I think Jeter deserves some blame for maybe being a bit too full of himself and putting himself before the team.
That being said, management keeps hitting him 2nd. Management keeps playing him at SS. Management gives him the ridiculous legacy contracts after his prime. Management allows the farewell tour.
tour has left a bad taste in a lot of peoples mouths. The Yankees are mostly to blame for that but the stuff has been so over the top I don't blame people for being annoyed by it. I don't care either way, I like Jeter but never have and never will absolutely love him as everyone knows. I appreciate all he has done for the Yankees and he is definitely a class act but I can definitely do without a lot of this stuff but I blame the Yankees for most of that, not him. All they care about is making a buck. I'll be there Thursday night, taking my mom who might be his biggest fan. Mo and Bernie are still my 2 favorite Yankees by far.
fans of his. I really don't give a shit if it's bothered anyone who isn't, including the growing class of media and internet hipster douches conditioned to hate anything and everything. 95% of people already know he isn't the greatest player ever... thanks for the completely unnecessary newsflash. However, he's one of the 3 best players at his position over the past 100 years. He won 5 titles for one of the most popular and well-known franchises in sports. Is the patch over the top? Absoultely, but I don't think any other part of this is for a player of Jeter's stature.
RE: The farewell tour hasn't annoyed people who are actually Â
fans of his. I really don't give a shit if it's bothered anyone who isn't, including the growing class of media and internet hipster douches conditioned to hate anything and everything. 95% of people already know he isn't the greatest player ever... thanks for the completely unnecessary newsflash. However, he's one of the 3 best players at his position over the past 100 years. He won 5 titles for one of the most popular and well-known franchises in sports. Is the patch over the top? Absoultely, but I don't think any other part of this is for a player of Jeter's stature.
+1000
if I could start a team with any player in history in their Â
Doesn't mean the article isn't a huge waste of time and space.
No one ever claimed that Jeter was the best player ever or even the best Yankee ever. But he is a living legend and one of the best NY athletes to come along. And he's definitely one of the best shortstops ever, if not the best ever.
But you can bet that the Yankees are to blame for all this crap, not Jeter.
Yanks sold out long ago but this shit goes well beyond all that. Christ they are selling off jeter's jerseys in between innings. Why not sell off his pre game dump while they are at it.. Someone would buy it.
That Jeter is the best complete SS ever. When you add up everything he brought to the team it's hard to ignore his value. He wasn't the best hitting SS. Wasn't the best fielding SS. Didn't have the most power or speed. Didn't play the most consecutive games. But overall he might very well be the safest pick at SS. He was the perfect player for this team and era.
And Jeter is certainly in the discussion for greatest SS ever...starting with Wagner, you have to look at Ripken, and yes, Smith. ARod suffers from moving off the position (like Banks), but both likely round out the top 10. Larkin is in the top 10 as well.
Jeter is the greatest baseball player of the past 30 years (perhaps Bonds could give him a run). Olbermann also completely forgets that he is the all-time Yankee hit leader when comparing him to other Yankees.
The man has 5 rings, was the face of an organization (and a sport), let him go out how he wants. Don't chastise him because the organization wants to squeeze every penny out of his image before he's gone.
Jeter's tour, Disneyfied, Steiner-fied and all... Â
is not about baseball's keepers of the sacred flame, who resent ANYONE from this era being talked about with whatever Cooperstown legend at whose altar they worship, nor is about the stat guys who can never get over the fact that he was lauded for his defense when their metrics tell them and us that he was mediocre defensively for much of his career, awful for other parts of it. It's about Yankee fans aged 50 and younger (some older) saying goodbye to their own dynasty and its captain. Yankee fans trying to get one last glimpse at a guy who was bigger than any other sports figure they followed over the last two decades, and maybe (thanks crass marketing fucks) get their hands on a piece of it for a mancave or a son's room.
The next time Olbermann say something worth listening to Â
was not the greatest player of the last 30 years or the best/most complete SS ever (are we forgetting that he was a borderline defensive SS?). Comments like this make Olberman's point -- the celebration of Jeter is totally out of proportion.
All that said, Im not a Yankees fan and I dont really have a problem with the Yankees celebration the crap out of Jeter. The league wide fanboydom is more off putting, but then again Im still trying to figure out why the Mets honored Chipper Jones.
Also, I cant think of Jeter without thinking of that Deadspin piece from earlier this week. Totally ruined the guy to me.
and in terms of batting average for his position, he is an all time great. With that said, Jeter was never a guy that anybody was every scared of, pitched around, or game planned. His game was aesthetically ugly, with the inside out hits to the opposite fields, and probably is not in the top 50 baseball players off all time.
When kids talk about baseball stars 50 years from now, the way my generations (gen x) wished they saw Mantle, Mays, DiMaggio, Williams, etc--I have a hard time believing that people will ever say I wish I saw Derek Jeter play.
if nobody had an issue with Mo's, how can they have one with respect to Jeter. As a Yankee fan, I loved Mo much more than Jeter, but there was no way MO was getting that sendoff and Jeter was not.
Jeter is a great player
Essex : 7:59 am : link : reply
and in terms of batting average for his position, he is an all time great. With that said, Jeter was never a guy that anybody was every scared of, pitched around, or game planned.
Just great stuff right there. Jeter was so bad, teams didn't even care about him. They didn't come up with a gameplan on how they were going to pitch him. They just threw it up there and hoped his ugly swing got out.
Table setters can't be great players? Only 3 and 4 hitters can be great? Jeter is a right handed hitting SS with a 310 lifetime batting average, over 1900 runs scored...I guess there's been many of those in baseball history.
Who exactly, other than some ridiculous fans here and there actually think Jeter is the best Yankee ever? This is nothing more than a rub it in your face article posted by a rub it in your face poster.
year has been a bit over-hyped and heavily marketed by every team he's visited to get more people into the seats and provide greatr exposure for MLB. Nothing wrong with that. It's all about money anyway...and Jeter's own line of memorabilia ain't hurting either. I love capitalism!
So Essex
JoeyBigBlue : 8:15 am : link : reply
Jeter is a right handed hitting SS with a 310 lifetime batting average, over 1900 runs scored...I guess there's been many of those in baseball history.
With 20 years to stat pad, even Chris Woodward could hit those numbers I'm sure.
Jeter is a great player
Essex : 7:59 am : link : reply
and in terms of batting average for his position, he is an all time great. With that said, Jeter was never a guy that anybody was every scared of, pitched around, or game planned.
Just great stuff right there. Jeter was so bad, teams didn't even care about him. They didn't come up with a gameplan on how they were going to pitch him. They just threw it up there and hoped his ugly swing got out.
If you did not get what I say, you know nothing about baseball. Teams don't "throw it up there" to the worst hitter on the team. Everyone has a book and where to pitch them. I thought I was talking to a baseball knowledgeable crowd. The point is that nobody every "pitched around him," avoided him, etc because the next guy was usually better. that matters, a lot, when you talk about ranking players of all time, genius.
If he had played for the Orioles, Blue Jays, Rays, Indians, White Sox, Mariners, Angels, Rangers, Astros, Phillies. Marlins. Expos- Nationals, Brewers, Rockies, D-Backs, Reds & Cardinals, he would have been each team's greatest player of all-time. You better look af his numbers & take a few deep breaths. His net worth vastly exceeds that of Rivera & Bernie Williams. And he didn't hang around for 10 years like Pete Rose slopping out singles to move up on the all-time hit list.
With all of the bullshit with the professional leagues, I, for one, deeply enjoyed this farewell tour. I only wish it could have gone on longer.
Table setters can't be great players? Only 3 and 4 hitters can be great? Jeter is a right handed hitting SS with a 310 lifetime batting average, over 1900 runs scored...I guess there's been many of those in baseball history.
Table setters can be great players and I said he historically for his position in terms of batting average he is a great player. The point, though, and the one Olberman was making was that he is not one of the great players of all time and this farewell tour is acting like Babe Ruth is leaving baseball. And, yes, the 3 and 4 hitters are much more important because they drive in multiple table setters and their impact on the game is greater.
RE: love the Jeter but hated the farewell tour... Â
Sounds like a completely unsupportable statement created to support a point. Meaningless, of course.
I would bet he was pitched around 80% less than a guy like Sheffield was when he was a Yankee. Of course, at some point in the season, Jeter was pitched around (as would be the 8th hitter against a pitcher), but the amount of times that it happens matters a lot. I am a Yankee fan, and like Derek Jeter, never got the love for him, but he is a great ballplayer. I just agree with Olberman, the tour does not fit his mark on the game.
the first 10 years of Arod over any 10 years of Jeter. Let's stop making foolish arguments. Best player of the past 30 years? Come on. Guys like Bonds, Arod, Griffey, Pujols, Henderson, Boggs, and others-- they just don't exist anymore?
The percent of time a hitter was pitched around. Presumably, the higher walk rate would be reflected in a more robust metric which could then be discussed.
around is a stupid fucking way to debate someone's composite ability as a baseball, especially one who derived much of his value from playing the, or one of the hardest and most important positions in the field, and one who derived a lot of value from great base running.
"You know, I have to say. Greg Maddux's fastball just didn't scare anyone."
Also, the really telling statistic of all time greatness Â
is WAR, right? Jeter is certainly an all time great (meaning HOF) in that category, but not an elite WAR guy and according to the JAWS statistic Jeter ranks 12th of all time at SS. Historically, his 71 War is with guys like Palmeiro, Frank Thomas, and Jim Thome. They were not throwing Ruth like farewell tours for guys like that, right?
If he had played for the Orioles, Blue Jays, Rays, Indians, White Sox, Mariners, Angels, Rangers, Astros, Phillies. Marlins. Expos- Nationals, Brewers, Rockies, D-Backs, Reds & Cardinals, he would have been each team's greatest player of all-time. You better look af his numbers & take a few deep breaths. His net worth vastly exceeds that of Rivera & Bernie Williams. And he didn't hang around for 10 years like Pete Rose slopping out singles to move up on the all-time hit list.
With all of the bullshit with the professional leagues, I, for one, deeply enjoyed this farewell tour. I only wish it could have gone on longer.
Jeter played one game with his team eliminated from playoff contention. In twenty f-cking years. Everyone else on the team turned over but him and Mo, and still they won. He hit for average, he was a factor on the bases, he hit with pop and while he was never a particularly good defensive shortstop he fielded the position well enough. The offensive gap between him and generic average or better defensive shortstop is huge. That's why having him in the lineup at a traditionally weak hitting position is such a big deal.
If he had played for the Orioles, Blue Jays, Rays, Indians, White Sox, Mariners, Angels, Rangers, Astros, Phillies. Marlins. Expos- Nationals, Brewers, Rockies, D-Backs, Reds & Cardinals, he would have been each team's greatest player of all-time. You better look af his numbers & take a few deep breaths. His net worth vastly exceeds that of Rivera & Bernie Williams. And he didn't hang around for 10 years like Pete Rose slopping out singles to move up on the all-time hit list.
With all of the bullshit with the professional leagues, I, for one, deeply enjoyed this farewell tour. I only wish it could have gone on longer.
You gotta love it. All you can do is laugh at the hate. Such stupidity.
Good argument. Calling me stupid. You win. Except there's this:
Quote:
According to two historical play-by-play-based systems, Baseball Prospectus’s Fielding Runs Above Average and Baseball-Reference’s Total Zone, Jeter has cost his team more in the field than any other player in history, with both methods assessing the damage at 230 to 260 runs.
If you dont realize that Jeter was a borderline SS then I cant really talk to you. Every conceivable defensive metric backs that up. You may disagree with the stats (you'd be wrong, but whatever), but to call me stupid for recognizing what every non-Yankee fan (and many a Yankee fan) has recognized forever is ridiculous. So fuck off. Link - ( New Window )
ever? That is a ludicrous statement. Stan Musial is that with a bullet. Also, Albert Pujols would be a better Cardinal even if he "only" played 11 seasons with them.
It's these kinds of absurd arguments that help create any backlash.
Jeter played at a high level for 20 years for the toughest franchise to play for in baseball. The guy was the Yankee captain for gosh sakes. Give him his due.
If he had played for the Orioles, Blue Jays, Rays, Indians, White Sox, Mariners, Angels, Rangers, Astros, Phillies. Marlins. Expos- Nationals, Brewers, Rockies, D-Backs, Reds & Cardinals, he would have been each team's greatest player of all-time. You better look af his numbers & take a few deep breaths. His net worth vastly exceeds that of Rivera & Bernie Williams. And he didn't hang around for 10 years like Pete Rose slopping out singles to move up on the all-time hit list.
With all of the bullshit with the professional leagues, I, for one, deeply enjoyed this farewell tour. I only wish it could have gone on longer.
Mike Schmidt would beg to differ.
And Paul Molitor. And Johnny Bench.
Maybe Stan Musial, when he stopped laughing.
And Ken Griffey Jr.
And that is nothing to dismiss jeter because he is an all time great.
The guy is an icon, who cares if he was the best this or that? He is a living legend and to try to pick him apart is pissing into the wind. In a 100 years from now he will be even bigger in baseballs and Yankee lore because that is what time does. Hats off to an icon, move on, he has secured his spot in history
RE: Also, the really telling statistic of all time greatness Â
is WAR, right? Jeter is certainly an all time great (meaning HOF) in that category, but not an elite WAR guy and according to the JAWS statistic Jeter ranks 12th of all time at SS. Historically, his 71 War is with guys like Palmeiro, Frank Thomas, and Jim Thome. They were not throwing Ruth like farewell tours for guys like that, right?
His oWAR is 20th all time, and only 4 of those guys have had careers that were as short or shorter than his. And to knock him for his defense when he played a serviceable shortstop is silly. Frank Thomas loses 4 points on career WAR because of his defense and he was a fucking DH. Jeter, whether he was a great shortstop or not (he wasn't), loses 9. That's a broken metric.
The guy is an icon, who cares if he was the best this or that? He is a living legend and to try to pick him apart is pissing into the wind. In a 100 years from now he will be even bigger in baseballs and Yankee lore because that is what time does. Hats off to an icon, move on, he has secured his spot in history
I think that is the point, though. Some of us, and I am a Yankee fan, think that while he is an HOF great player, that a legend is something above simply being a HOF player and what Jeter accomplished (his defense). I have no reason or want to tear him down, but I do have to say that I always wondered,-- what the extra fuss about Jeter was. But, there will never be an end to this debate. And, again, I say this as a Yankees fan.
it is important to factor in that Jeter's offensive WAR already factors in a huge positional adjustment for his offensive numbers being that of a short stop. So the runs (and therefore wins) he loses for his defense does not indicate a broken metric. Rather, these metrics that consider him to be a career detriment defensively compared to other shortstops are merely balancing out the huge positional bump already given to him in oWAR.
Reds - Johnny Bench, Joe Morgan, Frank Robinson, Barry Larkin
Cardinals - Stan Musial, Rogers Hornsby, Ducky Medwick
Phillies - Mike Schmidt, Steve Carlton
Orioles - Cal Ripken, Frank Robinson, Brooks Robinson
Mariners - Ken Griffey Jr., Edgar Martinez
White Sox - Frank Thomas, Joe Jackson, Eddie Collins, Luke Appling
Indians - Nap Lajoie, Tris Speaker, Bob Feller, Lou Boudreau
Astros - Jeff Bagwell, Craig Biggio
Brewers - Paul Molitor
All of those players were either easily or arguably better than Derek Jeter. Let's stop being silly about this
obviously a great player and a role model. That said, the farewell tour thing does wear me out but whatever. The things people get worked up over...btw, Ive known some very liberal ppl whove worked for/with KO and they said hes the biggest dick theyve ever met.
no one is asking. Does anyone really think Jeter is THE best player ever? A great, great player, probably top 10 all time, but I think even the most ardent Yankee fans wouldn't claim Jeter being the GOAT.
obviously a great player and a role model. That said, the farewell tour thing does wear me out but whatever. The things people get worked up over...btw, Ive known some very liberal ppl whove worked for/with KO and they said hes the biggest dick theyve ever met.
