NFT: Are you glad you attended college?

Yes, I'm glad I attended college. But it's ridiculously expensive nowadays & there's no guarantee that it'll end with you landing a good gig.

the second time, less yes.

isn't a scam. It is essential to upward mobility in the professional world.

Unless you are a business owner, it is tough to succeed as an employee without education.

It isn't a scam, but it is a gate that most people have to pass through or else they will find the path much more difficult.

and met some hot chicas along the way.

For some people, college is a big waste of money. It is what you make it to be. The movie "Animal House" ruined it for many young people. It is'nt all about parties and alcohol.

of my life

It was some of the best yrs of my life. That said, I dont think its essential for success nowadays but if you dont go you better be damn good at something special to make it.

Our parent's generation.

My parents went to the same school as I did and my sister and it was $5,000 for 4-5 classes (which included rooming) back in 198-whatever. Now, it's something around $40,000 for the year and my sister is attending. When I was there it was around $3500 cheaper than it was for her. I feel so sorry for her.

"Gotta get that education!"

isn't the failure of the college. That's not an attack on you, but you should realize there's nothing stopping you from having your degree be beneficial later.

.

But my tuition was zero which made life easier.

In comment 11877381 State of the Giants 14 said:

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Our parent's generation. My parents went to the same school as I did and my sister and it was $5,000 for 4-5 classes (which included rooming) back in 198-whatever. Now, it's something around $40,000 for the year and my sister is attending. When I was there it was around $3500 cheaper than it was for her. I feel so sorry for her. "Gotta get that education!"

What did you major in?

And i'm one of those guys who spent a little too much time in the classroom and not enough time networking.


The degree is important because it's the baseline for every entry level position regardless of your career. You can change careers and start at the bottom, but it's impossible to do that without a degree.

Big fucking deal. so overrated and not worth it. I could've had a more wild time with my dad at home drinking and watching reruns of Roseanne and Mod Squad. One cool thing was I got to hit up northern Alaska for some "experimenting" on the college's dime. I don't remember that trip too much. lol.

Science

.

Much like the Real Estate bubble, is the next one to burst. It's unsustainable. People graduate now with a mortgage, without owning a house. It's ridiculous, and unsustainable. Recent college grads can't even buy houses because they owe too much money in student loans.

In comment 11877401 Johnny5 said:

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Much like the Real Estate bubble, is the next one to burst. It's unsustainable. People graduate now with a mortgage, without owning a house. It's ridiculous, and unsustainable. Recent college grads can't even buy houses because they owe too much money in student loans.

there was a time when recent college grads could buy houses?

the spike in college tuition is fucking ridiculous these days and what my sister told me is proof positive as to how it is actually worse than it was 5 years ago.

Same college in 1981 was $5,000 to live on campus and is whatever-ridiculous-more % than it is today.

Another thing, probably too many people have degrees. Nothing out of the norm anymore.

I mean, yeah, I'm proud of myself for getting school done and consider it an accomplishment. but can I have something cooler than a single piece of paper with my name on it?

Which one are you again?

It is a lot more important now then even 10 years ago. Art History isn't going to get you anywhere but civil engineering might.

The fact that the premium on acquiring a job where a Bachelor's degree is a pre-requisite is proof that the increases in demand for skilled labor outweighs in the increases in supply.

All the evidence suggests that acquiring a college degree confers returns, on average, above what you would have earned had you taken the money spent on college and had a lower paying job.

All evidence also suggests that graduating during a recession differentially affects the labor market experience, shaping your views.

So, no, college is not a scam.

I have seen no significant return for the degree thus far. Maybe I will one day. People keep telling me this.

Couldn't think of it...

Art history. SO. fucking. worthless.

I remember I took that class with my ex-girlfriend in the fall of 2007. I'm just gonna say I'm very glad we took the course together. She bought me the Simpsons movie and a slush one day. Horrible class, lol. D

.

Holy fuck. Good tight answer.

That if you get a degree, the world is just going to hand you a boatload of money. I think degrees carried more weight when less people had them. The job market is flooded with people with bachelor's and masters degrees.

We went, again, because that is literally what our parents told us.

I did get a job in Chatsworth, NJ testing blueberries. but it's temporary.

research tech. There are field techs, work in zoo's doing animal husbandry, can become a full blown scientist doing research...entomologist, enilvironmental stuff, pathologist or go to med school and become a doctor.

Because that's generally who is recently getting out of college and entering the work force

If that's what we were told by our parents, advisers, and teachers when we were in school?

it, cause I keep going back.

so your parents were right in telling you to go to college. It makes things easier. Like AGF said, it isn't going to just hand you a life of ease, but it will open more doors for you than not having an education.

It makes you eligible for a skilled workforce. what you do with your skills is up to you. There are a lot of cases where people became successful without going to college, but their path is almost always more difficult or a product of their intense desire to succeed (often at the expense of other life qualities).

But it is only a part of what is needed. If one wants to make money and have opportunities, open mindedness to sacrifice in the short term for longer term gains, etc is very important.

Doing what you love is important, but may not pay the bills too well. At the same time, there is nothing wrong with studying what you love and changing gears later either.

It's difficult to foresee what you want to be when you are 18-21 so sometimes it makes sense to not focus on something with limited practical application for financial return. If you decide to change careers for example, just having a college degree and be willing to work hard, can get you where you need to be....without the degree, that can be virtually impossible if there are no lower entry level jobs in that field.

you are living through a tough time, but the experience is invaluable. it was the best time of my life. Grad school? go for it. You don't say what your major was, but you could land a TA position, and go cheaply. good luck and don't quit. :)

and pay off debt as much and as quickly as possible

I hated the place at the time. Have not been back to visit in many years.

I got a strong liberal arts foundation that has given me a perspective that has been unique everywhere I've been in my 31 year career. I did need to invest in trade education after getting my B.S. But that was focused on my line of work and was also very worthwhile.

Continuing with a lifetime of education is essential, especially in today's evolving economy / society. Don't ever let school get in the way of your education though! ( Samuel Clemens )

Go start a commune somewhere, grow your own food, be the local "vet" for the neighboring farmers to earn some cash or barter, and live off the land free. Let the sheep throw their money away getting their worthless degrees to become baristas and waiters somewhere.

that most people learn jack shit in college and therefore it isn't worth going, even if true, ignores the fact that unless and until corporate America "wakes up" to this reality those who don't go will be penalized for failing to do so.

Yes there is trade school and under some circumstances it can be a great alternative. But unless that is right for you (and you know it at 18, which most don't) a better option is to take the college education that presents the best value and try to get the most out of it. Work hard, get good grades, build up a resume with internships and extracurriculars, network with alums (most of whom are flattered to be contacted and happy to help out), annoy the f-ck out of your career services folks, use jobs or scholarships or not going to a middling school charging $40K a year to keep your debt burden low.

But I went on to become a lawyer and it's pretty hard to do that without a college degree. I'm also a lot older than many of you (college 1973, law school 1978) and things were different back then.

That said, I have three kids who went to college and it's been a positive for all three of them as well.

And that said too - the idea that college education is somewhat of a "bubble" these days has some foundation to it. The cost is really high in so many cases, even where the value is speculative. And the kids borrow so much of it - student loans are another story (from a credit viewpoint).

more selective and higher cost colleges/universities do provide higher lifetime incomes than individuals who go to less selective schools.

Though a significant minority of this difference can be controlled for and is due to higher, on average, abilities, these selective degrees have advantages:

1. It's a lucrative signal

2. Alumni connections

So, while college costs are out of line with the anticipated returns, it is not nearly as large as people commonly state.

That if you go to College with a purpose, it would be a tremendous benefit

If you go to College to just "get a job", It could seem like your 4 years were a collosial waste of time...

Right now, I'm working my dream job; I never thought it would be possible....and what I'm doing for a living now IS FAR FROM what my degree is in

I think that had I started College with definitive purpose to my current career path, I probably could have started in it sooner and could be miles ahead of where I am now....but I went to School as a naive 18 year old punk who said "I'll figure it out as I go along"

Truthfully, I should have found a job out of high school and attended College when I had a definitive Career choice

In short, I'm grateful for my 4 years....I'm ever happy that I went...but if I were giving advice to somebody making a college choice, I'd have them consider what they'd REALLY REALLY REALLY want to do for the rest of their life, not what they're into today

I met my wife there and had a great time. If I had it to go over again I wouldn't change a thing.

My post-college career has very little to do with those 4 years.

I don't even think my degree contributed to getting my first job, but it was a requirement (need a college degree).

I only even picked my major (accounting) after my sophomore year because it was the one that required the fewest classes for me to take after that point to get y degree, first two years I took all general and business classes.

I have spent 0 days in my life doing anything in accounting.

My biggest regret is I only took 4 years to graduate. Most of my friends took 5 and I would maybe consider that if I wasn't paying for college myself.

lived on my own ever since, met friends for life, discovered that the greatest sport in the world is rugby, experienced the world on my own for the first time, studied important and interesting things with incredibly intelligent men and women which helped shape my world view, not to mention met my wife?Yeah, I'm pretty glad I went to college.

Is a degree a Get Rich ticket? No. But it's a path to a better life. What kind of returns were you expecting? You understand you're building a career here, and that you've barely been at it as long as it took you to become qualified to enter your field, right?

