I think that I am at least a moderately respected poster in these parts and most know that this type of opinion or overreaction is not my norm. I want to preface this by saying that I am not speaking out of emotion or frustration but more so disappointment.
This team has talent. There are talented players on the roster. The quarterback is a proven winner and extremely gifted. But yet, they flounder in mediocrity.
It’s the little things. The frequent, drive killing/drive extending penalties. The stubbornness/repetitiveness of play calling. What seems to be a lack of desire/motivation at times. What seems to be a lack of preparation. The mental errors and lack of in-game adjustments is maddening. The nagging injuries. They can’t win the close ones. They are making the critical mistakes to lose games. For a coach that emphasizes attention to detail, this is poorly coached team. They can’t make plays when plays need to be made on either side of the ball. The inconsistencies with this team are completely mind-boggling. Lately, this team has come up small in big spots.
My fear is that we are wasting away the prime years of the best QB this franchise has ever seen with poor coaching. There is too much talent on the roster to miss the playoffs 4 out of the last 5 seasons. Soon to be 5 out of the last 6 seasons.
For all intents and purposes, this season is over and it’s not even Halloween yet. For the second season in a row. I will always love Coughlin for what he has done for this franchise and I am forever grateful but the coaching staff from top to bottom has done a poor job. From preparation to in-game coaching to simple development of players.
It is time for a change. It was time for a change at the end of last season, but the proper changes were not made.
To be frank, I don’t really care if people disagree with this post and I don’t really care how this post is perceived. This team is too damn good to miss the playoffs so frequently.
We have issues on the OL, DL, LB, S, WR and we've gotten nailed by injuries (again).
Dallas is the better team.
I think what is also on Coughlin is Fewell still being around after a proven track record of mediocrity. Especially with the injuries to Schwartz, Cruz and Jenkins, this defense should be carrying the team. Instead they've been average to bad.
As I mentioned, the inconsistencies are what drive me crazy.
Example: the Dallas defense is not nearly as talented as the Giants defense. They signed guys off the street. But yet they whipped the Giants. The coaching staff for Dallas has the defense playing hard and they are schematically sound.
When do we get to see this team at anything that resembles full strength. Ever?
This has been going on for the most part of the last two seasons and cannot understand why they haven't corrected these issues at least more on a consistant basis. It's been too often now.
I agree with this. Sticking with the running was fine until the 4th quarter. They should have abandoned it on the first drive and gone in to the hurry up like they did on the 3rd TD to Beckham. The players showed the fuck up. And instead of running on 1 and 19, we should have gone with that medium range passing attack that marched us right down the field for the score. But it was too late at that point (basically).
Josh in the City : 8:04 pm : link : reply
way for any of us to know if the talent is there to win b/c they're not being put in a position to succeed.
I just took it a step further than you. Based on the track records of the players, I think this team has the talent to succeed and they are not being put in the position to win.
Then draft Bromley, etc
Can't keep them all but can't keep using top draft picks on the same position either. Getting blindsided when neglected positions are weak is getting old.
And it's not like they signed a bunch of FA all-stars.
I didn't think the offense played badly. I hated the play calling.....that run on 1st and 20 at the beginning of the first half at mid field just was horrible. ITS NOT WORKING COACH! Maybe the drive fails but lets throw to at least get in FG range and take a lead.
Bottom line...same problems week after week. Miscommunications in coverage and our rush doesn't get home. Gashed on cutback and 3rd downs are getting hopeless. Start rebuilding now with the firing of Perry FEWELL.
Everyone they bought is hurt.
The OL isn't being put in a position to succeed? How about blocking the fucking guy in front of you! That has nothing to do with coaching, they can't fucking block to save there lives
But this team, this year, isn't a special group.
I was thinking the same thing. I think quietly, it DOES start tomorrow.
The line is bad, the run game is non-existent, the defense had trouble stopping Dallas so put up points with the pass game.
Saying we will go 7 and 2 in the next 9 games based on what? Just like our play the play calling is getting worst every game. We were there with our offense and just when we thought things would turn around, we go back to last years play calling. This is a professional football team that can not blitz or run a screen play. How is that possible in this day and age?
