If nothing else, can we put the Eli is physically in decline

In comment 11876449 Big Blue '56 said:

Quote:

Quote: ....It's really that simple. Eli had crap around him but he was also playing like crap. Even when he had time last year, he was making inaccurate throws and dumb decisions. I love Eli but I think it's perfectly fair to give him a share of the blame for last season. When your Franchise QB can't make your offense any better than the 30th ranked unit in the league and has a TD:INT ratio straight out of the 1960s, you question if he's a part of the problem... You can't have it both ways. You can't have an atrocious line AND assert that he was playing like crap. There's a cause and effect here..He played like crap BECAUSE he had an awful OL the last 2 years..Did he make mistakes anyway? Sure, he tried to do too much, but as FMiC pointed out, this is what you get with a gunslinger mentality..Even when the OL protected Eli on a consistent basis, he played like crap at times..That dreadful OL caused him to play like crap MOST OF THE TIME..

Why can't you have it both ways? If the OL plays poorly, that automatically gets the QB off the hook for playing poorly?

The OL was pathetic last year and I'm not saying otherwise. Our interior OL play in particular was just terrible and made it tough for Eli to step into a throw with the pocket collapsing from the inside.

But that doesn't completely excuse Eli's performance. Even when he had time last year, Eli was throwing the ball inaccurately and making dumb throws.

Quote:

woe is eli, sure MarshallOnMontana : 2:00 pm : link : reply Dude has an army of defenders here who have absolved him of any and all blame for anything ever

You play the game for titles. When a guy delivers two of them and does it in a tough, iconic way, excuse me for giving him A LOT of slack.

The bigger question is: why are so many people so eager to tear Eli down? It isn't like he's a criminal, a jackass, or even a braggart.

Why is it that people are almost gleeful when he fails and are looking to bury him at any turn. We want titles, then we get them and we shit on the very person who pretty much hand-delivered them.

Very, very odd.

Clearly the mvp of that team during the regular season on one leg, had an epic nfc title game, caught the game winning td in the sb, but woe is eli for being saddled with him.

Give me a fucking break.

Sometimes Eli can suck without any help from the OL. But not often. And sometimes he sucks because he never gets into a rhythm without an OL, rb or receiving team. That was last year.

Being a really good qb is at least part about getting into a rhythm. last year in particular, one can easily argue that it wasn't Eli's fault that he never did get into one.

There is no widespread desire to tear eli down. You are just sensitive. In addition to willing to make claims up

thought I could have for heaping shit on eli is if we felt the Giants should have 5 or 6 titles by now and ELI was the reasons we didn't accomplish that.

Since nobody in their right mind could actually believe that, then I really don't get the effort to discredit him so often.

It isn't like he's fucked this team over, but reading the posts on BBI sometimes, I really have a hard time believing he didn't

In comment 11876470 Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy said:

Quote:

In comment 11876449 Big Blue '56 said: Quote: Quote: ....It's really that simple. Eli had crap around him but Why can't you have it both ways? If the OL plays poorly, that automatically gets the QB off the hook for playing poorly? The OL was pathetic last year and I'm not saying otherwise. Our interior OL play in particular was just terrible and made it tough for Eli to step into a throw with the pocket collapsing from the inside. But that doesn't completely excuse Eli's performance. Even when he had time last year, Eli was throwing the ball inaccurately and making dumb throws.

You should take a close look at last years roster
Peyton Brees Rodgers Brady joe Montana no one could win with that group of players and the offense system that was run. As Mara said the offense was broken.

I agree. I think Eli is going to be one of those much maligned athletes who ends up being appreciated by far more people once he's retired.

Really. So I'm just making it up that people have tried to tear Eli down? That people have put arguments on BBI that players like Josh Freeman are better QB's?

That people were calling for Nassib to start before the end of the preseason, when two weeks prior, they were calling for Nassib to be cut?

I'm making up stuff I could easily find in the archives?

Alrighty then.

