If nothing else, can we put the Eli is physically in decline

In comment 11877006 MarshallOnMontana said:

Quote:

And they struck you as a qb centric offense, than youre the one who cant be helped. Eli was fine that year. The fact that you try to stretch that into a great year shows how much we need to stretch to find great years. Roethlisberger has that same season, no one here is going gaga. Especially if he flamed out as badly as eli did to end the year.

Troy Aikman had a bunch of seasons similar to Eli's 2008, and he is in the HOF and regarded as one of the clutchest QBs ever. In fact Aikman had something like 1 year of over 20 TDs and 2 years of over 3,000 yards.

have clearly positively impacted his throwing mechanics and velocity, and his confidence.

He demanded the ball in the week leading up to the game, then had a series of bad drops, one of which set off a sequence that triggered a 10 point swing and shut the lights off.

He deserved the criticism he got last week, how is that "throwing him under the bus to protect Eli" (who by the way, had a fine game even without the Cruz drops). And I've always been, and continue to be, a huge Cruz fan.

Take all the QBs in the NFL and make them eligible for the 2004 draft. Knowing how their careers have panned out, what QBs do you take in front of Eli?


Peyton, Brady, Rodgers, then.....

I already said I wouldnt take Brees in NY. Ben either. Luck is a possibility, but his career is still really young. Rivers, Romo, Newton, Cutler, Ryan arent even in the conversation.

In comment 11876823 dep026 said:

Quote:

What I am personally seeing right now is a career that parallels my other favorite current athlete in another sport: Ryan Howard. Howard and Eli have actually had pretty similar careers and shortcomings. Ryan Howard is looked upon as one of the most overrated players in the 21st century because he doesnt hit for average, strikes out a lot, is not a good defender, and cant run. Eli Manning is looked upon as one of the most overrated players in the 21st century because he throws too many INTs, cant run, is not the most accurate, and doesnt make enough expressions. And you know what? I could give two shits about either player. Both players have been INTEGRAL parts of championship teams that I got to see and root for. Both of them work hard, rarely miss time (until Howard ruptured his achilles), and performed at the highest level when it mattered the most. Isnt that what stars are suppose to do? Play their best when it matters the most? Sure they have flaws. Sure they are both ending their careers probably in the next few years. But what they have produced can and should not be questioned, yet somehow they are always in the middle of conversation in regards of their teams failures. Eli Manning is a 2x SB champion and MVP. He has played in one of the toughest stadiums/cities for his entire career and never missed a game. He has played with some very talented teammates who have helped him to accomplish some of his individual accomplishments (Tiki, Shockey, Burress, Smith, Cruz, Bradshaw, Jacobs, Nicks, many OL, etc...) He is a flawed played. He does not throw the perfect spiral, or the deepest ball, or the fastest ball, or even the msot accurate ball. But for 9 out of the 10 years he has been in the league, he has put us in the position to have a chance to make the playoffs, putting us there 5 times. He has won us games, he has lost us games. But regardless of the outcome, he has always had his teammates/coaches backs, never complains, and his work ethic is unquestioned. We all know he isnt Peyton or Brady or even Rodgers. But Ive said a million times, I would take him over Brees in NY. Brees has had the luxury of playing in two of the friendliest atmospheres a QB can have. He played with probably the best offensive mind in the 21st century as well. And I think he has played what, 3 games?, in under 40 degree weather. Guys like Big Ben and Rivers are both very good QB. But do you think Ben would be the ideal fit in NY? Maybe, could be. But that isnt a given. Philip Rivers plays in a stadium that can barely sell out in 80 degree weather conditions. But people look at him as being better because he is "fiery" and plays with "passion" or whatever the hell any of that means. He had one decent playoff run in 2007, but has come up short in many games despite playing in the worst division in the NFl up until last year. Even bringing guys like Romo, Ryan, Newton, Cutler, etc into any conversation is just a waste of time and energy. In the world of fantasy football, these guys look like gods, but when push comes to shove, they usually get shoved. Your telling me Eli has played with as talented players that Romo has? Eli never played with HOF talent like Owens, Witten, and possibly Bryant. You think Eli would like to play half his games in a dome like Ryan? Now I am not singling out posters because everyone is entitled to their opinion and views. But the fact of the matter that we are still pointing out Eli's flaws in 2014 is just sad. I dont care if Peyton or Brady or Favre are or were better players. All I care that is when its all said and done, Eli has given us at least 2 SBs and a lifetime full of memories. And maybe some other QBs could have won more than 2 SBs with our teams. But I know there are many, many more who would have won less.