There we go, liberals managed to get on the right side of something! Just kidding....of course...
no one is asking. Does anyone really think Jeter is THE best player ever? A great, great player, probably top 10 all time, but I think even the most ardent Yankee fans wouldn't claim Jeter being the GOAT.
Jeter is not a top 10 player of all time. He would have a hard time being a top 10 player in the last 20 years.
Jeter played one game with his team eliminated from playoff contention. In twenty f-cking years. Everyone else on the team turned over but him and Mo, and still they won. He hit for average, he was a factor on the bases, he hit with pop and while he was never a particularly good defensive shortstop he fielded the position well enough. The offensive gap between him and generic average or better defensive shortstop is huge. That's why having him in the lineup at a traditionally weak hitting position is such a big deal.
I like Jeter, but two things are silly that defenders of his quote. One is this:
"Jeter played one game with his team eliminated from playoff contention"
Jorge Posada played zero. They had good teams, not sure how that specifically defends Jeter.
And the rings. Baseball is probably the sport where individual excellence least impacts game result (in my opinion) than any other sport, so the fact Jeter has 5 rings is a great tribute when evaluating his HOF worthiness or his place among Yankees greats, but when comparing two SS's it doesn't move the needle either way for me, too many other people had to contribute to those rings, not discounting Jeter's own contributions, to make them comparison relevant.
but like I said I like Jeter, and respect his place in history, just those two points strike me as fodder.
no one is asking. Does anyone really think Jeter is THE best player ever? A great, great player, probably top 10 all time, but I think even the most ardent Yankee fans wouldn't claim Jeter being the GOAT.
He is not a top 10 player of all time. Olberman is not asking whether he is a top 10 player of all time, he is asking whether this sendoff, which is fitting of a top 10 player of all time is equal to what Jeter's worth was as a ballplayer. He answers that no, and so do I.
There isn't any way Jeter is a top 10 player of all time Â
I knew I was forgetting a Brewer. Incidentally, I've always felt Jeter would have been a better player if he had eventually moved to the outfield around age 30 like Yount did.
it is important to factor in that Jeter's offensive WAR already factors in a huge positional adjustment for his offensive numbers being that of a short stop. So the runs (and therefore wins) he loses for his defense does not indicate a broken metric. Rather, these metrics that consider him to be a career detriment defensively compared to other shortstops are merely balancing out the huge positional bump already given to him in oWAR.
That actually makes sense, I know there is some accounting for it but in trying to wade through the explanations it isn't obvious how much.
no one is asking. Does anyone really think Jeter is THE best player ever? A great, great player, probably top 10 all time, but I think even the most ardent Yankee fans wouldn't claim Jeter being the GOAT.
He is not a top 10 player of all time. Olberman is not asking whether he is a top 10 player of all time, he is asking whether this sendoff, which is fitting of a top 10 player of all time is equal to what Jeter's worth was as a ballplayer. He answers that no, and so do I.
Where you and Olberman fail in the analysis is ultimately it's a personal assessment of what is fitting in terms of a send off, and that maybe his departure is about something more than simply his place in the record books.
no one is asking. Does anyone really think Jeter is THE best player ever? A great, great player, probably top 10 all time, but I think even the most ardent Yankee fans wouldn't claim Jeter being the GOAT.
Top 10 all time? Saying that Olbermann is building a straw man with the best ever, but then following up with "probably top 10 all time" still illustrates his point. Even if you exclude pitchers, he's not in the vicinity of the top 10. At best, he's the 5th best non-pitching Yankee of all-time.
When kids talk about baseball stars 50 years from now, the way my generations (gen x) wished they saw Mantle, Mays, DiMaggio, Williams, etc--I have a hard time believing that people will ever say I wish I saw Derek Jeter play.
I have to disagree with you. My Dad, who is 95, saw DiMaggio and Mantle and Mays play. A couple of years ago, I was watching a Yankee game with him. And I asked him what it was like to watch guys like that. And he said, 'Well it's like watching Jeter and Mo and Posada. Those are your DiMaggio's and Whitey's and Yogis."
Some will not appreciate the Yankees of the past 20 years until they are old.
Top 5, probably. Wagner, A-Rod and Ripken are pretty clearly the top three IMO. Jeter probably belongs in the four slot, leading a pack that would include Appling, the Wiz and Larkin.
no one is asking. Does anyone really think Jeter is THE best player ever? A great, great player, probably top 10 all time, but I think even the most ardent Yankee fans wouldn't claim Jeter being the GOAT.
He is not a top 10 player of all time. Olberman is not asking whether he is a top 10 player of all time, he is asking whether this sendoff, which is fitting of a top 10 player of all time is equal to what Jeter's worth was as a ballplayer. He answers that no, and so do I.
Cal didn't have quite the same victory lap but he had one, and they're in the same class, Cal with the streak and Jeter with the rings. Chipper Jones too. And Jeter has been the face of baseball's most loved and most hated team, of a dynasty and in some ways the face of the sport for more than a decade.
So Essex
JoeyBigBlue : 8:15 am : link : reply
Jeter is a right handed hitting SS with a 310 lifetime batting average, over 1900 runs scored...I guess there's been many of those in baseball history.
With 20 years to stat pad, even Chris Woodward could hit those numbers I'm sure.
Not BA. You are just jealous because no one cared when Chipper left.
All of those players were either easily or arguably better than Derek Jeter. Let's stop being silly about this
Some of these guys I'd take Jeter over -- Biggio and Edgar in particular. Larkin is an interesting comp since they're the same position. Jeter put up better counting stats (600+ more games) and was possibly a better offensive player. Larkin was not Ozzie Smith but was hands down a better defender than Jeter (who as I noted, was a terrible SS who was kept at the position because he was Derek Jeter, Captain of America, and not because he was the best available SS).
But the point is generally accurate. Jeter is not one of the handful of all time great players -- he's not a Mantle, Ruth etc. Certainly a first ballot hall of famer though.
Of any reasonable top 20 list of position players....DiMaggio isn't in the top 10.
DiMaggio missed three years of his prime because of the war, and if you're going by career WAR (everyone's favorite stat) he is at 41 on Baseball Reference, you have to go down past 100 to get to someone who played in as few seasons as he did, Home Run Baker and Shoeless Joe.
going on a real tear and winning 5 championships in a row now that they got that albatross Jeter off their neck. He was the only thing holding them back, apparently.
going on a real tear and winning 5 championships in a row now that they got that albatross Jeter off their neck. He was the only thing holding them back, apparently.
Everyone just said Jeter was a great player and first ballot HOF. I didnt see anyone saying he stinks.
But many of us do not think he is legendary player which is reserved for guys probably in the top 20-25 of all time.
His peak was phenomenal, but between the war and his injury problems, it was fairly short. He usually missed a decent chunk of games every year which hurt his counting stats.
He also had the misfortune of being a right-handed power hitter in the days when Yankee Stadium ran 462 to left-center.
Fair points on Joe D., but who drops out of the top 10? Â
Between the differences n depth of talent as begrudgingly recognized by guys like James skewing things in different eras and how there simply isn't quality defensive numbers (and never will be, as there isn't footage or documentation to even begin to be charted of so very many games) for the the majority of baseball history, it's really kind of silly how many people try to force it as anything but soft fodder.
Hell, you use fWAR (which you should, at least when talking position players) and in a guy like Jeter's case, you're getting a career where one part is calculated with one defensive stat and the rest with another. How is that a solid, "certain" basis for anything?
DiMaggio won 3 MVPs and finished runner up 2x. Don't forget his hitting streak which lives to this day. He probably didn't always get the most favorable press because he was such a tough guy to like.
Yes, he was injured a lot and missed his 3 prime years to WW2.
RE: Fair points on Joe D., but who drops out of the top 10? Â
Without much thought - Ruth, Mays, Aaron, Musial, Williams, Wagner, Gehrig, Mantle, Foxx, Cobb...probably missing one or two...
Depends if you are going to include Bonds. Maybe Henderson/Schmidt/Hornsby but they are usually considered right on the outside of the top 10. Maybe top 15.
RE: Fair points on Joe D., but who drops out of the top 10? Â
In his youth, he and Mays were the best 2 players in baseball. But his alcoholism and that devastating knee injury really diminished his skills. No question, he is my favorite player of all time.
going on a real tear and winning 5 championships in a row now that they got that albatross Jeter off their neck. He was the only thing holding them back, apparently.
If only there were an undo button for this irrationality. Jeter was a great player, but perhaps no great player benefited more from his situation than Jeter.
going on a real tear and winning 5 championships in a row now that they got that albatross Jeter off their neck. He was the only thing holding them back, apparently.
If only there were an undo button for this irrationality. Jeter was a great player, but perhaps no great player benefited more from his situation than Jeter.
And no one player did more to create that situation than Jeter. Between him and Posada, having premium offensive production at traditionally defense-oriented positions papered over a lot that was wrong with this lineup over the last two decades.
I did get it. I was just amplifying on it. It's interesting because the Yankees managed to replace an awesome player (DiMaggio) with an even better player (Mantle). Too bad Mickey couldn't keep that up.
That's why I say you have to give Jeter tremendous respect for his 20 year career. MLB is very hard. It's grueling. Anyone who has played baseball knows how hard it is.
Even with his alcoholism and injuries, he kept producing to the very end. By 1968 he wasn't the same player, obviously, but he still produced. His triple slash from that season gets tossed out a lot as an example of how far he had fallen (.237/.385/.398), but that ignores the context. 1968 was The Year of the Pitcher. League average was .230/.297/.339. Mantle was STILL 3rd in OPB and 9th in OPS that year!
RE: RE: RE: I really look forward to the Yankees Â
going on a real tear and winning 5 championships in a row now that they got that albatross Jeter off their neck. He was the only thing holding them back, apparently.
If only there were an undo button for this irrationality. Jeter was a great player, but perhaps no great player benefited more from his situation than Jeter.
And no one player did more to create that situation than Jeter. Between him and Posada, having premium offensive production at traditionally defense-oriented positions papered over a lot that was wrong with this lineup over the last two decades.
How many rings do the Yankees win if you replace Jeter with the likes of ARod, Tejada, Nomar, Rollins, Tulo, as your Shortstops. I bet the number is pretty close. Thats how good the Yankees were.
tour has left a bad taste in a lot of peoples mouths. The Yankees are mostly to blame for that but the stuff has been so over the top I don't blame people for being annoyed by it. I don't care either way, I like Jeter but never have and never will absolutely love him as everyone knows. I appreciate all he has done for the Yankees and he is definitely a class act but I can definitely do without a lot of this stuff but I blame the Yankees for most of that, not him. All they care about is making a buck. I'll be there Thursday night, taking my mom who might be his biggest fan. Mo and Bernie are still my 2 favorite Yankees by far.
I devoured all the boxscores and listened/watched all the games I could. I could tell you what he did in his last 10 games..game by game...But he was a broken down player the 2nd half of his career. Watching him run was painful.
who has been with an organization his entire career and has been the face of that team, leading them through multiple titles and you should expect this type of ceremonial goodbye.
Ripken got a lot of love his last year and I don't remember people ranting about it. Well deserved for Jeter, just like it was well deserved for Cal.
With the emphasis on player. What he has done with his toolset is unbelievable. When the stage was set, he performed consistently above expectations, with the focus on winning, not on himself.
He epitomizes everything that is right about sports and baseball, and very little comes close. Baseball doesn't deserve him.
I dont specifically remember whether he did a tour like Jeter, but Rikpen is really a somewhat special case. The 1994-1995 strike REALLY pissed off a lot of fans and sportswriters. Not like the recent NBA, NFL, and NHL strikes, which fans didnt give two shits about once they were done. Ripken's games played record pulled particularly hard on the heartstrings of the sort of fans/writers who were most put off by the strike -- the guardians of the game types. Ripken's approach to the record and then the game where he broke it were a big turning point for MLB's recovery from the strike IMO. People group in the Sosa-McGwire HR race, but that was 3 years later.
With the emphasis on player. What he has done with his toolset is unbelievable. When the stage was set, he performed consistently above expectations, with the focus on winning, not on himself.
He epitomizes everything that is right about sports and baseball, and very little comes close. Baseball doesn't deserve him.
Just so we're clear, this is not how you earn a gift basket.
You guys are comparing jeter's slugging and war and whatever Â
To right fielders and first basemen and third basemen.
Let's compare the positional player with other positional players of the same position.
If you don't think one of the best shortstops of all time isn't one of the best PLAYERS of all time then just stop the debate now. I think one off the very best shortstops ever is also one of the best major league players ever. I'm not putting Barry fucking bonds at shortstop.
How many all time shortstops were "feared"' at the plate? 5?
Jeter is one of the best ever. His combo of skills, leadership, longevity and baseball karma will be tough to replicate at the SS position. You're blind and stubborn and bias if you can't admit that.
sure, except for the fact that he was a mediocre shortstop at best Â
Jeter is the greatest baseball player of the past 30 years (perhaps Bonds could give him a run). Olbermann also completely forgets that he is the all-time Yankee hit leader when comparing him to other Yankees.
The man has 5 rings, was the face of an organization (and a sport), let him go out how he wants. Don't chastise him because the organization wants to squeeze every penny out of his image before he's gone.
"Perhaps" Bonds could give him a run? Huh?
RE: You guys are comparing jeter's slugging and war and whatever Â
To right fielders and first basemen and third basemen.
Let's compare the positional player with other positional players of the same position.
If you don't think one of the best shortstops of all time isn't one of the best PLAYERS of all time then just stop the debate now. I think one off the very best shortstops ever is also one of the best major league players ever. I'm not putting Barry fucking bonds at shortstop.
How many all time shortstops were "feared"' at the plate? 5?
Jeter is one of the best ever. His combo of skills, leadership, longevity and baseball karma will be tough to replicate at the SS position. You're blind and stubborn and bias if you can't admit that.
The problem with that argument is that many guys who played 2B/3B probably could have played SS and have had much bigger impacts on their teams. But SS was looked at primarily as a defensive position until probably the 1990s. Do you think guus like schmidt, brooks, brett, boggs, banks for his career wouldn't be adequate SS? schmidt never played SS cause they had bow a who was a fine SS.
That's absurd. In his prime Jeter was an above average SS that made all the necessary plays and made some brilliant plays in big spots. He was anything but average at best. That's just ridiculous.
..is what a baseball player is supposed to be. You think it is easy to come out and play at a high level every day, put up with the physical and mental toll of playing baseball at the highest level.
Jeter did this for two decades in the nations largest media market playing for its signature pro sports franchise. He is consistently good at all facets of the game. His only weakness I suppose would be going up the middle.
Derek Jeter is without question one of the greatest baseball players to ever live and the fact that he has even cracked into the group of greatest Yankees with Ruth, Gehrig, Joe D, Yogi is a ridiculous accomplishment. I have no doubt I will leave this Earth and not see another Yankee even enter into that group.
It should also be mentioned that Jeter did this all natural. A-rod is a all time great but do we really know if he could have performed year in and year out without the insane amount of PED's this guy took?
