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I am tired of this

Vin_Cuccs : 10/19/2014 7:58 pm
I think that I am at least a moderately respected poster in these parts and most know that this type of opinion or overreaction is not my norm. I want to preface this by saying that I am not speaking out of emotion or frustration but more so disappointment.

This team has talent. There are talented players on the roster. The quarterback is a proven winner and extremely gifted. But yet, they flounder in mediocrity.

It’s the little things. The frequent, drive killing/drive extending penalties. The stubbornness/repetitiveness of play calling. What seems to be a lack of desire/motivation at times. What seems to be a lack of preparation. The mental errors and lack of in-game adjustments is maddening. The nagging injuries. They can’t win the close ones. They are making the critical mistakes to lose games. For a coach that emphasizes attention to detail, this is poorly coached team. They can’t make plays when plays need to be made on either side of the ball. The inconsistencies with this team are completely mind-boggling. Lately, this team has come up small in big spots.

My fear is that we are wasting away the prime years of the best QB this franchise has ever seen with poor coaching. There is too much talent on the roster to miss the playoffs 4 out of the last 5 seasons. Soon to be 5 out of the last 6 seasons.

For all intents and purposes, this season is over and it’s not even Halloween yet. For the second season in a row. I will always love Coughlin for what he has done for this franchise and I am forever grateful but the coaching staff from top to bottom has done a poor job. From preparation to in-game coaching to simple development of players.

It is time for a change. It was time for a change at the end of last season, but the proper changes were not made.

To be frank, I don’t really care if people disagree with this post and I don’t really care how this post is perceived. This team is too damn good to miss the playoffs so frequently.
I agree  
Josh in the City : 10/19/2014 7:59 pm : link
with this post.
the team  
MookGiants : 10/19/2014 8:00 pm : link
certainly isn't too damn good right now. In between titles I agree. But the talent level on this team right now is quite frankly shitty.
What changes do you want made?  
gmen1234 : 10/19/2014 8:00 pm : link
.
I said it on another thread...  
bradshaw44 : 10/19/2014 8:00 pm : link
It's 2006 all over again. TC needs to clean up the penalties and mental mistakes before we can compete again. We also need to have a fucking season where we don't lose every starter on D to fucking injuries.
You  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 10/19/2014 8:00 pm : link
make some good points, but the talent isn't as good as you think.

We have issues on the OL, DL, LB, S, WR and we've gotten nailed by injuries (again).

Dallas is the better team.
I agree with the stubborness and mental  
chris r : 10/19/2014 8:01 pm : link
mistakes being on Coughlin.

I think what is also on Coughlin is Fewell still being around after a proven track record of mediocrity. Especially with the injuries to Schwartz, Cruz and Jenkins, this defense should be carrying the team. Instead they've been average to bad.
and they've been average to bad  
chris r : 10/19/2014 8:02 pm : link
for Fewell's entire time here excepting the SB run.
The play calling frustrated me more today  
RELICDOA : 10/19/2014 8:03 pm : link
Than last week. Going to be a long break.
Amen  
natefit : 10/19/2014 8:03 pm : link
Yes injuries and yes we are lacking at some positions talent-wise but once again its noe even jacket weather and we are done. Something is missing with this team (again) and its hard to figure.
There is no  
Josh in the City : 10/19/2014 8:04 pm : link
way for any of us to know if the talent is there to win b/c they're not being put in a position to succeed.
Let Eli throw the damn ball!!!  
RELICDOA : 10/19/2014 8:04 pm : link
Feel like he is handcuffed?!?
OL and DL  
Toastt34 : 10/19/2014 8:05 pm : link
That's how you win. The OL is a wreck. This week couldn't run block, last week couldn't pass block. The DL has talent that's underperforming aside from Hankins. Cant get any pressure on 3rd downs exposing the decimated secondary. Can't make a key stop and can't get off the freakin field.
Dallas is better. I do not disagree with you Eric.  
Vin_Cuccs : 10/19/2014 8:05 pm : link
But the Giants have talent up and down the roster. Not at all positions, but they should not be as up and down as they are.

As I mentioned, the inconsistencies are what drive me crazy.

Example: the Dallas defense is not nearly as talented as the Giants defense. They signed guys off the street. But yet they whipped the Giants. The coaching staff for Dallas has the defense playing hard and they are schematically sound.
RE: You  
BillT : 10/19/2014 8:05 pm : link
In comment 11930018 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
and we've gotten nailed by injuries (again)


When do we get to see this team at anything that resembles full strength. Ever?
After spending more for free agents in giants history..  
silverfox : 10/19/2014 8:06 pm : link
...we still have the same problems. Saying its on the players at this point is ridiculous. Its obvious the coaching has to be addressed next and it starts with Coughlin. He's toast.
Do you think  
JoefromPa : 10/19/2014 8:06 pm : link
any team will ever miss a meaningful field goal against the Giants again. Because I not only tired of all the things you listed, I'm tired of that too.
Vin  
micky : 10/19/2014 8:07 pm : link
I agree. I guess most are reacting on emotion. But, for the life of me now, the all too familar post-game conference..there's the mantra of: too many mental mistakes, miscommunication with so-and-so unit etc, having to search within ourselves, drive killing penalties, etc etc etc.

This has been going on for the most part of the last two seasons and cannot understand why they haven't corrected these issues at least more on a consistant basis. It's been too often now.
RE: There is no  
bradshaw44 : 10/19/2014 8:07 pm : link
In comment 11930039 Josh in the City said:
Quote:
way for any of us to know if the talent is there to win b/c they're not being put in a position to succeed.


I agree with this. Sticking with the running was fine until the 4th quarter. They should have abandoned it on the first drive and gone in to the hurry up like they did on the 3rd TD to Beckham. The players showed the fuck up. And instead of running on 1 and 19, we should have gone with that medium range passing attack that marched us right down the field for the score. But it was too late at that point (basically).
Josh, I could not agree more.  
Vin_Cuccs : 10/19/2014 8:08 pm : link
Quote:
There is no
Josh in the City : 8:04 pm : link : reply

way for any of us to know if the talent is there to win b/c they're not being put in a position to succeed.


