NFT: Are you glad you attended college?

taking shit classes like the poetry of TS Eliot just to satisfy an English requirement is for the birds.

After that, it doesn't matter much. Work experience is what matters.

If I could have simply gotten a list of all the books I read in college, instead of actually matriculating, I could've saved $100K and gained an education that approximated the classroom experience, but I wouldn't have learned any of what I learned outside of the classroom and I'm fairly confident that I wouldn't have the career I have today.

In comment 11878085 Gman11 said:

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taking shit classes like the poetry of TS Eliot just to satisfy an English requirement is for the birds.

Done right, a core curriculum can be a great idea. Even if you're a neuroscience major you would prefer that a student graduating from your school be able to draft a college essay and not sound like a tenth grader when the topic of conversation shifts away from one's major. The problem is that frequently people end up opting for the easiest grades and get nothing out of the experience.

It really helps to get into the school's co-op program to get some real world experience. After your first couple of jobs, the degree doesn't hurt but it isn't completely necessary. Experience and actual ability is what IT people need.

We could all learn a thing or two from the poetry of T.S. Eliot.

so that, to satisfy writing requirements (nobody should bitch about having to take an English class; most people's writing, during and post-college, is awful), you can take another course (say, writing in Economics).

But, beyond that, college delivers a skillset and is a signal.

For a lot of people, it is worth it. The problem is, it comes during a time when many people experience freedom for the first time and have the notion that "C's get degrees".

So, many people think its the colleges that are failing the students to give them the return on education they should get, when, quite often, its the student's actions in the first place.

In comment 11878114 kickerpa16 said:

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so that, to satisfy writing requirements (nobody should bitch about having to take an English class; most people's writing, during and post-college, is awful), you can take another course (say, writing in Economics). But, beyond that, college delivers a skillset and is a signal. For a lot of people, it is worth it. The problem is, it comes during a time when many people experience freedom for the first time and have the notion that "C's get degrees". So, many people think its the colleges that are failing the students to give them the return on education they should get, when, quite often, its the student's actions in the first place.

And they could probably do a better job of attaching consequences to those decisions, such as lower interest rates on grades for better grades or for majors likely to beget higher earnings down the road. But it's still hard to get away from the idea that cheap money via student loans is exacerbating these problems.

loans play a significant role in this.

But the student responses shouldn't be a function of it (depending on how you view the socioeconomic benefits of cheaper student loans compared to bringing in more marginal students).

As the token WASP at a Franciscan college in the '70s, I had my pick of Catholic girls who were away from home for the first time.

Fish, meet barrel.

Aside from that, my degrees did not come into play until much later in life. Upon graduating in '78, I went right back to the lucrative career I had during high school and stuck with that until 2009.

The English and History degrees kicked in and found my calling in teaching.

found my calling

In comment 11878157 That Said said:

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As the token WASP at a Franciscan college in the '70s, I had my pick of Catholic girls who were away from home for the first time. Fish, meet barrel. Aside from that, my degrees did not come into play until much later in life. Upon graduating in '78, I went right back to the lucrative career I had during high school and stuck with that until 2009. The English and History degrees kicked in and found my calling in teaching.

So you were dealing dope after graduating?...;) I kid, I kid.

When did you decide to go into teaching? I would love to be a teacher one day...just not right now.

In comment 11877917 GMANinDC said:

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couldn't afford it and never had a second thought about going..I've seen very successful people not attend college or even wanted to . I have ssen some with 2 majors and still working as a assistant clerk or secretary.. I finally went to college at age 45..just finished my bachelor's a few months ago and have no idea what to do with it.. To me, it's about skill level..That will sometimes trump degrees..

I think your situation was pretty unique though. You probably attended the best "job skills" training program in the world (as long as your MOS is the proper one). That afforded you the ability not only to get some sought-after skill set but also probably made you desirable by employers seeking your experience and skill set.

For you, college degree is now more to meet specific requirements and probably for feeling of personal accomplishments.

I got my EE degree from a private college ~25 years ago. I paid what I could from summer jobs, and my parents paid the rest (thanks mom & dad). I had some fun times, but the male to female ratio (7:1 at the time) sucked. I was an average student, and probably not very mature at the time. I probably would have liked a slightly larger university better.

Also paid my way through night law school. Not as fun, especially when working all day, but it has paid off.