Mid to late 90's there was the big three of the new type of SS, A-Rod, Jeter and Nomar. A-Rod is one of the king juicers, Nomar left the Sox and THEN they finally won the big one (plus he was probably juicing too), all the while Jeter is plugging away year after year, game after game just playing at a high level and winning.
Jeter is everything a ballplayer is supposed to be.
A year later, does anyone remember it? Does anyone care? Does it matter? Jeter's tour will soon be forgotten as well - as soon as the first dramatic postseason game is played. This is typical outcry of people who are conditioned to get pissed off about whatever happened five minutes ago. I guess they're already bored with Ray Rice and Adrian Peterson beating the shit out of women and children, and have moved onto Jeter.
There are a few more quality hitting short stops but it's still a position that lends itself to lighter hitting.
Timing is everything but Jeter took advantage. That's all we can go on. In his prime he was the best overall SS in the game or right there. His intangibles only added to the legacy.
you cant double count. The only reason Jeter is in the discussion as a great is that he was a very good hitter for his position. If he was an OF, his career 162 game averages f .310/.377/.440 would be really good but he'd be outclassed by guys like Abreu (.291/.395/.475 with more SB/game)who wont sniff the hall. And I wont revisit the defense issues, but they're relevant here as well.
And only watching about 4 minutes of that asshole windbag Olberman nobody except maybe Posada and a few others thinks he's the best person, player or Yankee ever. Geez it's hyperbole from a friend. And the Yankees and baseball have now done this farewell shit for years to fill seats and sell advertising. A bit uneccessary but not unsurprising sadly.
He may be the smartest because in this age of digital madness and total lack of privacy he's been able to keep his image and personal life basically totally to himself. That's more amazing than 3000 hits.
That Olberman feels the need to say this is shows what a big bag of vinegar and water he is. Like he's jealous. Another reason outside of football games watching ESPN is an utter waste of time.
you cant double count. The only reason Jeter is in the discussion as a great is that he was a very good hitter for his position. If he was an OF, his career 162 game averages f .310/.377/.440 would be really good but he'd be outclassed by guys like Abreu (.291/.395/.475 with more SB/game)who wont sniff the hall. And I wont revisit the defense issues, but they're relevant here as well.
But he wasn't an outfielder!!!! Why are we even bringing that up?
I guess Pedro Martinez wasn't that good a player because he was a shitty hitter.
But he wasn't an outfielder!!!! Why are we even bringing that up?
I guess Pedro Martinez wasn't that good a player because he was a shitty hitter.
You're to one talking about putting Barry Bonds at SS. Maybe I misunderstood your point about Jeter being one of the best players at any position because he was one of the best SSs.
going on a real tear and winning 5 championships in a row now that they got that albatross Jeter off their neck. He was the only thing holding them back, apparently.
If only there were an undo button for this irrationality. Jeter was a great player, but perhaps no great player benefited more from his situation than Jeter.
What was irrational was all the complaints about Jeter the last few years. As if he was what was keeping them from winning. If you want to deny that this went on, fine. But It was horrible. You could not be on a Yankee game thread without hearing it over and over again. Like I said, I hope those whiners have fun complaining about the next guy.
I doubt Schmidt, Boggs or Brett would have been above average as shortstops. They didn't have the build for thh range.
It would be like saying Nettles would have been decent at SS.
Schmidt, especially. The guy was built like a OF, not a SS.
I disagree about Schmidt. For at least the majority of his career, his athleticism was very underrated. His arm was plenty strong. And believe it or not, he was actually the same size as Jeter but maybe an i nch taller. Now I am not saying he would have been a greatdefensive SS, cause you never know unless it happens, but I believe he could have more than held his own as a SS if need be.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I really look forward to the Yankees Â
going on a real tear and winning 5 championships in a row now that they got that albatross Jeter off their neck. He was the only thing holding them back, apparently.
If only there were an undo button for this irrationality. Jeter was a great player, but perhaps no great player benefited more from his situation than Jeter.
And no one player did more to create that situation than Jeter. Between him and Posada, having premium offensive production at traditionally defense-oriented positions papered over a lot that was wrong with this lineup over the last two decades.
How many rings do the Yankees win if you replace Jeter with the likes of ARod, Tejada, Nomar, Rollins, Tulo, as your Shortstops. I bet the number is pretty close. Thats how good the Yankees were.
Disagree. While they may be more talented than Jeter, none of them have the clutch quality he had. Jeter is the whole package. Good fielding, great hitting, great leader and had the personality to fit NY. The others didn't. We've seen how Arod and Nomar flamed out. I'll never forget Nomar sitting on the bench while his whole team was up on their feet during that game where Jeter crashed into the stands. I think he was traded soon after that.
Good stuff...particularly the part about how we know how Â
going on a real tear and winning 5 championships in a row now that they got that albatross Jeter off their neck. He was the only thing holding them back, apparently.
If only there were an undo button for this irrationality. Jeter was a great player, but perhaps no great player benefited more from his situation than Jeter.
And no one player did more to create that situation than Jeter. Between him and Posada, having premium offensive production at traditionally defense-oriented positions papered over a lot that was wrong with this lineup over the last two decades.
How many rings do the Yankees win if you replace Jeter with the likes of ARod, Tejada, Nomar, Rollins, Tulo, as your Shortstops. I bet the number is pretty close. Thats how good the Yankees were.
Disagree. While they may be more talented than Jeter, none of them have the clutch quality he had. Jeter is the whole package. Good fielding, great hitting, great leader and had the personality to fit NY. The others didn't. We've seen how Arod and Nomar flamed out. I'll never forget Nomar sitting on the bench while his whole team was up on their feet during that game where Jeter crashed into the stands. I think he was traded soon after that.
I would put a good chunk of money that the Yankees would have won some WS if Arod (who was a far superior player to Jeter when the Yanks won the last of those 4 WS.) Nomar, Tejada or Rollins were the SS. Those are all HOF are Hall of very good players who would not bring a team down to the point of costing them titles.
And this whole ARod chokes in the postseason thing is one of the most overblown things I have ever read. He his .333 in Seattle, and had some really good series up until the 2010 ALCS where things went down hill. His 2009 performance was unworldly.
Simple as that. The guy has been everything you could have ever wanted as a player for 20 years, but people would rather be on the other side of popular opinion and bash the guy on his way out.
RE: Good stuff...particularly the part about how we know how Â
for 17 and he was hurt for one more. When Tulo can stay on the field consistently for a three or a four year stretch come talk to me. A-Rod is what he is. Nomar hit the skids pretty quickly. Point is we can try to argue what any of them MIGHT have done in a Yankee uniform, but we know what Jeter DID in a Yankee uniform.
1st ballot HOF and a great Yankee, I just don't understand the need to embellish what is a brilliant career by superlatives (top 10 player of all time) that are patently absurd, or projecting hypotheticals about peers.
Fair point about not switching positions when A-rod came. But since A-rod was a jacked-up roider with a future hip condition, it probably was the right thing evevn if it didn't seem that way at the time.
Hero worship? It only appears that way because of the hate around here. I haven't watched a game in years. If he sucks now, well the team sucks so he's not making them any worse.
As far as his fielding, I saw all the defensive metrics years ago and never saw it affect the W/L then, so why criticize now?
Simple as that. The guy has been everything you could have ever wanted as a player for 20 years, but people would rather be on the other side of popular opinion and bash the guy on his way out.
He wasnt everything you could have ever wanted as a player. He didnt hit 40 home runs, and he didnt play defense like Ozzie Smith. Why is it that people who think Jeter is a very deserving HOFer but not one of the handful of immortal MLBers are lumped in as haters and bashers? Why cant we have an honest assessment of his accomplishments and limitations.
Look, Jeter had an amazing career and I wish he had been on my Mets for those 20 years. Great player. But he was never really in the conversation as the best player in the game at any point in his career. Could/should have won one MVP but finished 3rd. I dont see how you can put a guy like that in the pantheon of the top 10 players.
Being a sports fan usually doesn't tell you much about a man. Â
As far as his fielding, I saw all the defensive metrics years ago and never saw it affect the W/L then, so why criticize now?
What is the basis for saying his fielding did not affect W/L? Are you saying that if he was a plus-plus fielder (ie. if he was Ozzie Smith out there) that the Yankees would not have won more games?
Having a clear-eyed view on Derek Jeter's career is "hate"....what a bunch of bullshit. Rob and Mook and I don't hate Jeter, not by any means. We just don't slobber all over him.
BTW, when the Yankees were actually winning those titles, Bernie was the better player. So why don't people constantly kiss his ass like they do with Jeter? I don't know, maybe it's because Bernie never had Jeter's ego.
but his prime was a lot shorter than Jeter and Jeter benefits by being compared to SS instead of OF.
The key thing for Jeter is that he was a great hitter who could play SS credibly. He was usually one of the worst defenders at his position and also usually one of the best hitters at his position.
1) I have not been ahuge fan of the farewell tour, and I said the same for Mo last year. But, chastising Jeter for not being the best player ever is ridiculous. the tour is about honoring a guy who is essentially the face of of baseball for the better part of 2 decades.
2) It's easy to dissect Jeter's career the way Olberman did. But, it is also just as easy to look at his career numbers in hits, runs, SB, etc.
3) Those who say he is the best SS in history are wrong. That discussion should begin and end with Wagner. After him, there are few players who can lineup for a shot at #2. Jeter is one of them, but may fall a little lower depending on who is judging and how.
4) Whoever said the 4 best players in history are the same as the 4 best Yankees is ignoring some all time greats that may be able to stake a claim for the #1 spot, let alone one of the next 4. This list includes Mays, Bonds, Aaron, Williams, and some others.
5) Did he actually compare Randolph to Jeter? I loved Willie, but let's be serious.
6) The worst part about this topic is that a lot of people end up appearing on the wrong side of the argument. If you disagree with Olberman, you are just a Jeter lover. If you agree with anything Olberman said, some of which is factual and/ior statistically proven, then you appear as a hater. The truth is, you can love and appreciate Jeter without slobbering all over him. But, this argument makes that difficult.
Those are the 4 athletes who stand above all others when it comes to marketing/advertising in this country over the past 20 years. Jordan, Tiger, and Peyton are all on the GOAT shortlist in their respective sports. Jeter, not so much. Jeter was put on that pedestal because he was an integral part of a Dynasty, he was playing in NYC, and he was a handsome and likeable guy. He wasn't a once in a generation type of talent like Tiger/MJ/Peyton were.
So he was absolutely overhyped. He was the most popular player in the game for a 20 year span, yet he was probably never the best player in the game for any one of those seasons.
But guess what, he handled that "face of the game" responsibility about as well as any athlete ever could. He was an unbelievable face of the franchise for the Yanks. Some people will say Bernie, others will say Mo, but imo Derek Jeter was the MVP and Leader of the Yanks Dynasty. And in an era where seemingly all of the other major stars had their reputations tarnished due to PEDs allegations and off-the-field issues, Jeter never got in trouble and wrote the book on how to handle being a star in NYC.
Jose Canseco is the biggest money hungry rat in recent American sports history and he was outing everyone he could think of to gain attention, yet he went so far as to say that Jeter never used PEDs and Canseco played on the same team as him. Jeter is the biggest possible fish you could out and Canseco would make the most money from outing Jeter, yet he credited Jeter for being one of the "great, clean players in the sport". And Jeter is such a big name that if had been using PEDs, someone else could've outed him because of how much money that would be worth. That's why Derek Jeter is the least likely MLB player to have used PEDs in that past 20 years imo, because his popularity makes him the biggest target and if he had been using he'd have been caught by now.
Eric Chavez said that he wants to "thank" all the PEDs users like Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, and A-Rod. His argument was that despite those guys being cheaters, they made the rest of the players an incredible amount of money. I'm sure a ton of other players feel the same way. They got PAID because of those PEDs users. Well, Derek Jeter was the Face of the Sport and never got in trouble at all. So Jeter deserves the biggest fucking "thanks" of them all for all he did to maintain the image of the game and help get the rest of the players PAID. That's why I've had no problem at all with this Jeter tour. If there is any player from the past 20 years who deserves to get gifts from the rest of the League, it's Jeter who made more money for the sport than anyone else over that time.
And while I agree that Jeter is overhyped because of the marketing machine, he is still one of the best baseball players in ever.
According to Fangraphs' WAR among position players:
45th best of all-time (1871)
26th best since integration (1947)
16th best of the past 50 years (1965)
5th best of the past 20 years (1995)
5th best statistical player in the regular season of the past 20 years. Top 20 of the past 50 fucking years!
And that's the regular season we're talking about. No individual player has accumulated the career post-season statistics that Derek Jeter has. Most of that has to do with the wild-card era giving Jeter more post-season series to play in. But that doesn't mean we should just ignore the fact that Jeter has the greatest post-season career of any player ever in terms of sheer volume. Jeter's got an entire season's worth of post-season games (158) where he hit .308/.374/.465 compared to his .310/.377/.440 career regular season line. Whereas most players saw their averages dip in the post-season, Derek Jeter maintained his form and arguably even improved.
Top 20 regular season position player of the past 50 years. Greatest post-season resume ever. 5 rings. 3600+ career hits.
The man might not be on that Peyton/Tiger/MJ GOAT candidate level, but he was pretty fucking good...
And if there's ONE thing that the Sabermetric Revolution has taught us about the sport of baseball, it's that Individuals have a very limited impact and can't carry a team. This isn't the NBA where a superstar can make or break a franchise, this isn't the NFL where a great QB can cover up a ton of holes.
I stated earlier that Jeter has the 16th highest WAR of the past 50 years. A-Rod has the 2nd highest WAR of the past 50 years.
Fangraphs' WAR
D.Jeter: 73.7 career --- 4.4 per/162
A-Rod: 111.0 career --- 7.0 per/162
In terms of WAR, the difference between Jeter and A-Rod for their careers is 2.6 games per season.
And this is where "intangibles" do make a difference. A-Rod was worth 2-3 games more than Jeter statistically for his teams. But if you replaced Jeter with A-Rod on the Dynasty Yanks, I think the Yanks would suffer because A-Rod would be a far worse leader and Face of the Franchise. Jeter's ability to handle being the star took so much pressure off of guys like Bernie and Tino and O'Neill. If A-Rod is that face of the franchise, the chemistry on those teams isn't nearly the same. For all the talk about Torre's ability to handle egos, he actually did an absolutely awful job when it came to handling players with big egos. He had no clue how to handle guys like Sheffield, A-Rod, or Matt Kemp. Torre's reputation for being able to handle stars is 100% due to Derek Jeter being the consummate teammate despite being a star. So while A-Rod would provide 2-3 more wins than Jeter in a vacuum, it wouldn't be in a vacuum and A-Rod as the face would create a worse dynamic in the locker room. How many wins does that decrease in Chemistry cost the team? Maybe 2-3. And in the post-season when Chemistry becomes infinitely more important, I'd far rather keep Jeter than have A-Rod in his place.
So A-Rod is a far better individual player than Jeter, yet I'd rather have Jeter as the leader and face of my franchise. A-Rod can carry teams to a greater degree, but I'd be far more wary of him leading my team because of how big of an immature douchebag he has proven himself to be. The NYC media and atmosphere would've torn him apart and there's a 0% chance that A-Rod handles the NYC spotlight as well as Jeter did. That doesn't show up in statistics but it absolutely matters. Intangibles exist and yes, Derek Jeter provides a ton of it.
