I think that I am at least a moderately respected poster in these parts and most know that this type of opinion or overreaction is not my norm. I want to preface this by saying that I am not speaking out of emotion or frustration but more so disappointment.
This team has talent. There are talented players on the roster. The quarterback is a proven winner and extremely gifted. But yet, they flounder in mediocrity.
It’s the little things. The frequent, drive killing/drive extending penalties. The stubbornness/repetitiveness of play calling. What seems to be a lack of desire/motivation at times. What seems to be a lack of preparation. The mental errors and lack of in-game adjustments is maddening. The nagging injuries. They can’t win the close ones. They are making the critical mistakes to lose games. For a coach that emphasizes attention to detail, this is poorly coached team. They can’t make plays when plays need to be made on either side of the ball. The inconsistencies with this team are completely mind-boggling. Lately, this team has come up small in big spots.
My fear is that we are wasting away the prime years of the best QB this franchise has ever seen with poor coaching. There is too much talent on the roster to miss the playoffs 4 out of the last 5 seasons. Soon to be 5 out of the last 6 seasons.
For all intents and purposes, this season is over and it’s not even Halloween yet. For the second season in a row. I will always love Coughlin for what he has done for this franchise and I am forever grateful but the coaching staff from top to bottom has done a poor job. From preparation to in-game coaching to simple development of players.
It is time for a change. It was time for a change at the end of last season, but the proper changes were not made.
To be frank, I don’t really care if people disagree with this post and I don’t really care how this post is perceived. This team is too damn good to miss the playoffs so frequently.
An improbable fluke towards that SB is off base.
See my previous post. I'm not saying the Giants got unlucky because they didn't win in 08; just that that season "vindicated" the 42 win as not being flukish. As Sean points out, they were 15-1 from that stretch till Plax went down. You don't do that by fluke.
Its up to Reese and Ross to add a lot more talent to both sides of the ball. As for the coached, that's on TC. Let's put it this way it took Mara to say something to get a coaching change. Does he have to do it again ? What about adding more talent to the team? We have so many sports to add talent and not enough draft picks to cover it all. Will we break the bank and sign big time free agents? Perhaps go after Suh?
From the end of 2007 till near the end of 2008, the Giants were the best team in football and it wasn't that close.
Dallas and Philly are better just about everywhere, on paper and as the last 2 weeks have proven on the field. Just about everywhere except QB, which brings us back to that mutual fear.
however you slice it, the TC/Eli administration has two titles which is better than a lot of teams in the NFL. It must make Eagle fans sick just thinking about, which is damn nice.
Your telling me Beatty forgot how to play, Pugh regressed and Richburg is stagnant and Flaherty isn't to blame?
All high draft picks, all talented and now underachieving?
Flaherty has a wonderful history, I get that, but I am less than impressed over the last few seasons. Especially considering that Ron Leary and Jeremy Purnell (both undrafted) just put on a clinic.
How did they do so well? They (along with the other studs along the Dallas line) have been coached flawlessly.
But, it's also a lack of talent on the whole. There's a lot of pedestrian football players on this team, and there's a number of very young men seeing a lot of snaps because of injuries, and shite depth.
This was a 4-win team last season, it's probably a 6/7-win team this season if they can get some health intact. The OL, DL, LB, and DB ranks all lack parts, and the receiving corps is very young now. So, they're battling the sum of poor coaching, lack of talent, and growing pains all at once. Imo.
Your telling me Beatty forgot how to play, Pugh regressed and Richburg is stagnant and Flaherty isn't to blame?
All high draft picks, all talented and now underachieving?
Flaherty has a wonderful history, I get that, but I am less than impressed over the last few seasons. Especially considering that Ron Leary and Jeremy Purnell (both undrafted) just put on a clinic.
How did they do so well? They (along with the other studs along the Dallas line) have been coached flawlessly.
I'm telling you that Beatty wasn't very good to begin with. Our offensive line got better when he got hurt in 2011. He's had exactly one decent season in his entire career here, never should have been given that type of contract. Pugh has to be hurt. Richburg is a rookie, not sure why you expect a rookie to play so well with hot garbage around him.
The Cowboys offensive line had many growing pains building this line. It didn't happen overnight, it took Smith time, even last year they were struggling in spots. They've built this over time, it didn't just magically happen because they have flawless coaching like you want to believe.
So Pierre-Paul goes from 16.5 sacks to less than mediocre in less than 2 seasons?
Pugh goes from progressing and looking like the best lineman on the team to horrid?
The inconsistency, and more specifically, the regression is insane. When players regress like that after showing such promise, the blame has to be places at the feet of the coaching staff.
Or perhaps it is the scheme. Put your best players in positions to succeed.
That leads me to believe the coaching staff is underachieving.
Especially at the main position: QB.
A big problem is both lines are frequently losing their battles badly.