One final thought: you're 2/3rds of your way through your loans five years out of school...you don't have a lot of room to bitch. You're better off than the vast majority of graduates with loan doubts. There are people drowning in student loan debt. I know people in their 30s who have been faithfully paying loans since graduation who won't be done with those loans until they're in their 50s.

Recently produced a study describing that roughly 25% of college grads dont derive any more economic benefit than if they had entered the workforce with a H.S. Diploma. That there would be a cohort leaving college thinking "shit, that was a waste of time", shouldn't surprise anyone. But that % did seem alarmingly high to me. I'm one of the fortunate ones where it paid off. But just like people shouldn't dive headfirst into a home just because they can get no money down mortgage financing and fulfill the "american dream", it is important as ever that young people think realistically about their prospects and avoid the temptation of grabbing all those student loan dollars in hopes of a big payoff down the road. Im not saying people shouldnt follow their dreams, if they have dreams. But recognize that, with a little ambition, you can build a nice life for yourself without a college degree and the financial burden that goes with it.

In comment 11877622 Taggart said:

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Recently produced a study describing that roughly 25% of college grads dont derive any more economic benefit than if they had entered the workforce with a H.S. Diploma. That there would be a cohort leaving college thinking "shit, that was a waste of time", shouldn't surprise anyone. But that % did seem alarmingly high to me. I'm one of the fortunate ones where it paid off. But just like people shouldn't dive headfirst into a home just because they can get no money down mortgage financing and fulfill the "american dream", it is important as ever that young people think realistically about their prospects and avoid the temptation of grabbing all those student loan dollars in hopes of a big payoff down the road. Im not saying people shouldnt follow their dreams, if they have dreams. But recognize that, with a little ambition, you can build a nice life for yourself without a college degree and the financial burden that goes with it.

I'd love to see that, because recent research from the same NY Fed have found that the returns to a college education are still at an all time high.

And that the struggles of the youth labor market are in no way limited to this recession, and instead are a feature of a youth labor market.

To me, that 25%, based on the preponderence of other evidence, is fabricated bullshit based on faulty indicators.

Was titled "Do the benefits of college still outweigh the costs?" I dont know how to link, but you can google it.

Even the chronically under-employed with a college degree in majors that provide the lowest returns still have benefits of obtaining a college degree that outweigh the costs, on average.

And, considering they talk about the average worker and average college student means that the 25% not obtaining the requisite benefits would be a HUGE finding (i.e., it would be significant at any level).

But, beyond that, the necessary requirement to find observationally equivalent individuals to perform the counter-factual (would have been better with a H.S. degree) doesn't occur in the paper.

They even acknowledge this in subsequent news articles. I mean, this:

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Maybe some college graduates would have earned higher wages even if they had never gone to college. Separating out these two effects in research studies is extremely difficult. Still, while we can’t rule out the possibility that this type of selection is at work, it seems likely that at least on average, the value of a bachelor’s degree remains substantial.

directly contradicts what you said.

their finding that about 33% of individuals who obtain a college degree spend a significant portion of their career in jobs that had no explicit requirement of a college degree.

That does not say that the benefits of the college degree have not been worth it.

College degrees provide signals to employers; it is likely, in fact, that workers who obtain these jobs earn higher pay (if salaried) and are more likely to be targeted for promotion.

The college degree, in these situations, has still been found to be valuable.

This is also evidenced in the fact that individuals who don't graduate from college still earn higher wages than what they would have, because college classes impart some skills that these individuals use later in life.

Well given that I studied botany as an undergrad followed by Master's study in a very specific career like winemaking there's no doubt my education benefited me. But man the tab was a lot smaller back then especially for in state residents at UC (California) schools. And I never made use of networking nearly enough in the early stages of my career.

and learned very little. I was what would now be called ADHD. Graduated with a 2.09 cum, and little fun.

BUT, I scraped by with good enough test scores to get into a mediocre MBA program, and that ultimately led to a long career in investment research and strategy, from which I will soon retire.

So, I didn't have fun, and I learned almost nothing, but would do it again in a heartbeat.

Just how things turned out.

glad.

But it gave me zip as far as a career and business were concerned. It aided in making me understand responsibility, but that is an absurd price to pay for that.

In comment 11877386 Big Al said:

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But my tuition was zero which made life easier.

Same here. Also, books and housing/food.

In comment 11877421 Some Fan said:

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It is a lot more important now then even 10 years ago. Art History isn't going to get you anywhere but civil engineering might.

A Liberal Arts degree is, on average, a better tool than many. I don't disagree with specialty fields such as Engineering, though. Today (and for a long time) any degree in Math or the Sciences is very useful.

Unfortunately for the thread starter, Biology is one of the least productive Sciences. The field is narrow, highly competitive, and is more influenced by contacts than many others.

today without undergrad and grad studies, so yes. But that was a few decades ago. I question the cost of today's education versus the reward. I'm sure it's there, but it may not be as high.

sometimes even a masters. Engineering, CS, Accounting, etc. Yes I am very glad I went and wouldn't be where I am without it.

But I'm not sure it's been a major factor in my professional achievements beyond getting my foot in the door 20 years ago. And had I not gone to a state school and accumulated minimal debt I may feel differently.

The collegiate system as it is now is creating a major problem and it begins with government loans. They are far to easy to get and the schools know this, which enables them to charge obscene tuition rates. Even the costs of attending a state school are out of control.

If students don't have a clear field they want to get into and they're not attending an Ivy League school I think the focus should turn towards attending the least expensive school available, including on line courses.

Sometimes I wish I was a blue collar guy like my father/brother but my father is in bad shape physically and my brother will be one day, already having a back surgery before turning 35.

Something to be said with regard to working with your hands...I did it to help pay for school and to work when I couldn't land a job based on my education level (Finance BA & MBA). Nice to actually see what you did at the end of the day (put up a fence, set up a foundation for a concrete pour, etc) vs. a stack of papers/closed laptop. My family always made a good living...you can make a good living in the trades but too many people don't want to get dirty.

My loans are basically paid off now...I have very little left to pay off and my interest rate is so low there is no reason to pay it off early.

I struggled mightily my freshman year in college and almost quit to be a union pipefitter. If I was in that situation today, give the cost of education, I might have not stayed in school.

you usually need an advanced degree.

and agree with others who say that it is tough to get ahead without a degree.

picking the degree is important. having a clear idea of career path is also important. and, internships and networking along the way is as well.

grandkids are just getting ready to hit college and I keep stressing the importance of college to them. are there alternatives - yes. college is not for everyone. but it's not like when I graduated when there were manufacturing and many other well paying jobs that did not require college.
one thing I stress to them is try and get it done in three years. Take AP courses, summer school and for credit internships (especially important for networking). no need to be there, in residence, for four years for a bachelor's degree.

college should only take 3 years and the notion that you need 4 years in order to have this "well rounded" education is an outdated notion.

pick your career wisely and learn how to manage the money you make wisely.

and don't think you made a bad move by going to college if you are still younger than 35. it takes time to get your career going.

and, you may need to get more education to get the most our of your present degree. could be grad school, could just be getting more work specific skills.

if I had a biology degree, I might think about the medical field. Nursing, PAs, and med school. growing demand and some money out there to offset the costs.

one final note, look for loan forgiveness programs.

Though I do regret the English Degree to some extent. Didn't pay off immediately - had to suffer through a stint at Enterprise Rent-A-Car, first. (I went to college so I could wash a car at 07:30 while wearing a suit?)

Passed up a higher-paying job for one that better aligned with my education and came with tuition-reimbursement, which paid for ~90% of my Masters in Information Systems. Later, my current employer, with whom I have been for over 15 years, financed my MBA.

It was tough at first, but I was lucky that my parents paid for most of college, which was much cheaper in the 80s, so I only had debt resulting from my own irresponsibility to deal with. Lived in group houses, drove a crappy car, and, for a while, worked a second job at a department store to get by, but made a life-long friend, there, and he recruited me into my current gig with a large software company.

Getting that first break was HUGE for me. It was funny - I went out to celebrate an offer for a job that didn't require a degree, and bumped into a girl I knew from college, and she said "Hey, we're looking for a technical writer", and I ended up taking that instead of a job that paid ~33% more, and I could REALLY have used the extra money at the time. I sometimes wonder how things would have worked out if I had taken the other job.

Interesting (to me) note: I've worked three "real" jobs in the 20+ years since I graduated, and all three were via friends; not sure how common that is. It's not like I was particularly popular...

I hope you get your big break soon!

I'm also a liberal arts major and I wouldn't change that either. I can learn new skills, and working in computers I will always be required to add to my skill set. However, being able to understand systems, communicate effectively, and think critically has benefited me in every phase of my career .

toward getting a job, then in many cases, it may not be worth it. If you value education as an end unto itself, then you will have a different view. It depends on what you make of it, and whether you value the process as well as the ends achieved.

i went to college to get an education. an education is worth all the gold in the world. so if you ask me if it was worth what i paid, i say i didnt pay enough...

There's plenty of practical and useful information and life experience to be learned in college, however a lot of those miscellaneous courses that provide no value in the end do add up to a pretty penny. The stated intent is to broaden your experience, which may end up being a life changing eye opener for a small minority, but for the rest of us it kind of feels like the school is saying "fuck you, pay me"

ago. In undergrad, I was an Electrical Engineering/Physics major and had a good job right at graduation. I wanted to major in something that would likely lead directly to a good job, and it did. I made some great friends and have some great memories from those times. Those were some of the best years of my life. After a few years working, I decided that engineering really wasn't for me.

