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NFT: Citizen Kane or Casablanca?

Anakim : 9/30/2014 9:06 pm
Which do you like better? Which is the better film? Who'd win in a fight: Rick Blaine or Charles Foster Kane? Are there wrong answers? There's always that one guy who'll say that one is overrated.
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I think the better question  
yankfan : 10/1/2014 9:46 am : link
Would be "Which would you watch first?" I'd start with CK, marvel in it's cinematography, camera angles, and points of view, then Casablanca for the story, the entertainment, and IB
An interesting perspective  
Bill2 : 10/1/2014 10:02 am : link
We some times think of movies as disposable fluff. Mainly because so so many of them are just that.

My father had just met my mother and was on his way to Europe the following Tuesday morning.

Their last date for two years...Saturday night at a theater in Times Square. Their lives and future up to fate. The movie was new. It was Casablanca. Pretty powerful stuff if viewed from that perspective and in those shoes

The impact of the movie on them rendered CK an artifact.

I do admire CK. Apples and oranges both deserve appreciation.



RE: An interesting perspective  
RC02XX : 10/1/2014 10:21 am : link
In comment 11893169 Bill2 said:
Quote:
My father had just met my mother and was on his way to Europe the following Tuesday morning.

Their last date for two years...Saturday night at a theater in Times Square. Their lives and future up to fate. The movie was new. It was Casablanca. Pretty powerful stuff if viewed from that perspective and in those shoes


In answering the OP's question, I think your statement above answers it best. While not a film buff, I can see how Citizen Kane is viewed by many critics and film buffs as one of the greatest movies made (for the same reason as stated above well by many). However, because I'm not a film buff, I base the movies I like on my own personal experiences and how the movie impacts me (similar with books) and less so on how well it's made. And that leads me to picking some shitty movies over much more acclaimed ones, according to my wife...:)

And it's Casablanca for me.
For people unfamiliar...  
Chris in Philly : 10/1/2014 10:34 am : link
with all of Kane's innovations, I recommend you watch it a second time with Roger Ebert's commentary track, which is available on many versions of the DVD and BluRay. It's informative and entertaining.
PEEJ's  
old man : 10/1/2014 12:50 pm : link
first comment.
CASABLANCA: Romance,politics,subtle humor,sexual implication(Bulgarian girl and Louie),mystery, a (somewhat) surprise ending.
If they had thrown in a 'who won the '38 WS?' question or something-sports, sort of, too.
" I'm shocked shocked that there's gambling going on"  
gtt350 : 10/1/2014 1:41 pm : link
.
RE:  
Anakim : 10/1/2014 1:42 pm : link
In comment 11893708 gtt350 said:
Quote:
.


Here's your winnings
I'm actually surprised  
section125 : 10/1/2014 2:12 pm : link
there is any question - Casablanca.

What is the most memorable thing from CK - "Rosebud"?

Lots of great lines in Casablanca. "round up the usual suspects..."

I guess that is why they make chocolate and vanilla ice cream - everybody ahs different tatses.
RE: 12 angry men  
pmmanning : 10/1/2014 2:48 pm : link
In comment 11892527 mattlawson said:
Quote:
...

12 guys in a room talking for 2 hours. Has to be the greatest movie with the smallest budget ever made.



We're doing the play 12 Angry Men but those only 6 of us so we have to be twice as mean
Overrated movies but I guess real movies had to start somewhere.  
Giants Fan in Steelers Land : 10/1/2014 4:41 pm : link
Watched CK a while ago and thought it was so fucking boring. Don't know what all the fuss was about. The lame twist/ending?

Casablanca was actually watchable but didn't live up to the over the top hype.

Maybe in their day they were groundbreaking or whatever but that kind of garbage production and acting doesn't fly today. Whoever creates an all time movie list and puts CK number 1 should be punched in the face. Artsy pretentious BS.
I'll take Citizen Kane every time - Rosebud  
PatersonPlank : 10/1/2014 4:41 pm : link
.
RE: Overrated movies but I guess real movies had to start somewhere.  
PEEJ : 10/1/2014 4:44 pm : link
In comment 11894112 Giants Fan in Steelers Land said:
Quote:
Watched CK a while ago and thought it was so fucking boring. Don't know what all the fuss was about. The lame twist/ending?