Jeter is one of the greatest statistical players in the sport's history. Yet his legacy is a lot greater than statistics. He was a tremendous Face to a Dynasty and Face to a Sport. He handled the spotlight as well as anyone has ever handled it. He isn't Mickey Mantle, but he's the best Yankee since Mickey Mantle. The best Yankee of the past 50 years. He was never my favorite Yankee during the Dynasty years but the more time has gone on the more I realize that he was always the most important player on the team. I've grown to appreciate everything he has meant to the franchise and sport and I'm going to miss him.
although closer to Rob's view. In one area where I disagree a bit, because it can't be quantified, is that I find it difficult to compare modern players to all-time players, many of whom played in a different era. My personal opinion, is that the game has gotten much more competitive since the days of DiMaggio as modern coaching is vastly superior. Therefore, to stand out, like Jeter and Ripkin have, for such a long time suggests a "greatness" that transcends the tools we have to analyze them by.
As for Olbermann, he's a disagreeable asshole who makes a living pissing people off - not worth my time and not worth yours either.
You may want to re-think that list of teams. For example, on the Orioles Frank Robinson and Ripken could be considered ahead of him and some may consider Murray or Palmer, as well. On the Reds there are few other players who would be ahead of him as the franchise's best. there may some other players from other teams you listed as well.
Now I'm reading more of the posts and re-read the complete Â
are what make it hard to be involved in this discussion as an educated fan and not incorrectly come off seeming like you don't like Jeter. Someone calls him a top 10 player of all time. any knowledgeable fan has to refute this, but it will come of as hating on Jeter for those with blinders or ignorance of the game.
Jeter might not be a Top 10 player of all-time, but you could argue that he was a Top 10 position player of the past 50 years. 50 years might not be All-Time, but it's still a long ass time.
1) I didn't get to see Mantle play, but I think you would be hard pressed to find a lot of people who know the game that wouldn't rank him somewhere in the top 10 all time. If he hadn't torn up his knee as a rookie because of a vain DiMaggio, he very well may have ended up the very best of all time. That said, he was broken down physically for the second half of his career, but his numbers don't reflect that. He played through an exruciating amount of pain every single day and yet still performed. Some people talk about him as if he is a power hitter of today. The guy was basically a .300 hitter for his career, not the .250 typical power hitter. He was also one of the fastest guys ever to play the game and that's with a bum leg. How many power hitters today would bunt for a hit? Hell, they don't even do it against the shift.
2) As for the argument of athletes in their primes, and who you start a team with I have always leaned towards another guy I never saw play. I would start any team with Mays, who I think could be argued as the best of all time. I'd also "settle" for Ruth or Mantle.
3) the thing about DiMaggio is I think he is very slightly overrated by fans from his era, and underrated by fans who never saw him play but read now about how he was a prick and then use some BS metrics.
I haven't seen Robin Yount mentioned who imho is better than Â
I was a huge Mays fan and hated the Yankees. Mantle was feared as was Mays. However Watching Mantle hit homers from both sides of the plate was just ridiculous
RE: I haven't seen Robin Yount mentioned who imho is better than Â
He will never be confused with the greatest defensive SS of all time. His range to his left is joked about, and rightfully so. But, I always thought his range to his right was good and his arm was a plus. He also had incredible range going back to the OF. He also improved his game later in his career by constantly working on agility, quickness, and positioning. And he has as sure a set of hands as there were in the game. He basically made every play he got to.
Phil in the opinion of the bleacher report he's 4 spots ahead of Â
to list where Jeter ranks from 1995-present considering he was called up in 1995 and his first full season was 1996 and he is retiring this year. No one will argue Jeter's durability or abilty still contribute at points late in his career.
WAR is a compilation statistic and someone good enough and healthy enough to play for this long will eventually have a lot of WAR.
So Jeter is 5th in WAR since 1995. He also happens to rate #1 in games played and #1 in plate appearances (which is aided by playing for a dominant offense the majority of his career). And that #5 position is a monstrous dropoff in WAR from ARod at #1 (200 fewer games) and Bonds #2 (1000 fewer games!).
If you time shift the parameters, and do 1990-2009, Jeter falls to 10th in WAR. And if you change the parameters 5 years in the other direction, from 2000-2014, Jeter ranks 11th in WAR.
Obviously, Jeter is a fantastic player, a Hall of Famer, whose durability and longevity is very impressive in today's era. But when you have someone who played in 20 different seasons, and then use only those 20 seasons worth of stats, of course he is going to be at or near the top, compliation wise.
And as to the idea that the Yankees would be worse with Arod instead of Jeter in NY, I find it an absurd hypothetical. Arod was superior to Jeter in every way on the baseball field. He was a far super hitter, far superior fielder, and a more efficient base stealer. If he were lucky enough to be drafted by the team with the biggest competitive advantage in North American sports instead of Jeter, they would have dominated all the same.
Would they have won 4 rings and 6 pennants from 1996-2003? Perhaps not because the postseason is a crapshoot. Then again, if Jeter and those Yankee teams replayed those postseasons again, they might not repeat it either given the random nature of it all.
It makes me feel worse about Don Mattingly. If his back never gave out, we may have had similar conversations about him. His prime was obviously much shorter, but for the handful of years that he was healthy, I think he was the very best player in the game.
At two different positions, no less. There's definitely an argument to be made for him. Jeter had the more consistent career, but Yount's best seasons were better than Jeter's best.
Having a clear-eyed view on Derek Jeter's career is "hate"....what a bunch of bullshit. Rob and Mook and I don't hate Jeter, not by any means. We just don't slobber all over him.
BTW, when the Yankees were actually winning those titles, Bernie was the better player. So why don't people constantly kiss his ass like they do with Jeter? I don't know, maybe it's because Bernie never had Jeter's ego.
Yes, the only difference between the perception and reception of a deserved first ballot HOFer with crossover appeal's career and a guy who isn't even a fringe HOF candidate that had almost none is the former's ego.
RE: I think Jeter's defense was not as bad as many make it out to be Â
He will never be confused with the greatest defensive SS of all time. His range to his left is joked about, and rightfully so. But, I always thought his range to his right was good and his arm was a plus. He also had incredible range going back to the OF. He also improved his game later in his career by constantly working on agility, quickness, and positioning. And he has as sure a set of hands as there were in the game. He basically made every play he got to.
Jeter is tied for 5th all-time in gold glove awards for a short stop particularly because of his sure-handedness, "jump throw" and because of his hitting which influence voters. Also, many fans have considered Jeter as an excellent defensive short stop over the years.
So I do think that there are many who confuse Jeter's defense. He did handle everything he got to-- he just got to a whole lot less than others.
I think if you replayed those post seaons, there is still a pretty good chance the Yankees would have replicated the results, or come pretty close. In that span, they were always one of the top 2 or 3 teams in either league. some of their best years (1997) they didn't win it all, and others where they were not at their best in the regular season (2000) they did. But, they were consistently an elite team.
RE: Phil in the opinion of the bleacher report he's 4 spots ahead of Â
I'm a huge fan of Robin Yount as I watched him all through the 70's and 80's. Great player who never really put it all together until the 80's. Jeter was a better fielder, base-runner, and hit for higher average. Yount was more of a home run hitter after he moved to the outfield.
As great as Yount was, he never quite lived up to his talent level, which I always thought was all-time.
than just 20 years. So I don't get your beef about that.
And you should realize that individual stars have a limited statistical value on their teams in baseball. It's basically the #1 thing that the sabermetric revolution has taught us.
So yes, I believe that while A-Rod could add 3 wins over Jeter over the course of a regular season... 3 wins can easily be made up in other ways. Jeter took a ton of pressure off of his teammates by being able to handle the NYC media flawlessly. Bernie and Tino never had to answer stupid questions about Jeter. If A-Rod is the face of that team, you bet your ass that the ship doesn't sail as smoothly. So all things being the same A-Rod would add 3 more wins, but all things wouldn't be the same. Unless you think team chemistry has 0 impact on wins, which is ridiculous.
but I'm not sure why we have to call guys the best ever in present time as if to validate their accomplishments. It is what spawns stupid arguments like the one that went on earlier this week with Eli.
Here's what I know - Eli and Jeter are two players who have been lifetime members of teams I follow. Good citizens. Good ambassadors for the game. Solid characters. And winners.
That alone means they will get my respect and my cheers. In sports with a bunch of raving jackasses and attention whores abounding, these two guys go about their business unassuming and with integrity.
Frankly, I could care less if either guy is the 150th best Giant or Yankee - it shouldn't change the respect given for a farewell. I hate the Orioles, but respected Ripken. I never thought he was the best SS or even the best Oriole, but I still loved watching him get the attention for the consecutive games streak.
I'd much rather invest my attention and time towards guys like this than guys like T.O, Deion, Ortiz, A-rod, and others who put themselves above the sport and the team.
I realize the limited value each player brings to a baseball team. I espouse that view every year whenever people want to discuss MVP voting and the ridiclous decisions that many make in that regard.
Chemistry is like clutch and grit. It's there, until it isn't. But mostly, it's just confirmation bias.
if you don't believe that chemistry matters in team sports, I don't know what to tell you. You know how much of a fan of advanced metrics I am and how much I know about them. But I also believe intangibles exist. I do believe in clutch and I do believe in chemistry.
I agree with a lot of what you wrote. I love Jeter and I'm glad he was a Yankee and I think he was great for the sport, and he was a great role model and ambassador and I'd rather celebrate a guy like him than a dirtbag.
But I also love baseball as a sport and the history of the game and I did so before Jeter came along. So when people make ludicrous claims, it distorts the history of the game. And like trademarks and reputations, if you don't protect it, you eventually lose it.
It's a similar reason why I take MVP voting far more seriously than perhaps I should. Making terrible judgments eventually distort the history of the game because of how much MVP, All Star, etc. honors are then used to define players' legacies.
Baseball, because of it's long history and record books is an interesting sport to judge. On one hand, it is the single most statistically judge sport, mainly because the earliest of stats (BA, hits, HR, RBI, runs, SB, ERA, W-L) were long studied, repeated, and revered. The record books in baseball are the holiest of all the major sports.
On the other hand, I think all sports have the intangibles that only true fans and students of the game can judge. there are a lot of people who spout all sorts of stats, including many of the newer metrics, who I believe don't truly know the game, or what to look for in a player.
It is in the latter that Jeter really does set himself apart from many of the stars of his era. Many have been mentioned here. Some poo-poo at terms like clutch, for example. But, take a look at the games brightest stars over history. how many of them replicate, let alone surpass, their career numbers in the post season? not many. Yet, Jeter did and he did it over a very large sample size.
if you don't believe that chemistry matters in team sports, I don't know what to tell you. You know how much of a fan of advanced metrics I am and how much I know about them. But I also believe intangibles exist. I do believe in clutch and I do believe in chemistry.
GREAT POST! Statistics dominate sports analysis but intangibles bring championships. Jeter had the intangibles.
Jeter will end his career with the 6th most hits Â
of anyone in baseball history, while playing the most difficult defensive position other than catcher. Just to put it in perspective, the last time any active player had as many hits as Derek Jeter was when Pete Rose was hanging on trying to catch Ty Cobb (almost 30 years ago).
When a player has these attributes:
--20 years on one team
--Plays shortstop, a glamorous position
--Almost 3500 hits, 6th all time
--Over 1900 runs scored, 9th all time
--All-time postseason statistical leader in almost every offensive category
--Plays in New York
--One of the biggest contributors to five championships
--Never caught using PEDs when most of his contemporaries with better stats used PEDs
--20th all time in offensive WAR
with great chemistry win, or is it that when teams win, they are happy, confident, and thus have great chemistry? And even if chemistry leads to winning, it doesn't mean that it's controllable. The Red Sox of the last handful of years-- great chemistry and grit and that's why they win. Then a similar group of guys go to lockerroom fried chicken eating boozers and are the shame of the town. Then the next year they make a few changes (but have largely the same culture) and they win. And then this year they suck again.
If the reason those Yankee teams won with Jeter is because he brought great chemistry to the team, then why isn't he attributed for the terrible chemistry during the years when the Yankees kept shitting the bed, couldn't scrap together hits, and flamed out in many disappointing postseasons?
And if ARod were such a lockerroom cancer, or if he couldn't have enabled the earlier Yankee teams to win due to his personality, then how does 2009 happen where he is THE guy?
I agree 100% with your post about the history and integrity of the game and the legacies of players. That is why I said in an earlier post that discussions like this make some people look like bad guys. But, I think you have to refute wild claims like best of all time.
I do love the way FatMan articulated his view on respect for players. And to a large degree I agree with him. But, I don't think it is fair to let absurd claims go unchecked.
but over time, Jeter won't be looked at as the best player. He'll be looked at as a Great Yankee Captain. He'll probably also be looked at as a guy who kept some shred of integrity while the majority of his peers were cheats, so that's the face people want to cheer.
I'm fine with that.
I'll never tell my son that Jeter was the best Yankee ever, but I'll tell him he was the one i was most proud of watching. My Dad always said Mantle was the best Yankee in his day, but he enjoyed watching Whitey Ford a lot more.
At two different positions, no less. There's definitely an argument to be made for him. Jeter had the more consistent career, but Yount's best seasons were better than Jeter's best.
Jeters 1999 season was better than any season Robin Yount ever had
The only thing that annoys me though about Jeter's sendoff Â
about chemistry. Confirmation bias is definitely there. nd there are different types of teams that win. The Yanks Dynasty teams were clearly different than the Red Sox teams that won.
Jeter DOES get shit on for being the Captain of the team during the 00's during the title drought. He does get shit for his relationship with A-Rod. He gets plenty of shit for it.
I feel like NYC is just a different animal though because of the size of the media. I feel like Jeter and Torre both being able to handle the media took a load off the rest of the team. I don't see A-Rod being able to handle it nearly as well as Jeter did.
And Jeter was the most consistent player on that 2009 team. A-Rod was the guy in the post-season, but Jeter was the MVP of that team over the course of the year. But it was a team effort.
is his limit to leading the league. For example, he may not have won a batting title. But, he finished in the top 10 ten times. He only led the league in runs once, but he finished in the top 10 twelve times, with more than half of those in the top 5. He led the league in hits twice, but had 12 top 10 finishes. 3 times in the top 10 for triples and 5 times for SB.
Without question, he's one of the all time greats. I just dislike some of the ways he's been handled by the Yankees.
Regarding his defense stats, yes, over the course of they were terrible. Particularly, over his prime when he bulked up a little. You have to remember, these advanced defensive stats weren't widely accepted by the league until past his prime. When asked to work on his lateral agility and positioning he did. He actually put together a plus defensive season in 2009, at the age of 35.
If this flaw was identified earlier in his career, I have no doubt he would have worked hard to correct it.
Yes, the only difference between the perception and reception of a deserved first ballot HOFer with crossover appeal's career and a guy who isn't even a fringe HOF candidate that had almost none is the former's ego.
Don't give a flying fuck about "crossover appeal", whatever the hell that's supposed to be. Bernie's not a Hall of Famer because he was frequently injured and his peak was too short. At his peak he was a better player than Jeter, and he was the most important player on the dynasty teams. You know, those rings that Jeter boosters are always spouting off about?
If by .285ish you mean .293, then sure. He also led the league with 49 doubles, had 20 SB, and hit 23 HRs. I would consider it on par with Jeter's 1999, even if a tad below. the point being, based on stats, you can't toss Yount aside. His BA, OBP, and OPS are a little lower than Jeter's. But, he has 9 more HRs and 100 more RBI. He has more 2Bs and twice as many 3Bs, but less hits, SBs, and runs.
Yount is actually a very good comparison for Jeter.
Jeter didn't have any other seasons that came close to his 1999, either. And I'd argue that 1983 and 1989 were also comparable when you take into account the state of offense in baseball in 1999 versus the '80s.