After 5 years in my engineering job, I went to grad school to switch careers. That was even better! I have great memories of those times and met so many incredibly smart people (and formed a number of friendships that will definitely be lifelong). I met my wife there. That degree also led quickly to a job (I had accepted the offer about 6 months before I finished the degree) Fourteen years later, I am still in the same job and like it much more than engineering. I have been incredibly fortunate.

I can't say I have any significant regrets. At both the undergrad and grad levels, I intentionally sought out degrees that I knew would very likely lead directly to employment. If I didn't weigh those factors, I would have majored in music (sometimes I wonder how that would have turned out).

There are great opportunities in college, and unfortunately alot of it is what you make of it. Its a microcosm whose learned lessons perpare you for real life. Next time you're confronted with "dumb" courses; don't take them. Demand to get your money's worth.

It absolutely is a waste for many people who can't walk through the doors of opportunity that college may open. The biggest difference now is the stakes are higher because students carry so much more debt.

...is that concerning an Art History course, which he regarded as meaningless.

Although not definitive, it looks to me that his perception of the role of a college education is strictly as a pathway to a job, not a pathway to knowledge and broadened horizons/sensibilities.

Not getting the expected job, he feels cheated by the system when, in fact, he unwittingly cheated himself by not recognizing the purpose behind such classes.

Economics matter. That knowledge gained does have to justify the cost. If it was cheaper it would be a no-brainer.

claimed he took art history as a science major. I've got a tech degree in chemistry and a liberal arts tech degree. Never told to take art history. Maybe things are different these days, but most of the courses he listed are stuff you take as electives. methinks something doesn't pass the sniff test.

All that said, there are a couple things to consider when graduating high school: First, and most importantly, you need a job skill. There have been plenty of threads about alternatives to college in attaining a job skill. Second, there has to be a need/opening in your job skill. Doesn't do much good to get a degree in a field there's no jobs in (in your area). Also, the level at which you attained your skill. most anything that ends in ology requires more than a 4 yr degree to be anything more than a grunt. Grunt isn't a bad thing. I'm one, and I like it and make a good living. I didn't shell out 40 grand a year for 4 years to get here, though. When my first degree turned out useless, I looked around at what tech degrees were viable in the paycheck. At the time, biology degrees were a dime a dozen. Chemistry was happening, for my area. I'd have preferred biology, but I went with reality. Along with this mantra of 'go to school, get an education' was this mantra of 'you only get one life, do something you enjoy'. If the two merge, great. If you just spend a lot of money on something you can't make a living at, how enjoyable is that?

Cost: most everyone bemoans the cost of college. most everyone I know from anything resembling middle class thinks you have to go away to school, doubling your costs. I went away for a couple years, and went to a community college for a couple years. Both were decent SUNY 2 year schools (both offer 4 year degrees these days). Guess which one was more fun? You want to double your costs for fun, have at it, but don't complain about it afterwards. Rural areas a bit different, but almost every semi-urban area has options for commuter education.

which is what I will encourage my kids to do as well. Graduated in 2007 and I'm more than halfway done with my loans which only ends up being $180 a month.

I can see arguments against not "wasting" money to go to school, but IMO, unless you are going for a very specific degree, paying out of state tuition is pointless and could come with a lot of debt and nothing to show for it.

I wish everyone luck though, its a brutal job market still and kids graduating the last few years have very little options.

In comment 11877725 Crispino said:

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toward getting a job, then in many cases, it may not be worth it. If you value education as an end unto itself, then you will have a different view. It depends on what you make of it, and whether you value the process as well as the ends achieved.

The problem is that at 18 or 19 years old most of us (and I absolutely count myself in there) are poorly equipped to get the most out of college as something more than credentialing. When I started out I shunned the professors that had a rep as ballbusters, but by the time I was a senior it was pretty obvious that the ballbusters were often the best and most dedicated teachers. When it was a choice between a Thirsty Thursday and a lecture or a trip to Montreal and a weekend symposium I usually picked the wrong ones, and even when I started making better choices it was with grad school in mind rather than getting a broad-based education.

To make education available to all. Somehow its now acceptable to put aspiring students deep into debt. That not consistent with their mission and is essentially immoral.

most people who join football forums don't instantly feel comfortable sharing their life's frustrations.

~23K

If you spent 40K a year on a private school that didn't get you any further, you're already 17K in the hole.

room+board+meals was $40k for all 4 years combined. It's definitely more expensive now, but for the life of me I don't get why some of my friends went to some of the schools they did, racking up $150k of debt for essentially the same education.

No only do you have that $150k in debt, that's money you can invest elsewhere on a monthly basis so the cost is far more than $150k.

I really wish finance was a required highschool course for Juniors and Seniors.

In comment 11877753 WideRight said:

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Economics matter. That knowledge gained does have to justify the cost. If it was cheaper it would be a no-brainer.

We have a fundamental disagreement, then. I think that the "useless" courses are of equal value, sometimes greater. Not that you're wrong or I'm right, but my point was not economics but the reason(s) you go to get an education and the expectations generated by those reasons.

so I'm not sure the $$ relationship is broken. Peter is right, for sciences you usually need a Masters in this day. That is not a condemnation of college, but a fact in the job market.

and the resulting debt and lack of "golden job". So this is economics.

I agree an education is extremely valuable and virtuous. But you don't need college to get that. And that value is not measured in $$.

but the cost of living in major cities as far higher than it used to be, which is where most of the jobs are.

The housing costs in NYC, San Fran, Chicago, etc are insane. Your everyday worker is just scraping by in those cities, or they are commuting 3 hours a day if they can't afford to live close.

my high school buddy didn't go to college. Still got a reasonable job (thanks NYS). His oldest is college age a couple years ago, and decides to go out of state. Buddy thinks he owes it to him because Buddy missed out on the college fun. 2 months in, kid misses his (still in high school) girl friend, drops out, costing Daddy Big bucks, accruing no college credit. Now both kid and girl friend commute to a local private college because it's cooler than going to a SUNY school, even though the only thing the school is known for is every once in a blue moon sending a basketball team to the NCAA tournament.

Second fave is a niece who turned down scholarships to go out of state to get a 4 yr women's history degree (on her own dime). She now works at a putt-putt golf course.

No wait, my really fave is my SO's kid who gets a nice degree in accounting (also at this same private school that's big on basketball), cost the SO a ton of money, accrues significant debt (still owed closing on 20 years later), gets a good job in accounting, and gives it up to start a career as an eye tech which any high school degree can get. He's now living in my house, sponging off the SO, because apparently it's tough to make ends meet in a dead end 30K job.

I have 4 or 5 other stories where the college experience led to no greater reward. I have a bunch where it did. Moral of the story: college doesn't make you smarter. you have to make smart choices while increasing your knowledge.

In comment 11877853 WideRight said:

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and the resulting debt and lack of "golden job". So this is economics. I agree an education is extremely valuable and virtuous. But you don't need college to get that. And that value is not measured in $$.

Not get into an "I win/you lose" here, but his complaints are bound up with his expectations, which then feed the frustration he now feels.

EOM

That said I don't think you need to attend some high profile university. Getting a degree even from a local college will help you. It shows commitment to an employer and since you will most likely be interviewed by someone that has their degree they want you to have one too. Also earning a degree while in the military is good way to improve your chances for a career later. I got mine attending school on a part-time basis while serving in the Airforce. The two combined has helped my career and the military helped pay the tuition.

there's more to college than just job positioning.

to go whereever they want (if they are accepted) and not to worry about the cost. Many kids I graduated with were told "Cost is not an option". I've always thought that was flawed advice.

I made a financial decision about my school. I could have went to an out of state school that would have cost $35k/year and racked up over $100k in student loans. Instead I went to a smaller state school that offered me a scholarship. Total cost of my 4 year education (room and board) was less the $10k. I graduated with no loans. Now it is arguable that I may have gotten a better education and/or job at the other school, but I'm not sure it would have been $100k better then where I am now.

Financially, I think I made the right decision. I also met me wife in college, so I also think it was a good personal decision. Would my career be different if I went to that other school? Possibly, but I'm not sure it would have been significantly better.

...

for my degree and I paid for both my sons degrees. I felt it was my obligation to educate my kids just as my parents did for my brother and me. I feel so bad for kids graduating these days with massive debt but I'm also angry with the parents (assuming they are present)of the kids who did not plan ahead for their education.

That said yes I am glad I attended college as are both my kids. You have a college degree and that can never be taken away from you. My parents barely graduated High School and neither of their parents even went to High School. My college and later business experience helped me develop my own business which I will be selling soon for well over $1mil.

5 years is way too soon in your life to make the determination as to weather or not college was worth the time and money. If you revisit this question 5-10 years from now you may feel very different.

but I make more money than most of my friends who have completed college

Some are really good investments.

In comment 11877862 Bill in Del said:

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That said I don't think you need to attend some high profile university. Getting a degree even from a local college will help you. It shows commitment to an employer and since you will most likely be interviewed by someone that has their degree they want you to have one too. Also earning a degree while in the military is good way to improve your chances for a career later. I got mine attending school on a part-time basis while serving in the Airforce. The two combined has helped my career and the military helped pay the tuition.