You knocked it out of the park Dep..

If you want to compare pre 2004 numbers to today, have at it. Theyre playing a different sport now. Aikman was 3rd in the nfl the season he threw 23 touchdowns. And no one including aikman himself would say anything besides ring count Iis the driving force behind aikmans candidacy. Might get eli in at some point too. Doesnt mean he has a career littered with hof caliber seasons, because he doesnt.

...to trying to prove to Giant fans that Eli Manning isn't as good as they think he is or whatever.

It's just... strange.

Who has been down on him and thinks we have basically the worst skill players in the nfl

and cruz isnt beyond criticism. Nor is eli

In comment 11877058 MarshallOnMontana said:

Quote:

If you want to compare pre 2004 numbers to today, have at it. Theyre playing a different sport now. Aikman was 3rd in the nfl the season he threw 23 touchdowns. And no one including aikman himself would say anything besides ring count Iis the driving force behind aikmans candidacy. Might get eli in at some point too. Doesnt mean he has a career littered with hof caliber seasons, because he doesnt.

In 1994, things looked like it started to change in the NFL where multiple guys started to reach 4,000 yards or at least 3,500 yards. Aikman never had to be that player because he had such talent every on offense. But it could be argued he became more of a game manager than a game changer. He was still an amazing QB who made a lot of big time throws. But Eli's 2008 season was probably very similar to what Aikman did for at least the last half of his career.

Quote:

I still can't understand devoting so much time.. arcarsenal : 6:33 pm : link : reply ...to trying to prove to Giant fans that Eli Manning isn't as good as they think he is or whatever. It's just... strange.

Bingo. Not just trying to prove to Giant fans that Eli is mediocre, but to also drag a bunch of comparisons into play with players like Alex Smith or Mark Sanchez and think that a valid point is being made.

Like I said above, taking so much time to indicate Eli is mediocre just seems about as fucking strange as one can get.

In comment 11877051 dep026 said:

Quote:

Take all the QBs in the NFL and make them eligible for the 2004 draft. Knowing how their careers have panned out, what QBs do you take in front of Eli? Peyton, Brady, Rodgers, then..... I already said I wouldnt take Brees in NY. Ben either. Luck is a possibility, but his career is still really young. Rivers, Romo, Newton, Cutler, Ryan arent even in the conversation.

In your hypothetical scenario I still take Eli first.

Over the past year and a half when there was nothing but opportunities to bash him. Mainly because its a losing battle with his army of fanboys.

But the notion on this thread that I saw from a few posters acting like questioning the future of eli is beyond the realm of sanity just because of the past two weeks is too much. Then we get into the stupidity of comparing him to 3x mvps, thats how we get here

Im a bigger giant fan than eli fan. For a lot of you im not sure

Some Giant fans hold their loyalty to the guy in very high regard and maybe it clouds their perceptions but that's how a lot of fans are. You see a guy hoist the Lombardi for you not once, but twice and both in pretty incredible fashion and it's hard to come down hard on him when he's not playing so well. To me, it's pretty understandable. An athlete brings you more joy in the sporting world than any other (for a lot of fans here) you naturally, you're going to gravitate toward defending him as much as humanly possible.

The people who never see any fault in him are obviously not always realistic but it's no worse than people who wanted Nassib in there before we even took a snap this year.. and those existed too. And will exist again the next time he throws a pick.

Fan is short for fanatic. It's always going to involve exaggeration in one direction or another. Especially when there are this many people expressing their opinions.

If I'm going to spend time "correcting" one group of extremists, I'd probably rather go for the guys who think this QB is a worthless sack of shit who has never accomplished anything and let his biggest fans just enjoy him because we root for the same team and he's our QB... but that's me.

In comment 11877086 arcarsenal said:

Quote:

Some Giant fans hold their loyalty to the guy in very high regard and maybe it clouds their perceptions but that's how a lot of fans are. You see a guy hoist the Lombardi for you not once, but twice and both in pretty incredible fashion and it's hard to come down hard on him when he's not playing so well. To me, it's pretty understandable. An athlete brings you more joy in the sporting world than any other (for a lot of fans here) you naturally, you're going to gravitate toward defending him as much as humanly possible. The people who never see any fault in him are obviously not always realistic but it's no worse than people who wanted Nassib in there before we even took a snap this year.. and those existed too. And will exist again the next time he throws a pick. Fan is short for fanatic. It's always going to involve exaggeration in one direction or another. Especially when there are this many people expressing their opinions. If I'm going to spend time "correcting" one group of extremists, I'd probably rather go for the guys who think this QB is a worthless sack of shit who has never accomplished anything and let his biggest fans just enjoy him because we root for the same team and he's our QB... but that's me.