This is a division rival - they get the soft zone we play on 3rd down. If we have supposed pass rushers, did we see the 4 DE at all together
The defense plays not to lose and they lose more games that way
The defense is a fucking joke. Should have known they would let down this year after everyone, including me, tripped all over themselves praising the 2013 defense.
DRC? Hurt always. JPP and hank are the only difference makers up front. Prince and rolle only legit players in the back 7.
Fewell is garbage. Brings nothing...
What does that mean? The coaching staff isn't putting these players in positions to succeed and the young players aren't being developed.
As I mentioned, the inconsistencies are what drive me crazy.
Example: the Dallas defense is not nearly as talented as the Giants defense. They signed guys off the street. But yet they whipped the Giants. The coaching staff for Dallas has the defense playing hard and they are schematically sound.
And no, we don't have talent up and down the roster. We have no Bryant, no Witten, we have no Murray. We are slow at lb and are basically playing with one safety. There are only so many holes you can cover.
We have two complete castoffs starting on the OL, a terrible 2nd year RT, promising LG who should be at C and a whiny headcase of a LT. We have no speed aside from Beckam, and a ton of lazy players on offense who don't do the little things winners do.
What the fuck are you expecting? Jenkins is done, Patterson is done, Kuhn is fucking terrible, Kiwi is like playing with 10 people, Beason is shot, McClain is nothing, and our vaunted DB bonanza is shot due to, shockingly, injuries.
This team is not good. We have some good players in spots but this is NOT NOT NOT a playoff team. No way no how. You don't shit the bed against the Eagles and let the Cowboys absolutely trample you if you are a playoff team. No guts, no heart, no hustle and very little good talent.
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I think the Giants are about 3 solid players from being SB contenders again - IMHO. (could be 4 - with 2 of them being OL). :)
If you think we are vastly more talented than anyone anywhere, you need your fucking head examined.
I agree with this, but I put this on the coaching staff. Not the players.
My frustration stems from desire. You could make an argument that if you are the Dallas GM, you would trade almost every player on the Cowboys defense for the corresponding player on the Giants defense. What's the difference? The Dallas defense has heart hustle and coaching.
Don't get me wrong, Jerry Jones is just as clueless as ever, I think he just lucked into a semi-decent coaching staff and a band of misfits that play hard and hustle.
I've never posted this before but after the last 2 games (not based solely on them, mind you) I believe it's time for Coughlin to ride off into the sunset.
Sometimes you do have to change for the sake of changing. I like McAdoo quite a bit and I hope it was Coughlin's idea to run the ball far too often today, not McAdoo's.
This team? Sure there's some nice players, but I don't think they're any more talented than most other mediocre NFL teams. If they played Jacksonville, Washington, and Tennessee the next 3 weeks, they'd very possibly go on another 3 game winning streak and get us all excited again. The fact is they play 3 more good teams, and will be serious underdogs in all of them.
The talent is not bottom-5 in the league, but it's not anywhere near the upper tier of the league either.
Why? Coaching.
talent is a valid point, but good coaches can coach them up...we're not the only team with injuries.
Marinelli came in and lit a fire under the asses of the defense.
Linehan came in and stabilized the offense and stopped Garrett from passing almost 70% of the time.
Now look. 6-1.
But 2007 was filled with quality players. The LBs and secondary were so-so at times (although Webster's rise was crazy), but the Dline was borderline historically good, great D-coordinator, strong O-line, strong at the skill positions, rookies contributing. You can't argue SB42 was flukish b/c they played NE tight week 17, too.
The general point that this team has under Coughlin been mostly mediocre and fortunate to have these crazy highs is on point, however. Very frustrating. No consistency at all.
Will let the season play out, but if it's another 8-8 or worse year, I'm good with a chance.
2) every year Fewell's D has had trouble getting pressure, ineffective blitzes, communication problems in the secondary, allowing teams off the hook on 3rd and long, failed to get the big stops when they ned them, etc. he sucks and should have been fired 2 years ago.
