from South Bend Tribune article covering ND football ... If Jints could get a draft mulligan, where should they have gone with 1st round pick?
Martin impresses
Zack Martin, Notre Dame's starting left tackle from 2010-13 has made quite an impression to date as a rookie offensive guard in the NFL.
So much so, in fact, that NFL.com analyst Gil Brandt would have drafted the Pinstripe Bowl MVP significantly higher if teams could do a draft do-over.
Martin, whose younger brother Nick is ND’s starting left guard, went 16th to the Cowboys in the real draft last May. The actual top five were 1. Jadeveon Clowney (DE), 2. Greg Robinson (OT), 3. Blake Bortles (QB), 4. Sammy Watkins (WR) and 5. Khalil Mack (OLB).
But in Brandt’s do-over draft, Brandt has Martin going fifth to the Oakland Raiders.
“The Cowboys took a lot of grief from their fans for passing on (Johnny) Manziel,” wrote Brandt, a former Dallas VP of personnel from 1960 to 1988. “And as tempting as it was for owner Jerry Jones to take the Texas A& M quarterback, the Cowboys stuck with their plan of building up their offensive line and took Martin with the 16th overall pick.
“Martin has paid immediate dividends, stepping in at right guard for the Cowboys from Day One. I thought he was a really good player coming out of Notre Dame (No. 14 in my Hot 100), but he has exceeded expectations. His pass protection is excellent, and his presence on the interior of the Cowboys' offensive line has helped them lead the league in rushing at 165.0 yards per game.”
The rest of the hypothetical top five are: 1. Bortles, 2. Jake Matthews (OT), 3. C.J. Mosley (LB) and 4. Watkins.
Link - (
New Window )
You only know what you know at the time you know it, ya know?
ODBJr may be the next Jerry Rice...
And Richburg has looked good so far.
If Beckham pans out, I think Reese did the right thing.
Wonderphil11 : 10:53 am : link : reply
OBJ play yet but I'm sure the Giants are quite happy with their "Martin"....and his name is Richburg so it's really a non-issue.
Agree 100%. I admit that I wanted Martin, but I wanted to Giants to plug him in at LT and not LG. Since Richburg has shown he's capable at the LG position (at least up to this point in time) it seems to be a wash and obviously more beneficial to the Giants if Beckman turns out to be what the team hopes for.
And Richburg has looked good so far.
If Beckham pans out, I think Reese did the right thing.
Additionally, Beatty, so far, has played much better than expected. So not taking Martin doesn't hurt as bad. If Beckham comes thru than Reese has done the right thing.
You only know what you know at the time you know it, ya know?
ODBJr may be the next Jerry Rice...
4 games in and Reese would already do a do over? Have you watched our 2nd round pick at all?
Amazing how we keep missing out on stud players year after year...
We weren't going to take Martin and Richburg, no chance in hell. And as good as Martin has played, Richburg has looked excellent for us as well with less OL talent surrounding him than Martin has. I really don't know how to compare Martin vs. Richburg yet, but they've been similar caliber players through 4 weeks.
So this comes down to how much better Beckham is than Richardson/Adams/Latimer/Robinson. Through 4 weeks, none of those guys has torn up the league. None of the 4 seem to be outright busts either and all have shown potential, but there's a good chance that Beckham ends up being clearly better than those guys. I've been watching Beckham vids and reading his draft prospect stuff the last couple of weeks, and I'm so excited to get him back.
Amazing how we keep missing out on stud players year after year...
Lol, ain't it though.
We have a future starter at Guard and a potentially game-breaking wideout. What exactly is the issue??
With that, I think we're all going to be happy with an ODB, Richburg, Kennard, Berhe, & Williams haul.
Never mind the fact that Martin is also playing with a slew of other 1st rounders, but we have a LG in Richburg that is improving by the day and looks like a great player. But lets keep harping on us missing out on Martin, who already is on his way to the HOF after 4 games.