Don't agree with that initial statement. You still need the required Bachelors for almost every job i've seen when I worked in staffing for almost 5 years. Sure, everyone has them now, but you really do need it for most careers.

Their are certainly outliers, but very few people in the 20-30 age range that forego a college degree will end up making out better in the long run. They key is making a wise choice with the degree and/or school.

In comment 11877889 UConn4523 said:

Quote:

In comment 11877862 Bill in Del said: Quote: That said I don't think you need to attend some high profile university. Getting a degree even from a local college will help you. It shows commitment to an employer and since you will most likely be interviewed by someone that has their degree they want you to have one too. Also earning a degree while in the military is good way to improve your chances for a career later. I got mine attending school on a part-time basis while serving in the Airforce. The two combined has helped my career and the military helped pay the tuition. Don't agree with that initial statement. You still need the required Bachelors for almost every job i've seen when I worked in staffing for almost 5 years. Sure, everyone has them now, but you really do need it for most careers. Their are certainly outliers, but very few people in the 20-30 age range that forego a college degree will end up making out better in the long run. They key is making a wise choice with the degree and/or school.

Not sure you got my point. What I was trying to say was that you need a bachelors today and is as important as a H.S. diploma was years ago.

couldn't afford it and never had a second thought about going..I've seen very successful people not attend college or even wanted to . I have ssen some with 2 majors and still working as a assistant clerk or secretary..

I finally went to college at age 45..just finished my bachelor's a few months ago and have no idea what to do with it..

To me, it's about skill level..That will sometimes trump degrees..

guess I read that wrong, my bad.

1) What major/field you want to go into
2) If you get a Masters/PH D versus a BS

If you want a technical field then you have to have one, maybe even a Masters. The general liberal arts type curriculum/degrees are a thing of the past in this new economy.

In comment 11877917 GMANinDC said:

Quote:

couldn't afford it and never had a second thought about going..I've seen very successful people not attend college or even wanted to . I have ssen some with 2 majors and still working as a assistant clerk or secretary.. I finally went to college at age 45..just finished my bachelor's a few months ago and have no idea what to do with it.. To me, it's about skill level..That will sometimes trump degrees..

GMAN congrats on your Bachelors...Earning a degree at this stage in life is definitely an accomplishment. I'm probably around the same age as you and have thought about going back for a masters but just cant get that motivated. Whether your degree helps you depends on where your at in your career. Obviously you have allot of experience in what you do. If you are looking to move up the ladder and most of your peers have a degree then you just leveled the playing field. If they don't have a degree then your one up on them. If you're not looking to move the ladder and just continue with your current position, then your degree will look real nice hanging on your wall.

In comment 11877788 Dunedin81 said:

Quote:

In comment 11877725 Crispino said: Quote: toward getting a job, then in many cases, it may not be worth it. If you value education as an end unto itself, then you will have a different view. It depends on what you make of it, and whether you value the process as well as the ends achieved. The problem is that at 18 or 19 years old most of us (and I absolutely count myself in there) are poorly equipped to get the most out of college as something more than credentialing. When I started out I shunned the professors that had a rep as ballbusters, but by the time I was a senior it was pretty obvious that the ballbusters were often the best and most dedicated teachers. When it was a choice between a Thirsty Thursday and a lecture or a trip to Montreal and a weekend symposium I usually picked the wrong ones, and even when I started making better choices it was with grad school in mind rather than getting a broad-based education.

Same here. My first two years, it was all about having a good time. I was very immature and didn't even think that a low GPA could hurt me down the line. I didn't care about that at the time. It was about girls, playing in bands, and drinking. Fortunately, I did well enough until my eyes were opened during the second semester of my third year. I was in a five-year joint program between two schools that required transferring after 3 years at the first school. My GPA was right on the border of getting accepted into the engineering school, and I just barely made it. It took a high GPA during the 2nd semester of my 3rd year to push me over the top. That scared the hell out of me and from that point forward I had a pretty high GPA. I think there is a lot to be said for some people not going to college right at 18. In my case, I had no idea what I wanted to do, so I picked the major that my father wanted. I don't regret it, but it did subsequently lead to a career change because it was clearly the wrong path for me.

In comment 11877935 UConn4523 said:

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guess I read that wrong, my bad.

No Prob...and it seems like we agree.

unless the technical expertise is directly relevant to your position, many people wind up needing a degree to get hired but the degree is necessarily in the filed in which they work.
many agencies will retrain you for what their needs are.

re: state versus private schools - all depends in the FA package. For some reason, we made out better with the private schools for our kids.

Thanks and good point..Since i'm in the IT field, is more about getting certifications tha n degrees nowadays..That's what i've been seeing lately..

The current job I am in right now, i interviewed with another company and they told me I didn't have the educational requirements. I interviewed with another compnay 2 months later and got hired for the same job!..

Go figure..

he says degrees in IT are often required but not necessary

taking shit classes like the poetry of TS Eliot just to satisfy an English requirement is for the birds.

After that, it doesn't matter much. Work experience is what matters.

If I could have simply gotten a list of all the books I read in college, instead of actually matriculating, I could've saved $100K and gained an education that approximated the classroom experience, but I wouldn't have learned any of what I learned outside of the classroom and I'm fairly confident that I wouldn't have the career I have today.

In comment 11878085 Gman11 said:

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taking shit classes like the poetry of TS Eliot just to satisfy an English requirement is for the birds.

Done right, a core curriculum can be a great idea. Even if you're a neuroscience major you would prefer that a student graduating from your school be able to draft a college essay and not sound like a tenth grader when the topic of conversation shifts away from one's major. The problem is that frequently people end up opting for the easiest grades and get nothing out of the experience.

It really helps to get into the school's co-op program to get some real world experience. After your first couple of jobs, the degree doesn't hurt but it isn't completely necessary. Experience and actual ability is what IT people need.

We could all learn a thing or two from the poetry of T.S. Eliot.

so that, to satisfy writing requirements (nobody should bitch about having to take an English class; most people's writing, during and post-college, is awful), you can take another course (say, writing in Economics).

But, beyond that, college delivers a skillset and is a signal.

For a lot of people, it is worth it. The problem is, it comes during a time when many people experience freedom for the first time and have the notion that "C's get degrees".

So, many people think its the colleges that are failing the students to give them the return on education they should get, when, quite often, its the student's actions in the first place.

In comment 11878114 kickerpa16 said:

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so that, to satisfy writing requirements (nobody should bitch about having to take an English class; most people's writing, during and post-college, is awful), you can take another course (say, writing in Economics). But, beyond that, college delivers a skillset and is a signal. For a lot of people, it is worth it. The problem is, it comes during a time when many people experience freedom for the first time and have the notion that "C's get degrees". So, many people think its the colleges that are failing the students to give them the return on education they should get, when, quite often, its the student's actions in the first place.

And they could probably do a better job of attaching consequences to those decisions, such as lower interest rates on grades for better grades or for majors likely to beget higher earnings down the road. But it's still hard to get away from the idea that cheap money via student loans is exacerbating these problems.

loans play a significant role in this.

But the student responses shouldn't be a function of it (depending on how you view the socioeconomic benefits of cheaper student loans compared to bringing in more marginal students).

As the token WASP at a Franciscan college in the '70s, I had my pick of Catholic girls who were away from home for the first time.

Fish, meet barrel.

Aside from that, my degrees did not come into play until much later in life. Upon graduating in '78, I went right back to the lucrative career I had during high school and stuck with that until 2009.

The English and History degrees kicked in and found my calling in teaching.

found my calling

In comment 11878157 That Said said:

Quote:

As the token WASP at a Franciscan college in the '70s, I had my pick of Catholic girls who were away from home for the first time. Fish, meet barrel. Aside from that, my degrees did not come into play until much later in life. Upon graduating in '78, I went right back to the lucrative career I had during high school and stuck with that until 2009. The English and History degrees kicked in and found my calling in teaching.

So you were dealing dope after graduating?...;) I kid, I kid.

When did you decide to go into teaching? I would love to be a teacher one day...just not right now.

In comment 11877917 GMANinDC said:

Quote:

couldn't afford it and never had a second thought about going..I've seen very successful people not attend college or even wanted to . I have ssen some with 2 majors and still working as a assistant clerk or secretary.. I finally went to college at age 45..just finished my bachelor's a few months ago and have no idea what to do with it.. To me, it's about skill level..That will sometimes trump degrees..

I think your situation was pretty unique though. You probably attended the best "job skills" training program in the world (as long as your MOS is the proper one). That afforded you the ability not only to get some sought-after skill set but also probably made you desirable by employers seeking your experience and skill set.

For you, college degree is now more to meet specific requirements and probably for feeling of personal accomplishments.

I got my EE degree from a private college ~25 years ago. I paid what I could from summer jobs, and my parents paid the rest (thanks mom & dad). I had some fun times, but the male to female ratio (7:1 at the time) sucked. I was an average student, and probably not very mature at the time. I probably would have liked a slightly larger university better.

Also paid my way through night law school. Not as fun, especially when working all day, but it has paid off.

I believe college is important, but from a return on investment standpoint, WHAT you study is far more important than WHERE you study. You also have to have the right attitude. You should have fun (colleges provide a somewhat sheltered environment in which to grow up and make mistakes), but learning is the priority.

