Less than a year after the British government realised that the hike in tuition fees accomplished absolutely nothing besides landing students in more debt, Germany has decided to abolish fees for all universities. What's the German word for "deep regret at choosing the wrong place of study, tinged with envy and bitterness"?
Lower Saxony is the final German state to scrap tuition fees, meaning that all German universities are free of charge for all students – and yes, that includes overseas students.
"Tuition fees are socially unjust," Dorothee Stapelfeldt, senator for science in Hamburg, told the Times. The state scrapped fees in 2012. "They particularly discourage young people who do not have a traditional academic family background from taking up studies. It is a core task of politics to ensure that young women and men can study with a high quality standard free of charge in Germany."
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This will likely reduce the quality of the professors there, as well, but it's a tactic that they have taken that they feel is desirable. Good on them.
It won't work in the U.S. for a variety of reasons (notably taxation and spending), but there is also other forces at work.
What do you think this will do to the educated youth labor force that is suffering from severe unemployment and undermployment in Europe?
In very rare circumstances do we take students and put them in academies (centralized locations for athletes), where sports takes a priority over education.
Not so in Europe; quite a few promising youths, who will never enter the pro leagues, enter these academies at young ages.
it's just part of the culture that a US university has to provide special events and community spirit. i know people for whom the college community experience is one of the most central events of their lives, they have a lifelong attachment to the university.
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but if the only thing separating us from sending 22 year olds out into the world with BA degrees and zero debt burden is college football, we fucking suck. It isn't.
it's just part of the culture that a US university has to provide special events and community spirit. i know people for whom the college community experience is one of the most central events of their lives, they have a lifelong attachment to the university.
I love UVA, but if I could trade my debt burden (which is comparably modest) for their football and basketball teams I sure as hell would. Ask the kid walking out of undergrad $150K in the hole if he loves his Nittiny Lions or his Fighting Irish that much.
You're not paying now so you pay more in the future. It's a tradeoff they are willing to make.
Beyond that, their faculty compensation appears to be well below that of US institutions. This link goes back a number of years, but I think even back than a full tenured professor in the US was making more than 75K per year. I'd also be interested if they had as many administrative positions as US universities do.
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And the sooner major college athletics is disbanded, the better.
The best/coolest American universities are places like The University of Chicago and NYU, where sports has been eliminated, frats de-emphasized, and intellectual talent rewarded.
The so-called "college experience" is a joke.
I don't know enough about it, but it certainly seems like something other than the goal of educating people.
1) use any admission criteria rather than the completion of an Abitur (high school diploma requiring standardized exams)
I wonder how much (in effect) we are moving in the same direction here without it being explicitly stated. I haven't tried to research it at all, but I have friends teaching in several state universities where the student body has increased like crazy over the last 10 years or so (double the number of students on campus in one case that I am aware of). From what I understand, they are using increased tuition revenues to offset declining dollars from the states. I don't know how widespread that model is, but there is no way you can do that without quality going down over time.
if you scraped the current system of pell grants and other funding put that money towards free public university
it would take about an additional 40 billion a year
which seems like alot until you realize that we spent 70 billion in Afghanistan in 2013
Nothing is free.
How many students from other countries attended American universities to receive their undergrad, grad, or doctorate degrees?
How many American students attended universities outside of the US to receive their undergrad, grad, or doctorate degrees?
America isn't sending their best students out of the country for higher education.
The best students from all over the world come to America for education. That should tell you something.
I just don't think a lot of programs that are successful in European nations would be viable or sustainable here.
jbeintherockies : 10/1/2014 9:47 pm : link : reply
This has already been said, but I will say it again.
Nothing is free.
How many students from other countries attended American universities to receive their undergrad, grad, or doctorate degrees?
How many American students attended universities outside of the US to receive their undergrad, grad, or doctorate degrees?
America isn't sending their best students out of the country for higher education.
The best students from all over the world come to America for education. That should tell you something.
Absolutely. The elite students from all over the world come here to mingle with our elite students and receive the best education they can get, anywhere.
On the other hand, however, a substantial portion of our non-elite students have been majoring in hook-ups, binge drinking and parties since high school, and graduate from college (if they do) without much in the way of marketable skills, but with a nice non-dischargable student loan.
2) Lots of stuff going on under Eurosocialism will work great until accelerating technological change and a collapsing work force relative to retirees catches up with them. The structure will probably last longer in Germany than many other countries, but eventually fertility rates around 1.4 in many Eurosocialist countries, plus lengthening life expectancies, are going to make these structures non-workable. The average fertility rate for the entire EU is 1.55. 2.1 is break-even.