In comment 11876439 fkap said:

Quote:

football is a game of inches in a lot of ways. an inch or two one way or another is often the difference between a great throw and an interception. And then are dumb throws. I don't care if that throw worked before. Gambling of that sort, in the endzone, into a crowd, is a dumb throw every time (only exception would be if it's guaranteed to be the last play of the game, and you positively lose if you don't throw it). I basically agree, but thats the way he plays the game. You get the bad with the good with him. Every QB has them, but for some reason Eli is given no slack by many fans, the press, or the so-called experts.

and I feel like some of that blame goes to Gilbride. I love how McAdoo is throwing shot passes on 1st downs to help get Eli going and get this team in better 2nd down situations.

I'm not completely blaming Eli for last year. He's down on the list for why the Offense sucked. #1 would be OL. #2 would be the terrible RB situation. #3 would be the lack of receiving talent outside of Cruz. #4 would be Gilbride's Offensive scheme. #5 would be Eli playing poorly.

Have you ever seen a QB lead the #1 offense in the league and deserve 0% of the credit? Have you ever seen a QB lead the worst offense in the league and deserve 0% of the blame?

Sure, QBs get too much of the credit and too much of the blame. But they're also the most important players on the team and have an enormous impact on the team's performance. And just like I give Eli a ton of credit for being a historically clutch 2x Super Bowl Champion, I also give him some of the blame for last year's disaster of an offense.

But some people here can't even do that, because things are always black and white apparently.

Why are so many of you on your high horse whining about eli appreciation when you same whiners are the first ones to throw any and all giants players and coaches under the bus in a desire to paint eli in a better light? Many of these players and coaches were similarly big parts of sb runs. Its very tough to take it seriously given this. Especially when this is more common, wide spread and often way more biting than sny of these so called exaggeratted eli attacks

some seem like bigger eli fans than giant fans

What a great, great post.

Sums up my feelings exactly.

only with a couple types of the blame eli gets, but they are prevalent here.

Osi - sure it is valid to complain about certain throws or decisions. That's natural.

What I'm talking about are the posters who debate things like trading eli, starting Nassib, or talking about Eli being imminently in decline.

I'm talking about posters who try to rationalize that a guy like Josh Freeman or Mark sanchez is as important of a player as eli. Hell, I'm not sure why on a Giants board, you'd even have a person put forth an argument that compares Sanchez and Eli. was there even an impetus for that comparison?

I have issues with people who instead of holding the 2 SB's as a medal of honor, try to hold it as an albatross and then when eli throws three picks in a loss, they scream, "Well, he won 2 SB's but what the fuck has he done lately"?

Each year, people will talk about opposing QB's and then make the case they are better than Eli? Why? Are people here calling him the best and there is a desire to refute that? Cutler, Romo, Rivers, Newton, Kaepernick, Ryan, Flacco. At some point during a year, those guys will be gushed about and in that praise, people will use it as a platform to bash eli. I just don't get it.

I wish it were a matter of black and white, but it isn't. It is a lot of criticism, that is often directed for no good reason.

I was saying simply that Eli played a ridiculous fourth quarter to win the Super Bowl without his #1 WR because Plaxico Burress, scumbag, "slipped and fell in the shower" the night before.

It was long forgotten because they won the game, but it's incredible how close Plax was to destroying two potential Lombardi trophies instead of just the one the following year.

Luckily in 2007 the QB was good enough to make it happen without him, and leaning on two rookies and David Tyree.

there was a tiny tiny fraction calling for Freeman, let's not pretend like that was some huge movement around here. Nassib went from bust to potential QB of the future in mere weeks, I don't think anybody was ever seriously considering starting Nassib this year. The whole narrative here seems to be that there's a chunk out there that takes fair criticism to be a slight at Eli.

Quote:

fmic MarshallOnMontana : 2:23 pm : link : reply Why are so many of you on your high horse whining about eli appreciation when you same whiners are the first ones to throw any and all giants players and coaches under the bus in a desire to paint eli in a better light?

