you probably thought you could play QB the next day, just like him. But it is more of a philosophical issue. Why should I invest so much time following a team if I'm going to rip guys? I assume that most players are giving effort and not intentionally trying to screw the team, so outside of that, I'm really not going to whine about them not entertaining me enough. I do have a certain disdain for guys who are detrimental to the team - like Will Hill or Plaxico. You might find that hard to understand, but I find it equally hard to understand how people can root for the team and take what seems like a fair amount of glee in bashing the very players they root for. In the same vein of thinking, I really don't understand spending so much time in trying to minimize the accomplishments of guys like eli, especially with absurd comparisons to Alex Smith or Mark Sanchez. I mean, that isn't out of the box thinking - it is simply a waste of time.

There's a fine line between criticizing and bashing. Some people think they are critiquing while they are bashing, and some people believe any criticism on a player is a form of bashing.

I barely whine about this team or about a player, I was absent from a lot of the threads during last season because I couldn't handle the posters having meltdowns. But I definitely criticize this team. That's partially due to me expecting so much from this franchise. You have a mindset from the 70s. I was born in the 90s and have experienced success more often than failure as a fan. As a Knicks fan, I'm used to failure and pretty much numb to any and all shortcomings. It's all gravy to me at this point.

If I'm going to invest time into a team, I'm going to be realistic at where we are and what we can be. If I wanted to be a blind homer, I wouldn't pay attention to how Johnathan Hankins is performing and would just whip out the pom poms. It's easy to praise and it's easy to bash, but it's not always easy to be critical. I think that's where the best discussions on this site stem from.

You see bashing on this thread, I see criticism. I guess it's up to interpretation.

on this thread. I see a continued pattern from Joe of making an issue of trying to convince people that eli is mediocre.

I actually don't mind when people are critical. I tend to respond to extremes of both sides. when I hear people wanting to start Nassib, a few weeks after wanting to cut Nassib, I respond. I also respond when people say that Eli is a first ballot HoF'er right now. I really don't like exaggeration in either direction.

I don't tend to pick too much at people who are critical and rational, but I do tend to go hard at people who are critical without having either football knowledge or they assume that they are more proficient at the game than the y show through their posts.

I always found this at play with the Gilbride critics. I didn't have much issue with people who questioned some playcalls, but I had a huge issue with people calling him Killdrive or saying "We ALWAYS run on 2nd and 10". And frankly, on BBI you have a lot of morons making that type of shitty, shallow analysis and calling anyone who disagrees a homer. But going back to my previous post, I'm not sure why being a homer is an insult. If I bleed blue, why do I want to cut up the very people I root for until I see red?

For years, I spent time in the training rooms of professional sports, I often went to the combine. And so many times, I heard things from these insiders that completely contradicted what fans of an assortment of teams said. I'd like to be critical, but whenever I am and step back, it just seems like I'm whining about not being entertained enough and I'm doing it without having the right information to base a solid argument on. I can't call the training staff incompetent fucks because I know them and I've seen how well respected they are by their peers. Same goes for the coaches. I can disagree with some strategy, but I'll be damned to know for sure if I'm right or wrong. Meanwhile, so many people here don't give a holy shit if they are right or wrong, they just want to bitch and could give a fuck if it makes sense.

I agree with most of what you're saying, which is why I don't think we're debating about the same thing anymore. There's no doubt a lot of posters bitch and moan on this site, which is why your weekly Game Day call out threads were a raging success.

There's nothing wrong with being a homer, but it does discredit an opinion some when your knee jerk reaction is to be pro-giants. We're all giant fans here, but some of us don't prefer the circle jerking high horse mentality of "I'm a better fan than you because I don't criticize the team" which runs rampant on this site.

I'm not perfect and don't pretend to be. I've said repeatedly throughout the offseason that this OL is going to be brutal to watch. I've formed that opinion from last years performance and not believing that the acquisitions made will suffice.

This past week against the Texans was encouraging for the OL. Now if the Giants somehow consistently get solid OL play, I bet my left nut that there will be a thread calling out anyone who questioned the Giants OL.

These posters love to jump at the opportunity to call out anyone who questions this team even though there are valid reasons to doubt. In the same breath, these same posters who love to post call out threads have no rationale other than "bleeding blue".

It's a two way street.

from the OP. Almost a great post dep - maybe your best ever - until you start noting Eli's lack of a supporting cast at offensive skills positions. You are just so far off on that it's hilarious. Tiki, Shockey, Toomer, Plax, Jacobs, Bradshaw, Smith, Nicks, Cruz, Manningham, Boss... Reese has, if anything, over-invested in offensive skills positions to buffet Eli over his tenure. Where he's failed is on the OL.