Can we wait until we see the guy we drafted over him play ONE snap before we say we should have drafted Martin?
Schwartz because he looked like shit when he WAS healthy.
Again, nothing against Beckham and I hope he becomes a star, but Martin was the guy they should have taken and still taken Richburg in Round 2. Eric Moore and Jumbo Elliott redux.
Pretty much.. Not to mention, The Cowboys O line, haven't really been tested, outside of the 49ers. Evaluate Martin, when they go up against, better competition.
No he wouldn't. It would be a dumb move. Martin = good guard and second round receiver. ODB = low first round receiver + Richburg, good guard.
I like Gil Brandt quite a bit, but he is still a Dallas Cowboy at heart, and when he is speaking on anything related to Dallas you just have to take that into consideration. I'm not saying he wouldn't have high praise of Martin regardless, I'm sure he would have, but he does see things a little brighter when he's looking at a guy in a Dallas uniform, there's just no question about it.
Also, Brandt should know better than to be doing redrafts 4 games into the year, it's an exercise in futility.
And Richburg has looked good so far.
If Beckham pans out, I think Reese did the right thing.
Why not? Who's to say? It was the weakest position on the team and if Richburg was the best player on the board at 43, why wouldn't they have taken him.
We're doing fine, Richburg is as well and let's see what OBJ can do for us with the 12 games still left in the regular season.
Thanks. Can't resist another good sparring session over the draft. :-)
Quote:
who would Martin be playing over?
Schwartz because he looked like shit when he WAS healthy.
Again, nothing against Beckham and I hope he becomes a star, but Martin was the guy they should have taken and still taken Richburg in Round 2. Eric Moore and Jumbo Elliott redux.
And what makes you think Richburg would've been there...not too mention the extreme lack of playmakers on this team and the fact they would be waiting until the 3rd round to address this...oh yeah, what about Bromley, where do they find his replacement in this scenario....point is, when you state something as they "should have done", you should really think it through and understand the implications.
Link - ( New Window )
Quote:
In comment 11893322 Joe in Cambridge said:
Quote:
who would Martin be playing over?
Schwartz because he looked like shit when he WAS healthy.
Again, nothing against Beckham and I hope he becomes a star, but Martin was the guy they should have taken and still taken Richburg in Round 2. Eric Moore and Jumbo Elliott redux.
And what makes you think Richburg would've been there...not too mention the extreme lack of playmakers on this team and the fact they would be waiting until the 3rd round to address this...oh yeah, what about Bromley, where do they find his replacement in this scenario....point is, when you state something as they "should have done", you should really think it through and understand the implications.
1, Richburg was there, and 2, I am not a hindsight suggester of taking an OL in Rd1. I said it leading up to the draft and expressed this thought on draft day.
Sure he would have, but the point is he was made it work. And they did try in 1987 drafting WRs in 3 of the first 4 rounds.
Quote:
In comment 11893341 Victor in CT said:
Quote:
In comment 11893322 Joe in Cambridge said:
Quote:
who would Martin be playing over?
Schwartz because he looked like shit when he WAS healthy.
Again, nothing against Beckham and I hope he becomes a star, but Martin was the guy they should have taken and still taken Richburg in Round 2. Eric Moore and Jumbo Elliott redux.
And what makes you think Richburg would've been there...not too mention the extreme lack of playmakers on this team and the fact they would be waiting until the 3rd round to address this...oh yeah, what about Bromley, where do they find his replacement in this scenario....point is, when you state something as they "should have done", you should really think it through and understand the implications.
1, Richburg was there, and 2, I am not a hindsight suggester of taking an OL in Rd1. I said it leading up to the draft and expressed this thought on draft day.
and you're sure he would be there still once the picks change as you suggested...how so?
Why not? Who's to say? It was the weakest position on the team and if Richburg was the best player on the board at 43, why wouldn't they have taken him.