3) I love Coughlin and am thrilled he was hired when he was. But, if they fail to make the playoffs again, which looks very likely, then it is his time to go. For a couple of years now, we have been completely outplayed too many times. More importantly, we have played with a lack of discipline the is supposed to abhor.
The mistake we made is starting the rebuilding process a year too late. We patched together a veteran roster last year on the faint hope we could play a Super Bowl at MetLife, and it blew up in our faces. We've made progress since then, but there's plenty more that needs to be done. It all starts in the trenches. We need to beef up our defensive line if we plan on stopping Dallas or Philly anytime soon. They have monster OLs.
Coaching matters but Dallas is a much better team.
Philadelphia has beaten the Giants 6 out of the last 9.
Just to make everyone aware.
We get pushed around a lot on both lines.
im fine for moving on fro coughlin after this year too because it always goes stale. But please dont try and sell me on the gints of his era as having done anything but grossly overachieved to win the 2 sb they did
We get pushed around a lot on both lines.
That is on Reese.
im fine for moving on fro coughlin after this year too because it always goes stale. But please dont try and sell me on the gints of his era as having done anything but grossly overachieved to win the 2 sb they did
2008 they were the best team in football.
Walton, Mosley, maybe Pugh, Kiwi, Williams, Parker, Demps...these are JAGs or worse. And they're out there against quality opponents. Recipe for loss.
Philadelphia has beaten the Giants 6 out of the last 9.
Just to make everyone aware.
usually the same way each time, too.
Dallas kills us with TEs and Philly D with the inside blitz.
Look at the line for example: sure Smith, Martin and Frederick are 1st all round picks.
Pugh is a 1st round pick and Richburg and Beatty are 2nd round picks. So they all have talent.
So why are Richburg, Beatty and Pugh so inconsistent why Smith, Martin and Frederick are considered some of the best? My guess is coaching.
Is Jerry Jones a superior GM to Jerry Reese? I am not buying that for a single minute. So what is the difference? Coaching and ability to develop young talent.
Example: Ronald Leary and Jeremy Purnell, both undrafted, played extremely well today. Why? They have grown in system and been developed.
I am looking squarely at Pat Flaherty in regards to the struggles of the offensive linemen.
I don't think we go 9-7. I think we will have another 7-9 record and that to me means it is time for a major change. Missing the playoffs year after year and then having 2 losing years in a row. You can't just say better luck next year.
im fine for moving on fro coughlin after this year too because it always goes stale. But please dont try and sell me on the gints of his era as having done anything but grossly overachieved to win the 2 sb they did
I don't see how you can argue SB42 was "grossly overachieving". They were a quality team that just needed to figure some things out. After the 1st 2 games and outside of the Vikings debacle, every game was a win or pretty close that year.
The evidence that they were organically building a quality team and not a streaky fluke...look no further than the following season where, as chris points out, they were a juggernaut until fuckface shot himself.
And here is the issue I have: why aren't those adjustments made?
Everyone under the sun knows Philadelphia will blitz in the A gaps and Dallas will run intermediate routes with TE's. Why aren't there game plans to prevent this?
46 was overachieving.
An improbable fluke towards that SB is off base.
See my previous post. I'm not saying the Giants got unlucky because they didn't win in 08; just that that season "vindicated" the 42 win as not being flukish. As Sean points out, they were 15-1 from that stretch till Plax went down. You don't do that by fluke.
Its up to Reese and Ross to add a lot more talent to both sides of the ball. As for the coached, that's on TC. Let's put it this way it took Mara to say something to get a coaching change. Does he have to do it again ? What about adding more talent to the team? We have so many sports to add talent and not enough draft picks to cover it all. Will we break the bank and sign big time free agents? Perhaps go after Suh?
From the end of 2007 till near the end of 2008, the Giants were the best team in football and it wasn't that close.