I just took it a step further than you. Based on the track records of the players, I think this team has the talent to succeed and they are not being put in the position to win.
Unrealistic  
Coughlin's Rules : 10/19/2014 8:08 pm : link
We just went toe to toe with the best team in the league. Our talent does not compare. Our best I weapons are Eli, a rookie Wr, a rookie Rb and an undrafted Te. Our D just lost their Top 2 secondary and Lb players. Our DL is not adequate to beat this OL one on one with that Rb.
Well, they lose Joseph  
Giants2012 : 10/19/2014 8:08 pm : link
So they can gve Hankins a shot

Then draft Bromley, etc

Can't keep them all but can't keep using top draft picks on the same position either. Getting blindsided when neglected positions are weak is getting old.
As I said on the game thread,  
81_Great_Dane : 10/19/2014 8:08 pm : link
I believe the Giants' search for a new head coach starts tomorrow. It's possible TC survives if the team somehow turns it around, but ownership can't be caught unprepared if they don't.
silverfox  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 10/19/2014 8:08 pm : link
they had room to sign so many free agents because they blew so many draft picks in five straight drafts.

And it's not like they signed a bunch of FA all-stars.
We are what our record says  
chiro56 : 10/19/2014 8:09 pm : link
3 and4. I think this team is close to contending. We have some talented play makers but no depth at some positions. I think our O cordinator is in learning mode and will improve as this season progresses. Our D does seem to play on its heals. We need to attack more. Love prince although Bryant had a big day. No pass rush. I think we go 7 and 2 next nine games.
you know what I am really tired off  
dairborn : 10/19/2014 8:10 pm : link
even with all of the mistakes...there was still a shot with under 6 minutes and I had no feeling like we were going to stop them. We left Prince on an island the whole second half and we couldn't stop the run and we got gashed on cutbacks again and again. I want to feel like we are going to stop them. I have lost all my faith in the defense. I am almost shocked when we stop them on 3rd down. We had them deep back in their own territory twice and had great field position and both times in 2 plays they flipped the field

I didn't think the offense played badly. I hated the play calling.....that run on 1st and 20 at the beginning of the first half at mid field just was horrible. ITS NOT WORKING COACH! Maybe the drive fails but lets throw to at least get in FG range and take a lead.



Bottom line...same problems week after week. Miscommunications in coverage and our rush doesn't get home. Gashed on cutback and 3rd downs are getting hopeless. Start rebuilding now with the firing of Perry FEWELL.

RE: After spending more for free agents in giants history..  
BlueHurricane : 10/19/2014 8:10 pm : link
In comment 11930060 silverfox said:
Quote:
...we still have the same problems. Saying its on the players at this point is ridiculous. Its obvious the coaching has to be addressed next and it starts with Coughlin. He's toast.


Everyone they bought is hurt.
RE: There is no  
MookGiants : 10/19/2014 8:13 pm : link
In comment 11930039 Josh in the City said:
Quote:
way for any of us to know if the talent is there to win b/c they're not being put in a position to succeed.


The OL isn't being put in a position to succeed? How about blocking the fucking guy in front of you! That has nothing to do with coaching, they can't fucking block to save there lives
This is not a particularly talented team  
Go Terps : 10/19/2014 8:14 pm : link
I think they're heading in a good direction with Pugh, Richburg, Williams, Beckham, and Donnell...but they need more to dig out of the hole created by the poor drafting of recent years. Lots of high picks that aren't even on the team anymore. You can't fix that in FA. Just have to restart the pipeline, which I think the last two drafts did.

But this team, this year, isn't a special group.
NYG  
Buck Dharma : 10/19/2014 8:14 pm : link
have not beat a good team since October 2012.
RE: As I said on the game thread,  
natefit : 10/19/2014 8:15 pm : link
In comment 11930078 81_Great_Dane said:
Quote:
I believe the Giants' search for a new head coach starts tomorrow. It's possible TC survives if the team somehow turns it around, but ownership can't be caught unprepared if they don't.

I was thinking the same thing. I think quietly, it DOES start tomorrow.
The tempo offense/2 minute drill offense was obviously working.  
Vin_Cuccs : 10/19/2014 8:15 pm : link
Why not use that more often? I understand that there must be a run-game element to keep the defense honest but ride the best player you have....THE QB!

The line is bad, the run game is non-existent, the defense had trouble stopping Dallas so put up points with the pass game.
RE: We are what our record says  
lecky : 10/19/2014 8:15 pm : link
In comment 11930088 chiro56 said:
Quote:
3 and4. I think this team is close to contending. We have some talented play makers but no depth at some positions. I think our O cordinator is in learning mode and will improve as this season progresses. Our D does seem to play on its heals. We need to attack more. Love prince although Bryant had a big day. No pass rush. I think we go 7 and 2 next nine games.


Saying we will go 7 and 2 in the next 9 games based on what? Just like our play the play calling is getting worst every game. We were there with our offense and just when we thought things would turn around, we go back to last years play calling. This is a professional football team that can not blitz or run a screen play. How is that possible in this day and age?
Finding Giants  
Giants2012 : 10/19/2014 8:15 pm : link
Can't wait for the next episode. "What Giants"?
Jerry had a bad game  
chiro56 : 10/19/2014 8:15 pm : link
Even I noticed.need schartz
The talent level on this team is lacking  
djm : 10/19/2014 8:15 pm : link
But the defense could play better. The offense is right around where i thought it would be. Not bad not great. The defense can go fuck itself especially fewell. I no longer trust the defense.
Pass rush  
stretch234 : 10/19/2014 8:20 pm : link
I actually think JPP look good in the pass rush. He showed some moves.

This is a division rival - they get the soft zone we play on 3rd down. If we have supposed pass rushers, did we see the 4 DE at all together

The defense plays not to lose and they lose more games that way
The offense is in dire need of a hr hitting rb  
djm : 10/19/2014 8:20 pm : link
And the oline needs a year of seasoning and probably another interior player but it Schwartz is the goods we are fine there. The Rbs are ok but ok doesn't win games in the 4th quarter of a tough game on the road. We need a star at rb to give this team an edge. Need another WR or TE.

The defense is a fucking joke. Should have known they would let down this year after everyone, including me, tripped all over themselves praising the 2013 defense.

DRC? Hurt always. JPP and hank are the only difference makers up front. Prince and rolle only legit players in the back 7.