+1000 You and FMIC are doing yomens work on this thread.

I was ridiculously quiet about eli all last year during his horrible season. The notion that im on some anti eli mission is absurd.

This is so pointless. Cant have any conversation about this player without guys getting their panties riled up en masse. Cant ever bring stats into the conversation because they have a well known eli manning bias. Plus all of elis fanboys are a bunch of god damn football geniuses who have evolved beyond ever having any use for them. We just know eli is awesome because he won 2 sbs, we will bash other giants incessantly to hype him, and asserting that eli has largely been merely a tick above average for the bulk of his career save two well timed months, is somehow cause for me having an agenda.

In comment 11876408 MarshallOnMontana said:

Quote:

... this site sometimes is crazy defensive about this player. Dude is coming off an atrocious last year and a half, strings 2 solid games together, and now we are calling out anyone who had the nerve to knock his play, painting them as fringe loons. Please

See, that's the problem though. Nobody with any football experience can honestly defend a statement that Manning is coming off an ATROCIOUS year and a half. The offensive line was probably the worst offensive line any NFL team has put on the field in the last 50 years - certainly the worst I've ever seen in my lifetime.

So, there is no way - absolutely no way - for you or anyone else to know how any other relatively immobile QB would have played had they played for the Giants last year. Not Brady. Not Peyton. Heck, not even Drew Brees or Rodgers, but of whom are much more mobile.

The OL was so bad that it wasn't possible to measure or evaluate the play of any other offensive position. No running game. No passing game. Nothing but pressures and sacks. I generally like your posts, but to put a label like "atrocious" to describe Manning sounds an awful like an agenda or lack of knowledge, or both.

statistics...

In comment 11877060 arcarsenal said:

Quote:

...to trying to prove to Giant fans that Eli Manning isn't as good as they think he is or whatever. It's just... strange.

Someone brought up Favre then someone else was critical of Favre.

By how this usually goes, there's going to be a Vinny Testeverde comparison coming soon and the thread won't die for a week.

You've had your share of spats just like this. It's always the same type of argument. I guess I just don't know why you're so determined to make people "see the light" and think less about a guy they are big fans of.

There are Giant fans who love Eli Manning and will be eternally grateful for what what he gave them. You don't have to.. that's fine. I just don't see the point in going all stat crazy to prove his mediocrity and make sure everyone holds your same opinion of him, which you seem to believe is more correct than theirs

coherent because they have a woeful grasp of statistics, and how to mitigate the natural problems inherent of simply looking at the means.

It's correlation vs. causation all wrapped up in a remarkably dull-witted exterior.

Until I realized he's the same guy that rips Nicks and Cruz apart at any given moment. FMIC has been consistent about pretty much not criticizing any Giant, which I think is absurd in its own right, but at least he's consistent and doesn't hold Eli above any other Giant.

You should only be offended by the posts on this thread if you had some crazy idea that Eli is/was an "elite" QB. 2011 I'd give him the elite tag, that's about it. Which is more than fine. He gave us 2 SB wins, he doesn't have to be a first ballot HOFer for me to appreciate the fact that he was a driving force behind them.

In comment 11877106 AnotherGiantsFan said:

Quote:

Until I realized he's the same guy that rips Nicks and Cruz apart at any given moment. FMIC has been consistent about pretty much not criticizing any Giant, which I think is absurd in its own right, but at least he's consistent and doesn't hold Eli above any other Giant. You should only be offended by the posts on this thread if you had some crazy idea that Eli is/was an "elite" QB. 2011 I'd give him the elite tag, that's about it. Which is more than fine. He gave us 2 SB wins, he doesn't have to be a first ballot HOFer for me to appreciate the fact that he was a driving force behind them.

I gave props to Cruz as soon as I got home from the game yesterday. I have no problem praising them when they play well. But I think I was spot on about Nicks last year. And will have no problem eating my words if Cruz played like he did yesterday.