Casablanca was actually watchable but didn't live up to the over the top hype.

Maybe in their day they were groundbreaking or whatever but that kind of garbage production and acting doesn't fly today. Whoever creates an all time movie list and puts CK number 1 should be punched in the face. Artsy pretentious BS.


Yeah. Not enough explosions. Or CGI
liked CK but absolutely love Casablanca.  
Shirk130 : 10/1/2014 4:48 pm : link
Every scene is iconic, and it has some of the most memorable lines in movie history. I really like Maltese Falcon, enjoyed African Queen, but Casablanca gets me every time.
RE: Overrated movies but I guess real movies had to start somewhere.  
Chris in Philly : 10/1/2014 5:32 pm : link
In comment 11894112 Giants Fan in Steelers Land said:
Quote:
Watched CK a while ago and thought it was so fucking boring. Don't know what all the fuss was about. The lame twist/ending?

Casablanca was actually watchable but didn't live up to the over the top hype.

Maybe in their day they were groundbreaking or whatever but that kind of garbage production and acting doesn't fly today. Whoever creates an all time movie list and puts CK number 1 should be punched in the face. Artsy pretentious BS.


That's a very sophisticated take...
Mostly just trolling movie snobs with my over the top comments  
Giants Fan in Steelers Land : 10/1/2014 5:56 pm : link
but anyone who would really say citizen Kane is the greatest movie of all time is a douche. There's really just no way around.
I was really excited before I saw Kane  
Reese's Pieces : 10/2/2014 11:17 pm : link
for the first time. It was very impressive visually, and I liked it, but it's not really a film where you get involved with the characters. You just watch them. And I didn't get the "Rosebud" thing at all the first time. I have to watch it again.

Orson Welles was considered a boy genius in Hollywood after Kane, but he never made anything that good again and by the time he hit middle age he was turning out some really mediocre stuff. After Kane he is best remembered for the War of the Worlds radio drama that caused a greatly exaggerated panic in listeners.

I wouldn't downgrade Casablanca just because it was so popular. Just because the actors were contract studio players doesn't diminish the acting in the film. They created memorable characters that the audiences cared about.

And I would put up against Kane or any film that great scene late on the night that Rick saw Ilsa again. Rick is sitting at the bar in the dark getting drunk to kill the pain. "Of all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world, she walks into mine. Play it, Sam." Sam plays it and suddenly the door in the back is thrown open and there is Ilsa, framed in the great white light of the doorway. That's a Kane-worthy moment.

And Casablanca was Phil Rizzuto's favorite film.
Reese's...  
Chris in Philly : 10/3/2014 12:07 am : link
His follow up (Ambersons) would have been something else, but was taken out of his hands by the studio and butchered by their editors (including a traitorous Robert Wise). He did some excellent films* leading up to Touch of Evil, another film ruined by studio interference. If Welles broke out today, people who dismiss CK now would be tripping over their dicks to say what a genius he was. He was a real iconoclast.

*(fuck you Davidson)
Davidson probably doesn't realize  
Phil in LA : 10/3/2014 12:21 am : link
Slapshot was written by a chick.
Heh...  
Chris in Philly : 10/3/2014 12:25 am : link
.
Of American Film Institute's top 50 quotes of all time...  
manh george : 10/3/2014 1:58 am : link
Five were from Casablanca. Gone with the Wind was second, with two. That doesn't just come from clever lines, it comes from making a connection with the audience.

Citizen Kane was brilliant, but chilly. It broke new ground in film making, and Orson Wells was always brilliant. The fact that he got screwed on some of his later movies isn't part of the question, or the answer. I just think a movie can be terrific while also being fun. Casablanca was and is great fun to me.

The fact that this was Wells' first film and that he was only 25, is amazing to me, both as a directing accomplishment and that he aged himself up to old age so effectively. But, I have still found the movie unpleasant after the first to viewings. Not so Casablanca.
RE: Casablanca  
Nick in LA : 10/3/2014 2:20 am : link
In comment 11892831 deadkurtrulz said:
Quote:
Casablanca has great acting and that thing that is missing from all Hollywood flicks today. A story.