Fewell is garbage. Brings nothing...
Another example:  
Vin_Cuccs : 10/19/2014 8:20 pm : link
Jason Pierre-Paul, Mathias Kiwanuka, Jonathan Hankins, Cullen Jenkins, Robert Ayers, Damontre Moore and Mike Patterson are better than Tyrone Crawford, Nick Hayden, Henry Melton, Jeremy Mincey, and George Selvie WHO COULDN'T EVEN MAKE THE GIANTS ROSTER!

What does that mean? The coaching staff isn't putting these players in positions to succeed and the young players aren't being developed.
My 7 and 2 predication  
chiro56 : 10/19/2014 8:22 pm : link
Is based on the learning curve, getting players back , our schedule , and wishful thinking
RE: Dallas is better. I do not disagree with you Eric.  
HomerJones45 : 10/19/2014 8:23 pm : link
In comment 11930050 Vin_Cuccs said:
Quote:
But the Giants have talent up and down the roster. Not at all positions, but they should not be as up and down as they are.

As I mentioned, the inconsistencies are what drive me crazy.

Example: the Dallas defense is not nearly as talented as the Giants defense. They signed guys off the street. But yet they whipped the Giants. The coaching staff for Dallas has the defense playing hard and they are schematically sound.
lthe cowboy offense helps their defense out a lot.

And no, we don't have talent up and down the roster. We have no Bryant, no Witten, we have no Murray. We are slow at lb and are basically playing with one safety. There are only so many holes you can cover.
This team is not that talented  
Joey in VA : 10/19/2014 8:25 pm : link
You vastly overrate our talent. Gone are our two best run defenders from a year ago along with our best safety and the D can't stop anyone with an actual offense. Why the surprise?

We have two complete castoffs starting on the OL, a terrible 2nd year RT, promising LG who should be at C and a whiny headcase of a LT. We have no speed aside from Beckam, and a ton of lazy players on offense who don't do the little things winners do.

What the fuck are you expecting? Jenkins is done, Patterson is done, Kuhn is fucking terrible, Kiwi is like playing with 10 people, Beason is shot, McClain is nothing, and our vaunted DB bonanza is shot due to, shockingly, injuries.

This team is not good. We have some good players in spots but this is NOT NOT NOT a playoff team. No way no how. You don't shit the bed against the Eagles and let the Cowboys absolutely trample you if you are a playoff team. No guts, no heart, no hustle and very little good talent.
The team has enough talent ...  
Mike in Raleigh : 10/19/2014 8:25 pm : link
to be 5-2 or 4-3 (AT LEAST) ... when they are at FULL STRENGTH ... (with Jennings, Schwarz, Beason, etc.) ... now ... IMO ... it is time for them to find out about the young talent they supposedly have (as mentioned above).
-
I think the Giants are about 3 solid players from being SB contenders again - IMHO. (could be 4 - with 2 of them being OL). :)
WHERE is our Defense so very talented?  
Joey in VA : 10/19/2014 8:28 pm : link
Hankins, JPP...and....and...who? Rolle is not even close to the player we saw last year and everyone else is a never was and or has been. DRC makes a ton of money but when has he been a shutdown corner teams respect? NEVER..not once, never. He's our savior on defense? Quintin Demps is absolutely fucking shit, Hosley is nothing, Amukamara is average to middling and don't get me started on our horrific LBs. More talented??? Where? WHERE?

If you think we are vastly more talented than anyone anywhere, you need your fucking head examined.
I laughed when the cowgirls  
DavidinBMNY : 10/19/2014 8:28 pm : link
Hired a slew of coaches who were head coaches. Now I am crying that they have Marinelli and we have Fewell.
Out quicked  
Jupiter : 10/19/2014 8:29 pm : link
It always seems that every team the Giants play is quicker on offense and defense.
Joey in VA  
Vin_Cuccs : 10/19/2014 8:31 pm : link
Quote:
No guts, no heart, no hustle and very little good talent.


I agree with this, but I put this on the coaching staff. Not the players.

My frustration stems from desire. You could make an argument that if you are the Dallas GM, you would trade almost every player on the Cowboys defense for the corresponding player on the Giants defense. What's the difference? The Dallas defense has heart hustle and coaching.

Don't get me wrong, Jerry Jones is just as clueless as ever, I think he just lucked into a semi-decent coaching staff and a band of misfits that play hard and hustle.
Another example"  
Vin_Cuccs : 10/19/2014 8:33 pm : link
John Harbaugh. The 49ers players can't stand him but he is a master motivator and they play their asses off for him.
Vin, I couldn't have said it better:  
mrvax : 10/19/2014 8:33 pm : link
Quote:
It’s the little things. The frequent, drive killing/drive extending penalties. The stubbornness/repetitiveness of play calling. What seems to be a lack of desire/motivation at times. What seems to be a lack of preparation. The mental errors and lack of in-game adjustments is maddening. The nagging injuries. They can’t win the close ones. They are making the critical mistakes to lose games. For a coach that emphasizes attention to detail, this is poorly coached team. They can’t make plays when plays need to be made on either side of the ball. The inconsistencies with this team are completely mind-boggling. Lately, this team has come up small in big spots.


I've never posted this before but after the last 2 games (not based solely on them, mind you) I believe it's time for Coughlin to ride off into the sunset.

Sometimes you do have to change for the sake of changing. I like McAdoo quite a bit and I hope it was Coughlin's idea to run the ball far too often today, not McAdoo's.
I agree that  
TheNeumann64 : 10/19/2014 8:35 pm : link
this is a different situation than say 2010 or 2012. The talent on those team was on par with the teams that won titles, and they were done in by heartbreaking losses, and things that felt controllable.

This team? Sure there's some nice players, but I don't think they're any more talented than most other mediocre NFL teams. If they played Jacksonville, Washington, and Tennessee the next 3 weeks, they'd very possibly go on another 3 game winning streak and get us all excited again. The fact is they play 3 more good teams, and will be serious underdogs in all of them.

The talent is not bottom-5 in the league, but it's not anywhere near the upper tier of the league either.
Joey in VA  
Vin_Cuccs : 10/19/2014 8:37 pm : link
Here is yet another example: Dallas lost their best two defensive players (Sean Lee and DeMarcus Ware) prior to the season. They literally signed guys off the street. And they lost another pretty good player (Morris Claiborne) after a few games. But yet the guys they had playing surely beat the Giants asses.