After that they were pretty damn even, with Jeter's consistency and durability giving him the edge. Jeter tended to be a better hitter than Bernie in the post-season. And then Jeter went on to have an entire decade's worth of success after the Dynasty, including a Championship in '09 where he was the best player on the team over the course of the season.
Bernie is underrated because injuries ruined his longevity. I hate how he is overlooked by the Yanks because of the emphasis on the "Core Four". Bernie was absolutely more important and a greater Yankee than Posada or Pettitte. But that doesn't mean Jeter's role in the Dynasty was overrated. Over the course of the Dynasty Jeter was the MVP imo with Bernie a close 2nd and Mariano 3rd (Mo jumps to #1 in the post-season). But those 3 were clearly the most important pieces and head and shoulders above the rest.
Yes, the only difference between the perception and reception of a deserved first ballot HOFer with crossover appeal's career and a guy who isn't even a fringe HOF candidate that had almost none is the former's ego.
Don't give a flying fuck about "crossover appeal", whatever the hell that's supposed to be. Bernie's not a Hall of Famer because he was frequently injured and his peak was too short. At his peak he was a better player than Jeter, and he was the most important player on the dynasty teams. You know, those rings that Jeter boosters are always spouting off about?
Jeter was massively more marketable in both national and local scales and ended up more popular among the average fans than Bernie was, with his career timed just right to coincide with a young generation's first exposure to winning Yankee baseball. You can not give a fuck about that personally or feel like your man was slighted somehow, but when a player with the better career has all that going for him, the perception of him and the reception his career gets from fans and media is going to be different, grander.
It's pretty common sense, unlike trying to chalk the differences up to merely ego issues.
the issue is he left seven years before Andy and Mo, eight before Jeter. Yankee fans of this vintage still revere Bernie, but his career predated the Yankee dynasty and ended before that fifth ring.
I think you are underestimating Bernie's career. If he could have played a little longer and stayed a little healthier, he is a sure fire HOF. His OBA and SLG are both higher, his peak years were much better, he has 27 more HRs in 4 less seaons, while having only 50 RBI less.
Go back and take a look at Bernie's numbers from 1997 to 2002 and tell me he wasn't the better player. And keep in mind, those numbers are in less than full seasons.
Bernie maintained the power despite the dip in average. But I'd still say Jeter was the better hitter in the post-season, especially after '96 which is what I was referring to. Bernie was clearly better in '96, but Jeter was more valuable over the course of the Dynasty imo.
I was always more of a Bernie fan (and a Mo fan) than a Jeter fan. So much about Jeter seemed calculated as opposed to those guys. They were legitimately humble and unassuming, whereas Jeter always struck me as a guy with a pretty big ego who played at being humble because it got him good press. And yeah, it bugs me that Bernie has frequently been overlooked in all the dynasty years nostalgia that's accompanied the retirements of Mo and Pettitte and Posada and Jeter. Bernie was a big part of the turnaround in the team's fortunes in the '90s. He didn't have the good fortune to arrive on a contender - he had to struggle on the crap teams in 1991 and 1992. He was the cornerstone of rebuilding the Yankees and he generally gets treated like an afterthought.
I understand and disagree. I think Bernie was the best and perhaps most underrated Yankee of the dynasty.
I think the Core Four getting repeated ad nausea over the last few years as the 4 guys were getting close to retirement chafed a lot of Yankee fans older than 30 because Bernie was also a home grown talent and he was, in many eyes, the most important and best Yankee over the span of the dynasty.
Bernie was special to us because he was part of the group that first gave us hope in 1993-95. It'll always break my heart that Donnie didn't get to be a part of the dynasty, but Bernie did. He was the one common link from the bad times to the great times.
I think you are underestimating Bernie's career. If he could have played a little longer and stayed a little healthier, he is a sure fire HOF. His OBA and SLG are both higher, his peak years were much better, he has 27 more HRs in 4 less seaons, while having only 50 RBI less.
Go back and take a look at Bernie's numbers from 1997 to 2002 and tell me he wasn't the better player. And keep in mind, those numbers are in less than full seasons.
I'm not underestimating him or his contributions. He was a very good player, an integral part if championships, but you can't if or but things that never happened either.
He ended up with a career that doesn't even put him in any real fringe HOF debates. That's reality and it's not even a harsh one, as the vast majority of players to ever play the game would have loved to have his reality as theirs.
I went to Paul O'Neill Day at the Stadium this year and was absolutely disgusted when I didn't see Bernie or even hear a mere mention of Bernie from O'Neill.
I totally think he was underrated. I think Jeter/Bernie/Mariano were the 3 most important pieces on those Dynasty teams by far. I really have no problem with any of those 3 guys being considered the MVP. Personally I'd go Jeter for everything he brought to the table, but Mariano's post-season dominance and Bernie's pure hitting ability both give them strong cases.
I really appreciate what Bernie meant for those Dynasty teams, but I just think it's crazy to insinuate that he was head and shoulders more important than Jeter during those years. Jeter was arguably the best player in baseball during the '98-'99 span when the Yanks Dynasty peaked. He should've won the MVP in '99 and he was nearly as good in '98. Jeter was actually underrated during those years because the roided-out HR hitters got all the love.
Jorge Posada is one of the 10-15 greatest hitters at his position Â
but he didn't really have his first great season until 2000. He may have been the MVP of that 2000 team but over the course of the Dynasty he just wasn't on that level.
He was a Great Catcher but I'd take Bernie over Posada if we're just comparing those two. Both guys are in the Hall of Very Good but just short of the Hall of Fame.
Donnie's 1995 ALDS homer - greatest non-title Yankees moment for me. I've probably watched this video a thousand times and I still get goosebumps every time. I've never actually cried tears of joy in my life....except for that moment. Those who didn't live through it can't really know what that felt like, to see Donnie have that moment after all the years of sitting home in October, the years of losing 90+ games, the years of his back betraying him and stealing his power away from him. He had waited 14 years for that moment and he gave it everything he had, bad back or not. O'Neill once said that Mattingly told him before the series that he was going to retire after the season so he would hold nothing back, and in the course of that series his back hurt him so badly that he couldn't even sit on the flight back from Seattle after it was over.
And I'll forever hate the goddamned Mariners and that little fucking weasel Joey Cora who was out of the baseline and should have been called out. Link - ( New Window )
just says how great a player he was. Was he beyond fortunate to play in a Yankee uniform surrounded by talent and get to the playoffs yearly ? He is a blessed man
that was awesome. He skirts the main aspects of Jeter's legacy entirely to support his position, but it was very entertaining.
The media circle-jerks everyone so THEY can make money on the backs of people who actually acheived or strove to achieve something. They have and will always overdo it.
Best SS in Yankees history and top 5 in baseball history. Anyone that says otherwise better have lived over a hundred years and watched baseball throughout.
WAR - wins above replacement?
how about AFE (adjusting for era)? What would Jeter have done if he had taken PEDs? What would Banks have done if he had played in NYC in the 1990s? How long would it have taken MLB to ban Ruth for life for gambling?
So this discussion has inspired me to watch some Bernie Williams highlights on You Tube (surprising lack of some great moments, but still get goosebumps recalling some of the October magic). I always loved Bernie, my first and last genuine favorite player growing up. I agree with most of what has been said here, and I believe Bernie was far more valuable than he gets credit for.
Every catcher who has Posada's HRs, RBIs, and doubles is in the Hall of Fame (or will be when Pudge makes it). It's not a position that one can merely accumulate stats. That's why a catcher with Posada's numbers are exceedingly rare in the history of this sport.
I was at the Stadium for that moment. It is my single favorite live sports moment. My friend and I were literally in the last row of the upper deck and after Mattingly went yard, you truly could feel the entire stadium shaking. The announcer was right when he said hold on to the roof.
That entire series was vintage Mattingly. His new leg kick, thanks to Sierra, had him playing like his old self for the month of September. He really out everything he had left into that stretch run and post season.
and think he deserves some credit for the Yankee run after he left. But, he lost that series by leaving Strawberry on the bench for a really struggling Dion James and leaving Cone in too long.
You know, I never heard O'Neill say that, but I believe it. For a few years, that stretch run had me believing Mattingly could play a little more. I never really thought he knew he was done and laid everything on the line. Then again, he always played all out.
that Jeffrey Maier...Bernie was the one who won it with a monster HR in the 11th. It was one of the most impressive right handed HRs I've ever seen in the stadium.
Jeter was a great Yankee, a great ball player, and a sure HOF guy Â
but he's not the greatest player ever. In fact MLB has been around so long I'm not sure anyone can make that claim. However if I have to try and pick Jeter is not someone that would be up there. I'd say top 100 of alltime, maybe top 50, which is great, but not near the top.
how can anyone have watched these two guys on the same team for all of the years and reached the conclusion that ARod is better then Jeter?
Arod came here at the peak of his career and was about to be handed greatest of all time status. there is just no excuse for what his career turned into and that was before the juiccing came out.
what a joke.
if ARod proved anything about his time here in NY is that he doesnt deserve to carry Jeters jock strap.
spare me the regular season stats and accolades. who cares about a HR blast in 5-2 game in july against the brewers when you cant foul tip a baseball in October?
how can anyone have watched these two guys on the same team for all of the years and reached the conclusion that ARod is better then Jeter?
Arod came here at the peak of his career and was about to be handed greatest of all time status. there is just no excuse for what his career turned into and that was before the juiccing came out.
what a joke.
if ARod proved anything about his time here in NY is that he doesnt deserve to carry Jeters jock strap.
spare me the regular season stats and accolades. who cares about a HR blast in 5-2 game in july against the brewers when you cant foul tip a baseball in October?
aRod wont be getting a farewell tour. believe me.
ARod may be very unlikable, and his reputation is stained, but let's not say absurd things here. Alex Rodriguez was a far better baseball player than Derek Jeter. They hit for similar average and OBP (Jeter higher average, AROd higher OBP), but the power gap between them was astronomical. While Jeter stole more bases (358 to 322), ARod was the more efficient theif.
And when it comes to defense, they weren't even in the same ball park. ARod was widely considered the best DEFENSIVE short stop during his prime (up there with Vizquel and Adam Everett depending which season you are talking about). Jeter is considered by many to have accumulated the most negative fielding at the position (due to how long he played there).
Their postseason lines?
Jeter: .308/.374/.465 for a wRC+ of 121
AROD: .263/.369/.464 for a wRC+ of 119
So for a season's worth of postseason play by Jeter, his offensive production is virtually the same (with more singles compared with ARod's walks) as ARod who has about a half a season of postseason sample size.
And that doesn't even consider that Jeter's postseason sample covers his entire career whereas ARod's sample misses a good number of his prime years because he only made the postseason twice as a regular player before coming to the Yankees in his 11th season.
Again, hate on ARod all you want, but he and Jeter were on completely different levels of production.
And while Arod has been busted for PEDs, I don't see anyone taking guys like Aaron, Schmidt, and Ruth out of the pantheon of elites for using PEDs either.
Celebrate his career for what it was and that's all there is to it.
As far as olberman is concerned, he's a sour old douchebag who can't stand the idea that someone is getting more attention than he is. He's thinks he improves himself by dragging down some one in the current limelight.
Olberman failed spectacularly in his chosen life's work and earned a reputation as a despicable person from those he worked with, nevermind his audience. Here comes Jeter, a class act that olberman could only dream of being, and olberman has to piss on Jeter's parade.
RE: The only thing that annoys me though about Jeter's sendoff Â
Most who follow the Yanks know i was not a huge Jeter fan but i did read in some book somewhere that when Jeter came up the years of media influence on the team given the carte blanche Stenbrenner gave to making the organization politicized and stressful via the media was a deliberate targeted improvement Jeter and others set out to change. The media and the coaches and players who played footsie with the media made it a tough place for the other 20 players and their families. For 20 years pre and post season so about 200 games...Jeter said nothing despite being interviewed before and after and between games. Thats over 8000 interviews in which no matter what the emotion or fatigue or cleverness or annoyance of the questioner..he said really nothing. As an act of discipline to minimize pressure in the locker room of the team that had been a 20 year media circus. That makes him a huge intangible ingredient.
Does that really ease the lockerroom for others? I would think it means other guys will field the same difficult questions in an attempt for the reporters to get an answer. That's not a knock on Jeter; just an observation. He acted that way because it was easier on him or because he felt an obligation to the team and organization not to provide any press worthy information, good or bad. Whatever the reason, it worked for him.
Of course it does. Part of the lessons Mattingly passed on was the need for one good player to "take on" the everyday steady role of answering questions.
One established to reporters on deadline that a fan favorite would steadily answer they go fill space rather than run around trying to pester other players to interrupt their pre or post game routines.
Its out their to read Matt...soon as Steinbrenner was on leave and before Levine the Yankee players got larger inner off limits clubhouse rooms they could hide in and could say things like..."sorry ...I gotta stretch pre game or shower after and get out...but Jeter seems to have a crowd around him.
I did not make it up Matt...I read it...my guess it was a book by Olney or Verducci...but it was in the 90's so beats me....I just found it interesting. What was interesting is that it was a deliberate strategy the inner core of the transition players from Mattingly to Jeter figured out. Tino, Boggs and Posada were a big part of it as they mistrusted the media and the obligations to media a ton.
is this news? Jeter is not Babe Ruth. So. He's a great Â
player and a Hall of Famer. I don't think anyone who knows about baseball would say he's the greatest player of all time but so what? He's been a great player and better citizen. I'm priveleged to have watched him for 20 years and have had him as a role model to my son.
Add it all together—the longevity, the doubles power, his pesky and opportunistic base running, the championships, the selfishness and bad defense, all the projected virtue and vice—and you get something like a lower-grade, non-malignant version of Pete Rose. Baseball Reference calculates that the player whose career most closely resembles Jeter's is Craig Biggio of the Houston Astros.
Biggio retired seven years ago, with 3,060 hits and 1,844 runs scored. Jeter currently has 3,461 and 1,922, respectively, but Biggio had more doubles, home runs, and stolen bases. This year, in his second year on the Hall of Fame ballot, Biggio got 74.8 percent of the vote, missing induction by two votes. He will almost certainly make it next time around; no one really objects to the notion that a player like Craig Biggio belongs in the Hall of Fam
in that they carved out HOF careers as non-power hitters. But Jeter was better, and clearly so. And it becomes a joke of a comparison when you include their post-season performance.
He's closer to Biggio than he is to DiMaggio, and yea I guess that makes him overrated because so many Yanks fans consider him this generation's DiMaggio. But to try and act like him and Biggio had nearly identical careers is just dishonest.
That being said, management keeps hitting him 2nd. Management keeps playing him at SS. Management gives him the ridiculous legacy contracts after his prime. Management allows the farewell tour.
Who's the employee and who is the employer?
not your comment. just now here we go with the backlash
+1000
No one ever claimed that Jeter was the best player ever or even the best Yankee ever. But he is a living legend and one of the best NY athletes to come along. And he's definitely one of the best shortstops ever, if not the best ever.
Yanks sold out long ago but this shit goes well beyond all that. Christ they are selling off jeter's jerseys in between innings. Why not sell off his pre game dump while they are at it.. Someone would buy it.
Arod??? Sure he was the best, before he turned into a broken down a weirdo.
Tell you what you draft Arod and I'll draft Jeter and let's see where each team stands ten years later.
What a jackass.