I challenge you to find a post where I'm throwing anyone under the bus. Man, I can count on one hand the number of times I've ripped a giants player, and that's part of my issue I have here.

Why should I personally go after guys I'm supposedly invested in cheering on? Why would I get personally angry at eli after he was part of the Glory Days of this franchise?

The next time you see me come up with a catchy, idiotic nickname like Killdrive will be my first. I just don't see the point of it.

I get disappointed when the team loses, but I'll be damned if I'm going to bash people giving their all, just because they've failed to entertain me properly.

I'm talking about when Freeman was with Tampa.

Id say the defense holding the best offense in history to 14 points was pretty huge. And trying to diminish plax role is silly. Winning a sb is about more than just sb sunday, his role on that team was massive, without him we dont even sniff the playoffs let alone win a sb.

In comment 11876519 MarshallOnMontana said:

Quote:

Why are so many of you on your high horse whining about eli appreciation when you same whiners are the first ones to throw any and all giants players and coaches under the bus in a desire to paint eli in a better light? Many of these players and coaches were similarly big parts of sb runs.

This is what annoys me. Giants receivers who play well? All because Eli is awesome and made those schmoes into great receivers. Giants receivers who play poorly? Assholes who are killing Eli. Pick one or the other, for crissakes.

Steve Smith was a great possession receiver. Not much YAC ability, but the man ran exact routes, got open and caught the ball. He was a second round pick for a reason, but to hear many talk about him here, he was a complete nobody without Eli fucking Manning. It's silly.

In comment 11876562 MarshallOnMontana said:

Quote:

Id say the defense holding the best offense in history to 14 points was pretty huge. And trying to diminish plax role is silly. Winning a sb is about more than just sb sunday, his role on that team was massive, without him we dont even sniff the playoffs let alone win a sb.

Completely agree. I'm not diminishing his role in the other games that season one bit. He was great and a major part in getting there. And the defense was great too.

But once we got there Plax almost destroyed it. And while the defense was phenomenal, they left the field late in the fourth quarter trailing. When the game had to be won, Eli won it. To me that is worth all the 5,000 yard passing seasons and 100+ QB ratings in the world.

Isnt it long past time to stop booing the best skill player in franchise history because of tame comments made almost ten years ago about the qb we supposedly all hate and dont appreciate anyway?

Even eli has moved on.

Eli isn't Jesus Christ turning water into wine. The guys who have performed in significant roles for us (Burress, Nicks, S. Smith, Manningham, and Cruz) had some talent to begin with. People act like Eli turned Tyree level talent into pro bowlers. There's a middle ground here. The QB's and WR's should both share the credit, and blame.

It's more likely that Tyree made Eli to a certain extent, since the helmet catch greatly increased the team's chances of winning XLII

in decline, which was a pretty prevelant topic here all offseason, and look what it turns into.

Fatman's posts coming true right before our eyes.

In comment 11876586 Greg from LI said:

Quote:

It's more likely that Tyree made Eli to a certain extent, since the helmet catch greatly increased the team's chances of winning XLII

This is bullshit, because even if Tyree makes a normal catch on the play Eli's escape goes down as one of the greatest plays in the history of the Super Bowl and thus the NFL.

a playoff record of 13-11 with 30 INTs and a QB rating of 87.3. A tick below average is season ending INTs in 2003,2008 and 2010.

I hate those Eli-bashing posters too. I hated coming on this site during pre-season and reading about how much Eli sucked and how much better Nassib was. I think people on that extreme "Eli's done" side were ridiculously annoying and I absolutely enjoy seeing them eat shit. So I completely agree with you there.

But I also think we have some people here who are the opposite and have an "It's never Eli's fault" mindset because of all the special moments he has delivered us in the past. And those people annoy me too because they seem to shield Eli from any criticism.