3) In case no one noticed, Western Europe is in recession, or very close to it. Japan-style deflation is a real threat.
If they can't grow their economies, all this free stuff is going to get very expensive to the taxpayers in a hurry.
As a reminder, this is what a 1.4 fertility rate looks like, over the long run.
Europe's population will take longer to get there, but only because they have been willing to bring in low-skilled workers, many from Muslim countries. Watch how that works after a couple of terrorist attacks, which seem inevitable.
The best students from all over the world come to America for education. That should tell you something.
I know quite a few people who've attended universities overseas. And, a lot of foreign folks who study here either do so because of the opportunities/benefits America as a whole presents outside of education, or simply because they're intrigued by America.
I mean, let's not act like our average university provides a caliber of education unmatched elsewhere in the world.
For one group to graduate with no debt becomes a huge advantage. However, the doesn't mean the debt isn't worth it for some, probably the significantly above average, two standard deviations or more....
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America isn't sending their best students out of the country for higher education.
The best students from all over the world come to America for education. That should tell you something.
I know quite a few people who've attended universities overseas. And, a lot of foreign folks who study here either do so because of the opportunities/benefits America as a whole presents outside of education, or simply because they're intrigued by America.
I mean, let's not act like our average university provides a caliber of education unmatched elsewhere in the world.
There are a myriad of surveys out there, but virtually all of the rankings of world universities have US institutions as 8 out of the Top 10, 15 out of the Top 20 and 30 out of the Top 50 schools. If you're not looking at the top then a German technical school (not university) might be better than a US community college, but there is a very real, academic reason for many foreign students to want to study in the US.
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America isn't sending their best students out of the country for higher education.
The best students from all over the world come to America for education. That should tell you something.
I know quite a few people who've attended universities overseas. And, a lot of foreign folks who study here either do so because of the opportunities/benefits America as a whole presents outside of education, or simply because they're intrigued by America.
I mean, let's not act like our average university provides a caliber of education unmatched elsewhere in the world.
The median U.S. university is better than the median university most other places, with the possible exception of the UK.
Lower hours worked, higher taxes, etc.
It then depends on the amount of the debt.
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In comment 11894587 jbeintherockies said:
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America isn't sending their best students out of the country for higher education.
The best students from all over the world come to America for education. That should tell you something.
I know quite a few people who've attended universities overseas. And, a lot of foreign folks who study here either do so because of the opportunities/benefits America as a whole presents outside of education, or simply because they're intrigued by America.
I mean, let's not act like our average university provides a caliber of education unmatched elsewhere in the world.
The median U.S. university is better than the median university most other places, with the possible exception of the UK.
We also have a massive system of higher education so that at the margins the education may be quite poor (and I would take even a lesser UK university over some of the barely accredited diploma mills this side of the Atlantic) but farther up the food chain the opportunity for education - sometimes an opportunity that students don't seize for a variety of reasons discussed above - is quite good.
And even some of the lower tier universities provide services (online courses for non-traditional students) that serve a population quite different from the traditional, lower tier UK schools.
Must be nice to have the luxury of tackling another social and moral imperative since universal healthcare is already taken care of. That's it. Just my thought on the subject, nothing more, out.
Must be nice to have the luxury of tackling another social and moral imperative since universal healthcare is already taken care of. That's it. Just my thought on the subject, nothing more, out.
The zero or near-zero tuition is nothing new - has been true for decades in Germany. So it is not something new that they are tackling.
Oh yeah, and good luck selling America on a German tax burden.
Once people get over that fact, maybe we can have meaningful talks about what a coherent, sustainable social safety system looks like.
The median U.S. university is better than the median university most other places, with the possible exception of the UK.
Not to be an ass but according to who and using what metrics?
It's hard for those from Eastern Europe. Just try getting in from North Africa...
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I mean, let's not act like our average university provides a caliber of education unmatched elsewhere in the world.
The median U.S. university is better than the median university most other places, with the possible exception of the UK.
Not to be an ass but according to who and using what metrics?
Largely using papers on the returns to various tiers of education here and abroad, for 2 year colleges (or equivalent elsewhere).
The higher returns in the U.S. COULD BE from ability, but I don't think so. They also could be from labor supply, but that's incorporated in debt and taxes, and thus captured in returns.
So, largely an extrapolation on my part.
Schools have been trying to blame states for mushrooming tuition costs, but that's bullshit. State aid has declined in relative terms and in many instances in absolute terms as well, but to blame that for the increase when most schools of consequence have turned over the bulk of their classrooms and dorms at least once, sometimes more, in the last quarter-century and added extravagant fitness and common spaces makes that poppycock. Schools have not had to make hard decisions about budgeting because of the almost infinite supply of low-interest loans available to students.
