Sounds like a completely unsupportable statement created to support a point. Meaningless, of course.
I would bet he was pitched around 80% less than a guy like Sheffield was when he was a Yankee. Of course, at some point in the season, Jeter was pitched around (as would be the 8th hitter against a pitcher), but the amount of times that it happens matters a lot. I am a Yankee fan, and like Derek Jeter, never got the love for him, but he is a great ballplayer. I just agree with Olberman, the tour does not fit his mark on the game.
the first 10 years of Arod over any 10 years of Jeter. Let's stop making foolish arguments. Best player of the past 30 years? Come on. Guys like Bonds, Arod, Griffey, Pujols, Henderson, Boggs, and others-- they just don't exist anymore?
The percent of time a hitter was pitched around. Presumably, the higher walk rate would be reflected in a more robust metric which could then be discussed.
around is a stupid fucking way to debate someone's composite ability as a baseball, especially one who derived much of his value from playing the, or one of the hardest and most important positions in the field, and one who derived a lot of value from great base running.
"You know, I have to say. Greg Maddux's fastball just didn't scare anyone."
Also, the really telling statistic of all time greatness Â
is WAR, right? Jeter is certainly an all time great (meaning HOF) in that category, but not an elite WAR guy and according to the JAWS statistic Jeter ranks 12th of all time at SS. Historically, his 71 War is with guys like Palmeiro, Frank Thomas, and Jim Thome. They were not throwing Ruth like farewell tours for guys like that, right?
If he had played for the Orioles, Blue Jays, Rays, Indians, White Sox, Mariners, Angels, Rangers, Astros, Phillies. Marlins. Expos- Nationals, Brewers, Rockies, D-Backs, Reds & Cardinals, he would have been each team's greatest player of all-time. You better look af his numbers & take a few deep breaths. His net worth vastly exceeds that of Rivera & Bernie Williams. And he didn't hang around for 10 years like Pete Rose slopping out singles to move up on the all-time hit list.
With all of the bullshit with the professional leagues, I, for one, deeply enjoyed this farewell tour. I only wish it could have gone on longer.
Jeter played one game with his team eliminated from playoff contention. In twenty f-cking years. Everyone else on the team turned over but him and Mo, and still they won. He hit for average, he was a factor on the bases, he hit with pop and while he was never a particularly good defensive shortstop he fielded the position well enough. The offensive gap between him and generic average or better defensive shortstop is huge. That's why having him in the lineup at a traditionally weak hitting position is such a big deal.
If he had played for the Orioles, Blue Jays, Rays, Indians, White Sox, Mariners, Angels, Rangers, Astros, Phillies. Marlins. Expos- Nationals, Brewers, Rockies, D-Backs, Reds & Cardinals, he would have been each team's greatest player of all-time. You better look af his numbers & take a few deep breaths. His net worth vastly exceeds that of Rivera & Bernie Williams. And he didn't hang around for 10 years like Pete Rose slopping out singles to move up on the all-time hit list.
With all of the bullshit with the professional leagues, I, for one, deeply enjoyed this farewell tour. I only wish it could have gone on longer.
You gotta love it. All you can do is laugh at the hate. Such stupidity.
Good argument. Calling me stupid. You win. Except there's this:
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According to two historical play-by-play-based systems, Baseball Prospectus’s Fielding Runs Above Average and Baseball-Reference’s Total Zone, Jeter has cost his team more in the field than any other player in history, with both methods assessing the damage at 230 to 260 runs.
If you dont realize that Jeter was a borderline SS then I cant really talk to you. Every conceivable defensive metric backs that up. You may disagree with the stats (you'd be wrong, but whatever), but to call me stupid for recognizing what every non-Yankee fan (and many a Yankee fan) has recognized forever is ridiculous. So fuck off. Link - ( New Window )
ever? That is a ludicrous statement. Stan Musial is that with a bullet. Also, Albert Pujols would be a better Cardinal even if he "only" played 11 seasons with them.
It's these kinds of absurd arguments that help create any backlash.