I believe a state school (as an in-state resident) will generally have a much better ROI. I don't understand kids in NJ going to the University of Delaware or Maryland instead of Rutgers or TCNJ. If you want to follow your passion in an area that doesn't pay well, do it at an inexpensive state school unless you're independently wealthy.

I also believe that you should try to get your employer to pay for graduate school.

I'm currently paying close to $60K per year for son's college, with my daughter in the pipeline. As long as he takes his studies seriously (which seems to be the case), I don't have a problem paying the bill. (My kids attended public elementary and High School.) I tell them that in life you will have to work hard no matter what, so you might as well be well compensated and/or love your job.

I have become much more intellectually curious as I have gotten older. Online courses are a great way to receive a first class education at a nominal cost, but online courses are probably not viewed favorably by employers since they are might be too easy. I can see that they have the potential to disrupt costly college education, but it will likely not happen too soon.

re: online courses. issue of quality control

But, I am not glad about how I approached college. I was a very bright kid who was always among the smartest in my class (elementary through high school) without having to put in much effort. I went to class every day, studied the night before an exam, and wrote reports on the final weekend. I was not properly prepared for college and I got no direction from anyone close to me. I wish I had more input and guidance back then.

In comment 11878262 jcp56 said:

Quote:

I got my EE degree from a private college ~25 years ago. I paid what I could from summer jobs, and my parents paid the rest (thanks mom & dad). I had some fun times, but the male to female ratio (7:1 at the time) sucked.

Let me guess - Clarkson?

I could have written your post verbatim. Guidance was a bare minimum. Took me a couple of attempts at college before I got it right even though I was straight A throughout. High school preparation/guidance was a joke. Parents were old school, so they were less than helpful.

Wish I had worked a few years before hand

In comment 11878112 Bluenatic said:

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We could all learn a thing or two from the poetry of T.S. Eliot.

And out he goes, not with a bang, but a whimper.

That's pretty much it, but you can almost say for that for a lot of the people with prior service experience..

i guess since i work for DoD, the majority i see is ex-military with just on the job training and going to school for the GI Bill..Most i have seen don't even work in their major field..

I made it through college in 4 years, but I definitely didn't get it right. My grades were not always where they should have been. Once I settled in, I did well, but it was a roller coaster for two years. I also think pledging a fraternity was the single worst decision I ever made.

Then there is the lack of guidance. My parents knew I was smart, so they kind of left me alone. They offered no advice or opinion or asked questions about majors, careers, etc. So, I graduated with a History major and Sociology minor with no clue what I wanted to do. Had I been pointed in the right direction, I probably would have been in the business school at Albany, which was very good.

Instead, all I knew about "accounting" was that my father was an accountant and I didn't want to be like him. I knew nothing of CPAs. It wasn't until 2 years later that I found a niche in computer programming and went back to school for that.

In comment 11877690 Peter in Atlanta said:

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you usually need an advanced degree.

See, I was fine with all the responses and there were some very good points and you all sound very education. It shows, but something about Peter's that response irked me. It's not his fault but in order for me, to "reap the benefits" of a course or study, I need to spend or "borrow" more money because the 4-year degree wasn't enough. I need to delve into more (expensive) classes and more money to advance. I guess every major or study has to deal with that. Where is that bottle of ....?

Oh yeah, I did meet my wife at college. I almost Forgot about her, lol.

If you picked something else, you wouldn't need the advanced degree. Most people understand that when they choose a major. 10 minutes on the web searching "biology degree jobs" could have saved you a lot of your current angst.

to become a doctor.

What a scam!

ago, into the worst economic times and worst job market since the depression. Reserve judgement until the job market turns around, and see if your degree is worth it then.

In comment 11878754 GMANinDC said:

Quote:

That's pretty much it, but you can almost say for that for a lot of the people with prior service experience.. i guess since i work for DoD, the majority i see is ex-military with just on the job training and going to school for the GI Bill..Most i have seen don't even work in their major field..

I agree. Much of what I've used in my professional career has been learned through OJT (through more mistakes than not along with great mentoring). I would love to say that I've applied my major in my career, but other than critical thinking and writing skills (and even those two skills can be contested by people who know me...ha), I've rarely used it. But then again, I didn't necessarily go to college for my major as much as the school being a means to an end for the career I chose.

In comment 11879251 Pork and Beans said:

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ago, into the worst economic times and worst job market since the depression. Reserve judgement until the job market turns around, and see if your degree is worth it then.

The OP is a troll. The sooner people acknowledge this, the sooner we can ignore his BS and focus on a topic that is actually worth discussing.

and my parents encouraged me to go to school. Why on earth would I go to school for English or Psychology when my biggest strengths in school was Science? You and Wuphat may be right in one sense, but holy fuck that is a lot more money that I do not have for higher education and the burden that I do not want to carry with me until I'm 87 when it's all paid off and I'm still moaning about it.

Plus this was 10 years ago when the economy wasn't in the toilet and I was 18, trusted and heeded to the advise of my counselors and parents.


One of my good friends just graduated med school and she's gonna be in debt a looong time. Is it a scam? Probably not for some people. And others may feel differently, because I sure as fuck did. But hey, there were some good wagers here and it was a good discussion.

a statistics course in college.

But you're a troll, so I wouldn't expect that anyways.

BS degree?

there is very little you can get from college that you can't learn and apply to your life once done with it. However, my opinion on it's validity really is irrelevant as the world requires me to have one in order to be successful (or at the very least strongly encourages I have one).

So could I be just as smart without a degree? Yes. Frankly, without all the distractions, maybe I'd be even smarter.

Would I be as successful as I am now? Absolutely not.

Now, I could have worked harder, gotten better grades, and networked more to ensure getting a higher paid job out of school. But I also could have done that at a much cheaper school.

College does not teach you to be smart. It provides knowledge which is not necessarily smartness. College should teach a person how to best use their innate intelligence, especially in fields such as engineering.

But I always just viewed college as a way to get something beyond college, I.e., a job. I never focused on it improving how I thought. It probably should have been more of a focus but I just fixated on getting the grades and taking the classes needed for the ultimate goal of what was to come after college. I think more kids should have that at the forefront when in college.

That said, college these days is a lot of marketing. As an example, the entire study abroad thing is mostly an enticement for kids, albeit likely for many a worthwhile experience. The kick- ass facilities like workout facilities, etc. are also to attract students.

In comment 11879762 Big Al said:

Quote:

College does not teach you to be smart. It provides knowledge which is not necessarily smartness. College should teach a person how to best use their innate intelligence, especially in fields such as engineering.

lol, I had a feeling someone would nitpick the word "Smart"

Just substitute the word educated everywhere that I used smart, OK?

College in effect is a ticket. The better the school, the better your grades, the better the major, then the better your ticket to get something good after college.

increase intelligence, education, or "smartness" on its own.

It provides a set of tools that you can use elsewhere and apply in other, unique, situations.

It provides these tools in a much more structured environment, as well.

and yet people still attempt a discussion with him. As I said on another thread, if you argue with an idiot, there are two idiots arguing.

about your opinion, though.

talking to anyone in particular?

That was well said. In my personal experience, college did not provide that basis of skills, but grad school did.

In comment 11879818 fkap said:

Quote:

and yet people still attempt a discussion with him. As I said on another thread, if you argue with an idiot, there are two idiots arguing.

While the OP may be a troll, I think the discussion has move onto become a discussion among the non-troll (or less-trollish) posters. So I'm not sure that people providing their own opinion on this matter are necessarily arguing as much as just imparting opinion based on their own experience with college. Not sure it means that the parties here are idiots...well, beyond the OP, maybe.

no disagreement. I didn't make it obvious that I was referring to the OP (although the same pertains to any thread on any topic).

There is quite a bit of useful dialogue here otherwise.

It depends on the major.

But there's a lot of talking past each other.

1) College can be both required for a middle-class life and be overpriced.

2) I am firm believer that college degrees are signalling devices. That is, they don't provide a lot of economic value through their education but they do through their admissions selectivity. That famous study by Alan Krueger and Stacy Dale I think demonstrated pretty clearly that the purported value of selective colleges sprang from an independent variable (i.e. intelligence - the paper uses SAT scores as a proxy). To my knowledge, the paper hasn't been debunked although if anyone has a real conceptual attack on this conclusion, I certainly would be interested in reading it.

In comment 11879875 fkap said:

Quote:

no disagreement. I didn't make it obvious that I was referring to the OP (although the same pertains to any thread on any topic). There is quite a bit of useful dialogue here otherwise.

Cool...no prob. I didn't want you and kicker to have a misunderstanding...:)

In comment 11879796 Some Fan said:

Quote:

College in effect is a ticket. The better the school, the better your grades, the better the major, then the better your ticket to get something good after college.

Somefan: Instead of a "ticket", how about calling it a "required upfront fee"?

In comment 11879884 cosmicj said:

Quote:

But there's a lot of talking past each other. 1) College can be both required for a middle-class life and be overpriced. 2) I am firm believer that college degrees are signalling devices. That is, they don't provide a lot of economic value through their education but they do through their admissions selectivity. That famous study by Alan Krueger and Stacy Dale I think demonstrated pretty clearly that the purported value of selective colleges sprang from an independent variable (i.e. intelligence - the paper uses SAT scores as a proxy). To my knowledge, the paper hasn't been debunked although if anyone has a real conceptual attack on this conclusion, I certainly would be interested in reading it.