Dallas and Philly are better just about everywhere, on paper and as the last 2 weeks have proven on the field. Just about everywhere except QB, which brings us back to that mutual fear.
however you slice it, the TC/Eli administration has two titles which is better than a lot of teams in the NFL. It must make Eagle fans sick just thinking about, which is damn nice.
Your telling me Beatty forgot how to play, Pugh regressed and Richburg is stagnant and Flaherty isn't to blame?
All high draft picks, all talented and now underachieving?
Flaherty has a wonderful history, I get that, but I am less than impressed over the last few seasons. Especially considering that Ron Leary and Jeremy Purnell (both undrafted) just put on a clinic.
How did they do so well? They (along with the other studs along the Dallas line) have been coached flawlessly.
But, it's also a lack of talent on the whole. There's a lot of pedestrian football players on this team, and there's a number of very young men seeing a lot of snaps because of injuries, and shite depth.
This was a 4-win team last season, it's probably a 6/7-win team this season if they can get some health intact. The OL, DL, LB, and DB ranks all lack parts, and the receiving corps is very young now. So, they're battling the sum of poor coaching, lack of talent, and growing pains all at once. Imo.
Your telling me Beatty forgot how to play, Pugh regressed and Richburg is stagnant and Flaherty isn't to blame?
All high draft picks, all talented and now underachieving?
Flaherty has a wonderful history, I get that, but I am less than impressed over the last few seasons. Especially considering that Ron Leary and Jeremy Purnell (both undrafted) just put on a clinic.
How did they do so well? They (along with the other studs along the Dallas line) have been coached flawlessly.
I'm telling you that Beatty wasn't very good to begin with. Our offensive line got better when he got hurt in 2011. He's had exactly one decent season in his entire career here, never should have been given that type of contract. Pugh has to be hurt. Richburg is a rookie, not sure why you expect a rookie to play so well with hot garbage around him.
The Cowboys offensive line had many growing pains building this line. It didn't happen overnight, it took Smith time, even last year they were struggling in spots. They've built this over time, it didn't just magically happen because they have flawless coaching like you want to believe.
So Pierre-Paul goes from 16.5 sacks to less than mediocre in less than 2 seasons?
Pugh goes from progressing and looking like the best lineman on the team to horrid?
The inconsistency, and more specifically, the regression is insane. When players regress like that after showing such promise, the blame has to be places at the feet of the coaching staff.
Or perhaps it is the scheme. Put your best players in positions to succeed.
That leads me to believe the coaching staff is underachieving.
Especially at the main position: QB.
A big problem is both lines are frequently losing their battles badly.
Pugh in poor position? Getting beat regularly? Also Flaherty.
The 2011 team was pretty mediocre all year, until Week 16. Essentially almost every one of their games came down to whether or not Eli could drive them down to win in the last few minutes, and luckily he was able to a lot of the time. They too played 6 outstanding weeks of football when it mattered most, but if the comparison is 2007 Giants Games 1-14 v. 2011 Giants Games 1-14, I think the 2007 team was better by a mile.
Coaching is undoubtedly part of the problem, imv.
Pugh in poor position? Getting beat regularly? Also Flaherty.
Beatty didnt just fall off of a cliff. He had one fluke season in his entire career. We got better in 2011 when he got hurt, and that was with the turnstile David Diehl at left tackle.
How about this: why is an ineffective Kiwanuka still starting if Ayers has clearly outplayed him? COACHING!
History will look back at the giants of the coughlin era as the complete opposite of underachievers, at least those with proper perspective. This team winning multiple sb in this era is incredible
The reason they were not a hot pick and why even we as fans weren't totally confident in them was very simple: Eli was still decidedly in "is this guy really an NFL QB?" mode. Once he took that next step in the post-season it was basically the icing on the cake and they absolutely deserved to compete against TB, Dal, GB, and the 18-0 Pats.
A fact, again, re-inforced when we saw their continuation in 2008. You're extrapolating too far the true point that 2011 was totally over-achieving and the result of a hot streak. 2007 was the result of solid drafting (I mean, just that year were Ross, Smith, Boss, Bradshaw...nevermind the years before it) and a team getting better over the course of the season. All they needed was Eli to click.