One quality Eli's demonstrated at the all-time great level is toughness, both physical and mental. Another is a remarkable ability to rise to the occasion on any single play. For those two qualities alone, he should be fully appreciated by Giants' fans.

18-0 is a Dragon.Like another poster said, there isn't another QB in the NFL I'd rather have in a Championship game, or myself, in any playoff game.Week in and week out stats? What is that? What does that mean? Seriously, what does it mean? Romo's week in and week out stats blow Manning away over the course of their careers. Good luck convincing me or anyone outside of Amani Toomer and Jerry Jones he is the better QB.

In comment 11877664 BlueLou said:

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from the OP. Almost a great post dep - maybe your best ever - until you start noting Eli's lack of a supporting cast at offensive skills positions. You are just so far off on that it's hilarious. Tiki, Shockey, Toomer, Plax, Jacobs, Bradshaw, Smith, Nicks, Cruz, Manningham, Boss... Reese has, if anything, over-invested in offensive skills positions to buffet Eli over his tenure. Where he's failed is on the

I said all those guys were very talented and have helped eli achieve all of his accomplishments. I don't know how you thought I was putting them down????

In comment 11876272 MarshallOnMontana said:

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Spoken like someone who only recalls the back portion of favres career, which still compares favorably to elis prime Eli over favre for prime, peak or career is one of the dumbest things ever uttered in the history of western civilization. Lowest common denominator ring counting is about the only thing to cite.

Not what I posted. I posted that Farve gets a pass for his INTs. Eli was ahuige for twio Superbowl runs and wins. The fact that he's very immobile and the OLhas been horrendous. Along with an offensive scheme that leaves many INTs there Eli other than some Giants fans gets almost no slack.

Farve is a HOF 1st ballot guy but his INTs at times cost his teams games. I'm willing to give Eli slack. You don't have to but its an opinion either way. I'm entitled to mine just as you are entitled to yous as I feel two Superbowl runs are signifigant data points in my book.

.

Let's enjoy it.

In comment 11877750 Ira said:

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Let's enjoy it.

Just add water and give him 3.5 seconds back there and I'll take Eli for the win. Thank you very much.

In comment 11877043 MarshallOnMontana said:

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Alex smith 11 or 13, all very similar seasons. The fact that you view this as objectionable shows how much your panties are in a bunch regarding this player. If recent history is any indication, by the time we get together to do this again, you will be telling me I said alex smith was better than eli but hey, the fact that a bounce off a knee and the nfl thankfully having instant replay is the only thing stopping them from having played in the same number of sbs, shows how dumb it is to boil a career down to such things

If you swapped QBs in that game, the 49ers win 35-10.

And let me know when Alex Smith makes a throw as good as Eli's TD to Manningham on 3rd-and-15.

you are talking to a guy who refers to people as "eli's fanboys" because they, wait for it - - - actually root for the starting QB of the team they follow!

GASP!

first game I remember). I was also there when the Meadowlands opened in 1976 and we were 0-9 before getting our first win. This has been one of the top 3 era's in Giants football history, and I can't bring myself to criticize the players and coaches who have brought it to us. Soon enough we will regress back to 5-11 consistently, every team almost does, and then people will talk about how great the Manning era was.

can feel anything towards Eli besides a deep sense of gratitude. I just don't get it.

And I never will.

going forward...I wouldn't agree with the argument against him but it's a fair question.

But to knock or lessen his role in the titles already achieved...to me it's beyond the pale.

I can't believe how out of touch people are in regards to paying a QB like Eli.

I saw a pretty well respected poster say last week that they would think a realistic extension this offseason would be 3 years, 21 million.

Exactly!

Here is a perfect example when trying to elevate Alex Smith and lessen Eli:

Quote:

but hey, the fact that a bounce off a knee and the nfl thankfully having instant replay is the only thing stopping them from having played in the same number of sbs, shows how dumb it is to boil a career down to such things

A few problems here:
- It is being rationalized that the only reason the Giants won against SF is due to a lucky bounce and replay
- Aklex Smith would've been in 2 SB's, but not really played, since he wasn't even the starter the following year vs. Baltimore.

In effect, Joe slams people for pointing out facts and "making things up", when he is creating scenarios that don't even exist, aren't even true, and he's extrapolating them all in an effort to lessen eli's achievements. Meanwhile, bring up Favre, and the guy has a fucking coronary trying to reason why he only has 1 SB.