Jeter played at a high level for 20 years for the toughest franchise to play for in baseball. The guy was the Yankee captain for gosh sakes. Give him his due.
If he had played for the Orioles, Blue Jays, Rays, Indians, White Sox, Mariners, Angels, Rangers, Astros, Phillies. Marlins. Expos- Nationals, Brewers, Rockies, D-Backs, Reds & Cardinals, he would have been each team's greatest player of all-time. You better look af his numbers & take a few deep breaths. His net worth vastly exceeds that of Rivera & Bernie Williams. And he didn't hang around for 10 years like Pete Rose slopping out singles to move up on the all-time hit list.
With all of the bullshit with the professional leagues, I, for one, deeply enjoyed this farewell tour. I only wish it could have gone on longer.
Mike Schmidt would beg to differ.
And Paul Molitor. And Johnny Bench.
Maybe Stan Musial, when he stopped laughing.
And Ken Griffey Jr.
And that is nothing to dismiss jeter because he is an all time great.
The guy is an icon, who cares if he was the best this or that? He is a living legend and to try to pick him apart is pissing into the wind. In a 100 years from now he will be even bigger in baseballs and Yankee lore because that is what time does. Hats off to an icon, move on, he has secured his spot in history
RE: Also, the really telling statistic of all time greatness Â
is WAR, right? Jeter is certainly an all time great (meaning HOF) in that category, but not an elite WAR guy and according to the JAWS statistic Jeter ranks 12th of all time at SS. Historically, his 71 War is with guys like Palmeiro, Frank Thomas, and Jim Thome. They were not throwing Ruth like farewell tours for guys like that, right?
His oWAR is 20th all time, and only 4 of those guys have had careers that were as short or shorter than his. And to knock him for his defense when he played a serviceable shortstop is silly. Frank Thomas loses 4 points on career WAR because of his defense and he was a fucking DH. Jeter, whether he was a great shortstop or not (he wasn't), loses 9. That's a broken metric.
The guy is an icon, who cares if he was the best this or that? He is a living legend and to try to pick him apart is pissing into the wind. In a 100 years from now he will be even bigger in baseballs and Yankee lore because that is what time does. Hats off to an icon, move on, he has secured his spot in history
I think that is the point, though. Some of us, and I am a Yankee fan, think that while he is an HOF great player, that a legend is something above simply being a HOF player and what Jeter accomplished (his defense). I have no reason or want to tear him down, but I do have to say that I always wondered,-- what the extra fuss about Jeter was. But, there will never be an end to this debate. And, again, I say this as a Yankees fan.
it is important to factor in that Jeter's offensive WAR already factors in a huge positional adjustment for his offensive numbers being that of a short stop. So the runs (and therefore wins) he loses for his defense does not indicate a broken metric. Rather, these metrics that consider him to be a career detriment defensively compared to other shortstops are merely balancing out the huge positional bump already given to him in oWAR.
Reds - Johnny Bench, Joe Morgan, Frank Robinson, Barry Larkin
Cardinals - Stan Musial, Rogers Hornsby, Ducky Medwick
Phillies - Mike Schmidt, Steve Carlton
Orioles - Cal Ripken, Frank Robinson, Brooks Robinson
Mariners - Ken Griffey Jr., Edgar Martinez
White Sox - Frank Thomas, Joe Jackson, Eddie Collins, Luke Appling
Indians - Nap Lajoie, Tris Speaker, Bob Feller, Lou Boudreau
Astros - Jeff Bagwell, Craig Biggio
Brewers - Paul Molitor
All of those players were either easily or arguably better than Derek Jeter. Let's stop being silly about this
obviously a great player and a role model. That said, the farewell tour thing does wear me out but whatever. The things people get worked up over...btw, Ive known some very liberal ppl whove worked for/with KO and they said hes the biggest dick theyve ever met.
no one is asking. Does anyone really think Jeter is THE best player ever? A great, great player, probably top 10 all time, but I think even the most ardent Yankee fans wouldn't claim Jeter being the GOAT.
obviously a great player and a role model. That said, the farewell tour thing does wear me out but whatever. The things people get worked up over...btw, Ive known some very liberal ppl whove worked for/with KO and they said hes the biggest dick theyve ever met.