Is so determined to express Eli's mediocrity but was praising Russell Wilson on the gamethread last night. Look up mediocrity in the dictionary and you'll see RW cheesing it in his senior HS photo.

Guy has the most talented team gifted to him where his job requirement is "Don't do anything to lose the game and we won't need you to do anything to win us the game.".

He refuses to acknowledge how Favre threw awful passes to blow playoff runs.

In comment 11877086 arcarsenal said:

Quote:

Some Giant fans hold their loyalty to the guy in very high regard and maybe it clouds their perceptions but that's how a lot of fans are. You see a guy hoist the Lombardi for you not once, but twice and both in pretty incredible fashion and it's hard to come down hard on him when he's not playing so well. To me, it's pretty understandable. An athlete brings you more joy in the sporting world than any other (for a lot of fans here) you naturally, you're going to gravitate toward defending him as much as humanly possible. The people who never see any fault in him are obviously not always realistic but it's no worse than people who wanted Nassib in there before we even took a snap this year.. and those existed too. And will exist again the next time he throws a pick. Fan is short for fanatic. It's always going to involve exaggeration in one direction or another. Especially when there are this many people expressing their opinions. If I'm going to spend time "correcting" one group of extremists, I'd probably rather go for the guys who think this QB is a worthless sack of shit who has never accomplished anything and let his biggest fans just enjoy him because we root for the same team and he's our QB... but that's me.

This is EXACTLY how I feel. I'm a Giant fan first and foremost, I was a diehard Giant fan during the Kerry Collins era preceding Eli and I will be a diehard Giant fan whoever takes over for Eli under center, BUT..

For my history as a sports fan, Eli is the first player I followed for the duration of his career closely. I still remember my freshman year of college when Coughlin announced him the starter after the Arizona game, and all of the ups and downs throughout the first few years of his career. I've heard he was a bust, I've heard we should have drafted Big Ben, I've heard we should have drafted Rivers, and then we won it all in 07, and AGAIN in 11. Amazing.

I grew up with Patrick Ewing, but was too young to remember his early years. The Mets traded for Piazza so it just isn't the same. I've experienced all the ups and downs with Eli and has been an integral part of TWO SB Titles, I'm sorry but that is a huge deal and we are all Giant fans.

Am I a homer? Probably, but fuck it, I'm a fan.

that if you are in a game for all the marbles, you put him in Starr's, Staubach's, Unitas, Montana and Brady's class..No one is in Eli's class when you need that clutch performance in a winner take all game..

That's how I've always judged winners in my 58 seasons of bleeding Giants football..Jimmy Brown was the best RB that ever lived. There are many who have statistically passed him. None have passed his greatness..I judge players and teams differently than many others..We each have our individual takes..

Why did the meme that Eli Manning had a bad second half of 2012 become accepted as fact on BBI?

By my count, he had three bad games, one so-so game and four good games. I think some guys have been fudging facts to fit their argument and it just caught on without being questioned as much as it should have been

Code:

2012 REGULAR SEASON GAME LOG PASSING RUSHING DATE OPP RESULT CMP ATT YDS CMP% AVG LNG TD INT QBR RAT ATT YDS AVG LNG TD Wed 9/5 vs DAL - L 17-24 21 32 213 65.6 6.66 39 1 0 58.1 94.9 0 0 0.0 0 0 Sun 9/16 vs TB - W 41-34 31 51 510 60.8 10.00 80 3 3 59.4 89.5 3 -2 -0.7 0 0 Thu 9/20 @ CAR - W 36-7 27 35 288 77.1 8.23 29 1 0 92.7 110.2 2 5 2.5 4 0 Sun 9/30 @ PHI - L 17-19 24 42 309 57.1 7.36 41 2 1 71.4 86.3 0 0 0.0 0 0 Sun 10/7 vs CLE - W 41-27 25 37 259 67.6 7.00 36 3 1 95.5 103.3 2 -1 -0.5 0 0 Sun 10/14 @ SF - W 26-3 15 28 193 53.6 6.89 39 1 0 94.4 87.4 3 -2 -0.7 1 0 Sun 10/21 vs WSH - W 27-23 26 40 337 65.0 8.43 77 1 2 75.7 78.9 2 4 2.0 5 0 Sun 10/28 @ DAL - W 29-24 15 29 192 51.7 6.62 56 0 1 49.4 58.4 1 3 3.0 3 0 Sun 11/4 vs PIT - L 20-24 10 24 125 41.7 5.21 33 0 1 16.1 41.1 0 0 0.0 0 0 Sun 11/11 @ CIN - L 13-31 29 46 215 63.0 4.67 16 0 2 19.9 56.0 1 1 1.0 1 0 Sun 11/25 vs GB - W 38-10 16 30 249 53.3 8.30 59 3 0 88.7 114.4 2 12 6.0 13 0 Mon 12/3 @ WSH - L 16-17 20 33 280 60.6 8.49 49 1 0 79.4 98.0 1 5 5.0 5 0 Sun 12/9 vs NO - W 52-27 22 35 259 62.9 7.40 35 4 2 52.7 99.6 2 -3 -1.5 -1 0 Sun 12/16 @ ATL - L 0-34 13 25 161 52.0 6.44 37 0 2 4.7 38.9 0 0 0.0 0 0 Sun 12/23 @ BAL - L 14-33 14 28 150 50.0 5.36 43 1 0 37.5 78.0 1 8 8.0 8 0 Sun 12/30 vs PHI - W 42-7 13 21 208 61.9 9.91 41 5 0 99.6 134.5 0 0 0.0 0 0 REGULAR SEASON STATS 321 536 3,948 59.9 7.37 80 26 15 68.9 87.2 20 30 1.5 13 0 2nd half of the season stats 137 242 1647 445.4 55.78 313 14 7 49.8 82.6

