His peak was phenomenal, but between the war and his injury problems, it was fairly short. He usually missed a decent chunk of games every year which hurt his counting stats.
He also had the misfortune of being a right-handed power hitter in the days when Yankee Stadium ran 462 to left-center.
Fair points on Joe D., but who drops out of the top 10?
Between the differences n depth of talent as begrudgingly recognized by guys like James skewing things in different eras and how there simply isn't quality defensive numbers (and never will be, as there isn't footage or documentation to even begin to be charted of so very many games) for the the majority of baseball history, it's really kind of silly how many people try to force it as anything but soft fodder.
Hell, you use fWAR (which you should, at least when talking position players) and in a guy like Jeter's case, you're getting a career where one part is calculated with one defensive stat and the rest with another. How is that a solid, "certain" basis for anything?
DiMaggio won 3 MVPs and finished runner up 2x. Don't forget his hitting streak which lives to this day. He probably didn't always get the most favorable press because he was such a tough guy to like.
Yes, he was injured a lot and missed his 3 prime years to WW2.
RE: Fair points on Joe D., but who drops out of the top 10?
Without much thought - Ruth, Mays, Aaron, Musial, Williams, Wagner, Gehrig, Mantle, Foxx, Cobb...probably missing one or two...
Depends if you are going to include Bonds. Maybe Henderson/Schmidt/Hornsby but they are usually considered right on the outside of the top 10. Maybe top 15.
RE: Fair points on Joe D., but who drops out of the top 10?
In his youth, he and Mays were the best 2 players in baseball. But his alcoholism and that devastating knee injury really diminished his skills. No question, he is my favorite player of all time.
going on a real tear and winning 5 championships in a row now that they got that albatross Jeter off their neck. He was the only thing holding them back, apparently.
If only there were an undo button for this irrationality. Jeter was a great player, but perhaps no great player benefited more from his situation than Jeter.
going on a real tear and winning 5 championships in a row now that they got that albatross Jeter off their neck. He was the only thing holding them back, apparently.
If only there were an undo button for this irrationality. Jeter was a great player, but perhaps no great player benefited more from his situation than Jeter.
And no one player did more to create that situation than Jeter. Between him and Posada, having premium offensive production at traditionally defense-oriented positions papered over a lot that was wrong with this lineup over the last two decades.
I did get it. I was just amplifying on it. It's interesting because the Yankees managed to replace an awesome player (DiMaggio) with an even better player (Mantle). Too bad Mickey couldn't keep that up.
That's why I say you have to give Jeter tremendous respect for his 20 year career. MLB is very hard. It's grueling. Anyone who has played baseball knows how hard it is.
Even with his alcoholism and injuries, he kept producing to the very end. By 1968 he wasn't the same player, obviously, but he still produced. His triple slash from that season gets tossed out a lot as an example of how far he had fallen (.237/.385/.398), but that ignores the context. 1968 was The Year of the Pitcher. League average was .230/.297/.339. Mantle was STILL 3rd in OPB and 9th in OPS that year!
going on a real tear and winning 5 championships in a row now that they got that albatross Jeter off their neck. He was the only thing holding them back, apparently.
If only there were an undo button for this irrationality. Jeter was a great player, but perhaps no great player benefited more from his situation than Jeter.
And no one player did more to create that situation than Jeter. Between him and Posada, having premium offensive production at traditionally defense-oriented positions papered over a lot that was wrong with this lineup over the last two decades.
How many rings do the Yankees win if you replace Jeter with the likes of ARod, Tejada, Nomar, Rollins, Tulo, as your Shortstops. I bet the number is pretty close. Thats how good the Yankees were.
tour has left a bad taste in a lot of peoples mouths. The Yankees are mostly to blame for that but the stuff has been so over the top I don't blame people for being annoyed by it. I don't care either way, I like Jeter but never have and never will absolutely love him as everyone knows. I appreciate all he has done for the Yankees and he is definitely a class act but I can definitely do without a lot of this stuff but I blame the Yankees for most of that, not him. All they care about is making a buck. I'll be there Thursday night, taking my mom who might be his biggest fan. Mo and Bernie are still my 2 favorite Yankees by far.