Jeff, I wanted Aaron Donald. However, I can see why the Gmen needed a WR. Specifically a true X receiver. You draft a PLAYMAKER with the #12 pick. A Donald or a Beckham. Not a guard. A great OLT prospect is fine also. They need an X receiver in the worst way. No one could have predicted the Giants would put up points with the alleged weak receiving corps we currently have.
DeMarco Murray has 327 yards BEFORE being contacted this year. There are only two other RBs who have more then 327 yards period.
The OL is young and has only played 4 games together. They should only improve as the season continues.
Can't wait for the Seattle game in two weeks. If they pass that test, you can crown them the best in the business.
Quote:
Why not? Who's to say? It was the weakest position on the team and if Richburg was the best player on the board at 43, why wouldn't they have taken him.
Jeff, I wanted Aaron Donald. However, I can see why the Gmen needed a WR. Specifically a true X receiver. You draft a PLAYMAKER with the #12 pick. A Donald or a Beckham. Not a guard. A great OLT prospect is fine also. They need an X receiver in the worst way. No one could have predicted the Giants would put up points with the alleged weak receiving corps we currently have.
Had Evans been there, I would agree with you. And don't get me wrong, I liked Beckham. I just think, given his size, he was taken too high. I thought they should have taken Martin then, and still do.
STFU ARCRASENAL
As of now the jury is still out on OBJ but one could definitely argue that the future looks bright if Richburg continues playing well.
I agree. You want to just grab those posters by the neck, knock on their wooden heads and yell, "Hello!!! Is any body home!!!???".
The best offensive line this franchise has had in 20 years contained a bunch of imports and castoffs from outside, and low draft picks. and Chris Snee.
If martin was really viewed as a cant miss LT he would have been picked higher
It allowed the Giants brass to concentrate on getting the team better by grabbing a much needed playmaker.
In the end, the Giants agreed with my take and DID NOT draft Martin when they had the chance. Those who think otherwise are not thinking the way the Giants do. And I happy they were wrong.
When teams start clamping down on the underneath stuff and OBJ makes them pay over the top, we won't be regretting Martin.
To be fair, the apt comparison is the Beckham and Richburg vs Martin and whatever WR would have been best in the second.
But in any case, we should see Beckham play a few games before making the comparison.
Pugh and Richburg. The confort level with these guys keeps climbing
Quote:
The Giants used their 2nd round pick to get a good young LG. Both players look like they will be solid NFL players and building blocks for their teams. The difference is that the Giants were able to wait on OL and take Odell Beckham in the first. I know people are frustrated waiting for OBJ, but they need to go back and look at his tape from LSU. The guy is a playmaker with great hands and will become a weapon and fan favorite very soon.
To be fair, the apt comparison is the Beckham and Richburg vs Martin and whatever WR would have been best in the second.
But in any case, we should see Beckham play a few games before making the comparison.
That's correct. I'm a fan of the Beckham pick, hamstring injuries be damned. Just for fun, the WRs drafted in round 2 after the Richburg pick:
Paul Richardson
Davante Adams
Cody Latimer
Allen Robinson
Jarvis Landry
You don't take a guard that high, you just don't. You try to hit a homerun with a game changing type player, which OBJ could potentially be.
The Giants can easily grab a guard next year in the draft, that is a guarantee. There is no guarantee the potential of an OBJ player might be there when they pick.
The only thing we have to do in the draft of 2015 is try and spot the next OLT in mid rounds to be coached up over a 2 year period. We need solid backups for the Oline, that's it.
Hopefully the Giants can concentrate on linebackers and safeties next draft. Sucks that Cooper Taylor never got to see the field this year so we still do not know what we have in him.
ZM is part of a good young OL core in Dallas, but their D is held together with Silly Putty and baling wire and have likely alrady played their best.
And theres always the jerruh running that '15 draft.