Link - ( New Window )

But I wouldn't trust many of them in a SB game. No game is too big for Eli, and he's proved that. He's battle tested. But there's no doubt that he's a streaky QB.

I really thought after that SB run Eli hit his prime and was going to have a few years of truly elite QB play. That hasn't really happened. We can blame his surroundings (OL, WR) all we want, but elite QBs find a way to adapt and carry. Andrew Luck, who I already consider an elite top 5 QB, is not on a good football team but still manages to keep his team in just about every game and bring them to the playoffs.

Hell, Eli found a way to adapt in his 2011 run and put the team on his back until the rest of the team was finally able to put it together. Which is why that is the year I have said is his lone "elite" year. It's not something you want your QB having to go through, but the elite ones do find a way. Maybe that's just where we differ on how to interpret the word elite.

Disclaimer : This post has nothing to do with Eli being done. Not being elite and being a good QB are two entirely separate arguments. I think Eli can still be the latter for a couple of years.

the samples are too small for most players.

If I go back through the years, I've probably only ever said bad things about a few players.

Ones that I can think of are Mike Croel, Mike Horan, Dan Reeves and Ray Handley. I didn't even really get on dave Brown because the guy played his heart out here.

Part of that was growing up in the 70's where you pulled for players who had little talent, but tried hard. you could picture yourself having a beer next to Joe Pisarcik, and you probably thought you could play QB the next day, just like him.

But it is more of a philosophical issue. Why should I invest so much time following a team if I'm going to rip guys? I assume that most players are giving effort and not intentionally trying to screw the team, so outside of that, I'm really not going to whine about them not entertaining me enough. I do have a certain disdain for guys who are detrimental to the team - like Will Hill or Plaxico.

You might find that hard to understand, but I find it equally hard to understand how people can root for the team and take what seems like a fair amount of glee in bashing the very players they root for.

In the same vein of thinking, I really don't understand spending so much time in trying to minimize the accomplishments of guys like eli, especially with absurd comparisons to Alex Smith or Mark Sanchez.

I mean, that isn't out of the box thinking - it is simply a waste of time.

In comment 11877342 FatMan in Charlotte said:

Quote:

If I go back through the years, I've probably only ever said bad things about a few players. Ones that I can think of are Mike Croel, Mike Horan, Dan Reeves and Ray Handley. I didn't even really get on dave Brown because the guy played his heart out here. Part of that was growing up in the 70's where you pulled for players who had little talent, but tried hard. you could picture yourself having a beer next to Joe Pisarcik, and you probably thought you could play QB the next day, just like him. But it is more of a philosophical issue. Why should I invest so much time following a team if I'm going to rip guys? I assume that most players are giving effort and not intentionally trying to screw the team, so outside of that, I'm really not going to whine about them not entertaining me enough. I do have a certain disdain for guys who are detrimental to the team - like Will Hill or Plaxico. You might find that hard to understand, but I find it equally hard to understand how people can root for the team and take what seems like a fair amount of glee in bashing the very players they root for. In the same vein of thinking, I really don't understand spending so much time in trying to minimize the accomplishments of guys like eli, especially with absurd comparisons to Alex Smith or Mark Sanchez. I mean, that isn't out of the box thinking - it is simply a waste of time.