I devoured all the boxscores and listened/watched all the games I could. I could tell you what he did in his last 10 games..game by game...But he was a broken down player the 2nd half of his career. Watching him run was painful.
who has been with an organization his entire career and has been the face of that team, leading them through multiple titles and you should expect this type of ceremonial goodbye.
Ripken got a lot of love his last year and I don't remember people ranting about it. Well deserved for Jeter, just like it was well deserved for Cal.
With the emphasis on player. What he has done with his toolset is unbelievable. When the stage was set, he performed consistently above expectations, with the focus on winning, not on himself.
He epitomizes everything that is right about sports and baseball, and very little comes close. Baseball doesn't deserve him.
I dont specifically remember whether he did a tour like Jeter, but Rikpen is really a somewhat special case. The 1994-1995 strike REALLY pissed off a lot of fans and sportswriters. Not like the recent NBA, NFL, and NHL strikes, which fans didnt give two shits about once they were done. Ripken's games played record pulled particularly hard on the heartstrings of the sort of fans/writers who were most put off by the strike -- the guardians of the game types. Ripken's approach to the record and then the game where he broke it were a big turning point for MLB's recovery from the strike IMO. People group in the Sosa-McGwire HR race, but that was 3 years later.
With the emphasis on player. What he has done with his toolset is unbelievable. When the stage was set, he performed consistently above expectations, with the focus on winning, not on himself.
He epitomizes everything that is right about sports and baseball, and very little comes close. Baseball doesn't deserve him.
Just so we're clear, this is not how you earn a gift basket.
You guys are comparing jeter's slugging and war and whatever
To right fielders and first basemen and third basemen.
Let's compare the positional player with other positional players of the same position.
If you don't think one of the best shortstops of all time isn't one of the best PLAYERS of all time then just stop the debate now. I think one off the very best shortstops ever is also one of the best major league players ever. I'm not putting Barry fucking bonds at shortstop.
How many all time shortstops were "feared"' at the plate? 5?
Jeter is one of the best ever. His combo of skills, leadership, longevity and baseball karma will be tough to replicate at the SS position. You're blind and stubborn and bias if you can't admit that.
sure, except for the fact that he was a mediocre shortstop at best
Jeter is the greatest baseball player of the past 30 years (perhaps Bonds could give him a run). Olbermann also completely forgets that he is the all-time Yankee hit leader when comparing him to other Yankees.
The man has 5 rings, was the face of an organization (and a sport), let him go out how he wants. Don't chastise him because the organization wants to squeeze every penny out of his image before he's gone.
"Perhaps" Bonds could give him a run? Huh?
RE: You guys are comparing jeter's slugging and war and whatever
To right fielders and first basemen and third basemen.
Let's compare the positional player with other positional players of the same position.
If you don't think one of the best shortstops of all time isn't one of the best PLAYERS of all time then just stop the debate now. I think one off the very best shortstops ever is also one of the best major league players ever. I'm not putting Barry fucking bonds at shortstop.
How many all time shortstops were "feared"' at the plate? 5?
Jeter is one of the best ever. His combo of skills, leadership, longevity and baseball karma will be tough to replicate at the SS position. You're blind and stubborn and bias if you can't admit that.
The problem with that argument is that many guys who played 2B/3B probably could have played SS and have had much bigger impacts on their teams. But SS was looked at primarily as a defensive position until probably the 1990s. Do you think guus like schmidt, brooks, brett, boggs, banks for his career wouldn't be adequate SS? schmidt never played SS cause they had bow a who was a fine SS.
That's absurd. In his prime Jeter was an above average SS that made all the necessary plays and made some brilliant plays in big spots. He was anything but average at best. That's just ridiculous.
..is what a baseball player is supposed to be. You think it is easy to come out and play at a high level every day, put up with the physical and mental toll of playing baseball at the highest level.
Jeter did this for two decades in the nations largest media market playing for its signature pro sports franchise. He is consistently good at all facets of the game. His only weakness I suppose would be going up the middle.
Derek Jeter is without question one of the greatest baseball players to ever live and the fact that he has even cracked into the group of greatest Yankees with Ruth, Gehrig, Joe D, Yogi is a ridiculous accomplishment. I have no doubt I will leave this Earth and not see another Yankee even enter into that group.
