As Eric pointed out in the Game Review, it is probably time for Quinn to go. But frankly, as much as Quinn has been mediocre at best, Coughlin has to carry some of that weight, and not just in a "the head coach is responsible for everything" passive way.
I'm generally a TC fan, and I think TC does care about STs, or at least gives lip service to it. But, it seems he cares about having a good punter and kicker, but that's about where it ends. He wishes our return game was better but without putting much action behind that wish beyond trying different guys back there from time to time.
First, our return game has sucked for years. I can't think of a time under him we have been anything beyond about average, and have never had a Hester-like threat back there. He won't devote a roster spot to that. If it was really that important to him, we would be willing to do that. This year, we've been down right impotent on returns.
Second, he's kept Quinn around this long. If he cared enough he'd have found a more innovative ST coach.
Third, he'd invest more in it. Philly has very good STs. It's clear their coaches care a lot about it. They got good return guys. They say they put a lot of practice time into STs, and the broadcasters talked about how their HC said he's very involved in that aspect of practice. If STs were that important, we'd devote more time to it. Not just this year, but regularly. How much time is enough? I can't give a number, but it's clearly more than we're spending now. And, the radio team (I caught the end of the game from my car) were pointing out how we fail to block opponent's gunners again and again. This isn't new. Our kick return blocking has been terrible for ages.
Fourth, we don't really use STs to their full effect. A fake punt or kick every now and then could help turn momentum around, and possibly get an extra possession. At the very least it's something for the other teams to spend time on in game prep. I don't think we've tried even one purposeful fake punt or kick that I can remember under TC. Not one. (Similarly, we haven't used a flea flicker or other "trick" play.) Think of how well a guy like Parcells used STs. The fake punt to Reasons being the most famous, but there were fake FGs to Carson and others. TC is so conservative and he'll voice statistics about the likelihood of success, etc. But, that doesn't give any attention to the very real flow of a game and momentum. (A critic might say he's not willing to go out on a limb rather than play it safe in the "can't blame me for this" kind of way.) Indy has already had 3 successful surprise on-sides THIS SEASON. If TC really cared about STs, he'd use them to their full extent.
He doesn't. He wants a reliable kicker and a solid directional punter. Bonus we have a good long snapper. The rest is just a guy saying the right stuff about STs. Maybe he's right? The argument could be made against putting more into it based on the % of game time spent on STs as opposed to O or D. But, if you care about the field position game, and you have a feel for momentum, you know STs are capable of being of outsized importance. For us, they're not, unless it's in a bad way.
- We all saw the writing on the wall with regard to this offense in 2012. Eli was being baited into throws, shown coverages to trick him into believing he had certain looks.
- Inability to cut Matt Dodge before a catastrophic event
- Not having a viable #1 corner from 2012-2013 seasons. Relying on an aged Webster who had increasing injury concerns leading up to both seasons.
- Hakeem Nicks. We had opportunities to trade him when we were down 0-4 or whatever it was. The injuries robbed him of his downfield speed, yet we still sat on our hands and let him walk away anyway. Not to mention, leading up to that year people already KNEW he wasnt going to be the same ever again. Yet his position was never addressed in the draft or free agency (unless Louis Murphy counts) until this year
- Now Tom Quinn. You take away David Wilson's miraculous special teams plays and abilities in his rookie year, and we all can agree that DW solely himself made all of those plays with his uncanny speed and balance, that Quinn's resume as a ST coach is downright dreadful.
- We all saw the writing on the wall with regard to this offense in 2012. Eli was being baited into throws, shown coverages to trick him into believing he had certain looks.
- Inability to cut Matt Dodge before a catastrophic event
- Not having a viable #1 corner from 2012-2013 seasons. Relying on an aged Webster who had increasing injury concerns leading up to both seasons.
- Hakeem Nicks. We had opportunities to trade him when we were down 0-4 or whatever it was. The injuries robbed him of his downfield speed, yet we still sat on our hands and let him walk away anyway. Not to mention, leading up to that year people already KNEW he wasnt going to be the same ever again. Yet his position was never addressed in the draft or free agency (unless Louis Murphy counts) until this year
- Now Tom Quinn. You take away David Wilson's miraculous special teams plays and abilities in his rookie year, and we all can agree that DW solely himself made all of those plays with his uncanny speed and balance, that Quinn's resume as a ST coach is downright dreadful.
- We all saw the writing on the wall with regard to this offense in 2012. Eli was being baited into throws, shown coverages to trick him into believing he had certain looks.
- Inability to cut Matt Dodge before a catastrophic event
- Not having a viable #1 corner from 2012-2013 seasons. Relying on an aged Webster who had increasing injury concerns leading up to both seasons.
- Hakeem Nicks. We had opportunities to trade him when we were down 0-4 or whatever it was. The injuries robbed him of his downfield speed, yet we still sat on our hands and let him walk away anyway. Not to mention, leading up to that year people already KNEW he wasnt going to be the same ever again. Yet his position was never addressed in the draft or free agency (unless Louis Murphy counts) until this year
- Now Tom Quinn. You take away David Wilson's miraculous special teams plays and abilities in his rookie year, and we all can agree that DW solely himself made all of those plays with his uncanny speed and balance, that Quinn's resume as a ST coach is downright dreadful.