The same thing
In fact the top 4 players in Yankee history and the best 4 players in badeball history are the same thing
And im not a Yankee fan
Gretzky too
This wasnt invented for Jeter
The man has 5 rings, was the face of an organization (and a sport), let him go out how he wants. Don't chastise him because the organization wants to squeeze every penny out of his image before he's gone.
All that said, Im not a Yankees fan and I dont really have a problem with the Yankees celebration the crap out of Jeter. The league wide fanboydom is more off putting, but then again Im still trying to figure out why the Mets honored Chipper Jones.
Also, I cant think of Jeter without thinking of that Deadspin piece from earlier this week. Totally ruined the guy to me.
When kids talk about baseball stars 50 years from now, the way my generations (gen x) wished they saw Mantle, Mays, DiMaggio, Williams, etc--I have a hard time believing that people will ever say I wish I saw Derek Jeter play.
Jeter is a great player
Essex : 7:59 am : link : reply
and in terms of batting average for his position, he is an all time great. With that said, Jeter was never a guy that anybody was every scared of, pitched around, or game planned.
Just great stuff right there. Jeter was so bad, teams didn't even care about him. They didn't come up with a gameplan on how they were going to pitch him. They just threw it up there and hoped his ugly swing got out.
Who exactly, other than some ridiculous fans here and there actually think Jeter is the best Yankee ever? This is nothing more than a rub it in your face article posted by a rub it in your face poster.
JoeyBigBlue : 8:15 am : link : reply
Jeter is a right handed hitting SS with a 310 lifetime batting average, over 1900 runs scored...I guess there's been many of those in baseball history.
With 20 years to stat pad, even Chris Woodward could hit those numbers I'm sure.
Jeter is a great player
Essex : 7:59 am : link : reply
and in terms of batting average for his position, he is an all time great. With that said, Jeter was never a guy that anybody was every scared of, pitched around, or game planned.
Just great stuff right there. Jeter was so bad, teams didn't even care about him. They didn't come up with a gameplan on how they were going to pitch him. They just threw it up there and hoped his ugly swing got out.
If you did not get what I say, you know nothing about baseball. Teams don't "throw it up there" to the worst hitter on the team. Everyone has a book and where to pitch them. I thought I was talking to a baseball knowledgeable crowd. The point is that nobody every "pitched around him," avoided him, etc because the next guy was usually better. that matters, a lot, when you talk about ranking players of all time, genius.
oh well
oh well
With all of the bullshit with the professional leagues, I, for one, deeply enjoyed this farewell tour. I only wish it could have gone on longer.
Table setters can be great players and I said he historically for his position in terms of batting average he is a great player. The point, though, and the one Olberman was making was that he is not one of the great players of all time and this farewell tour is acting like Babe Ruth is leaving baseball. And, yes, the 3 and 4 hitters are much more important because they drive in multiple table setters and their impact on the game is greater.
oh well
Of course he knew it was going to happen. He signed up for this when he made his announcement in February.
Some of it has been over the top but the dude was a great player and had a great career. He certainly deserves the respect.
I would bet he was pitched around 80% less than a guy like Sheffield was when he was a Yankee. Of course, at some point in the season, Jeter was pitched around (as would be the 8th hitter against a pitcher), but the amount of times that it happens matters a lot. I am a Yankee fan, and like Derek Jeter, never got the love for him, but he is a great ballplayer. I just agree with Olberman, the tour does not fit his mark on the game.
"You know, I have to say. Greg Maddux's fastball just didn't scare anyone."
With all of the bullshit with the professional leagues, I, for one, deeply enjoyed this farewell tour. I only wish it could have gone on longer.
Mike Schmidt would beg to differ.
I have heard many people suggest that Olbermann is the biggest douche of all time.
Quote:
If he had played for the Orioles, Blue Jays, Rays, Indians, White Sox, Mariners, Angels, Rangers, Astros, Phillies. Marlins. Expos- Nationals, Brewers, Rockies, D-Backs, Reds & Cardinals, he would have been each team's greatest player of all-time. You better look af his numbers & take a few deep breaths. His net worth vastly exceeds that of Rivera & Bernie Williams. And he didn't hang around for 10 years like Pete Rose slopping out singles to move up on the all-time hit list.
With all of the bullshit with the professional leagues, I, for one, deeply enjoyed this farewell tour. I only wish it could have gone on longer.
Mike Schmidt would beg to differ.
And Paul Molitor. And Johnny Bench.
Maybe Stan Musial, when he stopped laughing.
Good argument. Calling me stupid. You win. Except there's this:
If you dont realize that Jeter was a borderline SS then I cant really talk to you. Every conceivable defensive metric backs that up. You may disagree with the stats (you'd be wrong, but whatever), but to call me stupid for recognizing what every non-Yankee fan (and many a Yankee fan) has recognized forever is ridiculous. So fuck off.
Link - ( New Window )
It's these kinds of absurd arguments that help create any backlash.
Quote:
In comment 11879269 RetroJint said:
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If he had played for the Orioles, Blue Jays, Rays, Indians, White Sox, Mariners, Angels, Rangers, Astros, Phillies. Marlins. Expos- Nationals, Brewers, Rockies, D-Backs, Reds & Cardinals, he would have been each team's greatest player of all-time. You better look af his numbers & take a few deep breaths. His net worth vastly exceeds that of Rivera & Bernie Williams. And he didn't hang around for 10 years like Pete Rose slopping out singles to move up on the all-time hit list.
With all of the bullshit with the professional leagues, I, for one, deeply enjoyed this farewell tour. I only wish it could have gone on longer.
Mike Schmidt would beg to differ.
And Paul Molitor. And Johnny Bench.
Maybe Stan Musial, when he stopped laughing.
And Ken Griffey Jr.
And that is nothing to dismiss jeter because he is an all time great.
His oWAR is 20th all time, and only 4 of those guys have had careers that were as short or shorter than his. And to knock him for his defense when he played a serviceable shortstop is silly. Frank Thomas loses 4 points on career WAR because of his defense and he was a fucking DH. Jeter, whether he was a great shortstop or not (he wasn't), loses 9. That's a broken metric.
And he's been getting his due and then some since 1996. THere's nothing wrong with not wanting to whitewash his career.
I think that is the point, though. Some of us, and I am a Yankee fan, think that while he is an HOF great player, that a legend is something above simply being a HOF player and what Jeter accomplished (his defense). I have no reason or want to tear him down, but I do have to say that I always wondered,-- what the extra fuss about Jeter was. But, there will never be an end to this debate. And, again, I say this as a Yankees fan.
Who argued he wouldn't get in on the first ballot?
Cardinals - Stan Musial, Rogers Hornsby, Ducky Medwick
Phillies - Mike Schmidt, Steve Carlton
Orioles - Cal Ripken, Frank Robinson, Brooks Robinson
Mariners - Ken Griffey Jr., Edgar Martinez
White Sox - Frank Thomas, Joe Jackson, Eddie Collins, Luke Appling
Indians - Nap Lajoie, Tris Speaker, Bob Feller, Lou Boudreau
Astros - Jeff Bagwell, Craig Biggio
Brewers - Paul Molitor
All of those players were either easily or arguably better than Derek Jeter. Let's stop being silly about this
There we go, liberals managed to get on the right side of something! Just kidding....of course...
Jeter is not a top 10 player of all time. He would have a hard time being a top 10 player in the last 20 years.
I like Jeter, but two things are silly that defenders of his quote. One is this:
"Jeter played one game with his team eliminated from playoff contention"
Jorge Posada played zero. They had good teams, not sure how that specifically defends Jeter.
And the rings. Baseball is probably the sport where individual excellence least impacts game result (in my opinion) than any other sport, so the fact Jeter has 5 rings is a great tribute when evaluating his HOF worthiness or his place among Yankees greats, but when comparing two SS's it doesn't move the needle either way for me, too many other people had to contribute to those rings, not discounting Jeter's own contributions, to make them comparison relevant.
but like I said I like Jeter, and respect his place in history, just those two points strike me as fodder.
He is not a top 10 player of all time. Olberman is not asking whether he is a top 10 player of all time, he is asking whether this sendoff, which is fitting of a top 10 player of all time is equal to what Jeter's worth was as a ballplayer. He answers that no, and so do I.
I knew I was forgetting a Brewer. Incidentally, I've always felt Jeter would have been a better player if he had eventually moved to the outfield around age 30 like Yount did.
That actually makes sense, I know there is some accounting for it but in trying to wade through the explanations it isn't obvious how much.
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no one is asking. Does anyone really think Jeter is THE best player ever? A great, great player, probably top 10 all time, but I think even the most ardent Yankee fans wouldn't claim Jeter being the GOAT.
He is not a top 10 player of all time. Olberman is not asking whether he is a top 10 player of all time, he is asking whether this sendoff, which is fitting of a top 10 player of all time is equal to what Jeter's worth was as a ballplayer. He answers that no, and so do I.
Where you and Olberman fail in the analysis is ultimately it's a personal assessment of what is fitting in terms of a send off, and that maybe his departure is about something more than simply his place in the record books.
Top 10 all time? Saying that Olbermann is building a straw man with the best ever, but then following up with "probably top 10 all time" still illustrates his point. Even if you exclude pitchers, he's not in the vicinity of the top 10. At best, he's the 5th best non-pitching Yankee of all-time.
When kids talk about baseball stars 50 years from now, the way my generations (gen x) wished they saw Mantle, Mays, DiMaggio, Williams, etc--I have a hard time believing that people will ever say I wish I saw Derek Jeter play.
I have to disagree with you. My Dad, who is 95, saw DiMaggio and Mantle and Mays play. A couple of years ago, I was watching a Yankee game with him. And I asked him what it was like to watch guys like that. And he said, 'Well it's like watching Jeter and Mo and Posada. Those are your DiMaggio's and Whitey's and Yogis."
Some will not appreciate the Yankees of the past 20 years until they are old.
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no one is asking. Does anyone really think Jeter is THE best player ever? A great, great player, probably top 10 all time, but I think even the most ardent Yankee fans wouldn't claim Jeter being the GOAT.
He is not a top 10 player of all time. Olberman is not asking whether he is a top 10 player of all time, he is asking whether this sendoff, which is fitting of a top 10 player of all time is equal to what Jeter's worth was as a ballplayer. He answers that no, and so do I.
Cal didn't have quite the same victory lap but he had one, and they're in the same class, Cal with the streak and Jeter with the rings. Chipper Jones too. And Jeter has been the face of baseball's most loved and most hated team, of a dynasty and in some ways the face of the sport for more than a decade.
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So Essex
JoeyBigBlue : 8:15 am : link : reply
Jeter is a right handed hitting SS with a 310 lifetime batting average, over 1900 runs scored...I guess there's been many of those in baseball history.
With 20 years to stat pad, even Chris Woodward could hit those numbers I'm sure.
Not BA. You are just jealous because no one cared when Chipper left.
All of those players were either easily or arguably better than Derek Jeter. Let's stop being silly about this
Some of these guys I'd take Jeter over -- Biggio and Edgar in particular. Larkin is an interesting comp since they're the same position. Jeter put up better counting stats (600+ more games) and was possibly a better offensive player. Larkin was not Ozzie Smith but was hands down a better defender than Jeter (who as I noted, was a terrible SS who was kept at the position because he was Derek Jeter, Captain of America, and not because he was the best available SS).
But the point is generally accurate. Jeter is not one of the handful of all time great players -- he's not a Mantle, Ruth etc. Certainly a first ballot hall of famer though.
DiMaggio missed three years of his prime because of the war, and if you're going by career WAR (everyone's favorite stat) he is at 41 on Baseball Reference, you have to go down past 100 to get to someone who played in as few seasons as he did, Home Run Baker and Shoeless Joe.
Everyone just said Jeter was a great player and first ballot HOF. I didnt see anyone saying he stinks.
But many of us do not think he is legendary player which is reserved for guys probably in the top 20-25 of all time.
He also had the misfortune of being a right-handed power hitter in the days when Yankee Stadium ran 462 to left-center.
Hell, you use fWAR (which you should, at least when talking position players) and in a guy like Jeter's case, you're getting a career where one part is calculated with one defensive stat and the rest with another. How is that a solid, "certain" basis for anything?
Yes, he was injured a lot and missed his 3 prime years to WW2.
Depends if you are going to include Bonds. Maybe Henderson/Schmidt/Hornsby but they are usually considered right on the outside of the top 10. Maybe top 15.
Yogi is underrated too, his prime was shortened by the war but he was phenomenal in his prime. 7 top 4 finishes in MVP voting in 7 years, with 3 wins.
If only there were an undo button for this irrationality. Jeter was a great player, but perhaps no great player benefited more from his situation than Jeter.
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going on a real tear and winning 5 championships in a row now that they got that albatross Jeter off their neck. He was the only thing holding them back, apparently.
If only there were an undo button for this irrationality. Jeter was a great player, but perhaps no great player benefited more from his situation than Jeter.
And no one player did more to create that situation than Jeter. Between him and Posada, having premium offensive production at traditionally defense-oriented positions papered over a lot that was wrong with this lineup over the last two decades.
That's why I say you have to give Jeter tremendous respect for his 20 year career. MLB is very hard. It's grueling. Anyone who has played baseball knows how hard it is.
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In comment 11879382 buford said:
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going on a real tear and winning 5 championships in a row now that they got that albatross Jeter off their neck. He was the only thing holding them back, apparently.
If only there were an undo button for this irrationality. Jeter was a great player, but perhaps no great player benefited more from his situation than Jeter.
And no one player did more to create that situation than Jeter. Between him and Posada, having premium offensive production at traditionally defense-oriented positions papered over a lot that was wrong with this lineup over the last two decades.
How many rings do the Yankees win if you replace Jeter with the likes of ARod, Tejada, Nomar, Rollins, Tulo, as your Shortstops. I bet the number is pretty close. Thats how good the Yankees were.
+1000
But Paul & Mo are my 2 favorites.
Ripken got a lot of love his last year and I don't remember people ranting about it. Well deserved for Jeter, just like it was well deserved for Cal.
He epitomizes everything that is right about sports and baseball, and very little comes close. Baseball doesn't deserve him.
When the Yankees traded for A-Rod, who switched positions? It wasn't Jeter, even though he was clearly the inferior shortstop.
He epitomizes everything that is right about sports and baseball, and very little comes close. Baseball doesn't deserve him.
Just so we're clear, this is not how you earn a gift basket.
Let's compare the positional player with other positional players of the same position.
If you don't think one of the best shortstops of all time isn't one of the best PLAYERS of all time then just stop the debate now. I think one off the very best shortstops ever is also one of the best major league players ever. I'm not putting Barry fucking bonds at shortstop.
How many all time shortstops were "feared"' at the plate? 5?
Jeter is one of the best ever. His combo of skills, leadership, longevity and baseball karma will be tough to replicate at the SS position. You're blind and stubborn and bias if you can't admit that.
The man has 5 rings, was the face of an organization (and a sport), let him go out how he wants. Don't chastise him because the organization wants to squeeze every penny out of his image before he's gone.
"Perhaps" Bonds could give him a run? Huh?
Let's compare the positional player with other positional players of the same position.
If you don't think one of the best shortstops of all time isn't one of the best PLAYERS of all time then just stop the debate now. I think one off the very best shortstops ever is also one of the best major league players ever. I'm not putting Barry fucking bonds at shortstop.
How many all time shortstops were "feared"' at the plate? 5?
Jeter is one of the best ever. His combo of skills, leadership, longevity and baseball karma will be tough to replicate at the SS position. You're blind and stubborn and bias if you can't admit that.