There we go, liberals managed to get on the right side of something! Just kidding....of course...
no one is asking. Does anyone really think Jeter is THE best player ever? A great, great player, probably top 10 all time, but I think even the most ardent Yankee fans wouldn't claim Jeter being the GOAT.
Jeter is not a top 10 player of all time. He would have a hard time being a top 10 player in the last 20 years.
Jeter played one game with his team eliminated from playoff contention. In twenty f-cking years. Everyone else on the team turned over but him and Mo, and still they won. He hit for average, he was a factor on the bases, he hit with pop and while he was never a particularly good defensive shortstop he fielded the position well enough. The offensive gap between him and generic average or better defensive shortstop is huge. That's why having him in the lineup at a traditionally weak hitting position is such a big deal.
I like Jeter, but two things are silly that defenders of his quote. One is this:
"Jeter played one game with his team eliminated from playoff contention"
Jorge Posada played zero. They had good teams, not sure how that specifically defends Jeter.
And the rings. Baseball is probably the sport where individual excellence least impacts game result (in my opinion) than any other sport, so the fact Jeter has 5 rings is a great tribute when evaluating his HOF worthiness or his place among Yankees greats, but when comparing two SS's it doesn't move the needle either way for me, too many other people had to contribute to those rings, not discounting Jeter's own contributions, to make them comparison relevant.
but like I said I like Jeter, and respect his place in history, just those two points strike me as fodder.
no one is asking. Does anyone really think Jeter is THE best player ever? A great, great player, probably top 10 all time, but I think even the most ardent Yankee fans wouldn't claim Jeter being the GOAT.
He is not a top 10 player of all time. Olberman is not asking whether he is a top 10 player of all time, he is asking whether this sendoff, which is fitting of a top 10 player of all time is equal to what Jeter's worth was as a ballplayer. He answers that no, and so do I.
There isn't any way Jeter is a top 10 player of all time Â
I knew I was forgetting a Brewer. Incidentally, I've always felt Jeter would have been a better player if he had eventually moved to the outfield around age 30 like Yount did.
it is important to factor in that Jeter's offensive WAR already factors in a huge positional adjustment for his offensive numbers being that of a short stop. So the runs (and therefore wins) he loses for his defense does not indicate a broken metric. Rather, these metrics that consider him to be a career detriment defensively compared to other shortstops are merely balancing out the huge positional bump already given to him in oWAR.
That actually makes sense, I know there is some accounting for it but in trying to wade through the explanations it isn't obvious how much.
no one is asking. Does anyone really think Jeter is THE best player ever? A great, great player, probably top 10 all time, but I think even the most ardent Yankee fans wouldn't claim Jeter being the GOAT.
He is not a top 10 player of all time. Olberman is not asking whether he is a top 10 player of all time, he is asking whether this sendoff, which is fitting of a top 10 player of all time is equal to what Jeter's worth was as a ballplayer. He answers that no, and so do I.
Where you and Olberman fail in the analysis is ultimately it's a personal assessment of what is fitting in terms of a send off, and that maybe his departure is about something more than simply his place in the record books.
no one is asking. Does anyone really think Jeter is THE best player ever? A great, great player, probably top 10 all time, but I think even the most ardent Yankee fans wouldn't claim Jeter being the GOAT.
Top 10 all time? Saying that Olbermann is building a straw man with the best ever, but then following up with "probably top 10 all time" still illustrates his point. Even if you exclude pitchers, he's not in the vicinity of the top 10. At best, he's the 5th best non-pitching Yankee of all-time.
When kids talk about baseball stars 50 years from now, the way my generations (gen x) wished they saw Mantle, Mays, DiMaggio, Williams, etc--I have a hard time believing that people will ever say I wish I saw Derek Jeter play.