Apparently you only watch the big loud comic book movies that come out. There have been plenty of great movies with great stories in the last few years, you just aren't paying attention. I know it is hard to get caught up in the blockbusters because they are shoved in your face by advertisement but I promise you there are good even great films out there.
Citizen Kane is a great film  
Steve in South Jersey : 10/3/2014 6:12 am : link
Casablanca is more entertaining. I think it was a low budget "B" movie that came together very well.
RE: Have always enjoyed Casablanca.  
BMac : 10/3/2014 6:46 am : link
In comment 11892555 MaineGiantFan said:
Quote:
CK just doesn't do it for me. Recently watched The Searchers with John Wayne from 1956 or so. Not usually a Western fan but really enjoyed it.


Red River with Wayne, Montgomery Clift, and Walter Brennan is another top-shelf western, and a very good film, too.
RE: Overrated movies but I guess real movies had to start somewhere.  
BMac : 10/3/2014 7:03 am : link
In comment 11894112 Giants Fan in Steelers Land said:
Quote:
Watched CK a while ago and thought it was so fucking boring. Don't know what all the fuss was about. The lame twist/ending?

Casablanca was actually watchable but didn't live up to the over the top hype.

Maybe in their day they were groundbreaking or whatever but that kind of garbage production and acting doesn't fly today. Whoever creates an all time movie list and puts CK number 1 should be punched in the face. Artsy pretentious BS.


A Philistine's Philistine!
And while I'm on a roll...  
BMac : 10/3/2014 7:10 am : link
...(hold the Mayo, Virginia that is) let's not forget noirs like The Killers and Point Blank with one of the most genuine actors ever - Lee Marvin.
RE: Reese's...  
Reese's Pieces : 10/3/2014 9:59 pm : link
In comment 11896265 Chris in Philly said:
Quote:
His follow up (Ambersons) would have been something else, but was taken out of his hands by the studio and butchered by their editors (including a traitorous Robert Wise). He did some excellent films* leading up to Touch of Evil, another film ruined by studio interference. If Welles broke out today, people who dismiss CK now would be tripping over their dicks to say what a genius he was. He was a real iconoclast.

*(fuck you Davidson)


You're right, Chris. I had forgotten the studio battles. Ambersons was still a good film. By making such a great first film, Welles created expectations that no one could have met.
.  
Bill2 : 10/4/2014 9:12 am : link
This thread made me look up Casablanca on wiki. I found some fascinating things.

Very few of the actors were American. Most were European refugees. Many had been in concentration camps or prisons or had to flee. Some had relatives in or who had died in concentration camps. Therefore, the emotions we see in the battle of the anthem scene was overwhelmingly emotional in real life filming.

The reviews of the film were interesting. i resonated with aspects of four of them: 1) "Heroic schlock". I agree. tons of sterotypes and implausable twists and character growth

2) that worked because only in war (we had just invaded North Africa) could the films theme of sacrifice and compromise for the greater good tie all the pieces together.

3) Ilsa never could have gone with Rick. The film code forbade movies where women left their marriages. Pretty fascinating.

4) "When we see one cliche we laugh. When we see another stereotype we notice. When we see overly obvious sentimentality we cringe. When hundreds of them are artfully delivered we see a triumphant storytelling and a Homeric phenomenon". And i think that nails it. Its not a great film nor artful. It is an swept together phenomenon. " Its not great. Its just true when it was made. True today. And it will be true tomorrow"

Oddly...given the Speilberg discussion on the Sniper thread...I confessed to seeing to many of his otherwise good stuff in many of his films wrecked by sentimental appeals and mawkishness and sterotypes. Maybe he goes for the Casablanca effect...hundreds of cliches and sentiments combined to hopefully reach orchestral levels where sheer human appeal has a greatness critique cannot unbundle?
American Film Institute  
PEEJ : 10/4/2014 10:30 am : link
Top 100 Movies

Guess #1 and #2
AFI - ( New Window )
I hope giants fan in steeper land appreciates Casablanca some day...  
BlueLou : 10/4/2014 10:45 am : link
Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but soon, and for the rest of his life.
RE: I hope giants fan in steeper land appreciates Casablanca some day...  
Chris in Philly : 10/4/2014 10:59 am : link
In comment 11898006 BlueLou said:
Quote:
Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but soon, and for the rest of his life.