There's a fine line between criticizing and bashing. Some people think they are critiquing while they are bashing, and some people believe any criticism on a player is a form of bashing.

I barely whine about this team or about a player, I was absent from a lot of the threads during last season because I couldn't handle the posters having meltdowns. But I definitely criticize this team. That's partially due to me expecting so much from this franchise. You have a mindset from the 70s. I was born in the 90s and have experienced success more often than failure as a fan. As a Knicks fan, I'm used to failure and pretty much numb to any and all shortcomings. It's all gravy to me at this point.

If I'm going to invest time into a team, I'm going to be realistic at where we are and what we can be. If I wanted to be a blind homer, I wouldn't pay attention to how Johnathan Hankins is performing and would just whip out the pom poms. It's easy to praise and it's easy to bash, but it's not always easy to be critical. I think that's where the best discussions on this site stem from.

You see bashing on this thread, I see criticism. I guess it's up to interpretation.

on this thread. I see a continued pattern from Joe of making an issue of trying to convince people that eli is mediocre.

I actually don't mind when people are critical. I tend to respond to extremes of both sides. when I hear people wanting to start Nassib, a few weeks after wanting to cut Nassib, I respond. I also respond when people say that Eli is a first ballot HoF'er right now. I really don't like exaggeration in either direction.

I don't tend to pick too much at people who are critical and rational, but I do tend to go hard at people who are critical without having either football knowledge or they assume that they are more proficient at the game than the y show through their posts.

I always found this at play with the Gilbride critics. I didn't have much issue with people who questioned some playcalls, but I had a huge issue with people calling him Killdrive or saying "We ALWAYS run on 2nd and 10". And frankly, on BBI you have a lot of morons making that type of shitty, shallow analysis and calling anyone who disagrees a homer. But going back to my previous post, I'm not sure why being a homer is an insult. If I bleed blue, why do I want to cut up the very people I root for until I see red?

For years, I spent time in the training rooms of professional sports, I often went to the combine. And so many times, I heard things from these insiders that completely contradicted what fans of an assortment of teams said. I'd like to be critical, but whenever I am and step back, it just seems like I'm whining about not being entertained enough and I'm doing it without having the right information to base a solid argument on. I can't call the training staff incompetent fucks because I know them and I've seen how well respected they are by their peers. Same goes for the coaches. I can disagree with some strategy, but I'll be damned to know for sure if I'm right or wrong. Meanwhile, so many people here don't give a holy shit if they are right or wrong, they just want to bitch and could give a fuck if it makes sense.

I agree with most of what you're saying, which is why I don't think we're debating about the same thing anymore. There's no doubt a lot of posters bitch and moan on this site, which is why your weekly Game Day call out threads were a raging success.

There's nothing wrong with being a homer, but it does discredit an opinion some when your knee jerk reaction is to be pro-giants. We're all giant fans here, but some of us don't prefer the circle jerking high horse mentality of "I'm a better fan than you because I don't criticize the team" which runs rampant on this site.

I'm not perfect and don't pretend to be. I've said repeatedly throughout the offseason that this OL is going to be brutal to watch. I've formed that opinion from last years performance and not believing that the acquisitions made will suffice.

This past week against the Texans was encouraging for the OL. Now if the Giants somehow consistently get solid OL play, I bet my left nut that there will be a thread calling out anyone who questioned the Giants OL.

These posters love to jump at the opportunity to call out anyone who questions this team even though there are valid reasons to doubt. In the same breath, these same posters who love to post call out threads have no rationale other than "bleeding blue".

It's a two way street.

from the OP. Almost a great post dep - maybe your best ever - until you start noting Eli's lack of a supporting cast at offensive skills positions. You are just so far off on that it's hilarious. Tiki, Shockey, Toomer, Plax, Jacobs, Bradshaw, Smith, Nicks, Cruz, Manningham, Boss... Reese has, if anything, over-invested in offensive skills positions to buffet Eli over his tenure. Where he's failed is on the OL.

One quality Eli's demonstrated at the all-time great level is toughness, both physical and mental. Another is a remarkable ability to rise to the occasion on any single play. For those two qualities alone, he should be fully appreciated by Giants' fans.