It's almost like a political discussion here sometimes with the Pro-Eli side squaring off with the Anti-Eli side. The anti-Eli side will just rip into Eli and then the pro-Eli side will feel the need to balance out that excessive Eli negativity with their excessive Eli positivity. It just becomes a chore to read those threads where the two sides go at it.

In comment 11876514 Osi Osi Osi OyOyOy said:

Quote:

and I feel like some of that blame goes to Gilbride. I love how McAdoo is throwing shot passes on 1st downs to help get Eli going and get this team in better 2nd down situations. I'm not completely blaming Eli for last year. He's down on the list for why the Offense sucked. #1 would be OL. #2 would be the terrible RB situation. #3 would be the lack of receiving talent outside of Cruz. #4 would be Gilbride's Offensive scheme. #5 would be Eli playing poorly. Have you ever seen a QB lead the #1 offense in the league and deserve 0% of the credit? Have you ever seen a QB lead the worst offense in the league and deserve 0% of the blame? Sure, QBs get too much of the credit and too much of the blame. But they're also the most important players on the team and have an enormous impact on the team's performance. And just like I give Eli a ton of credit for being a historically clutch 2x Super Bowl Champion, I also give him some of the blame for last year's disaster of an offense. But some people here can't even do that, because things are always black and white apparently.

Osi, Eli does not and cannot escape criticism for last year, but as you pointed out, it is low on the list of blame..Am I representing you accurately?

And I dont know of more than a couple qbs with more than 13 playoff wins. He also lost one playoff game literally solely because the nfl didnt have instant replay, and lost a sb where he badly outplayed elway

You cant lose in the playoffs when you dont go there, and its possible that could happen for a 5th time in 6 years here, with the lone exception being the first 9 win nfc east winner since the merger

putting aside the fact that comparing w/l records in the playoffs is a shaky marker in itself, it helps that eli manning has never taken the field for a playoff game that 24 points wouldnt have won, in 11 tries

The fact that we are having any discussion comparjng these two shows just how loony some eli backers are

As much as I realize that his cast stunk last year, the QB can't get a pass when he leads arguably the worst offense last year.

I never felt like he was THE problem, but I did think his 2013 performance warranted concern about his longterm future with the team. I felt like he needed to have a stronger 2014 in a new offense for me to feel more confident in him.

This thread has turned into nothing more than the usual people with their usual bullshit (short of Osi Osi and a few others).

This is why I don't enjoy discussing Eli here or anywhere with Giants fans. Whether you love or hate him, you will stick to your guns on him till the very end.

In comment 11876590 Go Terps said:

Quote:

In comment 11876586 Greg from LI said: Quote: It's more likely that Tyree made Eli to a certain extent, since the helmet catch greatly increased the team's chances of winning XLII This is bullshit, because even if Tyree makes a normal catch on the play Eli's escape goes down as one of the greatest plays in the history of the Super Bowl and thus the NFL.

My point was that, if Tyree doesn't come down with the ball, their chances of winning the game drop dramatically.

So it ironic to chat Giants football and see more of the same here.

Whats the problem? That he's not good for fantasy?

Yes he's erratic at times.
Yes he takes risks.
Yes he makes more bad throws than an "elite" QB should make
Yes he has streaks where the TOs flow

BUT

Who has had more 4th qtr comebacks in the last decade?
Does Eli elevate the level of play of guys around him? This is an easy yes.. or name an offensive player who left the Giants and flourished... I cant (some honest help here)

Yes.. the pro-Eli crowd can always harp on the two superbowl MVPs and titles... but the best part of those for me?
He outplayed
Garcia (8-5 64% 13 TDs 4 INTs)
Romo (13-3, 65% 36 TDs 19 INTs)
Farve (13-3, 67% 26 TDs 15 INTs)
Tom Brady (mr perfect)

hands down in head to head play. Eli did not steer the ship or manage the game. He went out and outplayed some of the best QBs at the time.

If that wasnt enough the 2nd time he outplayed Matt Ryan, Aaron Rogers, Alex Smith and once again Tom Brady.