He'll always have Pittsburgh...
RE: Citizen Kane is a great film  
Klaatu : 10/4/2014 12:19 pm : link
In comment 11896319 Steve in South Jersey said:
Quote:
Casablanca is more entertaining. I think it was a low budget "B" movie that came together very well.


Casablanca was most certainly not "a low budget "B" movie." Michael Curtiz was the top Director at Warner Bros. at the time, and the legendary Hal B. Wallis oversaw every aspect of casting and production.

Casablanca by a mile.

Citizen Kane is a great movie, just like Gone With the Wind, City Lights, The Bicycle Thief, and a dozen others that made cinematic history, but none have stood the test of time quite like Casablanca. Many years ago, 60 Minutes did a segment on Casablanca, and asked if it was the greatest movie ever made. The answer was a resounding yes.
Casablanca was an 'A' film. It had the studio's top actors  
Reese's Pieces : 10/4/2014 6:46 pm : link
and its top writers and its top just about everything else. It's true that the studio did not expect it to be such a huge hit. The actors were mainly responsible for the popularity by creating such memorable characters. Also the book was excellent interweaving drama and comedy and putting good words in the mouths of the actors.

And I think that Bill2 is looking for a word other than cliché when describing was the plot was full of. By definition a cliché is something the audience has seen or heard so many times that they is tired of it. If Casablanca were full of clichés, audiences would have walked out.
Watching Casablanca right now  
buford : 10/4/2014 8:12 pm : link
.
.  
Bill2 : 10/4/2014 9:13 pm : link
Reese...not to be argumentative but just for fun of pushing the thought and seeing if it has merits lets think about some "cliches"

The rigid pompus German with a mustache who speaks like Snidely Whiplash and looks down his nose?

The corrupt local French policeman?

The slightly uncouth wiseguy cynical realist American who has some idealism and nobility when the key moment comes under the tough guy exterior? ( i dunno..Harrison Ford and Clint Eastwood are just two examples of careers made on the many movies with this cliche?)

The mixed up heroine who puts her perils of Pauline narrative in the hands of the hard boiled American man?

The furative sly sneak key to move the plot along( Peter Lorre made a career of this cliche)

The love lost triangle solved by walking away with the other rogue wingman? ( and owen wilson and vince vaughan never played this cliche? Newman, katherine ross and Redford never played this cliche?)

Falling in love in Paris in April? Been there done that ...its why you mention taking a girl to Paris in springtime...you dont even need to go if you mention it after her second sip...its that much of a cliche.

The lovers who have "our song" ( Say Anything for just one example)

The key romantic moments lit with streetlights through venetian blinds? (" lights flicker from the opposite loft while the heat pipes just cough making it all to precise and too clear that Johanna is not here"...from Dylans greatest song in 1965)

The life changing blinding summary truth conversation in the rain and fog with a major trip of separation in the offing? ( lets start with Love Actually ( a good example of a pile of cliches)

The bar filled with misfits, exiles and end of their rope? Lets think where we have seen this before and after Casablanca? Shane? Star Wars?

Man drinks his lost love sorrows away? and the woman shows up?

Naive innocent girl woman asks world weary American noble for a moral compass?

Woman pulls gun on man she has hidden feelings for and he walks closer and tells her to fire...she cant and her eyes mist over and he takes the gun she gently surrenders knowing she loves him?

Woman mists over having pangs of conscience for destroying the heart of a man she loved ( Kill Bill II )

I submit Casablanca is so cliche ridden it inspires homage to how well it portrayed them.

So...maybe Casablanca is loaded with enduring cliches as old as Eloise and Abelard?
Casablanca may be filled with cliches  
PEEJ : 10/4/2014 9:26 pm : link
but it's only because Casablanca invented them. You give examples of modern movies which use these cliches. Where did they get them ?

Bogie practically invented the anti-hero. Until Casablanca, the hero always wore the white hat and rode into the sunset with the girl.
.  
Bill2 : 10/4/2014 9:27 pm : link
Man primed for life changing romantic flight to a new life gets dear john letter just as the train ship plane automobile is leaving?

War rips lovers apart and they find each other years later only to realize their great moments where not fated to survive the strain of real life ( uh...the plot of Gone With the Wind in 1933)

Woman needs man and man must have his maid that no one can deny as time goes by?...uggh... thats a cliche that confesses its cliche...its still a memorable song which rises above its sentiment by virtue of its delivery.