The problem with that argument is that many guys who played 2B/3B probably could have played SS and have had much bigger impacts on their teams. But SS was looked at primarily as a defensive position until probably the 1990s. Do you think guus like schmidt, brooks, brett, boggs, banks for his career wouldn't be adequate SS? schmidt never played SS cause they had bow a who was a fine SS.
Jeter did this for two decades in the nations largest media market playing for its signature pro sports franchise. He is consistently good at all facets of the game. His only weakness I suppose would be going up the middle.
Derek Jeter is without question one of the greatest baseball players to ever live and the fact that he has even cracked into the group of greatest Yankees with Ruth, Gehrig, Joe D, Yogi is a ridiculous accomplishment. I have no doubt I will leave this Earth and not see another Yankee even enter into that group.
It should also be mentioned that Jeter did this all natural. A-rod is a all time great but do we really know if he could have performed year in and year out without the insane amount of PED's this guy took?
Mid to late 90's there was the big three of the new type of SS, A-Rod, Jeter and Nomar. A-Rod is one of the king juicers, Nomar left the Sox and THEN they finally won the big one (plus he was probably juicing too), all the while Jeter is plugging away year after year, game after game just playing at a high level and winning.
Jeter is everything a ballplayer is supposed to be.
Timing is everything but Jeter took advantage. That's all we can go on. In his prime he was the best overall SS in the game or right there. His intangibles only added to the legacy.
He may be the smartest because in this age of digital madness and total lack of privacy he's been able to keep his image and personal life basically totally to himself. That's more amazing than 3000 hits.
That Olberman feels the need to say this is shows what a big bag of vinegar and water he is. Like he's jealous. Another reason outside of football games watching ESPN is an utter waste of time.
It would be like saying Nettles would have been decent at SS.
Schmidt, especially. The guy was built like a OF, not a SS.
But he wasn't an outfielder!!!! Why are we even bringing that up?
I guess Pedro Martinez wasn't that good a player because he was a shitty hitter.
But he wasn't an outfielder!!!! Why are we even bringing that up?
I guess Pedro Martinez wasn't that good a player because he was a shitty hitter.
You're to one talking about putting Barry Bonds at SS. Maybe I misunderstood your point about Jeter being one of the best players at any position because he was one of the best SSs.
Everyone just said Jeter was a great player and first ballot HOF. I didnt see anyone saying he stinks.
But many of us do not think he is legendary player which is reserved for guys probably in the top 20-25 of all time.
First off, not everyone said it. And I'm not just going by this thread, but the years of Jeter hate.
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going on a real tear and winning 5 championships in a row now that they got that albatross Jeter off their neck. He was the only thing holding them back, apparently.
If only there were an undo button for this irrationality. Jeter was a great player, but perhaps no great player benefited more from his situation than Jeter.
What was irrational was all the complaints about Jeter the last few years. As if he was what was keeping them from winning. If you want to deny that this went on, fine. But It was horrible. You could not be on a Yankee game thread without hearing it over and over again. Like I said, I hope those whiners have fun complaining about the next guy.
It would be like saying Nettles would have been decent at SS.
Schmidt, especially. The guy was built like a OF, not a SS.
I disagree about Schmidt. For at least the majority of his career, his athleticism was very underrated. His arm was plenty strong. And believe it or not, he was actually the same size as Jeter but maybe an i nch taller. Now I am not saying he would have been a greatdefensive SS, cause you never know unless it happens, but I believe he could have more than held his own as a SS if need be.
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In comment 11879436 PaulBlakeTSU said:
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In comment 11879382 buford said:
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going on a real tear and winning 5 championships in a row now that they got that albatross Jeter off their neck. He was the only thing holding them back, apparently.
If only there were an undo button for this irrationality. Jeter was a great player, but perhaps no great player benefited more from his situation than Jeter.
And no one player did more to create that situation than Jeter. Between him and Posada, having premium offensive production at traditionally defense-oriented positions papered over a lot that was wrong with this lineup over the last two decades.
How many rings do the Yankees win if you replace Jeter with the likes of ARod, Tejada, Nomar, Rollins, Tulo, as your Shortstops. I bet the number is pretty close. Thats how good the Yankees were.
Disagree. While they may be more talented than Jeter, none of them have the clutch quality he had. Jeter is the whole package. Good fielding, great hitting, great leader and had the personality to fit NY. The others didn't. We've seen how Arod and Nomar flamed out. I'll never forget Nomar sitting on the bench while his whole team was up on their feet during that game where Jeter crashed into the stands. I think he was traded soon after that.
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In comment 11879441 Dunedin81 said:
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In comment 11879436 PaulBlakeTSU said:
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In comment 11879382 buford said:
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going on a real tear and winning 5 championships in a row now that they got that albatross Jeter off their neck. He was the only thing holding them back, apparently.
If only there were an undo button for this irrationality. Jeter was a great player, but perhaps no great player benefited more from his situation than Jeter.
And no one player did more to create that situation than Jeter. Between him and Posada, having premium offensive production at traditionally defense-oriented positions papered over a lot that was wrong with this lineup over the last two decades.
How many rings do the Yankees win if you replace Jeter with the likes of ARod, Tejada, Nomar, Rollins, Tulo, as your Shortstops. I bet the number is pretty close. Thats how good the Yankees were.
Disagree. While they may be more talented than Jeter, none of them have the clutch quality he had. Jeter is the whole package. Good fielding, great hitting, great leader and had the personality to fit NY. The others didn't. We've seen how Arod and Nomar flamed out. I'll never forget Nomar sitting on the bench while his whole team was up on their feet during that game where Jeter crashed into the stands. I think he was traded soon after that.
I would put a good chunk of money that the Yankees would have won some WS if Arod (who was a far superior player to Jeter when the Yanks won the last of those 4 WS.) Nomar, Tejada or Rollins were the SS. Those are all HOF are Hall of very good players who would not bring a team down to the point of costing them titles.
And this whole ARod chokes in the postseason thing is one of the most overblown things I have ever read. He his .333 in Seattle, and had some really good series up until the 2010 ALCS where things went down hill. His 2009 performance was unworldly.
Yeah because playing in Boston and Philly is like playing in like Monatana haha.
Nomar hit over .320 in his playoff career. So that correlates to like .220 if he played in New York, I suppose.
Hero worship? It only appears that way because of the hate around here. I haven't watched a game in years. If he sucks now, well the team sucks so he's not making them any worse.
As far as his fielding, I saw all the defensive metrics years ago and never saw it affect the W/L then, so why criticize now?
He wasnt everything you could have ever wanted as a player. He didnt hit 40 home runs, and he didnt play defense like Ozzie Smith. Why is it that people who think Jeter is a very deserving HOFer but not one of the handful of immortal MLBers are lumped in as haters and bashers? Why cant we have an honest assessment of his accomplishments and limitations.
Look, Jeter had an amazing career and I wish he had been on my Mets for those 20 years. Great player. But he was never really in the conversation as the best player in the game at any point in his career. Could/should have won one MVP but finished 3rd. I dont see how you can put a guy like that in the pantheon of the top 10 players.
What is the basis for saying his fielding did not affect W/L? Are you saying that if he was a plus-plus fielder (ie. if he was Ozzie Smith out there) that the Yankees would not have won more games?
BTW, when the Yankees were actually winning those titles, Bernie was the better player. So why don't people constantly kiss his ass like they do with Jeter? I don't know, maybe it's because Bernie never had Jeter's ego.
The key thing for Jeter is that he was a great hitter who could play SS credibly. He was usually one of the worst defenders at his position and also usually one of the best hitters at his position.
2) It's easy to dissect Jeter's career the way Olberman did. But, it is also just as easy to look at his career numbers in hits, runs, SB, etc.
3) Those who say he is the best SS in history are wrong. That discussion should begin and end with Wagner. After him, there are few players who can lineup for a shot at #2. Jeter is one of them, but may fall a little lower depending on who is judging and how.
4) Whoever said the 4 best players in history are the same as the 4 best Yankees is ignoring some all time greats that may be able to stake a claim for the #1 spot, let alone one of the next 4. This list includes Mays, Bonds, Aaron, Williams, and some others.
5) Did he actually compare Randolph to Jeter? I loved Willie, but let's be serious.
6) The worst part about this topic is that a lot of people end up appearing on the wrong side of the argument. If you disagree with Olberman, you are just a Jeter lover. If you agree with anything Olberman said, some of which is factual and/ior statistically proven, then you appear as a hater. The truth is, you can love and appreciate Jeter without slobbering all over him. But, this argument makes that difficult.
Jordan
Tiger
Jeter
Peyton
Those are the 4 athletes who stand above all others when it comes to marketing/advertising in this country over the past 20 years. Jordan, Tiger, and Peyton are all on the GOAT shortlist in their respective sports. Jeter, not so much. Jeter was put on that pedestal because he was an integral part of a Dynasty, he was playing in NYC, and he was a handsome and likeable guy. He wasn't a once in a generation type of talent like Tiger/MJ/Peyton were.
So he was absolutely overhyped. He was the most popular player in the game for a 20 year span, yet he was probably never the best player in the game for any one of those seasons.
But guess what, he handled that "face of the game" responsibility about as well as any athlete ever could. He was an unbelievable face of the franchise for the Yanks. Some people will say Bernie, others will say Mo, but imo Derek Jeter was the MVP and Leader of the Yanks Dynasty. And in an era where seemingly all of the other major stars had their reputations tarnished due to PEDs allegations and off-the-field issues, Jeter never got in trouble and wrote the book on how to handle being a star in NYC.
Jose Canseco is the biggest money hungry rat in recent American sports history and he was outing everyone he could think of to gain attention, yet he went so far as to say that Jeter never used PEDs and Canseco played on the same team as him. Jeter is the biggest possible fish you could out and Canseco would make the most money from outing Jeter, yet he credited Jeter for being one of the "great, clean players in the sport". And Jeter is such a big name that if had been using PEDs, someone else could've outed him because of how much money that would be worth. That's why Derek Jeter is the least likely MLB player to have used PEDs in that past 20 years imo, because his popularity makes him the biggest target and if he had been using he'd have been caught by now.
Eric Chavez said that he wants to "thank" all the PEDs users like Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, and A-Rod. His argument was that despite those guys being cheaters, they made the rest of the players an incredible amount of money. I'm sure a ton of other players feel the same way. They got PAID because of those PEDs users. Well, Derek Jeter was the Face of the Sport and never got in trouble at all. So Jeter deserves the biggest fucking "thanks" of them all for all he did to maintain the image of the game and help get the rest of the players PAID. That's why I've had no problem at all with this Jeter tour. If there is any player from the past 20 years who deserves to get gifts from the rest of the League, it's Jeter who made more money for the sport than anyone else over that time.
And while I agree that Jeter is overhyped because of the marketing machine, he is still one of the best baseball players in ever.
According to Fangraphs' WAR among position players:
45th best of all-time (1871)
26th best since integration (1947)
16th best of the past 50 years (1965)
5th best of the past 20 years (1995)
5th best statistical player in the regular season of the past 20 years. Top 20 of the past 50 fucking years!
And that's the regular season we're talking about. No individual player has accumulated the career post-season statistics that Derek Jeter has. Most of that has to do with the wild-card era giving Jeter more post-season series to play in. But that doesn't mean we should just ignore the fact that Jeter has the greatest post-season career of any player ever in terms of sheer volume. Jeter's got an entire season's worth of post-season games (158) where he hit .308/.374/.465 compared to his .310/.377/.440 career regular season line. Whereas most players saw their averages dip in the post-season, Derek Jeter maintained his form and arguably even improved.
Top 20 regular season position player of the past 50 years. Greatest post-season resume ever. 5 rings. 3600+ career hits.
The man might not be on that Peyton/Tiger/MJ GOAT candidate level, but he was pretty fucking good...
And if there's ONE thing that the Sabermetric Revolution has taught us about the sport of baseball, it's that Individuals have a very limited impact and can't carry a team. This isn't the NBA where a superstar can make or break a franchise, this isn't the NFL where a great QB can cover up a ton of holes.
I stated earlier that Jeter has the 16th highest WAR of the past 50 years. A-Rod has the 2nd highest WAR of the past 50 years.
Fangraphs' WAR
D.Jeter: 73.7 career --- 4.4 per/162
A-Rod: 111.0 career --- 7.0 per/162
In terms of WAR, the difference between Jeter and A-Rod for their careers is 2.6 games per season.
And this is where "intangibles" do make a difference. A-Rod was worth 2-3 games more than Jeter statistically for his teams. But if you replaced Jeter with A-Rod on the Dynasty Yanks, I think the Yanks would suffer because A-Rod would be a far worse leader and Face of the Franchise. Jeter's ability to handle being the star took so much pressure off of guys like Bernie and Tino and O'Neill. If A-Rod is that face of the franchise, the chemistry on those teams isn't nearly the same. For all the talk about Torre's ability to handle egos, he actually did an absolutely awful job when it came to handling players with big egos. He had no clue how to handle guys like Sheffield, A-Rod, or Matt Kemp. Torre's reputation for being able to handle stars is 100% due to Derek Jeter being the consummate teammate despite being a star. So while A-Rod would provide 2-3 more wins than Jeter in a vacuum, it wouldn't be in a vacuum and A-Rod as the face would create a worse dynamic in the locker room. How many wins does that decrease in Chemistry cost the team? Maybe 2-3. And in the post-season when Chemistry becomes infinitely more important, I'd far rather keep Jeter than have A-Rod in his place.
So A-Rod is a far better individual player than Jeter, yet I'd rather have Jeter as the leader and face of my franchise. A-Rod can carry teams to a greater degree, but I'd be far more wary of him leading my team because of how big of an immature douchebag he has proven himself to be. The NYC media and atmosphere would've torn him apart and there's a 0% chance that A-Rod handles the NYC spotlight as well as Jeter did. That doesn't show up in statistics but it absolutely matters. Intangibles exist and yes, Derek Jeter provides a ton of it.
Jeter is one of the greatest statistical players in the sport's history. Yet his legacy is a lot greater than statistics. He was a tremendous Face to a Dynasty and Face to a Sport. He handled the spotlight as well as anyone has ever handled it. He isn't Mickey Mantle, but he's the best Yankee since Mickey Mantle. The best Yankee of the past 50 years. He was never my favorite Yankee during the Dynasty years but the more time has gone on the more I realize that he was always the most important player on the team. I've grown to appreciate everything he has meant to the franchise and sport and I'm going to miss him.
As for Olbermann, he's a disagreeable asshole who makes a living pissing people off - not worth my time and not worth yours either.
it was also nonsense to call him the best player of the last 30 years.
Jeter might not be a Top 10 player of all-time, but you could argue that he was a Top 10 position player of the past 50 years. 50 years might not be All-Time, but it's still a long ass time.
2) As for the argument of athletes in their primes, and who you start a team with I have always leaned towards another guy I never saw play. I would start any team with Mays, who I think could be argued as the best of all time. I'd also "settle" for Ruth or Mantle.
3) the thing about DiMaggio is I think he is very slightly overrated by fans from his era, and underrated by fans who never saw him play but read now about how he was a prick and then use some BS metrics.
Excellent!
Robin Yount wasn't better than Jeter - not even close.
WAR is a compilation statistic and someone good enough and healthy enough to play for this long will eventually have a lot of WAR.
So Jeter is 5th in WAR since 1995. He also happens to rate #1 in games played and #1 in plate appearances (which is aided by playing for a dominant offense the majority of his career). And that #5 position is a monstrous dropoff in WAR from ARod at #1 (200 fewer games) and Bonds #2 (1000 fewer games!).