I believe college is important, but from a return on investment standpoint, WHAT you study is far more important than WHERE you study. You also have to have the right attitude. You should have fun (colleges provide a somewhat sheltered environment in which to grow up and make mistakes), but learning is the priority.

I believe a state school (as an in-state resident) will generally have a much better ROI. I don't understand kids in NJ going to the University of Delaware or Maryland instead of Rutgers or TCNJ. If you want to follow your passion in an area that doesn't pay well, do it at an inexpensive state school unless you're independently wealthy.

I also believe that you should try to get your employer to pay for graduate school.

I'm currently paying close to $60K per year for son's college, with my daughter in the pipeline. As long as he takes his studies seriously (which seems to be the case), I don't have a problem paying the bill. (My kids attended public elementary and High School.) I tell them that in life you will have to work hard no matter what, so you might as well be well compensated and/or love your job.

I have become much more intellectually curious as I have gotten older. Online courses are a great way to receive a first class education at a nominal cost, but online courses are probably not viewed favorably by employers since they are might be too easy. I can see that they have the potential to disrupt costly college education, but it will likely not happen too soon.

re: online courses. issue of quality control

But, I am not glad about how I approached college. I was a very bright kid who was always among the smartest in my class (elementary through high school) without having to put in much effort. I went to class every day, studied the night before an exam, and wrote reports on the final weekend. I was not properly prepared for college and I got no direction from anyone close to me. I wish I had more input and guidance back then.

In comment 11878262 jcp56 said:

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I got my EE degree from a private college ~25 years ago. I paid what I could from summer jobs, and my parents paid the rest (thanks mom & dad). I had some fun times, but the male to female ratio (7:1 at the time) sucked.

Let me guess - Clarkson?

I could have written your post verbatim. Guidance was a bare minimum. Took me a couple of attempts at college before I got it right even though I was straight A throughout. High school preparation/guidance was a joke. Parents were old school, so they were less than helpful.

Wish I had worked a few years before hand

In comment 11878112 Bluenatic said:

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We could all learn a thing or two from the poetry of T.S. Eliot.

And out he goes, not with a bang, but a whimper.

That's pretty much it, but you can almost say for that for a lot of the people with prior service experience..

i guess since i work for DoD, the majority i see is ex-military with just on the job training and going to school for the GI Bill..Most i have seen don't even work in their major field..

I made it through college in 4 years, but I definitely didn't get it right. My grades were not always where they should have been. Once I settled in, I did well, but it was a roller coaster for two years. I also think pledging a fraternity was the single worst decision I ever made.

Then there is the lack of guidance. My parents knew I was smart, so they kind of left me alone. They offered no advice or opinion or asked questions about majors, careers, etc. So, I graduated with a History major and Sociology minor with no clue what I wanted to do. Had I been pointed in the right direction, I probably would have been in the business school at Albany, which was very good.

Instead, all I knew about "accounting" was that my father was an accountant and I didn't want to be like him. I knew nothing of CPAs. It wasn't until 2 years later that I found a niche in computer programming and went back to school for that.

In comment 11877690 Peter in Atlanta said:

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you usually need an advanced degree.

See, I was fine with all the responses and there were some very good points and you all sound very education. It shows, but something about Peter's that response irked me. It's not his fault but in order for me, to "reap the benefits" of a course or study, I need to spend or "borrow" more money because the 4-year degree wasn't enough. I need to delve into more (expensive) classes and more money to advance. I guess every major or study has to deal with that. Where is that bottle of ....?

Oh yeah, I did meet my wife at college. I almost Forgot about her, lol.

If you picked something else, you wouldn't need the advanced degree. Most people understand that when they choose a major. 10 minutes on the web searching "biology degree jobs" could have saved you a lot of your current angst.

to become a doctor.

What a scam!

ago, into the worst economic times and worst job market since the depression. Reserve judgement until the job market turns around, and see if your degree is worth it then.

In comment 11878754 GMANinDC said:

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That's pretty much it, but you can almost say for that for a lot of the people with prior service experience.. i guess since i work for DoD, the majority i see is ex-military with just on the job training and going to school for the GI Bill..Most i have seen don't even work in their major field..