I have to disagree with you. My Dad, who is 95, saw DiMaggio and Mantle and Mays play. A couple of years ago, I was watching a Yankee game with him. And I asked him what it was like to watch guys like that. And he said, 'Well it's like watching Jeter and Mo and Posada. Those are your DiMaggio's and Whitey's and Yogis."
Some will not appreciate the Yankees of the past 20 years until they are old.
Top 5, probably. Wagner, A-Rod and Ripken are pretty clearly the top three IMO. Jeter probably belongs in the four slot, leading a pack that would include Appling, the Wiz and Larkin.
no one is asking. Does anyone really think Jeter is THE best player ever? A great, great player, probably top 10 all time, but I think even the most ardent Yankee fans wouldn't claim Jeter being the GOAT.
He is not a top 10 player of all time. Olberman is not asking whether he is a top 10 player of all time, he is asking whether this sendoff, which is fitting of a top 10 player of all time is equal to what Jeter's worth was as a ballplayer. He answers that no, and so do I.
Cal didn't have quite the same victory lap but he had one, and they're in the same class, Cal with the streak and Jeter with the rings. Chipper Jones too. And Jeter has been the face of baseball's most loved and most hated team, of a dynasty and in some ways the face of the sport for more than a decade.
So Essex
JoeyBigBlue : 8:15 am : link : reply
Jeter is a right handed hitting SS with a 310 lifetime batting average, over 1900 runs scored...I guess there's been many of those in baseball history.
With 20 years to stat pad, even Chris Woodward could hit those numbers I'm sure.
Not BA. You are just jealous because no one cared when Chipper left.
All of those players were either easily or arguably better than Derek Jeter. Let's stop being silly about this
Some of these guys I'd take Jeter over -- Biggio and Edgar in particular. Larkin is an interesting comp since they're the same position. Jeter put up better counting stats (600+ more games) and was possibly a better offensive player. Larkin was not Ozzie Smith but was hands down a better defender than Jeter (who as I noted, was a terrible SS who was kept at the position because he was Derek Jeter, Captain of America, and not because he was the best available SS).
But the point is generally accurate. Jeter is not one of the handful of all time great players -- he's not a Mantle, Ruth etc. Certainly a first ballot hall of famer though.
Of any reasonable top 20 list of position players....DiMaggio isn't in the top 10.
DiMaggio missed three years of his prime because of the war, and if you're going by career WAR (everyone's favorite stat) he is at 41 on Baseball Reference, you have to go down past 100 to get to someone who played in as few seasons as he did, Home Run Baker and Shoeless Joe.
going on a real tear and winning 5 championships in a row now that they got that albatross Jeter off their neck. He was the only thing holding them back, apparently.
going on a real tear and winning 5 championships in a row now that they got that albatross Jeter off their neck. He was the only thing holding them back, apparently.
Everyone just said Jeter was a great player and first ballot HOF. I didnt see anyone saying he stinks.
But many of us do not think he is legendary player which is reserved for guys probably in the top 20-25 of all time.
I would bet he was pitched around 80% less than a guy like Sheffield was when he was a Yankee. Of course, at some point in the season, Jeter was pitched around (as would be the 8th hitter against a pitcher), but the amount of times that it happens matters a lot. I am a Yankee fan, and like Derek Jeter, never got the love for him, but he is a great ballplayer. I just agree with Olberman, the tour does not fit his mark on the game.
"You know, I have to say. Greg Maddux's fastball just didn't scare anyone."
With all of the bullshit with the professional leagues, I, for one, deeply enjoyed this farewell tour. I only wish it could have gone on longer.
Mike Schmidt would beg to differ.
I have heard many people suggest that Olbermann is the biggest douche of all time.
Quote:
If he had played for the Orioles, Blue Jays, Rays, Indians, White Sox, Mariners, Angels, Rangers, Astros, Phillies. Marlins. Expos- Nationals, Brewers, Rockies, D-Backs, Reds & Cardinals, he would have been each team's greatest player of all-time. You better look af his numbers & take a few deep breaths. His net worth vastly exceeds that of Rivera & Bernie Williams. And he didn't hang around for 10 years like Pete Rose slopping out singles to move up on the all-time hit list.