Why? Coaching.
Vin_Cuccs  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 10/19/2014 8:41 pm : link
Everyone in Dallas was ready to fire their coaching staff last year.
I stopeed at 'moderately respected poster'....  
SHO'NUFF : 10/19/2014 8:41 pm : link
lol...j/k...

talent is a valid point, but good coaches can coach them up...we're not the only team with injuries.
.....  
Micko : 10/19/2014 8:44 pm : link
What happens if donell doesn't fumble the first one? Fine line between winning and losing here. We were in that game.
Eric  
Vin_Cuccs : 10/19/2014 8:45 pm : link
I'm well aware they were ready to fire everyone. But what happened?

Marinelli came in and lit a fire under the asses of the defense.

Linehan came in and stabilized the offense and stopped Garrett from passing almost 70% of the time.

Now look. 6-1.
and who is teaching and/or drilling into his head  
SHO'NUFF : 10/19/2014 8:46 pm : link
Donnell to secure the ball?
....  
Micko : 10/19/2014 8:49 pm : link
The guy was doing everything he could to get a first down at a desperate time during the game? That's on TC? How about Eli for throwing a short pass on 3rd down?
Marinelli has made chicken salad  
SHO'NUFF : 10/19/2014 8:49 pm : link
out of chicken shit...Fewell? He turned chicken shit into dog shit...whatever that means...lol
......  
Micko : 10/19/2014 8:50 pm : link
We're two offensive lineman away for being a great offense.
If this is a result of emphasizing attention to detail...  
hitchchops : 10/19/2014 8:51 pm : link
...then he should try ignoring it for a few weeks, because some games it looks like they are figuring out a plan on the fly, and they often seem unprepared for what the opponent does best
personally i have a tough time with the notion  
MarshallOnMontana : 10/19/2014 8:54 pm : link
That we have underachieved or left runs on the table during this era, my view is essentially the exact opposite. I still have no clue how we won the 2 sb we did. I will forever be grateful for it, but i also think what transpired was just about the best possible outcome with this group if you simulated this run a billion times. They were the ultimate overachievers that ive ever seen in the macro sense. Tough for me to take an argument to the contrary even if there are micro beefs that have validity. We had no business winning these 2 sbs though
^ oh c'mon  
Overseer : 10/19/2014 9:01 pm : link
I agree to an extent about SB46. That was a very poor team at times that year, esp on D, and they absolutely "got hot" to win it all.

But 2007 was filled with quality players. The LBs and secondary were so-so at times (although Webster's rise was crazy), but the Dline was borderline historically good, great D-coordinator, strong O-line, strong at the skill positions, rookies contributing. You can't argue SB42 was flukish b/c they played NE tight week 17, too.

The general point that this team has under Coughlin been mostly mediocre and fortunate to have these crazy highs is on point, however. Very frustrating. No consistency at all.

Will let the season play out, but if it's another 8-8 or worse year, I'm good with a chance.
change*  
Overseer : 10/19/2014 9:03 pm : link
obviously.
A few thoughts  
Matt M. : 10/19/2014 9:05 pm : link
1) Chris r - the D was bad the year they won the SB also. They just got hot at the right time.

2) every year Fewell's D has had trouble getting pressure, ineffective blitzes, communication problems in the secondary, allowing teams off the hook on 3rd and long, failed to get the big stops when they ned them, etc. he sucks and should have been fired 2 years ago.

3) I love Coughlin and am thrilled he was hired when he was. But, if they fail to make the playoffs again, which looks very likely, then it is his time to go. For a couple of years now, we have been completely outplayed too many times. More importantly, we have played with a lack of discipline the is supposed to abhor.
Good thread.  
bceagle05 : 10/19/2014 9:08 pm : link
I'm just glad Eli is proving he has enough in the tank to get through another rebuilding cycle.

The mistake we made is starting the rebuilding process a year too late. We patched together a veteran roster last year on the faint hope we could play a Super Bowl at MetLife, and it blew up in our faces. We've made progress since then, but there's plenty more that needs to be done. It all starts in the trenches. We need to beef up our defensive line if we plan on stopping Dallas or Philly anytime soon. They have monster OLs.
Vin_Cuccs  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 10/19/2014 9:10 pm : link
they have the best OL in the NFL combined with premium talent at the skill positions. Pressure is off Romo now.

Coaching matters but Dallas is a much better team.
P.S.  
Vin_Cuccs : 10/19/2014 9:10 pm : link
Dallas has beaten the Giants 3 in a row and 4 of the last 5.

Philadelphia has beaten the Giants 6 out of the last 9.

Just to make everyone aware.
the thing that bothers me most about hte Giants  
chris r : 10/19/2014 9:12 pm : link
the past few years is we're just not very physical.

We get pushed around a lot on both lines.
Agree with you 100%!  
prdave73 : 10/19/2014 9:13 pm : link
Sure we could use some more talent at the Oline position, but this team does have some good talent. Unfortunately they lack good coaches.. It is time for change and hopefully it come soon..
both sb 42 and 46 were historically improbable  
MarshallOnMontana : 10/19/2014 9:14 pm : link
The two of them both happening is incomprehensible. Any notion painting the gmen of this era as somehow having left a lot on the table is so tone deaf. Go ask the colts or pats or eagles fans of this past decade about that notion. This team had two incredibly well timed one month stretches, that both still could have easily been derailed at any point by literally a single play. They grossly overachieved in these instances and that wrongly colored the perception by some. This isnt some sob story about some destined dynasty who should have won 3 or 4 sbs and settled for two. This is instead the most improbable multi time champ for an era the nfl has ever produced. Exactly the opposite of how theyre painted by some here

im fine for moving on fro coughlin after this year too because it always goes stale. But please dont try and sell me on the gints of his era as having done anything but grossly overachieved to win the 2 sb they did
RE: the thing that bothers me most about hte Giants  
BlueHurricane : 10/19/2014 9:15 pm : link
In comment 11930382 chris r said:
Quote:
the past few years is we're just not very physical.

We get pushed around a lot on both lines.