Yet, he has no fucking clue how hypocritical his arguments are.

In order to win two SBs, with or without luck, you have to have a winning streak through two postseasons.

Someone remind me, who was it that did that?

Tick.

this thread pass into the ethers

on Eli. And I think it sums him, and many fans, up perfectly...
Haters gonna hate - ( New Window )

In comment 11877909 PatersonPlank said:

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first game I remember). I was also there when the Meadowlands opened in 1976 and we were 0-9 before getting our first win. This has been one of the top 3 era's in Giants football history, and I can't bring myself to criticize the players and coaches who have brought it to us. Soon enough we will regress back to 5-11 consistently, every team almost does, and then people will talk about how great the Manning era was.

Amen!! Well said! We went through more QB'S then Ellen Degeneres f%&ked women. We will sit back and remember fondly Ole Eli!!!

In comment 11877116 AnotherGiantsFan said:

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Is so determined to express Eli's mediocrity but was praising Russell Wilson on the gamethread last night. Look up mediocrity in the dictionary and you'll see RW cheesing it in his senior HS photo. Guy has the most talented team gifted to him where his job requirement is "Don't do anything to lose the game and we won't need you to do anything to win us the game.".

Lol Russell wilson is anything but mediocre. My god make this shit stop. We can't talk about Eli without disparaging other qbs or players. It's gotten to the point where no one is right anymore. In the eternal Eli debate, everyone is fucking insane. You me and Eli...all insane. I give up.

And let's see Eli play two good games in a row before we coronate him as comeback player of the year. For the love of holy shit

I'd like to personally call out every lunatic Eli defender that has literately forced me to become an Eli "realist." I used to be a defender too until I made peace with what he was and is. He's an up and down QB that saved his best play for the biggest spots. And there is nothing wrong with that. He's done more than most. He can sit at a dinner table with some of the biggest QB legends to ever play the game and he would belong at that table. But he's not perfect. At times he's brutal. And I'm fine with that.

Hopefully Eli has the last laugh this year once again. We need him to carry this franchise.

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..I'd like to personally call out every lunatic Eli defender that has literately forced me to become an Eli "realist." I used to be a defender too until I made peace with what he was and is. He's an up and down QB that saved his best play for the biggest spots. And there is nothing wrong with that. He's done more than most. He can sit at a dinner table with some of the biggest QB legends to ever play the game and he would belong at that table. But he's not perfect. At times he's brutal. And I'm fine with that.

I hear you..And he may have a shitty performance here and there. However, you give him reasonable protection and with his smarts and physical ability, he's gonna be really effective. This O may be just what the doctor ordered for him. We shall see on that.

But, as FMiC pointed out on this thread, he's a "gunslinger" and he's gonna make mistakes, but not to the tune of 27 INTs imv..

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Eli Manning is hardly ready to wave goodbye after 10 years as the Giants’ starting quarterback, and in that time he has seen his NFC East rivals go through 26 QBs who have yet to measure up the two-time Super Bowl MVP.

26!!!

I'll say this. Eli has had a GREAT career. His great moments far outweigh his downside as a player. He's probably been victimized by a tough system and stupid Wrs but so have other qbs.

I also think Eli is () this close to a hof career. He's right there. One or two productive seasons and some compiling and he should get in. So don't shit all over me please.

To one or two posts. Seems this thread is pretty civil.

Eli is making me a believer again but we need to see more. I won't lie I was a little nervous heading into this season but after the last 6 or so quarters it looks like Eli and this offense has turned the corner.

Question is, was last week's win the start of something special or just fools gold? We shall see. The OL play has me believing it's not fools gold.

Last thing-- Russell Wilson is fucking awesome. If you love Eli you should be able to recognize great QB play when you see it. Wilson is great. If he was average the hawks aren't the best team in football.

have done a good job of finding the middle ground in this never ending argument on here. I think that's where the truth lies. Good posts, guys.

Andy Reid knew McNabb was cooked. We wouldn't have known it from those two games, though. The next year, Michael Vick looked unstoppable for about two months... until he reverted to being Michael Vick.

Personally, I think Eli is far from done, and I love the way he has looked the past two weeks. It's just too small a sample to support meaningful conclusions.

when it comes to Eli....the "haters" have never accepted his faults and the "defenders" have never acknowledged them.

..

In comment 11883438 GMenLTS said:

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..

Yup.

.

yup
yup
yup
yup
yup

One for every TD.

He can still ball. :)

Wooooooo Hooooooooo !!!

Fuck y'all haters. We were right!!!!

....the teet of greatness.

but he's been a fucking warrior for this franchise. He takes a beating and has won huge games for this franchise.