Pugh in poor position? Getting beat regularly? Also Flaherty.
The 2011 team was pretty mediocre all year, until Week 16. Essentially almost every one of their games came down to whether or not Eli could drive them down to win in the last few minutes, and luckily he was able to a lot of the time. They too played 6 outstanding weeks of football when it mattered most, but if the comparison is 2007 Giants Games 1-14 v. 2011 Giants Games 1-14, I think the 2007 team was better by a mile.
Coaching is undoubtedly part of the problem, imv.
Pugh in poor position? Getting beat regularly? Also Flaherty.
Beatty didnt just fall off of a cliff. He had one fluke season in his entire career. We got better in 2011 when he got hurt, and that was with the turnstile David Diehl at left tackle.
How about this: why is an ineffective Kiwanuka still starting if Ayers has clearly outplayed him? COACHING!
History will look back at the giants of the coughlin era as the complete opposite of underachievers, at least those with proper perspective. This team winning multiple sb in this era is incredible
The reason they were not a hot pick and why even we as fans weren't totally confident in them was very simple: Eli was still decidedly in "is this guy really an NFL QB?" mode. Once he took that next step in the post-season it was basically the icing on the cake and they absolutely deserved to compete against TB, Dal, GB, and the 18-0 Pats.
A fact, again, re-inforced when we saw their continuation in 2008. You're extrapolating too far the true point that 2011 was totally over-achieving and the result of a hot streak. 2007 was the result of solid drafting (I mean, just that year were Ross, Smith, Boss, Bradshaw...nevermind the years before it) and a team getting better over the course of the season. All they needed was Eli to click.
Will Fewell, McAdoo or Guinta get first crack at a new job? Will the majority of the staff stay put?
How about this: why is an ineffective Kiwanuka still starting if Ayers has clearly outplayed him? COACHING!
He has clearly not regained the explosion that he had prior to his back injury, and at this point he probably never will. Guess that's the coaches fault.
The Giants have a recent history of devaluing important aspects of football teams: Linebackers, safeties, special teams namely. That *cant* last forever can it? And we have oodles of cap space next year.
In my opinion, the coaches are responsible for developing players and putting them in the best position to make plays.
Right now that is not happening. If Pierre-Paul is still hurt our not the same player, it's time to look for other options. If he is healthy, then the coaching staff is not doing a good enough job of putting him in positions to be a disruptor. Either way, the coaching is the issue.
and they were incredibly unlikely. One of the handful of most unlikely sb champs ever, surpassed by very few, including a later incarnation of themselves 4 years forward. Which is why its crazy to talk about this era like the franchise did snything but grossly over achieve
His O-line unit has been going downhill since 2010...I'm still not sure how we won it all in 2011. His player evaluation is suspect (playing O'Hara and Diehl on their last legs) and he definitely hasn't coached up anybody in recent memory...Richburg may be the first, but hard to say since he's a rookie. Hope he doesn't go the way of Justin Pugh, getting worse as he spends more time with Coach Flaherty. Beatty was good, then bad, then decent enough this year. I don't know, I like Flaherty, but I think he should be held accountable.
We get pushed around a lot on both lines.
I agree with this. The defense scares no one. I hope we can draft/sign some fierce players to get that D respectful again.
2011: absolutely. These were mostly mediocre or good not great (dare I say even Nicks is in this category) players who just played out of their minds beginning with right about here. Carried on Eli's back.
2007's roster was filled with much better players, especially on the O-line. Rookies clicking, vets like Toomer and Strahan still playing at a high level. They just needed a QB. Once they had one, the run was not at all surprising.
maybe it's Strength and Conditioning? because they always seem to be weaker than the man lining up opposite them
Quote:
Flaherty forgot how to coach o-lineman? Some of the best lines the Giants have ever had came under his watch.
His O-line unit has been going downhill since 2010...I'm still not sure how we won it all in 2011. His player evaluation is suspect (playing O'Hara and Diehl on their last legs) and he definitely hasn't coached up anybody in recent memory...Richburg may be the first, but hard to say since he's a rookie. Hope he doesn't go the way of Justin Pugh, getting worse as he spends more time with Coach Flaherty. Beatty was good, then bad, then decent enough this year. I don't know, I like Flaherty, but I think he should be held accountable.
We won in 2011 because that was the one year in Eli's career where he went into god mode
I can't deal with Gavin Escobar running wide open through the secondary and guys looking at each other like "I thought you had him!?!?"
The mental mistakes are maddening and make them look like a badly coached team.
Why? Coaching.
No way. Bruce Carter can play, so can Durant and McClain, you don't know who they are but that doesn't make them bad players. Look at what their DL did to us up front, that's not coaching that bigger better players across the board. Coaching is nowhere near what it's cracked up to be. You have a few very good coaches, some crap and the rest can be put in a pile. The Cowboys have premium talent on offense across the board and fast aggressive LBs who can tackle and a big deep DL that doesn't have a list of names you know but did they look untalented yesterday?