I referenced Dale and Krueger (not by name) earlier, but brought up some misgivings that they (and others) have not addressed (not sure if they can).

1. The total "return" also includes the alumni connections at a school, which are typically much stronger at more selective schools. This won't be captured in the wage analysis, however.

2. SAT scores as a proxy for intelligence has been minimized more recently, simply because it's pretty poor (correlated with race, for instance). So, they observe that school selectivity is important for minority students, but because of using SAT scores, their estimates are biased (i.e., not high enough).

3. They need to also measure earnings growth. It is likely that the tools provided by more selective colleges don't manifest themselves immediately, but manifest themselves later on in life. A lot of studies have found that early wage growth comes from switching jobs often to find the best job. It's hard to incorporate into their story, but it mitigates their findings.

So, while their story is important (selective colleges don't provide better tools; they simply have higher ability students), it tends to minimize the upward mobility of selective colleges for significant sub-groups in the population (blacks, Hispanics, students from less educated backgrounds).

In comment 11877576 kickerpa16 said:

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more selective and higher cost colleges/universities do provide higher lifetime incomes than individuals who go to less selective schools. Though a significant minority of this difference can be controlled for and is due to higher, on average, abilities, these selective degrees have advantages: 1. It's a lucrative signal 2. Alumni connections So, while college costs are out of line with the anticipated returns, it is not nearly as large as people commonly state.

Kicker, can you provide references? I'd like to read the studies. Also, can you you tell me if "higher life-time incomes" exceeds the difference in outlays (which would probably be $120-150K). Also, what fraction of enrollees are we talking about. I would guess that included in the mix are scions who would make higher amounts anyway because of who they are, independent of college.

In comment 11879935 Bill L said:

Quote:

In comment 11877576 kickerpa16 said: Quote: more selective and higher cost colleges/universities do provide higher lifetime incomes than individuals who go to less selective schools. Though a significant minority of this difference can be controlled for and is due to higher, on average, abilities, these selective degrees have advantages: 1. It's a lucrative signal 2. Alumni connections So, while college costs are out of line with the anticipated returns, it is not nearly as large as people commonly state. Kicker, can you provide references? I'd like to read the studies. Also, can you you tell me if "higher life-time incomes" exceeds the difference in outlays (which would probably be $120-150K). Also, what fraction of enrollees are we talking about. I would guess that included in the mix are scions who would make higher amounts anyway because of who they are, independent of college.

Dale & Krueger, (2002, 2011).

Willis & Rosen, Education and Self-Selection.

Kane & Rouse, Labor Market Returns to 2 and 4 Year Colleges

Angrist, The Economic Returns to Schooling in the West Bank and Gaza Strip

And what fraction? Studies don't tell you the fraction. They tell you the estimated average, which holds on an ex-ante basis, and depends on the distribution. Assuming normal, it means that it should hold for 67+% of individuals.

And yes, higher lifetime incomes, coupled with the returns to schooling, exceed the outlays and opportunity costs.

Since the outlay is typically not done upfront, but is amortized over the lifetime of the student aid loan, you can compare the increase in the income relative to the counterfactual; what you would have earned without the degree.

That is estimated to be around a 9% difference.

and not disinclined to disagree with the OP completely.

I'm glad I went and I think it was worthwhile. I'm glad my kids went and I think it was worthwhile (jury is still out though). And I think pretty much everyone here would feel the same. But this is a very selective bunch. On the whole I would guess that we're already more natively intelligent, better off economically even before college, and in general more white-collared. To progress to our parents level and beyond, college is essential and worthwhile.

But I think the vast majority of American as not like us. I think their average native intelligence (at least from an academic perspective) is fairly average and I think most Americans are pretty much disinterested in academics for knowledge sake and, I guess to the point of necessity for a degree, not helpful for a future career. IOW, I think that as we have devalued work in general as a society over the past 5 or 6 decades, we have devalued the importance and worth of trades and over-sold college as a necessity. Basically, if you need it, it's worthwhile but IMO most people don't really need it.

In addition, I am interested in kicker's study on private schools (and I forgot to add in my last post...does his conclusion hold true still if you take out the ivies and ivy wannabees and just look at the other privates, where networking may not be as beneficial), but my instincts say that for the vast majority of people who do go to college and for whom it might be beneficial, you are better off at a state school.

Finally, I'll be a curmudgeon and say that the worth, especially at a pricey private school, beyond the classroom, gives value is in my opinion BS or, at the least, oversold. I do believe in the academics and the networking, but the social, maturing, friends for life parts is definitely hoakum, IMO.

at the marginal person, for whom the total lifetime income SHOULD be $120-$150k above what you would have earned as a H.S. student), we see that:

H.S. Degree: $40,000
Bachelor's Degree: $66,000

That's the annual median difference. So, we're really not talking the students that selective colleges draw from.

You make up that $150,000 difference in less than 6 years (assuming no discount rate), and, assuming a steep discount rate of 10% (but a total upfront cost of $150,000), make it up in less than 9 years.

This simple example controls for literally nothing, so it's an over-estimate and under-estimate at the exact same time.

I'll find them and read them

we're talking private versus public and not the difference of Bachelors versus only a HS diploma?

In comment 11879950 Bill L said:

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and not disinclined to disagree with the OP completely. I'm glad I went and I think it was worthwhile. I'm glad my kids went and I think it was worthwhile (jury is still out though). And I think pretty much everyone here would feel the same. But this is a very selective bunch. On the whole I would guess that we're already more natively intelligent, better off economically even before college, and in general more white-collared. To progress to our parents level and beyond, college is essential and worthwhile. But I think the vast majority of American as not like us. I think their average native intelligence (at least from an academic perspective) is fairly average and I think most Americans are pretty much disinterested in academics for knowledge sake and, I guess to the point of necessity for a degree, not helpful for a future career. IOW, I think that as we have devalued work in general as a society over the past 5 or 6 decades, we have devalued the importance and worth of trades and over-sold college as a necessity. Basically, if you need it, it's worthwhile but IMO most people don't really need it. In addition, I am interested in kicker's study on private schools (and I forgot to add in my last post...does his conclusion hold true still if you take out the ivies and ivy wannabees and just look at the other privates, where networking may not be as beneficial), but my instincts say that for the vast majority of people who do go to college and for whom it might be beneficial, you are better off at a state school. Finally, I'll be a curmudgeon and say that the worth, especially at a pricey private school, beyond the classroom, gives value is in my opinion BS or, at the least, oversold. I do believe in the academics and the networking, but the social, maturing, friends for life parts is definitely hoakum, IMO.

That's missing the point of the numbers.

The numbers don't say that you will get benefits from college if you go automatically.

It assumes there is a natural sorting process in place (there is). It's not an absolute. It's a relative return. It's not meant as a draw for the bottom of the barrel in terms of ability, but a draw for the continued marginal students who are deciding where they would be better off, on average.

Oh, and the extra benefits of a private school are not hokum...

um...uh...what?

In comment 11879962 Peter in Atlanta said:

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um...uh...what?

It's my qualified, cautious and reserved agreement

In comment 11879960 kickerpa16 said:

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In comment 11879950 Bill L said: Quote: and not disinclined to disagree with the OP completely. I'm glad I went and I think it was worthwhile. I'm glad my kids went and I think it was worthwhile (jury is still out though). And I think pretty much everyone here would feel the same. But this is a very selective bunch. On the whole I would guess that we're already more natively intelligent, better off economically even before college, and in general more white-collared. To progress to our parents level and beyond, college is essential and worthwhile. But I think the vast majority of American as not like us. I think their average native intelligence (at least from an academic perspective) is fairly average and I think most Americans are pretty much disinterested in academics for knowledge sake and, I guess to the point of necessity for a degree, not helpful for a future career. IOW, I think that as we have devalued work in general as a society over the past 5 or 6 decades, we have devalued the importance and worth of trades and over-sold college as a necessity. Basically, if you need it, it's worthwhile but IMO most people don't really need it. In addition, I am interested in kicker's study on private schools (and I forgot to add in my last post...does his conclusion hold true still if you take out the ivies and ivy wannabees and just look at the other privates, where networking may not be as beneficial), but my instincts say that for the vast majority of people who do go to college and for whom it might be beneficial, you are better off at a state school. Finally, I'll be a curmudgeon and say that the worth, especially at a pricey private school, beyond the classroom, gives value is in my opinion BS or, at the least, oversold. I do believe in the academics and the networking, but the social, maturing, friends for life parts is definitely hoakum, IMO. That's missing the point of the numbers. The numbers don't say that you will get benefits from college if you go automatically. It assumes there is a natural sorting process in place (there is). It's not an absolute. It's a relative return. It's not meant as a draw for the bottom of the barrel in terms of ability, but a draw for the continued marginal students who are deciding where they would be better off, on average. Oh, and the extra benefits of a private school are not hokum...

Explain...

I'm not talking about networking or service, I'm talking about cultural or recreational aspects. at not meaning to single out privates. Even at public school costs, I think that's a waste of the money.

(not) (dis)inclined to (dis)agree = not inclined to agree.

outside your school/degree.

The network benefits of having a higher fraction of people living on campus.

Ability and ease to join in wide-ranging campus events.

More ability to work with campus-wide community support.

are not readily available. It also depends on how you classify the religious schools (they go under private, but significantly bring down the benefits).