With all of the bullshit with the professional leagues, I, for one, deeply enjoyed this farewell tour. I only wish it could have gone on longer.
Mike Schmidt would beg to differ.
And Paul Molitor. And Johnny Bench.
Maybe Stan Musial, when he stopped laughing.
Good argument. Calling me stupid. You win. Except there's this:
If you dont realize that Jeter was a borderline SS then I cant really talk to you. Every conceivable defensive metric backs that up. You may disagree with the stats (you'd be wrong, but whatever), but to call me stupid for recognizing what every non-Yankee fan (and many a Yankee fan) has recognized forever is ridiculous. So fuck off.
Link - ( New Window )
It's these kinds of absurd arguments that help create any backlash.
Quote:
In comment 11879269 RetroJint said:
Quote:
If he had played for the Orioles, Blue Jays, Rays, Indians, White Sox, Mariners, Angels, Rangers, Astros, Phillies. Marlins. Expos- Nationals, Brewers, Rockies, D-Backs, Reds & Cardinals, he would have been each team's greatest player of all-time. You better look af his numbers & take a few deep breaths. His net worth vastly exceeds that of Rivera & Bernie Williams. And he didn't hang around for 10 years like Pete Rose slopping out singles to move up on the all-time hit list.
With all of the bullshit with the professional leagues, I, for one, deeply enjoyed this farewell tour. I only wish it could have gone on longer.
Mike Schmidt would beg to differ.
And Paul Molitor. And Johnny Bench.
Maybe Stan Musial, when he stopped laughing.
And Ken Griffey Jr.
And that is nothing to dismiss jeter because he is an all time great.
His oWAR is 20th all time, and only 4 of those guys have had careers that were as short or shorter than his. And to knock him for his defense when he played a serviceable shortstop is silly. Frank Thomas loses 4 points on career WAR because of his defense and he was a fucking DH. Jeter, whether he was a great shortstop or not (he wasn't), loses 9. That's a broken metric.
And he's been getting his due and then some since 1996. THere's nothing wrong with not wanting to whitewash his career.
I think that is the point, though. Some of us, and I am a Yankee fan, think that while he is an HOF great player, that a legend is something above simply being a HOF player and what Jeter accomplished (his defense). I have no reason or want to tear him down, but I do have to say that I always wondered,-- what the extra fuss about Jeter was. But, there will never be an end to this debate. And, again, I say this as a Yankees fan.
Who argued he wouldn't get in on the first ballot?
Cardinals - Stan Musial, Rogers Hornsby, Ducky Medwick
Phillies - Mike Schmidt, Steve Carlton
Orioles - Cal Ripken, Frank Robinson, Brooks Robinson
Mariners - Ken Griffey Jr., Edgar Martinez
White Sox - Frank Thomas, Joe Jackson, Eddie Collins, Luke Appling
Indians - Nap Lajoie, Tris Speaker, Bob Feller, Lou Boudreau
Astros - Jeff Bagwell, Craig Biggio
Brewers - Paul Molitor
All of those players were either easily or arguably better than Derek Jeter. Let's stop being silly about this
There we go, liberals managed to get on the right side of something! Just kidding....of course...
Jeter is not a top 10 player of all time. He would have a hard time being a top 10 player in the last 20 years.
I like Jeter, but two things are silly that defenders of his quote. One is this:
"Jeter played one game with his team eliminated from playoff contention"
Jorge Posada played zero. They had good teams, not sure how that specifically defends Jeter.
And the rings. Baseball is probably the sport where individual excellence least impacts game result (in my opinion) than any other sport, so the fact Jeter has 5 rings is a great tribute when evaluating his HOF worthiness or his place among Yankees greats, but when comparing two SS's it doesn't move the needle either way for me, too many other people had to contribute to those rings, not discounting Jeter's own contributions, to make them comparison relevant.
but like I said I like Jeter, and respect his place in history, just those two points strike me as fodder.