It should also be mentioned that Jeter did this all natural. A-rod is a all time great but do we really know if he could have performed year in and year out without the insane amount of PED's this guy took?
Mid to late 90's there was the big three of the new type of SS, A-Rod, Jeter and Nomar. A-Rod is one of the king juicers, Nomar left the Sox and THEN they finally won the big one (plus he was probably juicing too), all the while Jeter is plugging away year after year, game after game just playing at a high level and winning.
Jeter is everything a ballplayer is supposed to be.
A year later, does anyone remember it? Does anyone care? Does it matter? Jeter's tour will soon be forgotten as well - as soon as the first dramatic postseason game is played. This is typical outcry of people who are conditioned to get pissed off about whatever happened five minutes ago. I guess they're already bored with Ray Rice and Adrian Peterson beating the shit out of women and children, and have moved onto Jeter.
There are a few more quality hitting short stops but it's still a position that lends itself to lighter hitting.
Timing is everything but Jeter took advantage. That's all we can go on. In his prime he was the best overall SS in the game or right there. His intangibles only added to the legacy.
you cant double count. The only reason Jeter is in the discussion as a great is that he was a very good hitter for his position. If he was an OF, his career 162 game averages f .310/.377/.440 would be really good but he'd be outclassed by guys like Abreu (.291/.395/.475 with more SB/game)who wont sniff the hall. And I wont revisit the defense issues, but they're relevant here as well.
And only watching about 4 minutes of that asshole windbag Olberman nobody except maybe Posada and a few others thinks he's the best person, player or Yankee ever. Geez it's hyperbole from a friend. And the Yankees and baseball have now done this farewell shit for years to fill seats and sell advertising. A bit uneccessary but not unsurprising sadly.
He may be the smartest because in this age of digital madness and total lack of privacy he's been able to keep his image and personal life basically totally to himself. That's more amazing than 3000 hits.
That Olberman feels the need to say this is shows what a big bag of vinegar and water he is. Like he's jealous. Another reason outside of football games watching ESPN is an utter waste of time.
you cant double count. The only reason Jeter is in the discussion as a great is that he was a very good hitter for his position. If he was an OF, his career 162 game averages f .310/.377/.440 would be really good but he'd be outclassed by guys like Abreu (.291/.395/.475 with more SB/game)who wont sniff the hall. And I wont revisit the defense issues, but they're relevant here as well.
But he wasn't an outfielder!!!! Why are we even bringing that up?
I guess Pedro Martinez wasn't that good a player because he was a shitty hitter.
But he wasn't an outfielder!!!! Why are we even bringing that up?
I guess Pedro Martinez wasn't that good a player because he was a shitty hitter.
You're to one talking about putting Barry Bonds at SS. Maybe I misunderstood your point about Jeter being one of the best players at any position because he was one of the best SSs.
going on a real tear and winning 5 championships in a row now that they got that albatross Jeter off their neck. He was the only thing holding them back, apparently.
If only there were an undo button for this irrationality. Jeter was a great player, but perhaps no great player benefited more from his situation than Jeter.
What was irrational was all the complaints about Jeter the last few years. As if he was what was keeping them from winning. If you want to deny that this went on, fine. But It was horrible. You could not be on a Yankee game thread without hearing it over and over again. Like I said, I hope those whiners have fun complaining about the next guy.
I doubt Schmidt, Boggs or Brett would have been above average as shortstops. They didn't have the build for thh range.
It would be like saying Nettles would have been decent at SS.
Schmidt, especially. The guy was built like a OF, not a SS.
I disagree about Schmidt. For at least the majority of his career, his athleticism was very underrated. His arm was plenty strong. And believe it or not, he was actually the same size as Jeter but maybe an i nch taller. Now I am not saying he would have been a greatdefensive SS, cause you never know unless it happens, but I believe he could have more than held his own as a SS if need be.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I really look forward to the Yankees
going on a real tear and winning 5 championships in a row now that they got that albatross Jeter off their neck. He was the only thing holding them back, apparently.
If only there were an undo button for this irrationality. Jeter was a great player, but perhaps no great player benefited more from his situation than Jeter.
And no one player did more to create that situation than Jeter. Between him and Posada, having premium offensive production at traditionally defense-oriented positions papered over a lot that was wrong with this lineup over the last two decades.