That is on Reese.
RE: both sb 42 and 46 were historically improbable  
chris r : 10/19/2014 9:16 pm : link
In comment 11930389 MarshallOnMontana said:
Quote:
The two of them both happening is incomprehensible. Any notion painting the gmen of this era as somehow having left a lot on the table is so tone deaf. Go ask the colts or pats or eagles fans of this past decade about that notion. This team had two incredibly well timed one month stretches, that both still could have easily been derailed at any point by literally a single play. They grossly overachieved in these instances and that wrongly colored the perception by some. This isnt some sob story about some destined dynasty who should have won 3 or 4 sbs and settled for two. This is instead the most improbable multi time champ for an era the nfl has ever produced. Exactly the opposite of how theyre painted by some here

im fine for moving on fro coughlin after this year too because it always goes stale. But please dont try and sell me on the gints of his era as having done anything but grossly overachieved to win the 2 sb they did


2008 they were the best team in football.
yes, it's very simple  
Overseer : 10/19/2014 9:17 pm : link
Philly and Dallas have drafted well in recent years the Giants have not. You can only "patch" so many positions (Jennings when he's healthy at RB seems to have worked, for instance).

Walton, Mosley, maybe Pugh, Kiwi, Williams, Parker, Demps...these are JAGs or worse. And they're out there against quality opponents. Recipe for loss.
RE: P.S.  
SHO'NUFF : 10/19/2014 9:18 pm : link
In comment 11930378 Vin_Cuccs said:
Quote:
Dallas has beaten the Giants 3 in a row and 4 of the last 5.

Philadelphia has beaten the Giants 6 out of the last 9.

Just to make everyone aware.


usually the same way each time, too.

Dallas kills us with TEs and Philly D with the inside blitz.
I'm not disagreeing with you Eric, but....  
Vin_Cuccs : 10/19/2014 9:19 pm : link
....but why are they the better team? Better coaching. Better player development.

Look at the line for example: sure Smith, Martin and Frederick are 1st all round picks.

Pugh is a 1st round pick and Richburg and Beatty are 2nd round picks. So they all have talent.

So why are Richburg, Beatty and Pugh so inconsistent why Smith, Martin and Frederick are considered some of the best? My guess is coaching.

Is Jerry Jones a superior GM to Jerry Reese? I am not buying that for a single minute. So what is the difference? Coaching and ability to develop young talent.

Example: Ronald Leary and Jeremy Purnell, both undrafted, played extremely well today. Why? They have grown in system and been developed.

I am looking squarely at Pat Flaherty in regards to the struggles of the offensive linemen.
The reality is  
giantsfan227B : 10/19/2014 9:21 pm : link
this team is mediocre at best. We have sucked against top competition over the last few seasons but beat teams like Houston, Atlanta and Washington. We have Indy, Seattle and SF coming up. At best we go 1-2. Plus we have Dallas and Philly. At best we go 2-3 in those games. Let's take a huge leap of faith and assume we beat Jacksonville, Tennessee, STL and Washington we will have 9 wins. And that is assuming we actually take 2 out of those very difficult games and don't choke against a team like the Rams who beat Seattle today.

I don't think we go 9-7. I think we will have another 7-9 record and that to me means it is time for a major change. Missing the playoffs year after year and then having 2 losing years in a row. You can't just say better luck next year.
RE: both sb 42 and 46 were historically improbable  
Overseer : 10/19/2014 9:21 pm : link
In comment 11930389 MarshallOnMontana said:
Quote:
The two of them both happening is incomprehensible. Any notion painting the gmen of this era as somehow having left a lot on the table is so tone deaf. Go ask the colts or pats or eagles fans of this past decade about that notion. This team had two incredibly well timed one month stretches, that both still could have easily been derailed at any point by literally a single play. They grossly overachieved in these instances and that wrongly colored the perception by some. This isnt some sob story about some destined dynasty who should have won 3 or 4 sbs and settled for two. This is instead the most improbable multi time champ for an era the nfl has ever produced. Exactly the opposite of how theyre painted by some here

im fine for moving on fro coughlin after this year too because it always goes stale. But please dont try and sell me on the gints of his era as having done anything but grossly overachieved to win the 2 sb they did

I don't see how you can argue SB42 was "grossly overachieving". They were a quality team that just needed to figure some things out. After the 1st 2 games and outside of the Vikings debacle, every game was a win or pretty close that year.

The evidence that they were organically building a quality team and not a streaky fluke...look no further than the following season where, as chris points out, they were a juggernaut until fuckface shot himself.
SHO'NUFF  
Vin_Cuccs : 10/19/2014 9:22 pm : link
I couldn't agree more.

And here is the issue I have: why aren't those adjustments made?

Everyone under the sun knows Philadelphia will blitz in the A gaps and Dallas will run intermediate routes with TE's. Why aren't there game plans to prevent this?
To elaborate  
chris r : 10/19/2014 9:23 pm : link
42 wasn't overachieving; we continued that level of play most of the next season.

46 was overachieving.
chris r  
MarshallOnMontana : 10/19/2014 9:26 pm : link
No such claim could ever be made definitively. For 3 months the giants were perceived as the best tesm. And most years the team viewed as the consensus best at that point in the season does not win the sb. That would have likely been the 08 giants fate too with or without plax. Because its hard to win a sb and a ton of things have to come together, including but not limited to peaking at the right time which is far from an exact science. All the more reason why its insane this group somehow won 2 sbs, and why its ridiculous to act like we have been robbed of some dynasty. We have been beyond incredibly likely
The Giantts went 15-1 over a 16 game stretch..  
Sean : 10/19/2014 9:27 pm : link
from the 07 playoffs through the 11-1 start in 08.