You can say his erratic play keeps him a real notch below the top 4-5 guys in the league who would probably be Rogers, Peyton, Brady and Brees... but when its counted the most and Eli has gone on the road he has straight up outplayed the star QB on the other side of the field. I would even venture to say those guys push him to elevate his game.

If you want him replaced follow the Jets. Or hell just think back to Dave Brown, Dany Kanell, Kent Graham, Kerry Collins, Kurt Warner... seriously wake up.

What will be really interesting is when Eli wins his 3rd title.

above average when playing against the better teams.Some would argue that he was solely responsible for losing to the Giants in 2008 by forcing a pass that cost them the game. Personally, I think Favre was more than a tick above average, career-wise, but his playoff record certainly fits the definition.

In comment 11876638 bob in tx said:

Quote:

above average when playing against the better teams.Some would argue that he was solely responsible for losing to the Giants in 2008 by forcing a pass that cost them the game. Personally, I think Favre was more than a tick above average, career-wise, but his playoff record certainly fits the definition.

Peyton would appear to fit into that category as well, playoff-wise

Good to see some reasonable well thought out opinions here.

In comment 11876628 Greg from LI said:

Quote:

In comment 11876590 Go Terps said: Quote: In comment 11876586 Greg from LI said: Quote: It's more likely that Tyree made Eli to a certain extent, since the helmet catch greatly increased the team's chances of winning XLII This is bullshit, because even if Tyree makes a normal catch on the play Eli's escape goes down as one of the greatest plays in the history of the Super Bowl and thus the NFL. My point was that, if Tyree doesn't come down with the ball, their chances of winning the game drop dramatically.

But he did, and to me that's the crux of the argument on Eli. Any number of things could have happened in particular spots to take the sheen off him. But they didn't. Since he has been the QB the Giants have won two titles, a number equaled only by Pittsburgh. I do not know why there are some Giants fans that either choose to shrink that achievement or say the grass is greener elsewhere.

I don't think it is.

I think you have a woeful grasp of average in the playoffs then. Not a lot of guys walking around with 13 playoff wins. Not a lot of guys at 18-4

If you go to the playoffs perennially, youre going to lose a lot of playoff games. One each year in fact when you dont win the sb.

He's had some incredibly highs and some horrific lows. Over the course of his career I'd see he's a good quarterback who was capable of greatness at times, but rarely sustained that level of play.

Quote:

I do not know why there are some Giants fans that either choose to shrink that achievement or say the grass is greener elsewhere.

This is exactly the crux of my argument.

Why there was ever a comparison of Sanchez vs. eli here or QBX vs. eli here where the goal is to knock Eli down a notch is puzzling to me. Jets fans still hold onto the idea that Joe Namath is an all-time great and he won only one title - their only one. Were people shitting on Joe back in the day?

I enjoy watching the giants. not sure what would have to happen to prod me to trying to argue that a giants player wasn't as good as his titles would indicate. Frankly, I wouldn't have the motivation to argue that, and I pretty much will argue anything.

In comment 11876642 Big Blue '56 said:

Quote:

In comment 11876638 bob in tx said: Quote: above average when playing against the better teams.Some would argue that he was solely responsible for losing to the Giants in 2008 by forcing a pass that cost them the game. Personally, I think Favre was more than a tick above average, career-wise, but his playoff record certainly fits the definition. Peyton would appear to fit into that category as well, playoff-wise

Sure. The point is that citing stats can really be meaningless. People like to lessen Eli's performances in big games and doing so is equally as foolish. Calling Eli "a tick above average" and then trying to turn the comment into a compliment may rank as the single most ignorant statement I've ever read on BBI. ( see how easily blunt, baseless statements can appear).

But man, 336 INTs in a career, that's gotta be close to a tick below medicore.