However, for ALL public vs. ALL private, there is a $2,000 initial starting salary wage gap, and a $5,000 mid career wage gap. But that is, essentially, useless information.

And yes, like any numbers, if you bring down the top (like the Ivies), the average will fall. I don't understand this line of reasoning. If you take away the flagship state schools with higher price tags (or the in-state tuition benefits), the average benefit of state schools decreases while the average cost increases.

I think those benefits are overstated and most of what you get out of it could be gotten in venues regardless of whether you went to school or not.

In comment 11879967 Peter in Atlanta said:

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(not) (dis)inclined to (dis)agree = not inclined to agree.

Yeah, you're probably right

In comment 11879969 kickerpa16 said:

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outside your school/degree. The network benefits of having a higher fraction of people living on campus. Ability and ease to join in wide-ranging campus events. More ability to work with campus-wide community support.

Hey...you just described my school...:)

In comment 11879979 Bill L said:

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I think those benefits are overstated and most of what you get out of it could be gotten in venues regardless of whether you went to school or not.

Again, simply because you want to truncate at a different place isn't valid.

You can't truncate one set of data and leave the other untouched, and expect to have a reliable and valid set of data. If I take out the flagship state schools, private schools look a lot better. But that's a useless comparison.

You want to make it a more apropos consideration, take out the religious private schools that cater only to religion. Which means eliminating a ton of schools with graduates that don't earn much income.

because the vast proportion of college seniors...scratch that...parents of college seniors have to choose between paying 50K versus 20K and almost none will go to an ivy. So, the choice is between a really nice private...say (in my home town) Siena College versus the University at Albany (or something like Hofstra versus Stony Brook) where the networking potential may not be as strong as at Harvard. In those cases, do you make the difference back?

In comment 11879985 RC02XX said:

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In comment 11879969 kickerpa16 said: Quote: outside your school/degree. The network benefits of having a higher fraction of people living on campus. Ability and ease to join in wide-ranging campus events. More ability to work with campus-wide community support. Hey...you just described my school...:)

Obviously, you made your college costs back. Even before you graduated :-)

In comment 11880001 Bill L said:

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because the vast proportion of college seniors...scratch that...parents of college seniors have to choose between paying 50K versus 20K and almost none will go to an ivy. So, the choice is between a really nice private...say (in my home town) Siena College versus the University at Albany (or something like Hofstra versus Stony Brook) where the networking potential may not be as strong as at Harvard. In those cases, do you make the difference back?

Unless you assume that people are stupid and more government involvement is needed, because there are serious misallocations of resources, yes, you make it back.

If comparing mid-tier public vs. mid-tier private (the median salaries for privates are higher than the median salaries for public, by about the same figures; $2,500 for start of career, $6,000 for mid-career).

aspect I am glad I attended college, but most of what I have learned in my professional career I have learned by doing.

In comment 11880007 Bill L said:

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Obviously, you made your college costs back. Even before you graduated :-)

Well, shit...you know exactly how it is with your son being in similar situation. But yeah, the cost of going to school was free but the overall cost wasn't free...not even close.

In comment 11880062 RC02XX said:

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In comment 11880007 Bill L said: Quote: Obviously, you made your college costs back. Even before you graduated :-) Well, shit...you know exactly how it is with your son being in similar situation. But yeah, the cost of going to school was free but the overall cost wasn't free...not even close.

But you fun extracurriculars...

I haven't read the whole thread, but I have a question(someone may have already touched on this topic). I haven't looked at the data in a long time, but I would bet that it is still the case that college grads have mean IQ scores about a standard deviation above the population average. Is this particular variable routinely taken into account when looking at things like median incomes for H.S. grads versus college grads? I assume it must be taken into account in some analyses.

In comment 11880139 Rick5 said:

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I haven't read the whole thread, but I have a question(someone may have already touched on this topic). I haven't looked at the data in a long time, but I would bet that it is still the case that college grads have mean IQ scores about a standard deviation above the population average. Is this particular variable routinely taken into account when looking at things like median incomes for H.S. grads versus college grads? I assume it must be taken into account in some analyses.

It is, but imperfectly, since the wage records often don't link up with IQ.

SAT scores are routinely used, as are other cognitive measures (some form of standardized tests).

It's called "ability bias" in the literature.

In comment 11880179 kickerpa16 said:

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SAT scores are routinely used, as are other cognitive measures (some form of standardized tests).

Close enough. So how much do the income numbers change if you look at college grads versus H.S. grads matched on cognitive ability?

In comment 11880094 Bill L said:

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But you fun extracurriculars...

And by fun you mean mandatory and not fun, sure.

In comment 11880198 Rick5 said:

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In comment 11880179 kickerpa16 said: Quote: SAT scores are routinely used, as are other cognitive measures (some form of standardized tests). Close enough. So how much do the income numbers change if you look at college grads versus H.S. grads matched on cognitive ability?

Sorry, had class and a meeting.

There has been very limited cognitive matching tests done because those tests aren't matched up well in the large datasets we have.

They have been done on a limited basis in the military (and some international comparison test), where the returns don't fall by that much (by about half a percentage point, from 9 to 8.5).

What has been done to offset this a bit is looking at observationally equivalent individuals (or creating the relevant counterfactual) who don't go to any college, drop out of 2 year college, and graduate 2 year college.

And there is even a positive return for each semester completed (I think each semester adds close to 1.5% to wages). This has reduced the difference between looking at individuals who are different (the variance is much smaller, so the numbers are closer to being statistically unbiased).

In comment 11880198 Rick5 said:

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In comment 11880179 kickerpa16 said: Quote: SAT scores are routinely used, as are other cognitive measures (some form of standardized tests). Close enough. So how much do the income numbers change if you look at college grads versus H.S. grads matched on cognitive ability?

And the reason is the following:

Each matched cognitive ability pair has about the same ex-ante (before the decision to go to college or not) probability to succeed.

However, employers don't view these cognitive abilities. They use completion of a college degree as a signal. So, the ex-post (after going to college or not) probabilities have now separated (known in the literature as a separating equilibrium, where what was once identical now is not, because of the realization of some event, in this case, completing college).

So, even with identical abilities, those who go into jobs where college degrees are not required still have the signal and are compensated accordingly.

maybe later tonight.

Here's the deal - I started out in a job just like you - surrounded by people who didn't have a college education, just trying to make a little money. This is what I found:

Hard work and a professional attitude helps, but is not enough.

Hard work and a professional attitude combined with actual talent will get you into entry-level management positions, with college unnecessary.

Hard work and a professional attitude combined with actual talent and people skills can get you qualified for mid-management.

Here is where you need the degree. You will find that at that level, not having a degree is an automatic disqualifier. It's a built-in excuse for senior managers to overlook you. So you definitely need a degree at this point. It's frustrating to those without the degree - as often they see that they have the most talent in the shop, work as hard as anyone else, have great professional/social skills, but cannot get that next promotion.

Senior managers must have all of the above, and typically an advanced degree. Barring this, they must have an exceptional track record of success and experience.

Executive managers must have all of the above, including an advanced degree + track record + industry knowledge.

Now you can bypass much of these requirements by having the right degree and having the right connections. Depending on the quality of these two components, you can walk into almost any office in America ready to take a job.

If you are stuck somewhere be glad that you have that degree. You can fix a lot of what you are missing (gain social & other skills/talent, change/fix professional approach/effort, grow contacts/experience/industry knowledge) and find the lack of degree will hold you back.

Thanks. It makes perfect sense that the posterior probabilities would be altered. I would expect that. I was thinking more generally in terms of how much of the income gap can be attributed to greater ability rather than a degree in a very broad sense (across all possible occupations). However, I guess you still can't get around the fact that many of the relatively high paying occupations (e.g., engineering) are going to require the degree. Also, I imagine that the vast majority of people with relatively high ability go to college (the "signal" to employers as I think you referred to it). There are probably some interesting variables that differ between (relatively) high ability individuals who decide not to attend college (assuming they don't go into the military) and those who do.

I hope the teaching is going well!

...

for me it's much more simple. A 'college degree' should not be the objective. It's not even the school you go to. IMHO, it's about the major you select. The major you choose should have a high correlation to the position (job) you want.

I feel sorry for many young people that complain about their situation, because they got a liberal arts degree and want a 6 figure job thrown in their laps...

And alumni "connections" just re-inforce those career path obstacles for those without degrees or lesser degrees. Its not that the executive who went to Harvard promotes the guy who went to Harvard because he went to Harvard. But he/she is invested in his decisions both positively and negatively. If consensus is required for a promotion, having Harvard on the resume helps gain that consensus. Thats not an alumni connection per se, but it has the same effect. And conversely if a promotion goes snafu and the process requires review, the executive has an out when the guy went to Harvard. He was supposedly the best choice on paper. If there is no distinguishing feature like that, the executive may be on the hook for a costly decision. This happens all the the time and impacts earnings to the tune of millions of dollars.

So on average there may be a small benefit, but as careers progress, the differnce can become huge. It is also so large at the end that I doubt the average benefit in the beginning is significant. Which brings us back to square one - it may not matter that much for most people. If you're not ambitious, be honest with yourself and save alot of money.

I'm glad I did attend as soon as I got out of high school. I had to stop going for about 5 years and I'm 90-something credits in and I'm back at it after a 5 year hiatus. I feel like I'm doing quite well and care A LOT more being that I am an "older tune"... It is, however, a bit odd taking classes with 19 year olds.