An improbable fluke towards that SB is off base.
I guess  
MookGiants : 10/19/2014 9:27 pm : link
Flaherty forgot how to coach o-lineman? Some of the best lines the Giants have ever had came under his watch.
RE: chris r  
chris r : 10/19/2014 9:30 pm : link
In comment 11930418 MarshallOnMontana said:
Quote:
No such claim could ever be made definitively. For 3 months the giants were perceived as the best tesm. And most years the team viewed as the consensus best at that point in the season does not win the sb. That would have likely been the 08 giants fate too with or without plax. Because its hard to win a sb and a ton of things have to come together, including but not limited to peaking at the right time which is far from an exact science. All the more reason why its insane this group somehow won 2 sbs, and why its ridiculous to act like we have been robbed of some dynasty. We have been beyond incredibly likely


See my previous post. I'm not saying the Giants got unlucky because they didn't win in 08; just that that season "vindicated" the 42 win as not being flukish. As Sean points out, they were 15-1 from that stretch till Plax went down. You don't do that by fluke.
Fair post but  
AnishPatel : 10/19/2014 9:30 pm : link
I don't think this team is too damn talented. I think this team isn't that talented , at least offensively. I think missing in draft picks has hurt us. I think we are a work in progress and it sucks that its wasting away our QBs prime.

Its up to Reese and Ross to add a lot more talent to both sides of the ball. As for the coached, that's on TC. Let's put it this way it took Mara to say something to get a coaching change. Does he have to do it again ? What about adding more talent to the team? We have so many sports to add talent and not enough draft picks to cover it all. Will we break the bank and sign big time free agents? Perhaps go after Suh?
come on with the revisionist history  
MarshallOnMontana : 10/19/2014 9:32 pm : link
Like the 07 giants were some hot pick to go all the way entering the playoffs. They were the first wildcard to ever win a title out of the nfc. They were even underdogs at tampa. They were touchdown plus dogs the next 3 weeks and even most of bbi had us losing to dallas for a 3rd time. Getting past that round was seen as an earth shaker, nevermind the events that even followed that. Are people trying to really sell the notion that the 07 giants were really anything other than one of the most improbable sb champs of all time? Because you would be wrong. And what they did in 2008 doesnt somehow change that
I doesn't matter what the experts saw  
chris r : 10/19/2014 9:34 pm : link
The Giants were a legitimately talented team with by far the best OL/DL combo in the game and a young QB who just came into his own towards the end of the 2007 season.

From the end of 2007 till near the end of 2008, the Giants were the best team in football and it wasn't that close.
the 2007 giants by no ones definition  
MarshallOnMontana : 10/19/2014 9:40 pm : link
Are anything other than one of the most improbable sb champions of all time. Any attempt to try to argue otherwise is just stunningly revisionist, and not widely held beyond the giants fanbase. That doesnt make the title count less. But its ridiculous to try and paint them as anything other than what they were.
Agree with much of your post Vin,  
j_rud : 10/19/2014 9:43 pm : link
especially just the general exasperation and the fear of wasting Eli. But I also think you're overeating the talent. Below average and inconsistent on the OL. Below average backfield. Suddenly very average receiving corp. Yet again, underperforming DEs, who are supposed to anchor the D. Nobody decent to put alongside Rolle and injuries have wiped out the CBs.

Dallas and Philly are better just about everywhere, on paper and as the last 2 weeks have proven on the field. Just about everywhere except QB, which brings us back to that mutual fear.
RE: the 2007 giants by no ones definition  
Sean : 10/19/2014 9:44 pm : link
In comment 11930468 MarshallOnMontana said:
Quote:
Are anything other than one of the most improbable sb champions of all time. Any attempt to try to argue otherwise is just stunningly revisionist, and not widely held beyond the giants fanbase. That doesnt make the title count less. But its ridiculous to try and paint them as anything other than what they were.


however you slice it, the TC/Eli administration has two titles which is better than a lot of teams in the NFL. It must make Eagle fans sick just thinking about, which is damn nice.
Mook  
Vin_Cuccs : 10/19/2014 9:48 pm : link
How else do you explain it?

Your telling me Beatty forgot how to play, Pugh regressed and Richburg is stagnant and Flaherty isn't to blame?

All high draft picks, all talented and now underachieving?

Flaherty has a wonderful history, I get that, but I am less than impressed over the last few seasons. Especially considering that Ron Leary and Jeremy Purnell (both undrafted) just put on a clinic.

How did they do so well? They (along with the other studs along the Dallas line) have been coached flawlessly.
Vin  
JonC : 10/19/2014 9:52 pm : link
Your paragraph beginning with the little things is accurate, imv, I'm been banging the drum as well for about two years.

But, it's also a lack of talent on the whole. There's a lot of pedestrian football players on this team, and there's a number of very young men seeing a lot of snaps because of injuries, and shite depth.

This was a 4-win team last season, it's probably a 6/7-win team this season if they can get some health intact. The OL, DL, LB, and DB ranks all lack parts, and the receiving corps is very young now. So, they're battling the sum of poor coaching, lack of talent, and growing pains all at once. Imo.

RE: Mook  
MookGiants : 10/19/2014 9:52 pm : link
In comment 11930492 Vin_Cuccs said:
Quote:
How else do you explain it?

Your telling me Beatty forgot how to play, Pugh regressed and Richburg is stagnant and Flaherty isn't to blame?

All high draft picks, all talented and now underachieving?

Flaherty has a wonderful history, I get that, but I am less than impressed over the last few seasons. Especially considering that Ron Leary and Jeremy Purnell (both undrafted) just put on a clinic.

How did they do so well? They (along with the other studs along the Dallas line) have been coached flawlessly.


I'm telling you that Beatty wasn't very good to begin with. Our offensive line got better when he got hurt in 2011. He's had exactly one decent season in his entire career here, never should have been given that type of contract. Pugh has to be hurt. Richburg is a rookie, not sure why you expect a rookie to play so well with hot garbage around him.

The Cowboys offensive line had many growing pains building this line. It didn't happen overnight, it took Smith time, even last year they were struggling in spots. They've built this over time, it didn't just magically happen because they have flawless coaching like you want to believe.
I still say Justin Pugh is playing hurt  
Ten Ton Hammer : 10/19/2014 9:53 pm : link
that huge elbow brace is a red flag.
j_rud  
Vin_Cuccs : 10/19/2014 9:55 pm : link
My confusion is the inconsistency.

So Pierre-Paul goes from 16.5 sacks to less than mediocre in less than 2 seasons?

Pugh goes from progressing and looking like the best lineman on the team to horrid?

The inconsistency, and more specifically, the regression is insane. When players regress like that after showing such promise, the blame has to be places at the feet of the coaching staff.