Will Fewell, McAdoo or Guinta get first crack at a new job? Will the majority of the staff stay put?
How about this: why is an ineffective Kiwanuka still starting if Ayers has clearly outplayed him? COACHING!
He has clearly not regained the explosion that he had prior to his back injury, and at this point he probably never will. Guess that's the coaches fault.
The Giants have a recent history of devaluing important aspects of football teams: Linebackers, safeties, special teams namely. That *cant* last forever can it? And we have oodles of cap space next year.
In my opinion, the coaches are responsible for developing players and putting them in the best position to make plays.
Right now that is not happening. If Pierre-Paul is still hurt our not the same player, it's time to look for other options. If he is healthy, then the coaching staff is not doing a good enough job of putting him in positions to be a disruptor. Either way, the coaching is the issue.
and they were incredibly unlikely. One of the handful of most unlikely sb champs ever, surpassed by very few, including a later incarnation of themselves 4 years forward. Which is why its crazy to talk about this era like the franchise did snything but grossly over achieve
His O-line unit has been going downhill since 2010...I'm still not sure how we won it all in 2011. His player evaluation is suspect (playing O'Hara and Diehl on their last legs) and he definitely hasn't coached up anybody in recent memory...Richburg may be the first, but hard to say since he's a rookie. Hope he doesn't go the way of Justin Pugh, getting worse as he spends more time with Coach Flaherty. Beatty was good, then bad, then decent enough this year. I don't know, I like Flaherty, but I think he should be held accountable.
We get pushed around a lot on both lines.
I agree with this. The defense scares no one. I hope we can draft/sign some fierce players to get that D respectful again.
2011: absolutely. These were mostly mediocre or good not great (dare I say even Nicks is in this category) players who just played out of their minds beginning with right about here. Carried on Eli's back.
2007's roster was filled with much better players, especially on the O-line. Rookies clicking, vets like Toomer and Strahan still playing at a high level. They just needed a QB. Once they had one, the run was not at all surprising.
maybe it's Strength and Conditioning? because they always seem to be weaker than the man lining up opposite them
Quote:
Flaherty forgot how to coach o-lineman? Some of the best lines the Giants have ever had came under his watch.
His O-line unit has been going downhill since 2010...I'm still not sure how we won it all in 2011. His player evaluation is suspect (playing O'Hara and Diehl on their last legs) and he definitely hasn't coached up anybody in recent memory...Richburg may be the first, but hard to say since he's a rookie. Hope he doesn't go the way of Justin Pugh, getting worse as he spends more time with Coach Flaherty. Beatty was good, then bad, then decent enough this year. I don't know, I like Flaherty, but I think he should be held accountable.
We won in 2011 because that was the one year in Eli's career where he went into god mode
I can't deal with Gavin Escobar running wide open through the secondary and guys looking at each other like "I thought you had him!?!?"
The mental mistakes are maddening and make them look like a badly coached team.
Why? Coaching.
No way. Bruce Carter can play, so can Durant and McClain, you don't know who they are but that doesn't make them bad players. Look at what their DL did to us up front, that's not coaching that bigger better players across the board. Coaching is nowhere near what it's cracked up to be. You have a few very good coaches, some crap and the rest can be put in a pile. The Cowboys have premium talent on offense across the board and fast aggressive LBs who can tackle and a big deep DL that doesn't have a list of names you know but did they look untalented yesterday?
Talent wins, period. Coaches can help, schemes can help but this game comes down to the basics no matter how you slice it. Can you beat the man across from you ? No fiery speech or coaching tape can make you whip someone, you do that with leverage, speed, power and explosion coupled with knowledge of the position. You get that from your position coaches but this is the NFL, not pop warner, these guys know how to coach. It's WHO they coach that matters. This same idiot DC won a SB...because of great coaching? Is Spags the mastermind a great coach? NO. They both had insane DL talent and won because of it. They weren't great coaches, Dallas doesn't have great coaching they have very good football players.