Lets be thankful for what we have seen hope what we've seen these last 2 games can continue against the better competition.
GO BIG BLUE!
Gun down those (dirty) 'Birds' Sunday.
Quote:
I think you're a good poster but you have to let this one go buddy. Been banging that drum way too hard. Richburg and Beckham were both great picks. The o-line is coming together fine without Martin.
Thanks. Can't resist another good sparring session over the draft. :-)
It isn't really a sparring session when you're beating a dead horse.
And Richburg has looked good so far.
If Beckham pans out, I think Reese did the right thing.
I've read this countless times and I disagree. Why would taking Martin have prevented us taking Richburg in the 2nd? Our line was abysmal last year so taking 2 stud linemen back to back wouldn't have been so crazy at all. Then take a WR in the 3rd. I am anxious to see what Beckham brings and I think, if healthy, he can be a good to very good WR. That being said, I would've taken Martin all day over him. You don't pass up a Pro Bowl type lineman who can play all 5 positions on the line especially coming off a year where your o-line was pitiful.
They NEEDED to protect Eli and keep him upright.
They can and should continue to prioritize the OL over the skill position players this offseason. Don't let what happened the previous years ever happen again.
Eli is our best player and the only true advantage we have in this division. Protect him at all costs.
They NEEDED to protect Eli and keep him upright.
They can and should continue to prioritize the OL over the skill position players this offseason. Don't let what happened the previous years ever happen again.
Eli is our best player and the only true advantage we have in this division. Protect him at all costs.
This. And its not just about Eli. A better running game helps your QB and while the line has been better going Martin then Richberg would have been fine with me.
I guess Young was dumb for drafting Elliot and Roberts who anchored two SuperBowl lines years ago in the same draft. No he wasn't
Anyone who says that they didn't desperately need a #1 wideout are fools with no knowledge either of the team and it's drafting history, or of the NFL game.
The stage was set to protect Eli early on, and was wisely added to with Richberg. I would expect them to draft another combo Guard/Tackle next year if the value is there. The Giants take the long view, and it's absolutely the way to go.
Probably not because of who they got in round 2.
Given a do-over they draft WR because its a huge need today. My guess is that guy from LSU
Apparently you do when you just drafted one the year prior(Pugh) and see offensive line value in the 2nd round(Richburg).
I'm surprised comments like this are still trickling in after the recent performances by Beatty, Richburg and co. The Giants offense is humming along without Zack Martin(and yes, without Beckham).
The entire preseason, when the offense was in a funk and Beckham was MIA all we heard was that the line was a mess, and that the Giants didn't put high enough priority on fixing it, and instead spent their top pick on a WR.
The Giants really haven't prioritized the OL over skill position position players. They grabbed Schwartz and used a second round pick on Richburg, but the crown jewel of their off-season acquisitions was the #12 pick, and they went WR.
Yes, the offense has looked strong the last two weeks without this #1 WR, but so too has the offensive line without the Giants top offensive free agent in Schwartz.
Anyone who says that they didn't desperately need a #1 wideout are fools with no knowledge either of the team and it's drafting history, or of the NFL game.
BMac, this is so true. Need proof? Well, just who did the NY Giants decide to pick? Martin or Beckham? Some posters just don't get it. It's almost a miracle the Giants offense has done this well w/o a replacement for Nicks.
If the Giants kept Gilbride and drafted Martin, they'd be lucky to average 10 offensive points per game.
And let's not presume the OL is "fixed" because of the offense has looked just this year. One four game stretch does not outweigh the previous year plus of dog crap play. They need to continue to address the OL otherwise they're asking for another disaster in the near future.
Quote:
if you keep believing that, you are fooling yourselves.
They NEEDED to protect Eli and keep him upright.
They can and should continue to prioritize the OL over the skill position players this offseason. Don't let what happened the previous years ever happen again.
Eli is our best player and the only true advantage we have in this division. Protect him at all costs.