"If consensus is required for a promotion, having Harvard on the resume helps gain that consensus. Thats not an alumni connection per se, but it has the same effect"

was thinking the same thing. connections made at a 4 yr level are a bit overblown, IMO. However, having a spiffy college on your resume is like dressing for success. employers perk up when they see nice dress, or nice college (even if the college isn't necessarily better, it has the name recognition).

There's also the aspect that Ivy league entry often includes connections to begin with, and money families (and money families usually come with connections, unless you're a lottery winner), so it's more likely you come from a culture of connections, and even if you're a dunce at it, you can make it based on family connections. Thus it all becomes a spiral upwards. The college education may not be any better, but the cultural aspect of it from all angles is. But all that is a completely separate issue of whether college is worth attending.

for some firms we were told even good grades were unlikely to overcome an undergraduate degree from a middling school.

There's some significant confirmation bias, regret, and sour grapes all blended together, which produce a bitter and negative view.

It's sad to see a generation experiencing this, and I understand the variables involved. But, I do question the wisdom in choosing to borrow for a massively expensive education in the current economic environment, and then complaining about it later when it's not a secret the workforce is lacking opportunities for entry level candidates.

In comment 11880903 JonC said:

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There's some significant confirmation bias, regret, and sour grapes all blended together, which produce a bitter and negative view. It's sad to see a generation experiencing this, and I understand the variables involved. But, I do question the wisdom in choosing to borrow for a massively expensive education in the current economic environment, and then complaining about it later when it's not a secret the workforce is lacking opportunities for entry level candidates.

I get that, but it's not like 17 year olds and 18 year olds are remarkably astute consumers. They see (nearly) free money, and they rely on advice from parents steeped in previous economic realities, and who also view children attending college - particularly a good college - as some sort of evidence of their own success in parenting. A thirty year old who goes to law school doesn't have much of an excuse. There is ample evidence out there to suggest that with rare exceptions it is a bad investment. But a teenager with a limited number of obvious alternatives (construction? table service? retail)?

to time things up. If you enter in a recovering job market, it's likely you only suffer for a short time.

For all other recessions, the impact of graduating at the peak (or near the peak) of the recession is significant and long-lasting.

We may not want them to face those realities as much, but the demand for labor with a college education is still growing strong and, depending on your view of how technology will complement or substitute for these workers in the interim will drive your predictions.

2 year suny school, for associates degree.


just betting i'll be a little better off than i was without it.

In comment 11880910 Dunedin81 said:

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In comment 11880903 JonC said: Quote: There's some significant confirmation bias, regret, and sour grapes all blended together, which produce a bitter and negative view. It's sad to see a generation experiencing this, and I understand the variables involved. But, I do question the wisdom in choosing to borrow for a massively expensive education in the current economic environment, and then complaining about it later when it's not a secret the workforce is lacking opportunities for entry level candidates. I get that, but it's not like 17 year olds and 18 year olds are remarkably astute consumers. They see (nearly) free money, and they rely on advice from parents steeped in previous economic realities, and who also view children attending college - particularly a good college - as some sort of evidence of their own success in parenting. A thirty year old who goes to law school doesn't have much of an excuse. There is ample evidence out there to suggest that with rare exceptions it is a bad investment. But a teenager with a limited number of obvious alternatives (construction? table service? retail)?

I hear you as well, but there's always the conservative compromise of attending an in-state school. Someone in the decision making equation has to use their brain. I made the same decision at 18, two of my cousins as well, etc. I realize this isn't always the end result, but speaking from a logical, common sense perspective it appears a relatively simple thought process, imv.

In comment 11880487 Rick5 said:

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Thanks. It makes perfect sense that the posterior probabilities would be altered. I would expect that. I was thinking more generally in terms of how much of the income gap can be attributed to greater ability rather than a degree in a very broad sense (across all possible occupations). However, I guess you still can't get around the fact that many of the relatively high paying occupations (e.g., engineering) are going to require the degree. Also, I imagine that the vast majority of people with relatively high ability go to college (the "signal" to employers as I think you referred to it). There are probably some interesting variables that differ between (relatively) high ability individuals who decide not to attend college (assuming they don't go into the military) and those who do. I hope the teaching is going well!

I agree. It's something that the datasets should include more of, but with the sensitive nature of administrative data documents, I'm not sure you could link the cognitive tests even if you wanted (rely much more on self-reported income data, which has its problems).

Teaching is going well. Dealing with that, research, and some other projects makes my days long!

Hope you are well.

That's where the free money comes in. The decision to go to college is certainly defensible, as is the decision to try to get into the best colleges you can (at least relative to your anticipated major), but when choosing between comparably ranked colleges cost, not the most luxurious dorms or the best fitness centers, should be the deciding factor.

I had help with undergrad but I am still paying for my decision to go to UVM. I started out at Rowan, which was fine, but instead of looking at Rutgers or other good NJ schools (or even just less expensive state schools) I went for one of the most expensive public schools in the country because it's a nice campus and my girlfriend was there.

the topic is one where one size does not fit all.

There's a huge difference between graduate and undergrad, just as there's a difference between undergrad and a 2yr degree, and I learned a skill even though I have minimal/no college vs 'I never learned a job skill and now I'm doomed to plucking chickens, or pumping gas, or stocking shelves at Wally world'.

Does more college help? for particular professional band jobs (like law), absolutely. you're not getting the job without it, and you're dwindling down to the top few percent of the workforce.

however, a lot of 4 yr vs 2 yr jobs are a bit grey. now you're talking the middle band of workers, skilled, but not professional band. I work for a high tech R&D center. for a while, the company wanted 4 year degrees for technicians. Then they found that 4 yr students had an unrealistic expectation of what their career possibilities were, and became disillusioned and lesser workers. They found 2 year degrees were exactly what they needed, while 4 yr degree students were stuck in no man's land, thinking they're too good to be techs and not qualified to be engineers. I suspect it's the same for many 4 yr degrees.

Then, there's the base of the pyramid: those who are unskilled or semi-skilled, where college may not be a requisite at all.

There's too much general discussion without acknowledging that what applies for graduate degrees, may not apply to undergrad, and may be completely foreign for <4 years of schooling.

I desperately wanted to go NYU, and the price tag in 1988 and upwards of $100k in student loans triggered my frugal middle class brain. My SUNY education wound up costing less than $10k including books and luckily has served me well.

That's a huge contributory factor.

The results are based on the number of people who currently go to college, so we are even now rapidly reaching where the marginal person is coming into play (which means none of this comes close to extrapolating to a large minority of jobs, or applies to a large fraction of people).

The easy money made that marginal person be much lower on the income spectrum, but did it speed up an inevitability (the growth in college grads has been rather constant across time), or did we move beyond the taper point long ago?

I think it's the former, but speeding up the process ain't desirable.

In comment 11880962 JonC said:

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I desperately wanted to go NYU, and the price tag in 1988 and upwards of $100k in student loans triggered my frugal middle class brain. My SUNY education wound up costing less than $10k including books and luckily has served me well.

I applied for law school after undergrad and actually sent NYU a deposit check (which they didn't refund, nor would they even waive a reapplication fee) before deciding to enlist. As my enlistment wound up I started reapplying, and by this time I had a wife and a daughter so I was much more discriminating. I got into two (arguably) better schools the next time around but accounting for living expenses and the little bit of financial aid I received UVA was 1/2 the price of the other two, so thankfully I was smart enough to decide based on this. I can't fathom having 2-3x the loan burden, which it probably would have been had deployments not postponed my last two years into the timeframe of the post-9/11 GI Bill.

In comment 11880925 kickerpa16 said:

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Teaching is going well. Dealing with that, research, and some other projects makes my days long! Hope you are well.

Yeah, I'm fine. The workload doesn't seem to change much compared to grad school. :) You just have a (little) more control over your time (at least that's been my experience).

Don't let me slide on the research study. I'd still like to get back to talking about it at some point. Maybe next semester?

I meant "(a little)."

that will tide me over, but next semester we will definitely start it up.

I need to not slide as well :)

The graduating classes of the past 7 years have had it tough. Granted, even the more experienced have had a rough go of it. Used to be a grad could pick and choose his employment from multiple opportunities and prosper. Now, it's a different game.

Coming from the financial world i feel it's destined to get worse. There is certainly money to be made yet i feel it's for fewer people.

In comment 11880971 Dunedin81 said:

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In comment 11880962 JonC said: Quote: I desperately wanted to go NYU, and the price tag in 1988 and upwards of $100k in student loans triggered my frugal middle class brain. My SUNY education wound up costing less than $10k including books and luckily has served me well. I applied for law school after undergrad and actually sent NYU a deposit check (which they didn't refund, nor would they even waive a reapplication fee) before deciding to enlist. As my enlistment wound up I started reapplying, and by this time I had a wife and a daughter so I was much more discriminating. I got into two (arguably) better schools the next time around but accounting for living expenses and the little bit of financial aid I received UVA was 1/2 the price of the other two, so thankfully I was smart enough to decide based on this. I can't fathom having 2-3x the loan burden, which it probably would have been had deployments not postponed my last two years into the timeframe of the post-9/11 GI Bill.

Good stuff, we certainly agree a little age and experience goes a long way. I beat myself up for a few years after passing on NYU, but the lack of monster payments got me to let it go before long.