How many rings do the Yankees win if you replace Jeter with the likes of ARod, Tejada, Nomar, Rollins, Tulo, as your Shortstops. I bet the number is pretty close. Thats how good the Yankees were.
Disagree. While they may be more talented than Jeter, none of them have the clutch quality he had. Jeter is the whole package. Good fielding, great hitting, great leader and had the personality to fit NY. The others didn't. We've seen how Arod and Nomar flamed out. I'll never forget Nomar sitting on the bench while his whole team was up on their feet during that game where Jeter crashed into the stands. I think he was traded soon after that.
Good stuff...particularly the part about how we know how
going on a real tear and winning 5 championships in a row now that they got that albatross Jeter off their neck. He was the only thing holding them back, apparently.
If only there were an undo button for this irrationality. Jeter was a great player, but perhaps no great player benefited more from his situation than Jeter.
And no one player did more to create that situation than Jeter. Between him and Posada, having premium offensive production at traditionally defense-oriented positions papered over a lot that was wrong with this lineup over the last two decades.
How many rings do the Yankees win if you replace Jeter with the likes of ARod, Tejada, Nomar, Rollins, Tulo, as your Shortstops. I bet the number is pretty close. Thats how good the Yankees were.
Disagree. While they may be more talented than Jeter, none of them have the clutch quality he had. Jeter is the whole package. Good fielding, great hitting, great leader and had the personality to fit NY. The others didn't. We've seen how Arod and Nomar flamed out. I'll never forget Nomar sitting on the bench while his whole team was up on their feet during that game where Jeter crashed into the stands. I think he was traded soon after that.
I would put a good chunk of money that the Yankees would have won some WS if Arod (who was a far superior player to Jeter when the Yanks won the last of those 4 WS.) Nomar, Tejada or Rollins were the SS. Those are all HOF are Hall of very good players who would not bring a team down to the point of costing them titles.
And this whole ARod chokes in the postseason thing is one of the most overblown things I have ever read. He his .333 in Seattle, and had some really good series up until the 2010 ALCS where things went down hill. His 2009 performance was unworldly.
Simple as that. The guy has been everything you could have ever wanted as a player for 20 years, but people would rather be on the other side of popular opinion and bash the guy on his way out.
RE: Good stuff...particularly the part about how we know how
for 17 and he was hurt for one more. When Tulo can stay on the field consistently for a three or a four year stretch come talk to me. A-Rod is what he is. Nomar hit the skids pretty quickly. Point is we can try to argue what any of them MIGHT have done in a Yankee uniform, but we know what Jeter DID in a Yankee uniform.
He also had the misfortune of being a right-handed power hitter in the days when Yankee Stadium ran 462 to left-center.
Hell, you use fWAR (which you should, at least when talking position players) and in a guy like Jeter's case, you're getting a career where one part is calculated with one defensive stat and the rest with another. How is that a solid, "certain" basis for anything?
Yes, he was injured a lot and missed his 3 prime years to WW2.
Depends if you are going to include Bonds. Maybe Henderson/Schmidt/Hornsby but they are usually considered right on the outside of the top 10. Maybe top 15.
Yogi is underrated too, his prime was shortened by the war but he was phenomenal in his prime. 7 top 4 finishes in MVP voting in 7 years, with 3 wins.
If only there were an undo button for this irrationality. Jeter was a great player, but perhaps no great player benefited more from his situation than Jeter.
Quote:
going on a real tear and winning 5 championships in a row now that they got that albatross Jeter off their neck. He was the only thing holding them back, apparently.
If only there were an undo button for this irrationality. Jeter was a great player, but perhaps no great player benefited more from his situation than Jeter.
And no one player did more to create that situation than Jeter. Between him and Posada, having premium offensive production at traditionally defense-oriented positions papered over a lot that was wrong with this lineup over the last two decades.
That's why I say you have to give Jeter tremendous respect for his 20 year career. MLB is very hard. It's grueling. Anyone who has played baseball knows how hard it is.
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In comment 11879382 buford said:
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going on a real tear and winning 5 championships in a row now that they got that albatross Jeter off their neck. He was the only thing holding them back, apparently.
If only there were an undo button for this irrationality. Jeter was a great player, but perhaps no great player benefited more from his situation than Jeter.