He is not a top 10 player of all time. Olberman is not asking whether he is a top 10 player of all time, he is asking whether this sendoff, which is fitting of a top 10 player of all time is equal to what Jeter's worth was as a ballplayer. He answers that no, and so do I.
I knew I was forgetting a Brewer. Incidentally, I've always felt Jeter would have been a better player if he had eventually moved to the outfield around age 30 like Yount did.
That actually makes sense, I know there is some accounting for it but in trying to wade through the explanations it isn't obvious how much.
Quote:
no one is asking. Does anyone really think Jeter is THE best player ever? A great, great player, probably top 10 all time, but I think even the most ardent Yankee fans wouldn't claim Jeter being the GOAT.
He is not a top 10 player of all time. Olberman is not asking whether he is a top 10 player of all time, he is asking whether this sendoff, which is fitting of a top 10 player of all time is equal to what Jeter's worth was as a ballplayer. He answers that no, and so do I.
Where you and Olberman fail in the analysis is ultimately it's a personal assessment of what is fitting in terms of a send off, and that maybe his departure is about something more than simply his place in the record books.
Top 10 all time? Saying that Olbermann is building a straw man with the best ever, but then following up with "probably top 10 all time" still illustrates his point. Even if you exclude pitchers, he's not in the vicinity of the top 10. At best, he's the 5th best non-pitching Yankee of all-time.
When kids talk about baseball stars 50 years from now, the way my generations (gen x) wished they saw Mantle, Mays, DiMaggio, Williams, etc--I have a hard time believing that people will ever say I wish I saw Derek Jeter play.
I have to disagree with you. My Dad, who is 95, saw DiMaggio and Mantle and Mays play. A couple of years ago, I was watching a Yankee game with him. And I asked him what it was like to watch guys like that. And he said, 'Well it's like watching Jeter and Mo and Posada. Those are your DiMaggio's and Whitey's and Yogis."
Some will not appreciate the Yankees of the past 20 years until they are old.
Quote:
no one is asking. Does anyone really think Jeter is THE best player ever? A great, great player, probably top 10 all time, but I think even the most ardent Yankee fans wouldn't claim Jeter being the GOAT.
He is not a top 10 player of all time. Olberman is not asking whether he is a top 10 player of all time, he is asking whether this sendoff, which is fitting of a top 10 player of all time is equal to what Jeter's worth was as a ballplayer. He answers that no, and so do I.
Cal didn't have quite the same victory lap but he had one, and they're in the same class, Cal with the streak and Jeter with the rings. Chipper Jones too. And Jeter has been the face of baseball's most loved and most hated team, of a dynasty and in some ways the face of the sport for more than a decade.
Quote:
So Essex
JoeyBigBlue : 8:15 am : link : reply
Jeter is a right handed hitting SS with a 310 lifetime batting average, over 1900 runs scored...I guess there's been many of those in baseball history.
With 20 years to stat pad, even Chris Woodward could hit those numbers I'm sure.
Not BA. You are just jealous because no one cared when Chipper left.
All of those players were either easily or arguably better than Derek Jeter. Let's stop being silly about this
Some of these guys I'd take Jeter over -- Biggio and Edgar in particular. Larkin is an interesting comp since they're the same position. Jeter put up better counting stats (600+ more games) and was possibly a better offensive player. Larkin was not Ozzie Smith but was hands down a better defender than Jeter (who as I noted, was a terrible SS who was kept at the position because he was Derek Jeter, Captain of America, and not because he was the best available SS).
But the point is generally accurate. Jeter is not one of the handful of all time great players -- he's not a Mantle, Ruth etc. Certainly a first ballot hall of famer though.
DiMaggio missed three years of his prime because of the war, and if you're going by career WAR (everyone's favorite stat) he is at 41 on Baseball Reference, you have to go down past 100 to get to someone who played in as few seasons as he did, Home Run Baker and Shoeless Joe.
Everyone just said Jeter was a great player and first ballot HOF. I didnt see anyone saying he stinks.
But many of us do not think he is legendary player which is reserved for guys probably in the top 20-25 of all time.