If you time shift the parameters, and do 1990-2009, Jeter falls to 10th in WAR. And if you change the parameters 5 years in the other direction, from 2000-2014, Jeter ranks 11th in WAR.
Obviously, Jeter is a fantastic player, a Hall of Famer, whose durability and longevity is very impressive in today's era. But when you have someone who played in 20 different seasons, and then use only those 20 seasons worth of stats, of course he is going to be at or near the top, compliation wise.
And as to the idea that the Yankees would be worse with Arod instead of Jeter in NY, I find it an absurd hypothetical. Arod was superior to Jeter in every way on the baseball field. He was a far super hitter, far superior fielder, and a more efficient base stealer. If he were lucky enough to be drafted by the team with the biggest competitive advantage in North American sports instead of Jeter, they would have dominated all the same.
Would they have won 4 rings and 6 pennants from 1996-2003? Perhaps not because the postseason is a crapshoot. Then again, if Jeter and those Yankee teams replayed those postseasons again, they might not repeat it either given the random nature of it all.
BTW, when the Yankees were actually winning those titles, Bernie was the better player. So why don't people constantly kiss his ass like they do with Jeter? I don't know, maybe it's because Bernie never had Jeter's ego.
Yes, the only difference between the perception and reception of a deserved first ballot HOFer with crossover appeal's career and a guy who isn't even a fringe HOF candidate that had almost none is the former's ego.
Jeter is tied for 5th all-time in gold glove awards for a short stop particularly because of his sure-handedness, "jump throw" and because of his hitting which influence voters. Also, many fans have considered Jeter as an excellent defensive short stop over the years.
So I do think that there are many who confuse Jeter's defense. He did handle everything he got to-- he just got to a whole lot less than others.
I'm a huge fan of Robin Yount as I watched him all through the 70's and 80's. Great player who never really put it all together until the 80's. Jeter was a better fielder, base-runner, and hit for higher average. Yount was more of a home run hitter after he moved to the outfield.
As great as Yount was, he never quite lived up to his talent level, which I always thought was all-time.
And you should realize that individual stars have a limited statistical value on their teams in baseball. It's basically the #1 thing that the sabermetric revolution has taught us.
So yes, I believe that while A-Rod could add 3 wins over Jeter over the course of a regular season... 3 wins can easily be made up in other ways. Jeter took a ton of pressure off of his teammates by being able to handle the NYC media flawlessly. Bernie and Tino never had to answer stupid questions about Jeter. If A-Rod is the face of that team, you bet your ass that the ship doesn't sail as smoothly. So all things being the same A-Rod would add 3 more wins, but all things wouldn't be the same. Unless you think team chemistry has 0 impact on wins, which is ridiculous.
Here's what I know - Eli and Jeter are two players who have been lifetime members of teams I follow. Good citizens. Good ambassadors for the game. Solid characters. And winners.
That alone means they will get my respect and my cheers. In sports with a bunch of raving jackasses and attention whores abounding, these two guys go about their business unassuming and with integrity.
Frankly, I could care less if either guy is the 150th best Giant or Yankee - it shouldn't change the respect given for a farewell. I hate the Orioles, but respected Ripken. I never thought he was the best SS or even the best Oriole, but I still loved watching him get the attention for the consecutive games streak.
I'd much rather invest my attention and time towards guys like this than guys like T.O, Deion, Ortiz, A-rod, and others who put themselves above the sport and the team.
Chemistry is like clutch and grit. It's there, until it isn't. But mostly, it's just confirmation bias.
But I also love baseball as a sport and the history of the game and I did so before Jeter came along. So when people make ludicrous claims, it distorts the history of the game. And like trademarks and reputations, if you don't protect it, you eventually lose it.
It's a similar reason why I take MVP voting far more seriously than perhaps I should. Making terrible judgments eventually distort the history of the game because of how much MVP, All Star, etc. honors are then used to define players' legacies.
On the other hand, I think all sports have the intangibles that only true fans and students of the game can judge. there are a lot of people who spout all sorts of stats, including many of the newer metrics, who I believe don't truly know the game, or what to look for in a player.
It is in the latter that Jeter really does set himself apart from many of the stars of his era. Many have been mentioned here. Some poo-poo at terms like clutch, for example. But, take a look at the games brightest stars over history. how many of them replicate, let alone surpass, their career numbers in the post season? not many. Yet, Jeter did and he did it over a very large sample size.
GREAT POST! Statistics dominate sports analysis but intangibles bring championships. Jeter had the intangibles.
When a player has these attributes:
--20 years on one team
--Plays shortstop, a glamorous position
--Almost 3500 hits, 6th all time
--Over 1900 runs scored, 9th all time
--All-time postseason statistical leader in almost every offensive category
--Plays in New York
--One of the biggest contributors to five championships
--Never caught using PEDs when most of his contemporaries with better stats used PEDs
--20th all time in offensive WAR
He's going to get a lot of positive attention
If the reason those Yankee teams won with Jeter is because he brought great chemistry to the team, then why isn't he attributed for the terrible chemistry during the years when the Yankees kept shitting the bed, couldn't scrap together hits, and flamed out in many disappointing postseasons?
And if ARod were such a lockerroom cancer, or if he couldn't have enabled the earlier Yankee teams to win due to his personality, then how does 2009 happen where he is THE guy?
I do love the way FatMan articulated his view on respect for players. And to a large degree I agree with him. But, I don't think it is fair to let absurd claims go unchecked.
I'm fine with that.
I'll never tell my son that Jeter was the best Yankee ever, but I'll tell him he was the one i was most proud of watching. My Dad always said Mantle was the best Yankee in his day, but he enjoyed watching Whitey Ford a lot more.
Jeters 1999 season was better than any season Robin Yount ever had
Jeter DOES get shit on for being the Captain of the team during the 00's during the title drought. He does get shit for his relationship with A-Rod. He gets plenty of shit for it.
I feel like NYC is just a different animal though because of the size of the media. I feel like Jeter and Torre both being able to handle the media took a load off the rest of the team. I don't see A-Rod being able to handle it nearly as well as Jeter did.
And Jeter was the most consistent player on that 2009 team. A-Rod was the guy in the post-season, but Jeter was the MVP of that team over the course of the year. But it was a team effort.
Regarding his defense stats, yes, over the course of they were terrible. Particularly, over his prime when he bulked up a little. You have to remember, these advanced defensive stats weren't widely accepted by the league until past his prime. When asked to work on his lateral agility and positioning he did. He actually put together a plus defensive season in 2009, at the age of 35.
If this flaw was identified earlier in his career, I have no doubt he would have worked hard to correct it.
Nope. Yount's 1982 was better.
Don't give a flying fuck about "crossover appeal", whatever the hell that's supposed to be. Bernie's not a Hall of Famer because he was frequently injured and his peak was too short. At his peak he was a better player than Jeter, and he was the most important player on the dynasty teams. You know, those rings that Jeter boosters are always spouting off about?
Jeters OPS was 989 in 1999 better than Any season Yount had...
Robin Yount had a 285ish average in 1980 and his 1989 season anywhere near Jeters 1999.
1982 is Younts only comparable season
Yount is actually a very good comparison for Jeter.
Bernie is underrated because injuries ruined his longevity. I hate how he is overlooked by the Yanks because of the emphasis on the "Core Four". Bernie was absolutely more important and a greater Yankee than Posada or Pettitte. But that doesn't mean Jeter's role in the Dynasty was overrated. Over the course of the Dynasty Jeter was the MVP imo with Bernie a close 2nd and Mariano 3rd (Mo jumps to #1 in the post-season). But those 3 were clearly the most important pieces and head and shoulders above the rest.
Jeter: .308/.374/.465 in 158 games, 20 homers, 111 runs
Pretty much even.
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Yes, the only difference between the perception and reception of a deserved first ballot HOFer with crossover appeal's career and a guy who isn't even a fringe HOF candidate that had almost none is the former's ego.
Don't give a flying fuck about "crossover appeal", whatever the hell that's supposed to be. Bernie's not a Hall of Famer because he was frequently injured and his peak was too short. At his peak he was a better player than Jeter, and he was the most important player on the dynasty teams. You know, those rings that Jeter boosters are always spouting off about?
Jeter was massively more marketable in both national and local scales and ended up more popular among the average fans than Bernie was, with his career timed just right to coincide with a young generation's first exposure to winning Yankee baseball. You can not give a fuck about that personally or feel like your man was slighted somehow, but when a player with the better career has all that going for him, the perception of him and the reception his career gets from fans and media is going to be different, grander.
It's pretty common sense, unlike trying to chalk the differences up to merely ego issues.
Jeter: .308/.374/.465 in 158 games, 20 homers, 111 runs
Pretty much even.
Stolen bases 18 for Jeter vs. 8 for Bernie (each 5 CS) but Bernie 80 RBIs vs Jeter 61. So yeah, pretty comparable.
Go back and take a look at Bernie's numbers from 1997 to 2002 and tell me he wasn't the better player. And keep in mind, those numbers are in less than full seasons.
I think the Core Four getting repeated ad nausea over the last few years as the 4 guys were getting close to retirement chafed a lot of Yankee fans older than 30 because Bernie was also a home grown talent and he was, in many eyes, the most important and best Yankee over the span of the dynasty.
Go back and take a look at Bernie's numbers from 1997 to 2002 and tell me he wasn't the better player. And keep in mind, those numbers are in less than full seasons.
I'm not underestimating him or his contributions. He was a very good player, an integral part if championships, but you can't if or but things that never happened either.
He ended up with a career that doesn't even put him in any real fringe HOF debates. That's reality and it's not even a harsh one, as the vast majority of players to ever play the game would have loved to have his reality as theirs.
I totally think he was underrated. I think Jeter/Bernie/Mariano were the 3 most important pieces on those Dynasty teams by far. I really have no problem with any of those 3 guys being considered the MVP. Personally I'd go Jeter for everything he brought to the table, but Mariano's post-season dominance and Bernie's pure hitting ability both give them strong cases.
I really appreciate what Bernie meant for those Dynasty teams, but I just think it's crazy to insinuate that he was head and shoulders more important than Jeter during those years. Jeter was arguably the best player in baseball during the '98-'99 span when the Yanks Dynasty peaked. He should've won the MVP in '99 and he was nearly as good in '98. Jeter was actually underrated during those years because the roided-out HR hitters got all the love.
He was a Great Catcher but I'd take Bernie over Posada if we're just comparing those two. Both guys are in the Hall of Very Good but just short of the Hall of Fame.
And I'll forever hate the goddamned Mariners and that little fucking weasel Joey Cora who was out of the baseline and should have been called out.
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The media circle-jerks everyone so THEY can make money on the backs of people who actually acheived or strove to achieve something. They have and will always overdo it.
Best SS in Yankees history and top 5 in baseball history. Anyone that says otherwise better have lived over a hundred years and watched baseball throughout.
WAR - wins above replacement?
how about AFE (adjusting for era)? What would Jeter have done if he had taken PEDs? What would Banks have done if he had played in NYC in the 1990s? How long would it have taken MLB to ban Ruth for life for gambling?
Haters gotta hate....media's gotta print.
That being said, the You Tube exploration led me to this, so, fuck you guys for ruining my afternoon.
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That entire series was vintage Mattingly. His new leg kick, thanks to Sierra, had him playing like his old self for the month of September. He really out everything he had left into that stretch run and post season.
You know, I never heard O'Neill say that, but I believe it. For a few years, that stretch run had me believing Mattingly could play a little more. I never really thought he knew he was done and laid everything on the line. Then again, he always played all out.
The Yankees RBI leader also will not even hit 80. When was the last time the Yankees didn't have at least one batter with 100 RBI?
Arod came here at the peak of his career and was about to be handed greatest of all time status. there is just no excuse for what his career turned into and that was before the juiccing came out.
what a joke.
if ARod proved anything about his time here in NY is that he doesnt deserve to carry Jeters jock strap.
spare me the regular season stats and accolades. who cares about a HR blast in 5-2 game in july against the brewers when you cant foul tip a baseball in October?
aRod wont be getting a farewell tour. believe me.
Arod came here at the peak of his career and was about to be handed greatest of all time status. there is just no excuse for what his career turned into and that was before the juiccing came out.
what a joke.
if ARod proved anything about his time here in NY is that he doesnt deserve to carry Jeters jock strap.
spare me the regular season stats and accolades. who cares about a HR blast in 5-2 game in july against the brewers when you cant foul tip a baseball in October?
aRod wont be getting a farewell tour. believe me.
ARod may be very unlikable, and his reputation is stained, but let's not say absurd things here. Alex Rodriguez was a far better baseball player than Derek Jeter. They hit for similar average and OBP (Jeter higher average, AROd higher OBP), but the power gap between them was astronomical. While Jeter stole more bases (358 to 322), ARod was the more efficient theif.
And when it comes to defense, they weren't even in the same ball park. ARod was widely considered the best DEFENSIVE short stop during his prime (up there with Vizquel and Adam Everett depending which season you are talking about). Jeter is considered by many to have accumulated the most negative fielding at the position (due to how long he played there).
Their postseason lines?
Jeter: .308/.374/.465 for a wRC+ of 121
AROD: .263/.369/.464 for a wRC+ of 119
So for a season's worth of postseason play by Jeter, his offensive production is virtually the same (with more singles compared with ARod's walks) as ARod who has about a half a season of postseason sample size.
And that doesn't even consider that Jeter's postseason sample covers his entire career whereas ARod's sample misses a good number of his prime years because he only made the postseason twice as a regular player before coming to the Yankees in his 11th season.
Again, hate on ARod all you want, but he and Jeter were on completely different levels of production.
And while Arod has been busted for PEDs, I don't see anyone taking guys like Aaron, Schmidt, and Ruth out of the pantheon of elites for using PEDs either.
As far as olberman is concerned, he's a sour old douchebag who can't stand the idea that someone is getting more attention than he is. He's thinks he improves himself by dragging down some one in the current limelight.
Olberman failed spectacularly in his chosen life's work and earned a reputation as a despicable person from those he worked with, nevermind his audience. Here comes Jeter, a class act that olberman could only dream of being, and olberman has to piss on Jeter's parade.
I don't think this is Bernie's style. I beleieve if it was offered he would have turned it down.
Jeter never demanded the limelight but he never shied away either.
Pure speculation on my part about both of them.
One established to reporters on deadline that a fan favorite would steadily answer they go fill space rather than run around trying to pester other players to interrupt their pre or post game routines.
Its out their to read Matt...soon as Steinbrenner was on leave and before Levine the Yankee players got larger inner off limits clubhouse rooms they could hide in and could say things like..."sorry ...I gotta stretch pre game or shower after and get out...but Jeter seems to have a crowd around him.
I did not make it up Matt...I read it...my guess it was a book by Olney or Verducci...but it was in the 90's so beats me....I just found it interesting. What was interesting is that it was a deliberate strategy the inner core of the transition players from Mattingly to Jeter figured out. Tino, Boggs and Posada were a big part of it as they mistrusted the media and the obligations to media a ton.
Biggio retired seven years ago, with 3,060 hits and 1,844 runs scored. Jeter currently has 3,461 and 1,922, respectively, but Biggio had more doubles, home runs, and stolen bases. This year, in his second year on the Hall of Fame ballot, Biggio got 74.8 percent of the vote, missing induction by two votes. He will almost certainly make it next time around; no one really objects to the notion that a player like Craig Biggio belongs in the Hall of Fam
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He's closer to Biggio than he is to DiMaggio, and yea I guess that makes him overrated because so many Yanks fans consider him this generation's DiMaggio. But to try and act like him and Biggio had nearly identical careers is just dishonest.