My alma mater, UVM, generated $100 mil in a capital campaign to build a beautiful new student center. It is beautiful, it would have been nice to have something like that when I attended, but it also would have been nice to see $100 mil spent on reducing tuition and/or increasing financial aid instead of blaming the state for the ever-increasing tab even as you're overhauling pretty much the entire university in a generation.
It's hard for those from Eastern Europe. Just try getting in from North Africa...
Not sure what you mean here - I see lots of Poles, Romanians, Bulgarians working in German factories where my in-laws live. Foreign born population in Germany is 12% (us 14%) according to UN.
Now if you are talking about them having political rights within Germany, I don't think most Germans feel an imperative to offer that to them.
The recent law change in 2005 made it easier for high-skilled professionals to enter the labor market, while it closed it significantly for low-skilled professionals. For non-EU immigrants, it's very hard to enter the labor market (the requirement is 3 years of consistent job experience or a technical/university degree).
So, I should have been more specific; non-EU Eastern Europeans have a tough time migrating unless they are classified as "skilled".
It's partly the nature of the country (no significant energy or agricultural resources that can soak those up like a sponge), and partly a symptom of Europe (Germany is one of the more liberal immigration restriction countries out there).
The recent law change in 2005 made it easier for high-skilled professionals to enter the labor market, while it closed it significantly for low-skilled professionals. For non-EU immigrants, it's very hard to enter the labor market (the requirement is 3 years of consistent job experience or a technical/university degree).
ok, my observations might be just local in nature - in my wife's hometown area, the young germans tend to move away and they bring in Eastern Europeans to work at the various food processing plants, gambling machine factories, etc.
But I'm not sure about the basis for your criticism of their policy. Is it bad economics or bad morally? (Note that my knowledge of economics is rudimentary, I am posting as an interested observer of German society since I am married to a German.)
It tends to be that high-skill immigration brings more positives than low-skill, but not always the case (depends on who you bring over).
And my observations are perhaps from more depressed regions (significant number of close acquaintences from Eastern Europe), who have incentives to limit direct competition for their jobs.
Morally, I am more opposed to the seemingly stringent limitations on immigration. Being born in a country should not limit upward mobility. So, while I am more critical of the European immigration model, perhaps I'm biased since I live in an area where immigration is encouraged and welcomed.
So, I should have been more specific; non-EU Eastern Europeans have a tough time migrating unless they are classified as "skilled".
oh ok, non-EU is a different story.
I guess I was going back to your original statement that cited a "social imperative", and trying to figure out what that meant.
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is "free migration" between those places (though restrictions apply).
So, I should have been more specific; non-EU Eastern Europeans have a tough time migrating unless they are classified as "skilled".
oh ok, non-EU is a different story.
I guess I was going back to your original statement that cited a "social imperative", and trying to figure out what that meant.
Ah, my apologies.
My response to a "social imperative" is that no countries social policy (social safety nets, immigration, free trade, ease of business, tax policy) is uniformly better than others.
Certain countries have prioritized some policies over others. So, while Germany is incredibly more progressive in certain areas than the U.S. (and, in my mind, better in some areas), they are less progressive in others.
The nature of tradeoffs was my only point.
It tends to be that high-skill immigration brings more positives than low-skill, but not always the case (depends on who you bring over).
And my observations are perhaps from more depressed regions (significant number of close acquaintences from Eastern Europe), who have incentives to limit direct competition for their jobs.
Morally, I am more opposed to the seemingly stringent limitations on immigration. Being born in a country should not limit upward mobility. So, while I am more critical of the European immigration model, perhaps I'm biased since I live in an area where immigration is encouraged and welcomed.
ok thank you. German attitudes about immigration are changing and they may yet see immigration the way many in the US do. But the Germans I interact with find it hard to deal with a multicultural model (although they don't produce enough babies for any alternative!) It's probably easier for their politicians to work within the EU model than go for the step of letting in significant numbers of people from areas of unrest (former Yugoslavia, Ukraine).
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In terms of the economics, it depends. Both low-skill and high-skill workers bring significant value to a home country, but it does displace native workers and can be a drain on domestic resources.
It tends to be that high-skill immigration brings more positives than low-skill, but not always the case (depends on who you bring over).
And my observations are perhaps from more depressed regions (significant number of close acquaintences from Eastern Europe), who have incentives to limit direct competition for their jobs.