I agree. Much of what I've used in my professional career has been learned through OJT (through more mistakes than not along with great mentoring). I would love to say that I've applied my major in my career, but other than critical thinking and writing skills (and even those two skills can be contested by people who know me...ha), I've rarely used it. But then again, I didn't necessarily go to college for my major as much as the school being a means to an end for the career I chose.

In comment 11879251 Pork and Beans said:

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ago, into the worst economic times and worst job market since the depression. Reserve judgement until the job market turns around, and see if your degree is worth it then.

The OP is a troll. The sooner people acknowledge this, the sooner we can ignore his BS and focus on a topic that is actually worth discussing.

and my parents encouraged me to go to school. Why on earth would I go to school for English or Psychology when my biggest strengths in school was Science? You and Wuphat may be right in one sense, but holy fuck that is a lot more money that I do not have for higher education and the burden that I do not want to carry with me until I'm 87 when it's all paid off and I'm still moaning about it.

Plus this was 10 years ago when the economy wasn't in the toilet and I was 18, trusted and heeded to the advise of my counselors and parents.


One of my good friends just graduated med school and she's gonna be in debt a looong time. Is it a scam? Probably not for some people. And others may feel differently, because I sure as fuck did. But hey, there were some good wagers here and it was a good discussion.

a statistics course in college.

But you're a troll, so I wouldn't expect that anyways.

BS degree?

there is very little you can get from college that you can't learn and apply to your life once done with it. However, my opinion on it's validity really is irrelevant as the world requires me to have one in order to be successful (or at the very least strongly encourages I have one).

So could I be just as smart without a degree? Yes. Frankly, without all the distractions, maybe I'd be even smarter.

Would I be as successful as I am now? Absolutely not.

Now, I could have worked harder, gotten better grades, and networked more to ensure getting a higher paid job out of school. But I also could have done that at a much cheaper school.

College does not teach you to be smart. It provides knowledge which is not necessarily smartness. College should teach a person how to best use their innate intelligence, especially in fields such as engineering.

But I always just viewed college as a way to get something beyond college, I.e., a job. I never focused on it improving how I thought. It probably should have been more of a focus but I just fixated on getting the grades and taking the classes needed for the ultimate goal of what was to come after college. I think more kids should have that at the forefront when in college.

That said, college these days is a lot of marketing. As an example, the entire study abroad thing is mostly an enticement for kids, albeit likely for many a worthwhile experience. The kick- ass facilities like workout facilities, etc. are also to attract students.

In comment 11879762 Big Al said:

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College does not teach you to be smart. It provides knowledge which is not necessarily smartness. College should teach a person how to best use their innate intelligence, especially in fields such as engineering.

lol, I had a feeling someone would nitpick the word "Smart"

Just substitute the word educated everywhere that I used smart, OK?

College in effect is a ticket. The better the school, the better your grades, the better the major, then the better your ticket to get something good after college.

increase intelligence, education, or "smartness" on its own.

It provides a set of tools that you can use elsewhere and apply in other, unique, situations.

It provides these tools in a much more structured environment, as well.

and yet people still attempt a discussion with him. As I said on another thread, if you argue with an idiot, there are two idiots arguing.

about your opinion, though.

talking to anyone in particular?

That was well said. In my personal experience, college did not provide that basis of skills, but grad school did.

In comment 11879818 fkap said:

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and yet people still attempt a discussion with him. As I said on another thread, if you argue with an idiot, there are two idiots arguing.

While the OP may be a troll, I think the discussion has move onto become a discussion among the non-troll (or less-trollish) posters. So I'm not sure that people providing their own opinion on this matter are necessarily arguing as much as just imparting opinion based on their own experience with college. Not sure it means that the parties here are idiots...well, beyond the OP, maybe.

no disagreement. I didn't make it obvious that I was referring to the OP (although the same pertains to any thread on any topic).

There is quite a bit of useful dialogue here otherwise.

It depends on the major.

But there's a lot of talking past each other.

1) College can be both required for a middle-class life and be overpriced.

2) I am firm believer that college degrees are signalling devices. That is, they don't provide a lot of economic value through their education but they do through their admissions selectivity. That famous study by Alan Krueger and Stacy Dale I think demonstrated pretty clearly that the purported value of selective colleges sprang from an independent variable (i.e. intelligence - the paper uses SAT scores as a proxy). To my knowledge, the paper hasn't been debunked although if anyone has a real conceptual attack on this conclusion, I certainly would be interested in reading it.