And no one player did more to create that situation than Jeter. Between him and Posada, having premium offensive production at traditionally defense-oriented positions papered over a lot that was wrong with this lineup over the last two decades.
How many rings do the Yankees win if you replace Jeter with the likes of ARod, Tejada, Nomar, Rollins, Tulo, as your Shortstops. I bet the number is pretty close. Thats how good the Yankees were.
+1000
But Paul & Mo are my 2 favorites.
Ripken got a lot of love his last year and I don't remember people ranting about it. Well deserved for Jeter, just like it was well deserved for Cal.
He epitomizes everything that is right about sports and baseball, and very little comes close. Baseball doesn't deserve him.
When the Yankees traded for A-Rod, who switched positions? It wasn't Jeter, even though he was clearly the inferior shortstop.
He epitomizes everything that is right about sports and baseball, and very little comes close. Baseball doesn't deserve him.
Just so we're clear, this is not how you earn a gift basket.
Let's compare the positional player with other positional players of the same position.
If you don't think one of the best shortstops of all time isn't one of the best PLAYERS of all time then just stop the debate now. I think one off the very best shortstops ever is also one of the best major league players ever. I'm not putting Barry fucking bonds at shortstop.
How many all time shortstops were "feared"' at the plate? 5?
Jeter is one of the best ever. His combo of skills, leadership, longevity and baseball karma will be tough to replicate at the SS position. You're blind and stubborn and bias if you can't admit that.
The man has 5 rings, was the face of an organization (and a sport), let him go out how he wants. Don't chastise him because the organization wants to squeeze every penny out of his image before he's gone.
"Perhaps" Bonds could give him a run? Huh?
Let's compare the positional player with other positional players of the same position.
If you don't think one of the best shortstops of all time isn't one of the best PLAYERS of all time then just stop the debate now. I think one off the very best shortstops ever is also one of the best major league players ever. I'm not putting Barry fucking bonds at shortstop.
How many all time shortstops were "feared"' at the plate? 5?
Jeter is one of the best ever. His combo of skills, leadership, longevity and baseball karma will be tough to replicate at the SS position. You're blind and stubborn and bias if you can't admit that.
The problem with that argument is that many guys who played 2B/3B probably could have played SS and have had much bigger impacts on their teams. But SS was looked at primarily as a defensive position until probably the 1990s. Do you think guus like schmidt, brooks, brett, boggs, banks for his career wouldn't be adequate SS? schmidt never played SS cause they had bow a who was a fine SS.
Jeter did this for two decades in the nations largest media market playing for its signature pro sports franchise. He is consistently good at all facets of the game. His only weakness I suppose would be going up the middle.
Derek Jeter is without question one of the greatest baseball players to ever live and the fact that he has even cracked into the group of greatest Yankees with Ruth, Gehrig, Joe D, Yogi is a ridiculous accomplishment. I have no doubt I will leave this Earth and not see another Yankee even enter into that group.
It should also be mentioned that Jeter did this all natural. A-rod is a all time great but do we really know if he could have performed year in and year out without the insane amount of PED's this guy took?
Mid to late 90's there was the big three of the new type of SS, A-Rod, Jeter and Nomar. A-Rod is one of the king juicers, Nomar left the Sox and THEN they finally won the big one (plus he was probably juicing too), all the while Jeter is plugging away year after year, game after game just playing at a high level and winning.
Jeter is everything a ballplayer is supposed to be.
Timing is everything but Jeter took advantage. That's all we can go on. In his prime he was the best overall SS in the game or right there. His intangibles only added to the legacy.
He may be the smartest because in this age of digital madness and total lack of privacy he's been able to keep his image and personal life basically totally to himself. That's more amazing than 3000 hits.
That Olberman feels the need to say this is shows what a big bag of vinegar and water he is. Like he's jealous. Another reason outside of football games watching ESPN is an utter waste of time.
It would be like saying Nettles would have been decent at SS.
Schmidt, especially. The guy was built like a OF, not a SS.
But he wasn't an outfielder!!!! Why are we even bringing that up?
I guess Pedro Martinez wasn't that good a player because he was a shitty hitter.
But he wasn't an outfielder!!!! Why are we even bringing that up?
I guess Pedro Martinez wasn't that good a player because he was a shitty hitter.