He takes shit from Giant fans, he takes shit from the media, and we all know opposing fans give him shit all the time, but he never complains and he always competes.

I'm so glad he's our QB, and if Giant fans don't appreciate him, I feel sorry for them...because I doubt the next guy will be nearly as good.

We can offer him 7 million a year for 3 years and extend him.

that plan, coach!

In comment 11883970 dorgan said:

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We can offer him 7 million a year for 3 years and extend him.

Yeah... ummm, well he did throw a pick tonight, albeit it should have been his 6th TD of the night, but it was a bad decision.

I'm thinking that number goes down a bit.

over the last three games is back to making me wonder what kind of numbers he actually is/has been capable of putting up -- maybe even huge ones, even accounting for perhaps a slightly elevated INT count above the "elite" standard because that is just who he is to some extent.

In comment 11884032 Riggies said:

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over the last three games is back to making me wonder what kind of numbers he actually is/has been capable of putting up -- maybe even huge ones, even accounting for perhaps a slightly elevated INT count above the "elite" standard because that is just who he is to some extent.

I just said to my friend, it's a good thing we won those 2 Super Bowls.. because those are the 2 reasons I won't let that thought bother me as much.

I respect what Gilbride accomplished here but I can't help but think that this is the type of offense that Eli maybe could have been best in all along.

At the very least, I wanted to find out. So far, and the sample is very small which I fully understand.. but it's starting to make me feel like that hunch could be right.

This just looks like Eli maximizing his ability. He gets to the line with ~15 seconds left, he sees the look the defense is showing, he has time to make adjustments, he has time to make his checks and it just seems like he knows exactly where to go with the ball every single time. It's impressive.

It looks to me like we're running most of our plays out of the gun.. it's kind of the most he has ever looked like Peyton to me. (I'm not saying he IS Peyton, obviously)

"Eli is not fit for that offense....He looks done."

-Ron Jaworski on AZ Sports radio before the Cardinals game

Regression to a mean or something.

ask Brian Orokpo's opinion....

.

Eli put on a showcase of his physical skills last night.

He can still make all the throws, and even showed off his wheels a little bit.

There will be ups and downs and I'm sure there will be some stinkers along the way, but PHYSICALLY, Eli is clearly fine.

.

.

In comment 11884977 Britt in VA said:

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yup.

.

My biggest worry was his mechanics. But.. after these last 3 games, I have zero concerns about that anymore.

This was the first time really since Minnesota in 2007 (and even then, I wasn't going crazy) that ANY doubt about Eli had ever crept into my head. Thankfully it went away about as quickly as it came.

It's not about "just one game" for me, I just needed to see Eli play at this level again. I needed to see him make throws and look in control and comfortable again.

Eli has a lot of ball left in him. I'm excited.

In comment 11884652 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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ask Brian Orokpo's opinion....

LoL - Is that Orakpo'ed or Eli'ed !?

There has to be something that can still rile up enough people and get them to complain about

And not lose one where he was heavily favored.





oh wait...

Agf- im not sure what youre talking about. Im a fan of wilson but ive never painted him as some top 5 qb. Seems to me you are the one who takes an extreme position on him, as you routinely talk about how much he sucks, but whatevet

fmic- dont know why you need this explained to you, but if one guy is playing in sb 46, the other isnt. All of this alex smith not playing against baltimore stuff.........

manh- the ny giants did that. Eli manning was a big part, but its a fools errand to equate team accomplishments with individual greatness, especially in a sport with this many moving parts and the high degree of randomness that comes with single elimination playoffs. This is just bottom of the barrell simplicity from lowest common denominator sports fans. Nothing more silly than ring counters

As for the rest, I dont hate eli, never have. Dont have a regular presence here bashing him. He has played very well the last couple weeks, hope it keeps up. I dont doubt he has the potential for a big year. Also think its fair to note to some eli apologists that maybe this supporting cast isnt as horrifyingly garbage as was made out to be by some. I guess it is humanly possible to play well with the pieces reese gave him. Lets give jr some credit

Im very excited by how comfortable eli looks in this offense. This could be a big year.

That last sentence to you reads kind of rough. I wasnt speaking to you individually there, just more broadly. It reads like a personal shot and wasnt intended to be. My apologies

Quote:

fmic- dont know why you need this explained to you, but if one guy is playing in sb 46, the other isnt. All of this alex smith not playing against baltimore stuff.........

Why would this even be pointed out in the first place?

You are the one that made some ridiculous reference to Alex smith as if an unlucky bounce is the only thing keeping him from being a Super Bowl great.