This. And its not just about Eli. A better running game helps your QB and while the line has been better going Martin then Richberg would have been fine with me.
I guess Young was dumb for drafting Elliot and Roberts who anchored two SuperBowl lines years ago in the same draft. No he wasn't
It was Moore and Elliott taken the same year in 1988. And Moore, IMO, can only be considered a failed pick. Never lived up to his #10 overall pick (again, a guard that high is not a good pick). Was even replaced in SB 25 by Bob Kratch at halftime I believe. And was removed from other games as well by Parcells for effort.
And let's not presume the OL is "fixed" because of the offense has looked just this year. One four game stretch does not outweigh the previous year plus of dog crap play. They need to continue to address the OL otherwise they're asking for another disaster in the near future.
Did I say otherwise, anywhere? No point in responding to this noise until you actually read what I wrote. My statement simply lays out why they weren't going to take Martin, or any interior OL, with the # 12 pick, period.
The amount of hand wringing over this dude is unreal.
You would draft both of them, even after having had signed: Geoff Schwartz, J.D. Walton, and John Jerry? Who's riding the bench?
That would be a waste of dollars and picks that could be used elsewhere.
and specials as a gunner.
Quote:
and likely have our OL issues solved for the duration of Eli's tenure. One major problem with that theory is how do you know the 'Boys don't grab Richburg with Martin gone? I mean Headhunter here is giving Richburg a first round grade already; maybe the Cowboys' scouts saw that too?
You would draft both of them, even after having had signed: Geoff Schwartz, J.D. Walton, and John Jerry? Who's riding the bench?
That would be a waste of dollars and picks that could be used elsewhere.
No one is going to listen. Just a bunch of non-compos.
I don't see any long term problem with drafting 3 premium OL (including Pugh) over a 2 year span. OK if they all turn out to be pro bowl quality OL maybe that's a cap problem 4 years down the road.... In the mean while you have great OL depth and youth and no need for Reynolds/Brewer - two at best marginal roster guys - on the 53 at all.
If there's anything to learn at all from these past two games it's that protecting Eli and having a solid running game is more important than shiny hood ornaments like Beckham. Of course I hope Beckham proves me wrong, too!
Strengthen the OL. The rules pretty much guarantee as long as you have competent WR's, you can put up numbers in the league now.
Strengthen the OL. The rules pretty much guarantee as long as you have competent WR's, you can put up numbers in the league now.
I don't disagree with you. Again, I refer you back to my original statement. It's not who I value, it's who the Giants value. Since Accorsi, the O-line has gotten less attention than the skill positions. If a premium defender or Tackle had been available then there may have been some changes in selection.
Donald was there, but he simply didn't fit the profile; as a later 1st round pick he may have become a viable choice for them.
They absolutely, positively needed a #1 receiver to replace Nicks. I hope that Beckham is that guy, because it will change this O radically if he is. I believe they would have taken a TE in the 3rd if anyone had been there that they liked.
A Center/Guard in the second was an inspired choice and exactly fits their draft mantra. Richberg certainly has worked out well so far. Again, as I said earlier, I expect them to take a T/G in round 2 or 3 next year. However, how high they pick one is dependent on how the current OL, and Schwartz when he returns, performs for the rest of this season.
Just because you don't know of or approve of the names on the linemen doesn't mean this unit isn't drastically improved and obviously more effective. All it takes is watching the games to see it.
HAVE to pick an O-lineman, MUST go playmaker with an early pick, CAN'T take two lineman with first two picks, NEVER pick a Guard that early, a good WR would NOT be there in 2nd round.
The Draft is anything but an absolute.
The one good thing going for the Giants in the 2014 Draft was that the team has so many short/long terms needs that Reese could have gone in almost any direction, as long has he felt he was grabbing quality players.
Save the re-evaluation talk for 2-3 years from now...
That doesn't change the fact that you're a schmuck.