Or perhaps it is the scheme. Put your best players in positions to succeed.
Jon C  
Vin_Cuccs : 10/19/2014 9:57 pm : link
In regards to talent: maybe the Giants aren't the most talented team in the league but on paper, they have just as much talent, if not more than both Dallas and Philadelphia.

That leads me to believe the coaching staff is underachieving.

Especially at the main position: QB.
back injuries  
MookGiants : 10/19/2014 9:57 pm : link
tend to wreck players careers, but don't worry, that's the coaching staffs fault Vin!
They're also working through McAdoo's growing pains  
JonC : 10/19/2014 9:58 pm : link
as he's new to his role. And, Fewell's frequent oddball gameplans and in-game strategies continue.

A big problem is both lines are frequently losing their battles badly.
Maybe it was because of the contract year...  
Vin_Cuccs : 10/19/2014 9:59 pm : link
...but how does Beatty just fall off a cliff? His technique has been atrocious. That is Flaherty.

Pugh in poor position? Getting beat regularly? Also Flaherty.
I think people  
TheNeumann64 : 10/19/2014 9:59 pm : link
say the 2007 team was really good all year when comparing them to the 2011 team. To clarify, both were amazing, magical runs, and I cannot describe how happy I am to have experienced either. But in my opinion, the 2007 team was pretty solid all year, had some struggles with a young QB, but 4 of their 6 losses came to teams that went 13-3 or 16-0. And hell, even Washington was a playoff team that year. They elevated their game amazingly from Week 16 on.

The 2011 team was pretty mediocre all year, until Week 16. Essentially almost every one of their games came down to whether or not Eli could drive them down to win in the last few minutes, and luckily he was able to a lot of the time. They too played 6 outstanding weeks of football when it mattered most, but if the comparison is 2007 Giants Games 1-14 v. 2011 Giants Games 1-14, I think the 2007 team was better by a mile.
Vin  
JonC : 10/19/2014 10:00 pm : link
I don't think we're far less talented than Philly, but Dallas has a lot of really good players right now. And, while they still occasionally show blips of past mistakes, they're generally playing much better and are seeing the fruits of stronger talent acquisitions.

Coaching is undoubtedly part of the problem, imv.
RE: Maybe it was because of the contract year...  
MookGiants : 10/19/2014 10:00 pm : link
In comment 11930527 Vin_Cuccs said:
Quote:
...but how does Beatty just fall off a cliff? His technique has been atrocious. That is Flaherty.

Pugh in poor position? Getting beat regularly? Also Flaherty.


Beatty didnt just fall off of a cliff. He had one fluke season in his entire career. We got better in 2011 when he got hurt, and that was with the turnstile David Diehl at left tackle.
I understand Pierre-Paul was hurt.  
Vin_Cuccs : 10/19/2014 10:01 pm : link
He is healthy now though, is he not?

How about this: why is an ineffective Kiwanuka still starting if Ayers has clearly outplayed him? COACHING!
Agreed - TIME FOR A CHANGE  
Jim Burt64 : 10/19/2014 10:03 pm : link
Dallas? Ginger is a puppet to Jerrah... they have hired like 3 capable head coaches & great DC's to their staff...Thats why they have improved significantly.
one more thing on the 07 giants  
MarshallOnMontana : 10/19/2014 10:03 pm : link
Even if by some weird revisionist logic we look at them as having been the best team or most talented team that season, (a notion way beyond reality, but just for the sake of convo) do you understand how tough and improbable it is to still cash in and see it through with a sb trophy?

History will look back at the giants of the coughlin era as the complete opposite of underachievers, at least those with proper perspective. This team winning multiple sb in this era is incredible
It's not revisionist to call the 2007 team  
Overseer : 10/19/2014 10:04 pm : link
a quality one by the end and not "flukish". This was blatantly obvious in week 17. Do you not remember that game? The Pats were going all out to try to seal 16-0. There were quality players, old and young, all over that Giants roster and not just "names".

The reason they were not a hot pick and why even we as fans weren't totally confident in them was very simple: Eli was still decidedly in "is this guy really an NFL QB?" mode. Once he took that next step in the post-season it was basically the icing on the cake and they absolutely deserved to compete against TB, Dal, GB, and the 18-0 Pats.

A fact, again, re-inforced when we saw their continuation in 2008. You're extrapolating too far the true point that 2011 was totally over-achieving and the result of a hot streak. 2007 was the result of solid drafting (I mean, just that year were Ross, Smith, Boss, Bradshaw...nevermind the years before it) and a team getting better over the course of the season. All they needed was Eli to click.
And what happens if a new coach is brought on?  
Vin_Cuccs : 10/19/2014 10:04 pm : link
Is that coach obligated to keep McAdoo since he has only had one year? What if a new coach has a different offensive philosophy?

Will Fewell, McAdoo or Guinta get first crack at a new job? Will the majority of the staff stay put?
RE: I understand Pierre-Paul was hurt.  
MookGiants : 10/19/2014 10:04 pm : link
In comment 11930535 Vin_Cuccs said:
Quote:
He is healthy now though, is he not?

How about this: why is an ineffective Kiwanuka still starting if Ayers has clearly outplayed him? COACHING!


He has clearly not regained the explosion that he had prior to his back injury, and at this point he probably never will. Guess that's the coaches fault.
Who cares  
bceagle05 : 10/19/2014 10:10 pm : link
about the probability or improbability of the championships? They were earned in between the white lines. Of all the annoying things about the Giants being shitty, the thing that annoys me most is the feeling that the mysterious "football gods" are settling the score for the gifts they gave us. Fuck that. And before we start blowing the Eagles and Cowboys, let's wait and see if they have the stones to do what the Giants did twice. The last two Super Bowls to come from the NFC East came courtesy of the Giants - it wouldn't shock me if the next one does, too.
overseer  
MarshallOnMontana : 10/19/2014 10:12 pm : link
They won the sb. So they obviously crossed the threshold of having enough capable talent to conceivably win a sb. That doesnt mean them winning still wasnt incredibly unlikely. A month earlier merely giving the pats a game at our place for 3 quarters was seen as a moral victory. This is a team that won the sb a month later
I dunno  
santacruzom : 10/19/2014 10:19 pm : link
I mean, the Giants have already shown they'll very likely exceed my expectations and will probably win seven, maybe eight games this season. And that's without their best WR and their starting RB missing two games so far.