Of all the gin joints in all the world she walked into mine...substitute coffee shop...classroom...workplace. now you have a cliche that describes what 50% of love affairs would say

I dunno...i think Casablanca has a lot of cliches
Peej  
Bill2 : 10/4/2014 9:32 pm : link
I dont know enough about pre war movies ...but i do know pre war stories....the reason the film resonates is that it taps into universally understood tropes.

Bogart played what writers wrote. And almost all stories lift adventures and fates from Homer or the romantic cliches of 1200 to 1850.
.  
Bill2 : 10/4/2014 9:39 pm : link
As for antiheroes...i dunno...what was in Lear, Macbeth, Hamlet, merchant of Venice?
Who were the first star crossed lovers separated by conflict? Romeo and Juliet or Adam and Eve? Or just about everyone ever?
.  
Bill2 : 10/4/2014 9:45 pm : link
Noble loner anti hero whose purpose in the world makes it impossible to be with his true love? Among other earlier cliches of cliches...Batman.

Whats more a re frame of a cliche than a comic hero?
I haven't seen CK since the late '70s, but I remember walking  
Ira : 10/4/2014 9:49 pm : link
out of the theatre thinking it was about taking a cheap shot at someone. Casablanca, in my mind, was a brilliant movie about love and war and how the two collided.
.  
Bill2 : 10/4/2014 9:52 pm : link
Orpheus and Eurdyce? Hero and Leander?

Stories endure because they tap into situations and feelings that are already recognizable, universal and timeless.

Imho.

Over and out for after all its just a movie and of i am posting this much its usually because of fatique and timezones
It has been years since I watched either one but I'll add my thoughts  
steve in ky : 10/4/2014 10:20 pm : link
I would say CK was the more important film if you are looking at the art form, but CB is the more entertaining movie to watch between the two. Of course it is all personal taste however but personally I wouldn't put either on my list of great movies that must combine both entertainment and the quality of the film itself. While I am sure more will come to mind after I hit submit these come to mind.

In no particular order.

Dr Zhivago
Lawrence of Arabia
On the Waterfront
2001 A Space Odyssey (although a little dated now)
Chinatown
The Godfather 1&2
To Kill a Mockingbird
Bridge over the river Kwai
Once upon a Time in the West
Shane
Sound of Music
Gone with the Wind
Wizard of Oz
North by Northwest


I am sure I will think of more, but these all come to mind of movies that were all great works of art but also entertaining at the same time, something most people would enjoy to sit down and watch.



The Old Testament has a boatload of cliches...  
manh george : 10/4/2014 10:39 pm : link
starting with the Ark, of course. Still popular.

What makes Casablanca wonderful is how it spins the cliches together into a really enjoyable whole. All of the pieces fit. Some of that was, I think, dumb luck. They started out to make a B movie, and didn't even have a completed script when they started shooting.

Again I go back to the fact that 5 of the top 50 of the American Film Institute's list of great quotes are from this single movie, with no other movie getting more than 2. That only happened because viewers loved the completed package, cliches and all.

I wonder how many other accidentally great movies there are. It's hard to think of any.
Once again, Casablanca was not a "B" movie. No way. No how.  
Klaatu : 10/5/2014 1:33 am : link
Jack Warner paid $20,000 for the film rights, an exorbitant amount for an unproduced play at the time. He outbid Louis B. Mayer by $15,000.

Warner wanted George Raft to play Rick. Raft had signed a long-term contract with Warner Bros. two years earlier, and Warner was hoping to turn him into a major star, just like the studio had done with another "little tough guy" who'd made his mark in gangster pictures - James Cagney. But, just like he did with High Sierra and The Maltese Falcon, Raft turned down the role, and as with those two pictures, Humphrey Bogart stepped into the roles and his career took off while Raft's floundered. He worked steadily for many years after that, but his career never came close to achieving the heights that Bogart's (or Cagney's) did.

Hal B. Wallis was only too happy to cast Bogart in the role. After the huge success of The Maltese Falcon, Bogart's next two pictures, All Through The Night and Across the Pacific, were okay critically and commercially, but didn't have the "wow" factor of Falcon, and the jury was still out on whether or not Bogart had the stuff that stars are made out of. Wallis was looking for a vehicle that would take Bogie to the next level, and he thought that Casablanca would do the trick. Turns out he was right. Even after Raft changed his mind and lobbied Warner to give him the role, Wallis stood fast, and Warner stood by him.