Frankly, I should just let these weird comparisons speak for themselves. Why you keep pulling them out is another question altogether.

Taking so much time to try and classify eli as mediocre or compare him to below average QB's is one of those "WTF?" moments.

Joe - if this isn't you, I apologize, but who was the jacknut who kept acting as if Asante Samuel dropped an "easy" INT that would have invalidated the 2007 SB win?

You know, the one that Samuel got a fingertip on?

I know some jackass was beating that drum. The "what if" game is a frequent tool for those who don't accept history.

needs to live forever. Eli is feeding off it.

In comment 11877116 AnotherGiantsFan said:

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Is so determined to express Eli's mediocrity but was praising Russell Wilson on the gamethread last night. Look up mediocrity in the dictionary and you'll see RW cheesing it in his senior HS photo. Guy has the most talented team gifted to him where his job requirement is "Don't do anything to lose the game and we won't need you to do anything to win us the game.".

This weird anti Russell Wilson axe you grind is getting weirder, especially in light of how he did in fact really help them win yet another game against another elite QB last week. I think he's something like 8-0 against the Brady's, Mannings, Rodgers and Brees of the world.

and anyone disparaging Russell Wilson's play is just being weird.

I think you're letting an Eli agenda blind you if you are trying to find problems with a QB like Russel Wilson. How many times will you see a good playoff team get their ass kicked simply because their QB is average before you realize that great teams are rarely great when the QB isn't good enough? How many teams have won without the QB since 2000? ONE? Maybe TWO?

Watch some of plays Wilson made the last two postseasons and tell me that his play is easily mirrored by any other run of the mill QB. You're high if you believe that.

in the playoffs all because the QB is average....

Typo in first post.

In comment 11885878 santacruzom said:

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This weird anti Russell Wilson axe you grind is getting weirder, especially in light of how he did in fact really help them win yet another game against another elite QB last week. I think he's something like 8-0 against the Brady's, Mannings, Rodgers and Brees of the world.

I have no idea why QB vs QB W/L means anything when there are 52 other players on each team.

It's Seattle's defense, beastmode, and RW (in that order) that are 8-0 against those QB's.

I'm not even Anti-RW. But there's this growing sentiment that him and a guy luck Luck should be in the same discussion. Or that RW has surpassed Luck. It's nonsense.

But that's my last post about RW on this thread, I don't want to hijack the thread after a great win by the Giants.

is that it paints a picture as if thinking it's remotely possible that the offense might be a poor fit was a ridiculous notion to begin with. The book on Eli tracing back to Ole Miss was that when he misses, he misses high. I'm thrilled to see Eli getting comfortable in this offense, but people somehow think that taking this position after a year and a half of stinkers makes me a hater of some sort.

.

that said definitively that Eli's physical skills were in decline.

if he repeated last year, it most likely would have meant we start moving in a new direction. My concern was never that his skills diminished, just had doubts whether or not the scheme was a good fit to begin with.

You have quoted nothing but mistruths and half truths all from a thread that is literally about 5 years old now and are basing around that some notion that im some consistently vocal eli manning basher on some crusade to prove his mediocrity. Please. As has been said here before, the sensitivity to any eli criticism is off the charts.

about eli than anybody

that being said, i think mcadoo may realize quickly that eli is even better than aaron rodgers. imagine that? betcha he'd of laughed at that a few months ago

#icewater #clutch

In comment 11886049 area junc said:

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about eli than anybody that being said, i think mcadoo may realize quickly that eli is even better than aaron rodgers. imagine that? betcha he'd of laughed at that a few months ago #icewater #clutch

Did Eli do coke on the bench? Is that why he did so well?

Thats what this team needs.

in gilbride's offense and see if he wins 2 Super Bowls

All be it not in vivid detail at all, im betting willfully so, that I said some things you didnt like about eli during the 2009 nfl playoffs, is a testament to that. I dont even discuss eli that regularly on this site because its largely pointless. Let alone be some regular basher of him

you probably keep a file back to 2004 titled "mean things said about eli"

In comment 11886056 area junc said:

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in gilbride's offense and see if he wins 2 Super Bowls

He probably pulls his hair out when his receivers cause his INT rate to skyrocket.

I agree that the NFL is a team sport in the sense that every SB team has had balance and hitting on all cylinders during the playoff run. My question to you though is that you have been very vocal in your criticism of Peyton Manning in the big game, is that in context of a GOAT discussion? On one hand you preach a team accomplishment for SB's, but on the other hand very critical of Peyton in big games.