I'm sorry you don't see that, perhaps spend a Sunday watching everyone BUT us and you'll see how poor our talent is.
No way. Bruce Carter can play, so can Durant and McClain, you don't know who they are but that doesn't make them bad players. Look at what their DL did to us up front, that's not coaching that bigger better players across the board. Coaching is nowhere near what it's cracked up to be. You have a few very good coaches, some crap and the rest can be put in a pile. The Cowboys have premium talent on offense across the board and fast aggressive LBs who can tackle and a big deep DL that doesn't have a list of names you know but did they look untalented yesterday?
Talent wins, period. Coaches can help, schemes can help but this game comes down to the basics no matter how you slice it. Can you beat the man across from you ? No fiery speech or coaching tape can make you whip someone, you do that with leverage, speed, power and explosion coupled with knowledge of the position. You get that from your position coaches but this is the NFL, not pop warner, these guys know how to coach. It's WHO they coach that matters. This same idiot DC won a SB...because of great coaching? Is Spags the mastermind a great coach? NO. They both had insane DL talent and won because of it. They weren't great coaches, Dallas doesn't have great coaching they have very good football players.
I'm sorry you don't see that, perhaps spend a Sunday watching everyone BUT us and you'll see how poor our talent is.
Good post. Dallas also has finally gotten smart and is running the ball, taking pressure off Romo.
Durant, Carter and McClain are head and shoulders above Beason, McClain and Kennard/Williams?
Selvie, Hayden, Melton and Crawford are head and shoulders about Pierre-Paul, Kiwanuka, Jenkins and Hankins?
Church, Carr, Heath and Scandrick are better than Rodgers-Cromartie, Amukamara, Rolle and Demps?
I can make an argument that on paper, the Giants defense is better on every level.
So where is this issue coming from? In my humble opinion it is a lack of motivation, preparation and in-game adjustments by the coaching staff.
I refuse to believe that all these players were/are just busts. If Reese misses on a few of them, I get that but all 6 of them? That sounds like a lack of ability to develop young offensive linemen to me.
So why is it that Dallas can sign throw away linemen like Ronald Leary and Jeremy Pernell and they step in and perform flawlessly?
In my opinion deficiency in coaching.
That's why things like injuries factor so much into a team's success or failure. It is why if you lose a top WR like the Benagls did or several OL like the Falcons, you go from looking like a playoff team to an also-ran pretty quickly.
What has hurt the Giants recently is cluster injuries. Average depth isn't too bad, but get to the bottom of the barrel and you get screwed.
The OL isn't terrible. There's talent there - but a guy like Pugh is going to develop more quickly when he doesn't have to be the main guy from day 1. Inconsistency may not be a reflection of coaching - it may be a reflection of having a turnstile at certain OL positions. Dallas can afford to plug in new guys, because there are veteran lineman to tutor them. The Giants really don't have that.
On the flip side, the DL does. That's why young players seem to come along much more quickly on the DL as Giants. They are able to be more effective because they have veterans there to help and more overall talent to work with.
Now look at the 2011 team in that context. From 2009-2013, the Giants have gone 8-8, 10-6 (but collapsed late in the year and missed the playoffs), 9-7, 9-7 and 7-9. One playoff berth in that span. Yes, they got hot and made it count, but this is a franchise that's been treading water in recent seasons. 2011 was an abberration, there's no other way to put it.
I do not think the issue talent vs. coaching can be determined with the current state of the team. There is likely an issue with both so the ownership needs to move on from Tom. Let Reese pick his guy and if things do not improve within a few seasons, Reese should be gone.
Now look at the 2011 team in that context. From 2009-2013, the Giants have gone 8-8, 10-6 (but collapsed late in the year and missed the playoffs), 9-7, 9-7 and 7-9. One playoff berth in that span. Yes, they got hot and made it count, but this is a franchise that's been treading water in recent seasons. 2011 was an abberration, there's no other way to put it.
I actually thought 2010 was a really good team - I thought we were going to make a run that year.
But 2007 was a really good team. But that was a year with a lot of high quality teams - and we played three of them in the playoffs.