In comment 11879875 fkap said:

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no disagreement. I didn't make it obvious that I was referring to the OP (although the same pertains to any thread on any topic). There is quite a bit of useful dialogue here otherwise.

Cool...no prob. I didn't want you and kicker to have a misunderstanding...:)

In comment 11879796 Some Fan said:

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College in effect is a ticket. The better the school, the better your grades, the better the major, then the better your ticket to get something good after college.

Somefan: Instead of a "ticket", how about calling it a "required upfront fee"?

In comment 11879884 cosmicj said:

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But there's a lot of talking past each other. 1) College can be both required for a middle-class life and be overpriced. 2) I am firm believer that college degrees are signalling devices. That is, they don't provide a lot of economic value through their education but they do through their admissions selectivity. That famous study by Alan Krueger and Stacy Dale I think demonstrated pretty clearly that the purported value of selective colleges sprang from an independent variable (i.e. intelligence - the paper uses SAT scores as a proxy). To my knowledge, the paper hasn't been debunked although if anyone has a real conceptual attack on this conclusion, I certainly would be interested in reading it.

I referenced Dale and Krueger (not by name) earlier, but brought up some misgivings that they (and others) have not addressed (not sure if they can).

1. The total "return" also includes the alumni connections at a school, which are typically much stronger at more selective schools. This won't be captured in the wage analysis, however.

2. SAT scores as a proxy for intelligence has been minimized more recently, simply because it's pretty poor (correlated with race, for instance). So, they observe that school selectivity is important for minority students, but because of using SAT scores, their estimates are biased (i.e., not high enough).

3. They need to also measure earnings growth. It is likely that the tools provided by more selective colleges don't manifest themselves immediately, but manifest themselves later on in life. A lot of studies have found that early wage growth comes from switching jobs often to find the best job. It's hard to incorporate into their story, but it mitigates their findings.

So, while their story is important (selective colleges don't provide better tools; they simply have higher ability students), it tends to minimize the upward mobility of selective colleges for significant sub-groups in the population (blacks, Hispanics, students from less educated backgrounds).

In comment 11877576 kickerpa16 said:

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more selective and higher cost colleges/universities do provide higher lifetime incomes than individuals who go to less selective schools. Though a significant minority of this difference can be controlled for and is due to higher, on average, abilities, these selective degrees have advantages: 1. It's a lucrative signal 2. Alumni connections So, while college costs are out of line with the anticipated returns, it is not nearly as large as people commonly state.

Kicker, can you provide references? I'd like to read the studies. Also, can you you tell me if "higher life-time incomes" exceeds the difference in outlays (which would probably be $120-150K). Also, what fraction of enrollees are we talking about. I would guess that included in the mix are scions who would make higher amounts anyway because of who they are, independent of college.

In comment 11879935 Bill L said:

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In comment 11877576 kickerpa16 said: Quote: more selective and higher cost colleges/universities do provide higher lifetime incomes than individuals who go to less selective schools. Though a significant minority of this difference can be controlled for and is due to higher, on average, abilities, these selective degrees have advantages: 1. It's a lucrative signal 2. Alumni connections So, while college costs are out of line with the anticipated returns, it is not nearly as large as people commonly state. Kicker, can you provide references? I'd like to read the studies. Also, can you you tell me if "higher life-time incomes" exceeds the difference in outlays (which would probably be $120-150K). Also, what fraction of enrollees are we talking about. I would guess that included in the mix are scions who would make higher amounts anyway because of who they are, independent of college.

Dale & Krueger, (2002, 2011).

Willis & Rosen, Education and Self-Selection.

Kane & Rouse, Labor Market Returns to 2 and 4 Year Colleges

Angrist, The Economic Returns to Schooling in the West Bank and Gaza Strip

And what fraction? Studies don't tell you the fraction. They tell you the estimated average, which holds on an ex-ante basis, and depends on the distribution. Assuming normal, it means that it should hold for 67+% of individuals.

And yes, higher lifetime incomes, coupled with the returns to schooling, exceed the outlays and opportunity costs.

Since the outlay is typically not done upfront, but is amortized over the lifetime of the student aid loan, you can compare the increase in the income relative to the counterfactual; what you would have earned without the degree.

That is estimated to be around a 9% difference.