Morally, I am more opposed to the seemingly stringent limitations on immigration. Being born in a country should not limit upward mobility. So, while I am more critical of the European immigration model, perhaps I'm biased since I live in an area where immigration is encouraged and welcomed.
ok thank you. German attitudes about immigration are changing and they may yet see immigration the way many in the US do. But the Germans I interact with find it hard to deal with a multicultural model (although they don't produce enough babies for any alternative!) It's probably easier for their politicians to work within the EU model than go for the step of letting in significant numbers of people from areas of unrest (former Yugoslavia, Ukraine).
Agreed. I'm Dutch, and for as liberal as they are, they have imposed much more stringent restrictions on immigration that I don't agree with (and the rationale behind it depends on how cynical you want to be).
As you mentioned, people will and are changing their ways. This will be yet another of those.
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In terms of the economics, it depends. Both low-skill and high-skill workers bring significant value to a home country, but it does displace native workers and can be a drain on domestic resources.
It tends to be that high-skill immigration brings more positives than low-skill, but not always the case (depends on who you bring over).
And my observations are perhaps from more depressed regions (significant number of close acquaintences from Eastern Europe), who have incentives to limit direct competition for their jobs.
Morally, I am more opposed to the seemingly stringent limitations on immigration. Being born in a country should not limit upward mobility. So, while I am more critical of the European immigration model, perhaps I'm biased since I live in an area where immigration is encouraged and welcomed.
ok thank you. German attitudes about immigration are changing and they may yet see immigration the way many in the US do. But the Germans I interact with find it hard to deal with a multicultural model (although they don't produce enough babies for any alternative!) It's probably easier for their politicians to work within the EU model than go for the step of letting in significant numbers of people from areas of unrest (former Yugoslavia, Ukraine).
It's interesting, people talk about the difference in fertility rates between France and Germany as though the French are somehow more fertile, but they're almost exclusively a function of immigration policies. If France treated its North African immigrants the way the Germans treated their Turkish workers their birthrates would be very similar, and if the Germans extended full citizenship and welcomed families as opposed to merely workers theirs would again be comparable.
Fertility in France is around 2.0, but Sudan, for example, is over 4. Split France into long time residents vs recent immigrants and I bet the long-time resident rate is right down in the 1.4 range.
Finally, as I understand it, all European countries use standardized testing to separate college-bound students versus vocational training at an early age, around 13 years old. So, all of you BBIers who did only OK in the SATs but went on to college, like me, would instead would have been a well-trained vocational worker. Nothing wrong with that, of course, but your life options would be a lot more limited.
Fertility in France is around 2.0, but Sudan, for example, is over 4. Split France into long time residents vs recent immigrants and I bet the long-time resident rate is right down in the 1.4 range.
I've seen the stats before, a couple years ago, and I think it's even a little lower than that.
Finally, as I understand it, all European countries use standardized testing to separate college-bound students versus vocational training at an early age, around 13 years old. So, all of you BBIers who did only OK in the SATs but went on to college, like me, would instead would have been a well-trained vocational worker. Nothing wrong with that, of course, but your life options would be a lot more limited.
Not so simple, it is not just testing but also teacher and parent input that determines the high school track - and there are 3 paths, vocational, Realschule, and Gymnasium. (Acually the vocational/Realschule split takes place around 16.) I have asked Germans what they do with "late bloomers" and they say that folks do move from Realschule to Gymnasium. From what I've seen Realschule is like high school without AP and Gymnasium is like high school with AP.
I've come away with the conclusion that it is not as drastic as it appears, but I still wonder about it.
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money to spend on education by supporting colleges and universities. Also, as I understand it, throughout Europe, if you want to participate in sports, then it's your cost to join sports clubs- imagine if U. S. colleges and universities did not have to support the various sports programs.
Finally, as I understand it, all European countries use standardized testing to separate college-bound students versus vocational training at an early age, around 13 years old. So, all of you BBIers who did only OK in the SATs but went on to college, like me, would instead would have been a well-trained vocational worker. Nothing wrong with that, of course, but your life options would be a lot more limited.
Not so simple, it is not just testing but also teacher and parent input that determines the high school track - and there are 3 paths, vocational, Realschule, and Gymnasium. (Acually the vocational/Realschule split takes place around 16.) I have asked Germans what they do with "late bloomers" and they say that folks do move from Realschule to Gymnasium. From what I've seen Realschule is like high school without AP and Gymnasium is like high school with AP.
I've come away with the conclusion that it is not as drastic as it appears, but I still wonder about it.
sorry, this thread has been about Germany so I'm talking about Germany...don't know about other European countries.