Warner also went to great lengths to secure the supporting cast that Wallis and Michael Curtiz wanted, convincing David O. Selznick to loan Paul Henreid and Ingrid Bergman to Warner Bros. to play Victor Laszlo and Ilsa Lund. Henreid wasn't too thrilled. He was used to playing romantic leading men, and the idea of playing second fiddle to Humphrey Bogart wasn't very appealing. Now, of course, although he went on to have a long film and TV career as both an actor and a director, outside of Casablanca (and maybe Now, Voyager), does anyone remember anything else Henreid did?

Also, Jack Warner was hoping to use Casablanca to jump-start the acting career of his step-daughter, Joy Page. You wouldn't use a "B" movie to do that for your kid, and neither did Warner. She played the young Bulgarian woman who doesn't have to sleep with Captain Renault because Rick helps her husband win at roulette. It was a minor, but pivotal role, and she received great reviews, but even with her step-father as the head of the studio, her career fizzled. Go figure.

Finally, although Warner could pinch pennies with the best of them (not in Harry Cohn's league, but close), he had very few problems with Casablanca running about $100,000 over its original $850,000 budget. He had great faith in Curtiz and Wallis who both seemed to have the Midas Touch as Director and Producer.

Oh, and as for an unfinished script, that was not uncommon in those "studio-system" days, and while some actors chafed at it, for others, like Bogart, who enjoyed improvisation, it was no big deal.
CiP - well played re Pittsburgh!  
BlueLou : 10/5/2014 6:50 am : link
That 100 best American films list is pretty awful though. Unforgiven at 99 is a crime, and way too much Spielberg at the expense of Bridges of Madison County alone. Star Wars 15th is another you gotta be kidding me.

Anyway IMO Seven Samuria leaves all American produced films in the dust IMO if you wanna talk about that GOAT. just look at how many times it's been remade with alternate clothes. And SS isn't even necessarily Kurosawa's greatest...

American film makers do kick ass in the musicals category however.
Inherit the Wind is also easily a top 50 American film too.  
BlueLou : 10/5/2014 6:54 am : link
But what do I know...
Bill, yes Casablanca is full of cliches  
buford : 10/5/2014 8:55 am : link
but it works. I think the difference between CB and the Speilberg cliches is that you are aware of Speilberg manipulating your feelings. And he's predictable. I do think his earlier work (except 1941 of course) was brilliant, but he kind of kept to a formula after that which colored his later stuff. I think Schindler's List is in and example where he didn't try to do so much manipulation. The story told itself, it didn't need it.
You make a lot of interesting points to think about, Bill  
Reese's Pieces : 10/6/2014 11:06 pm : link
I have to agree with you that Casablanca contained clichés. But don't forget that when Casablanca was made in 1941 talking movies were only 14 years old. I would say that Bogart probably invented the hard-boiled, cynical anti-hero that has been copied by so many over the years.

Also, WW II was still in its early stages. Germany had just conquered France and actors didn't have that much to go on when depicting SS officers. Anyway, I'd have to agree that the arrogant, aloof and brutal Nazi officer is a stereotype that has endured to this day, possibly because of its accuracy in a majority of cases.

I love that song, too. Sheer poetry.
The ghost of ’lectricity howls in the bones of her face.

FOr myself  
gidiefor : Mod : 10/7/2014 11:43 am : link
I'd rather watch Casablanca given the choice - it's one of the most entertaining classic movies ever made
Hey manh...  
Chris in Philly : 10/7/2014 11:53 am : link
I was considering your point about the top quotes. There's no doubt hat Casablanca has some great quotes that have become part of the lexicon, but Kane also has tons of great quotes. They just never became part of pop culture. Go back and watch it. There's some really, really wonderful lines in there that should have become more memorable.

Here's today's absurd analogy: Kane is the colder, more clinical affair. Historically great but not always the most accessible. Casablanca is the friendlier and more comfortable vehicle. Historically great, but more open and engaging. It's like Brady and Manning. Eh? EH?
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