18-0 is a Dragon.Like another poster said, there isn't another QB in the NFL I'd rather have in a Championship game, or myself, in any playoff game.Week in and week out stats? What is that? What does that mean? Seriously, what does it mean? Romo's week in and week out stats blow Manning away over the course of their careers. Good luck convincing me or anyone outside of Amani Toomer and Jerry Jones he is the better QB.

In comment 11877664 BlueLou said:

Quote:

from the OP. Almost a great post dep - maybe your best ever - until you start noting Eli's lack of a supporting cast at offensive skills positions. You are just so far off on that it's hilarious. Tiki, Shockey, Toomer, Plax, Jacobs, Bradshaw, Smith, Nicks, Cruz, Manningham, Boss... Reese has, if anything, over-invested in offensive skills positions to buffet Eli over his tenure. Where he's failed is on the

I said all those guys were very talented and have helped eli achieve all of his accomplishments. I don't know how you thought I was putting them down????

In comment 11876272 MarshallOnMontana said:

Quote:

Spoken like someone who only recalls the back portion of favres career, which still compares favorably to elis prime Eli over favre for prime, peak or career is one of the dumbest things ever uttered in the history of western civilization. Lowest common denominator ring counting is about the only thing to cite.

Not what I posted. I posted that Farve gets a pass for his INTs. Eli was ahuige for twio Superbowl runs and wins. The fact that he's very immobile and the OLhas been horrendous. Along with an offensive scheme that leaves many INTs there Eli other than some Giants fans gets almost no slack.

Farve is a HOF 1st ballot guy but his INTs at times cost his teams games. I'm willing to give Eli slack. You don't have to but its an opinion either way. I'm entitled to mine just as you are entitled to yous as I feel two Superbowl runs are signifigant data points in my book.

.

Let's enjoy it.

In comment 11877750 Ira said:

Quote:

Let's enjoy it.

Just add water and give him 3.5 seconds back there and I'll take Eli for the win. Thank you very much.

In comment 11877043 MarshallOnMontana said:

Quote:

Alex smith 11 or 13, all very similar seasons. The fact that you view this as objectionable shows how much your panties are in a bunch regarding this player. If recent history is any indication, by the time we get together to do this again, you will be telling me I said alex smith was better than eli but hey, the fact that a bounce off a knee and the nfl thankfully having instant replay is the only thing stopping them from having played in the same number of sbs, shows how dumb it is to boil a career down to such things

If you swapped QBs in that game, the 49ers win 35-10.

And let me know when Alex Smith makes a throw as good as Eli's TD to Manningham on 3rd-and-15.

you are talking to a guy who refers to people as "eli's fanboys" because they, wait for it - - - actually root for the starting QB of the team they follow!

GASP!

first game I remember). I was also there when the Meadowlands opened in 1976 and we were 0-9 before getting our first win. This has been one of the top 3 era's in Giants football history, and I can't bring myself to criticize the players and coaches who have brought it to us. Soon enough we will regress back to 5-11 consistently, every team almost does, and then people will talk about how great the Manning era was.

can feel anything towards Eli besides a deep sense of gratitude. I just don't get it.

And I never will.

going forward...I wouldn't agree with the argument against him but it's a fair question.

But to knock or lessen his role in the titles already achieved...to me it's beyond the pale.

I can't believe how out of touch people are in regards to paying a QB like Eli.

I saw a pretty well respected poster say last week that they would think a realistic extension this offseason would be 3 years, 21 million.

Exactly!

Here is a perfect example when trying to elevate Alex Smith and lessen Eli:

Quote:

but hey, the fact that a bounce off a knee and the nfl thankfully having instant replay is the only thing stopping them from having played in the same number of sbs, shows how dumb it is to boil a career down to such things

A few problems here:
- It is being rationalized that the only reason the Giants won against SF is due to a lucky bounce and replay
- Aklex Smith would've been in 2 SB's, but not really played, since he wasn't even the starter the following year vs. Baltimore.

In effect, Joe slams people for pointing out facts and "making things up", when he is creating scenarios that don't even exist, aren't even true, and he's extrapolating them all in an effort to lessen eli's achievements. Meanwhile, bring up Favre, and the guy has a fucking coronary trying to reason why he only has 1 SB.

Yet, he has no fucking clue how hypocritical his arguments are.

In order to win two SBs, with or without luck, you have to have a winning streak through two postseasons.

Someone remind me, who was it that did that?

Tick.