Relative to his unmatched regular season standard, and the fact that all but 2 or 3 of his losses came as a favorite presents a horrid narrative

relative to all quarterbacks though, hes not a bad playoff performer

In comment 11876408 MarshallOnMontana said:

Quote:

I appreciate his career. That doesnt mean I find him above criticism, believe his job security is above question regardless of how this year goes, or act like his two sb make him better than any qbs with less by default this site sometimes is crazy defensive about this player. Dude is coming off an atrocious last year and a half, strings 2 solid games together, and now we are calling out anyone who had the nerve to knock his play, painting them as fringe loons. Please

The site is crazy defensive of him because he's ours, and takes a beating both from our own fans, other team's fans, and the media.

What I find weird, is that people go to great lengths to prop up OTHER guys, while dismissing their faults... The RG3's and Lucks of the world, who while they may be great, don't boast nearly the resume that our guys does, but those guys are fawned all over, while our guy is always in decline.

...just be who he is?

I don't get why these arguments always have to be one guy saying he can do no wrong vs. another guy who thinks he's basically a JAG who got lucky a few times in big games.

He performed like an elite QB in 2011 from start to finish. Most of his other regular seasons were mixed bags. The one I felt was most misleading was 2010 where I actually thought Eli was much better than his stat line showed INT-wise. 2013 was just a flat out mess but in 2010 there were actually a good amount of perfectly thrown balls that just bounced right off a WR's hands into those of a DB. He led the league in INT's that year but probably shouldn't have.

That said, he's thrown far too many INT's in his career which I think anyone would agree with.

You have a bunch of regular seasons from him that don't really pop out. He doesn't have those 5,000+, 40 TD years.. but that's alright. He came through in some huge spots on the biggest stages and proved numerous times that although he wasn't always the greatest QB, he could elevate his play and get there when he needed to most.

He's an enigmatic QB and one who will be remembered as such. It's a guy who has had points where he's looked as good as anyone who has played the positions and games where you wondered if the backup QB could legitimately be a better option.

There's no need to prop him up into something more than he is/was and there's especially no need to tear him down and discredit the great things he did do. Just let Eli be who Eli is.

Favre's fifth in playoff wins for a QB - I think this data only includes the SB era.

Is no one will hand him the keys long enough. His int rate is higher than favre, his td to int ratio is worse. He has led the league in ints since the start of every season since 04, you can literally make the cutoff whenever you want. And eli has played his entire career in a post 2004 passing world, a clear marker for an era change in passing numbers. Favre only played his 35 and older seasons in that era. Favre would have over 600 tds if he played his whole career in a post 04 world

In comment 11876683 arcarsenal said:

Quote:

...just be who he is? I don't get why these arguments always have to be one guy saying he can do no wrong vs. another guy who thinks he's basically a JAG who got lucky a few times in big games. He performed like an elite QB in 2011 from start to finish. Most of his other regular seasons were mixed bags. The one I felt was most misleading was 2010 where I actually thought Eli was much better than his stat line showed INT-wise. 2013 was just a flat out mess but in 2010 there were actually a good amount of perfectly thrown balls that just bounced right off a WR's hands into those of a DB. He led the league in INT's that year but probably shouldn't have. That said, he's thrown far too many INT's in his career which I think anyone would agree with. You have a bunch of regular seasons from him that don't really pop out. He doesn't have those 5,000+, 40 TD years.. but that's alright. He came through in some huge spots on the biggest stages and proved numerous times that although he wasn't always the greatest QB, he could elevate his play and get there when he needed to most. He's an enigmatic QB and one who will be remembered as such. It's a guy who has had points where he's looked as good as anyone who has played the positions and games where you wondered if the backup QB could legitimately be a better option. There's no need to prop him up into something more than he is/was and there's especially no need to tear him down and discredit the great things he did do. Just let Eli be who Eli is.

+ ∞

There were people here saying it would be a shock if he didn't turn out to be better than Eli. Sam Bradford.

of Eli's contemporaries has a clearly better career resume?

By resume I mean accomplishments, plays made, games won history set.