You're to one talking about putting Barry Bonds at SS. Maybe I misunderstood your point about Jeter being one of the best players at any position because he was one of the best SSs.
Everyone just said Jeter was a great player and first ballot HOF. I didnt see anyone saying he stinks.
But many of us do not think he is legendary player which is reserved for guys probably in the top 20-25 of all time.
First off, not everyone said it. And I'm not just going by this thread, but the years of Jeter hate.
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going on a real tear and winning 5 championships in a row now that they got that albatross Jeter off their neck. He was the only thing holding them back, apparently.
If only there were an undo button for this irrationality. Jeter was a great player, but perhaps no great player benefited more from his situation than Jeter.
What was irrational was all the complaints about Jeter the last few years. As if he was what was keeping them from winning. If you want to deny that this went on, fine. But It was horrible. You could not be on a Yankee game thread without hearing it over and over again. Like I said, I hope those whiners have fun complaining about the next guy.
It would be like saying Nettles would have been decent at SS.
Schmidt, especially. The guy was built like a OF, not a SS.
I disagree about Schmidt. For at least the majority of his career, his athleticism was very underrated. His arm was plenty strong. And believe it or not, he was actually the same size as Jeter but maybe an i nch taller. Now I am not saying he would have been a greatdefensive SS, cause you never know unless it happens, but I believe he could have more than held his own as a SS if need be.
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In comment 11879436 PaulBlakeTSU said:
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In comment 11879382 buford said:
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going on a real tear and winning 5 championships in a row now that they got that albatross Jeter off their neck. He was the only thing holding them back, apparently.
If only there were an undo button for this irrationality. Jeter was a great player, but perhaps no great player benefited more from his situation than Jeter.
And no one player did more to create that situation than Jeter. Between him and Posada, having premium offensive production at traditionally defense-oriented positions papered over a lot that was wrong with this lineup over the last two decades.
How many rings do the Yankees win if you replace Jeter with the likes of ARod, Tejada, Nomar, Rollins, Tulo, as your Shortstops. I bet the number is pretty close. Thats how good the Yankees were.
Disagree. While they may be more talented than Jeter, none of them have the clutch quality he had. Jeter is the whole package. Good fielding, great hitting, great leader and had the personality to fit NY. The others didn't. We've seen how Arod and Nomar flamed out. I'll never forget Nomar sitting on the bench while his whole team was up on their feet during that game where Jeter crashed into the stands. I think he was traded soon after that.
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In comment 11879441 Dunedin81 said:
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In comment 11879436 PaulBlakeTSU said:
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In comment 11879382 buford said:
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going on a real tear and winning 5 championships in a row now that they got that albatross Jeter off their neck. He was the only thing holding them back, apparently.
If only there were an undo button for this irrationality. Jeter was a great player, but perhaps no great player benefited more from his situation than Jeter.
And no one player did more to create that situation than Jeter. Between him and Posada, having premium offensive production at traditionally defense-oriented positions papered over a lot that was wrong with this lineup over the last two decades.
How many rings do the Yankees win if you replace Jeter with the likes of ARod, Tejada, Nomar, Rollins, Tulo, as your Shortstops. I bet the number is pretty close. Thats how good the Yankees were.
Disagree. While they may be more talented than Jeter, none of them have the clutch quality he had. Jeter is the whole package. Good fielding, great hitting, great leader and had the personality to fit NY. The others didn't. We've seen how Arod and Nomar flamed out. I'll never forget Nomar sitting on the bench while his whole team was up on their feet during that game where Jeter crashed into the stands. I think he was traded soon after that.
I would put a good chunk of money that the Yankees would have won some WS if Arod (who was a far superior player to Jeter when the Yanks won the last of those 4 WS.) Nomar, Tejada or Rollins were the SS. Those are all HOF are Hall of very good players who would not bring a team down to the point of costing them titles.
And this whole ARod chokes in the postseason thing is one of the most overblown things I have ever read. He his .333 in Seattle, and had some really good series up until the 2010 ALCS where things went down hill. His 2009 performance was unworldly.
Yeah because playing in Boston and Philly is like playing in like Monatana haha.
Nomar hit over .320 in his playoff career. So that correlates to like .220 if he played in New York, I suppose.