- We all saw the writing on the wall with regard to this offense in 2012. Eli was being baited into throws, shown coverages to trick him into believing he had certain looks.
- Inability to cut Matt Dodge before a catastrophic event
- Not having a viable #1 corner from 2012-2013 seasons. Relying on an aged Webster who had increasing injury concerns leading up to both seasons.
- Hakeem Nicks. We had opportunities to trade him when we were down 0-4 or whatever it was. The injuries robbed him of his downfield speed, yet we still sat on our hands and let him walk away anyway. Not to mention, leading up to that year people already KNEW he wasnt going to be the same ever again. Yet his position was never addressed in the draft or free agency (unless Louis Murphy counts) until this year
- Now Tom Quinn. You take away David Wilson's miraculous special teams plays and abilities in his rookie year, and we all can agree that DW solely himself made all of those plays with his uncanny speed and balance, that Quinn's resume as a ST coach is downright dreadful.
Quinton Demps averaged 30 yards a kick return last season in KC. KC has a top tier special teams coach.
Darius Reynaud was a noted special teams player when the Giants traded to get him. No success here. Leaves the Giants, has more success on other teams.
How he has kept his job while others have been shown the door is beyond me. Jerald Ingram and Mike Pope got so much more production out of their groups and were terminated. Quinn has a group that consistently fails yet remains.
Blame everyone else you want but it is him that needs to go.
this is part of the reason Quinn keeps his job: they (mgmt) knows at the end of the day they dont give him much to work with
That's going in 100 years now, so it's not like the guy can't point to any success whatsoever.
The Reynaud item is an interesting one. In tha the was a good returner before here, sucked here and became solid again upon leaving.
that is just simply not accurate. The specials in 07 were fantastic when Hagan was returning kicks for Tds and huge return yards. The specials were good in 11. As I will always maintain, specials is an indication of the quality of depth you have.
they are doing exactly what he meticulously told them to do
I just don't think this is correct. He uses Starters so not sure what else you want...everybody on specials to be a starter? It doesn't work like that due to the makeup of the squad...and by the way, those weren't all Eagles starters out there either. Also, not sure starters would even share the same urgency on specials that a reserve might for a host of reasons.
I am not defending that ST are good. I have blasted them for a long time. I have thought a change from Quinn is necessary, simply because the status quo clearly fails.
I also tend to believe, as does the OP, that TC is complacent in this area to a good degree and just doesn't want it to suck. And when it does he flares up and gets involved. Shutting the barn door after the cow left...
You saw the kid SF had in at linebacker last night for Bowman. He's ordinarily a special team player. The fucking kid was faster than our safeties- and he's a linebacker.
There's no magic to this people. Take Quinn out in back of MetLife and shoot him, the roster problem will remain.
You saw the kid SF had in at linebacker last night for Bowman. He's ordinarily a special team player. The fucking kid was faster than our safeties- and he's a linebacker.
There's no magic to this people. Take Quinn out in back of MetLife and shoot him, the roster problem will remain.
+1
I still don't understand why folks don't get this. Special Teams test the 41 to 53 part of your roster. If that is bad, you are in trouble.
Sure, you can put some starters on there if the guys you originally intended stink. But how much prep work are they putting into it when they have their own work to do at their normal position? Just because Player X is a "starter" does not mean all problems are fixed.
The coach has continuously paid lip service to specials but based on available evidence, has done little to ensure that area improves. So I won't blame Quinn if his boss is willing to keep accepting these results.
So we are finding newer players that seem to have the same Special Team results?
Maybe we are being a bit harsh, the Giant STs had already given up like 3 touchdowns at this point last season...
Our entire roster of running backs this season has a cap number of about 3.2 million and that counts Wilson at nearly a million bucks.
Did we want to throw 10 million at Sproles to boost our special team returns?
How about Meggett, Toomer, Barber, Hixon?
But you don't have to be great to block a gunner off the line. And none of this goes to using fakes occasionally. We don't need great STs, but not crappy would be nice. Innovation to try and overcome our talent deficiencies would be nice.
But you don't have to be great to block a gunner off the line. And none of this goes to using fakes occasionally. We don't need great STs, but not crappy would be nice. Innovation to try and overcome our talent deficiencies would be nice.
Probably the best ST player the Giants have had in that area is Devin Thomas.
He was a failed wide receiver. But on special teams, he found a niche and did so when the Giants picked him up off the street. He was their best gunner on punts and very good getting downfield on kickoffs. I believe he even blocked a punt.
And what do you know, in one of the biggest games of the season (see: 2011 NFC Championship Game), it was Thomas who acutely recognized the ball deflecting off Kyle Williams leg in the 4th quarter and then in overtime recovering the fumble that led to the game winning field goal.
The question to wonder is whether that particular player has a place on this team? A guy who can be an ace special teamer but not really much else.