Talent wins, period. Coaches can help, schemes can help but this game comes down to the basics no matter how you slice it. Can you beat the man across from you ? No fiery speech or coaching tape can make you whip someone, you do that with leverage, speed, power and explosion coupled with knowledge of the position. You get that from your position coaches but this is the NFL, not pop warner, these guys know how to coach. It's WHO they coach that matters. This same idiot DC won a SB...because of great coaching? Is Spags the mastermind a great coach? NO. They both had insane DL talent and won because of it. They weren't great coaches, Dallas doesn't have great coaching they have very good football players.
I'm sorry you don't see that, perhaps spend a Sunday watching everyone BUT us and you'll see how poor our talent is.
No way. Bruce Carter can play, so can Durant and McClain, you don't know who they are but that doesn't make them bad players. Look at what their DL did to us up front, that's not coaching that bigger better players across the board. Coaching is nowhere near what it's cracked up to be. You have a few very good coaches, some crap and the rest can be put in a pile. The Cowboys have premium talent on offense across the board and fast aggressive LBs who can tackle and a big deep DL that doesn't have a list of names you know but did they look untalented yesterday?
Talent wins, period. Coaches can help, schemes can help but this game comes down to the basics no matter how you slice it. Can you beat the man across from you ? No fiery speech or coaching tape can make you whip someone, you do that with leverage, speed, power and explosion coupled with knowledge of the position. You get that from your position coaches but this is the NFL, not pop warner, these guys know how to coach. It's WHO they coach that matters. This same idiot DC won a SB...because of great coaching? Is Spags the mastermind a great coach? NO. They both had insane DL talent and won because of it. They weren't great coaches, Dallas doesn't have great coaching they have very good football players.
I'm sorry you don't see that, perhaps spend a Sunday watching everyone BUT us and you'll see how poor our talent is.
Good post. Dallas also has finally gotten smart and is running the ball, taking pressure off Romo.
Durant, Carter and McClain are head and shoulders above Beason, McClain and Kennard/Williams?
Selvie, Hayden, Melton and Crawford are head and shoulders about Pierre-Paul, Kiwanuka, Jenkins and Hankins?
Church, Carr, Heath and Scandrick are better than Rodgers-Cromartie, Amukamara, Rolle and Demps?
I can make an argument that on paper, the Giants defense is better on every level.
So where is this issue coming from? In my humble opinion it is a lack of motivation, preparation and in-game adjustments by the coaching staff.
I refuse to believe that all these players were/are just busts. If Reese misses on a few of them, I get that but all 6 of them? That sounds like a lack of ability to develop young offensive linemen to me.
So why is it that Dallas can sign throw away linemen like Ronald Leary and Jeremy Pernell and they step in and perform flawlessly?
In my opinion deficiency in coaching.
That's why things like injuries factor so much into a team's success or failure. It is why if you lose a top WR like the Benagls did or several OL like the Falcons, you go from looking like a playoff team to an also-ran pretty quickly.
What has hurt the Giants recently is cluster injuries. Average depth isn't too bad, but get to the bottom of the barrel and you get screwed.
The OL isn't terrible. There's talent there - but a guy like Pugh is going to develop more quickly when he doesn't have to be the main guy from day 1. Inconsistency may not be a reflection of coaching - it may be a reflection of having a turnstile at certain OL positions. Dallas can afford to plug in new guys, because there are veteran lineman to tutor them. The Giants really don't have that.
On the flip side, the DL does. That's why young players seem to come along much more quickly on the DL as Giants. They are able to be more effective because they have veterans there to help and more overall talent to work with.
Now look at the 2011 team in that context. From 2009-2013, the Giants have gone 8-8, 10-6 (but collapsed late in the year and missed the playoffs), 9-7, 9-7 and 7-9. One playoff berth in that span. Yes, they got hot and made it count, but this is a franchise that's been treading water in recent seasons. 2011 was an abberration, there's no other way to put it.
I do not think the issue talent vs. coaching can be determined with the current state of the team. There is likely an issue with both so the ownership needs to move on from Tom. Let Reese pick his guy and if things do not improve within a few seasons, Reese should be gone.
Now look at the 2011 team in that context. From 2009-2013, the Giants have gone 8-8, 10-6 (but collapsed late in the year and missed the playoffs), 9-7, 9-7 and 7-9. One playoff berth in that span. Yes, they got hot and made it count, but this is a franchise that's been treading water in recent seasons. 2011 was an abberration, there's no other way to put it.
I actually thought 2010 was a really good team - I thought we were going to make a run that year.
But 2007 was a really good team. But that was a year with a lot of high quality teams - and we played three of them in the playoffs.