The Giants have a recent history of devaluing important aspects of football teams: Linebackers, safeties, special teams namely. That *cant* last forever can it? And we have oodles of cap space next year.
Mook  
Vin_Cuccs : 10/19/2014 10:20 pm : link
If you contend that the coaching staff is not a problem, we will just have to agree to disagree.

In my opinion, the coaches are responsible for developing players and putting them in the best position to make plays.

Right now that is not happening. If Pierre-Paul is still hurt our not the same player, it's time to look for other options. If he is healthy, then the coaching staff is not doing a good enough job of putting him in positions to be a disruptor. Either way, the coaching is the issue.
and what the team did in 08  
MarshallOnMontana : 10/19/2014 10:20 pm : link
Building on their improbable 07 run is absolutely irrelevant with regards to the viewing of the 07 team. They were different teams. Just as irrelevant as it is in the other direction as to how the 14 seattle team should color how we feel about the 13 team, which will remain one of the more dominant champs in the cap era even if they follow it up with 8-8 this season
It was 'unlikely'  
Overseer : 10/19/2014 10:24 pm : link
until and then not at all after Eli Manning took the next step. By week 17, a deserving SB team was fully in place below him. They were playing well.
you take unlikely to mean not deserving  
MarshallOnMontana : 10/19/2014 10:28 pm : link
It doesnt

and they were incredibly unlikely. One of the handful of most unlikely sb champs ever, surpassed by very few, including a later incarnation of themselves 4 years forward. Which is why its crazy to talk about this era like the franchise did snything but grossly over achieve
RE: I guess  
SHO'NUFF : 10/19/2014 10:30 pm : link
In comment 11930422 MookGiants said:
Quote:
Flaherty forgot how to coach o-lineman? Some of the best lines the Giants have ever had came under his watch.


His O-line unit has been going downhill since 2010...I'm still not sure how we won it all in 2011. His player evaluation is suspect (playing O'Hara and Diehl on their last legs) and he definitely hasn't coached up anybody in recent memory...Richburg may be the first, but hard to say since he's a rookie. Hope he doesn't go the way of Justin Pugh, getting worse as he spends more time with Coach Flaherty. Beatty was good, then bad, then decent enough this year. I don't know, I like Flaherty, but I think he should be held accountable.
SHO'NUFF  
Matt M. : 10/19/2014 10:35 pm : link
I don't think the issues with the OL are technique.
RE: the thing that bothers me most about hte Giants  
mrvax : 10/19/2014 10:52 pm : link
In comment 11930382 chris r said:
Quote:
the past few years is we're just not very physical.

We get pushed around a lot on both lines.


I agree with this. The defense scares no one. I hope we can draft/sign some fierce players to get that D respectful again.
To ''over-achieve''  
Overseer : 10/19/2014 10:56 pm : link
is players that aren't great achieving greatness (a SB ring)

2011: absolutely. These were mostly mediocre or good not great (dare I say even Nicks is in this category) players who just played out of their minds beginning with right about here. Carried on Eli's back.

2007's roster was filled with much better players, especially on the O-line. Rookies clicking, vets like Toomer and Strahan still playing at a high level. They just needed a QB. Once they had one, the run was not at all surprising.
RE: SHO'NUFF  
SHO'NUFF : 10/20/2014 12:23 am : link
In comment 11930646 Matt M. said:
Quote:
I don't think the issues with the OL are technique.


maybe it's Strength and Conditioning? because they always seem to be weaker than the man lining up opposite them
RE: RE: I guess  
dpinzow : 10/20/2014 12:52 am : link
In comment 11930635 SHO'NUFF said:
Quote:
In comment 11930422 MookGiants said:


Quote:


Flaherty forgot how to coach o-lineman? Some of the best lines the Giants have ever had came under his watch.



His O-line unit has been going downhill since 2010...I'm still not sure how we won it all in 2011. His player evaluation is suspect (playing O'Hara and Diehl on their last legs) and he definitely hasn't coached up anybody in recent memory...Richburg may be the first, but hard to say since he's a rookie. Hope he doesn't go the way of Justin Pugh, getting worse as he spends more time with Coach Flaherty. Beatty was good, then bad, then decent enough this year. I don't know, I like Flaherty, but I think he should be held accountable.


We won in 2011 because that was the one year in Eli's career where he went into god mode
I can deal with the fact that Prince simply can't handle Dez Bryant.  
Shockeyisthebest80 : 10/20/2014 1:06 am : link
That's a physical issue.

I can't deal with Gavin Escobar running wide open through the secondary and guys looking at each other like "I thought you had him!?!?"

The mental mistakes are maddening and make them look like a badly coached team.
RE: Joey in VA  
Joey in VA : 10/20/2014 5:52 am : link
In comment 11930263 Vin_Cuccs said:
Quote:
Here is yet another example: Dallas lost their best two defensive players (Sean Lee and DeMarcus Ware) prior to the season. They literally signed guys off the street. And they lost another pretty good player (Morris Claiborne) after a few games. But yet the guys they had playing surely beat the Giants asses.

Why? Coaching.

No way. Bruce Carter can play, so can Durant and McClain, you don't know who they are but that doesn't make them bad players. Look at what their DL did to us up front, that's not coaching that bigger better players across the board. Coaching is nowhere near what it's cracked up to be. You have a few very good coaches, some crap and the rest can be put in a pile. The Cowboys have premium talent on offense across the board and fast aggressive LBs who can tackle and a big deep DL that doesn't have a list of names you know but did they look untalented yesterday?

Talent wins, period. Coaches can help, schemes can help but this game comes down to the basics no matter how you slice it. Can you beat the man across from you ? No fiery speech or coaching tape can make you whip someone, you do that with leverage, speed, power and explosion coupled with knowledge of the position. You get that from your position coaches but this is the NFL, not pop warner, these guys know how to coach. It's WHO they coach that matters. This same idiot DC won a SB...because of great coaching? Is Spags the mastermind a great coach? NO. They both had insane DL talent and won because of it. They weren't great coaches, Dallas doesn't have great coaching they have very good football players.

I'm sorry you don't see that, perhaps spend a Sunday watching everyone BUT us and you'll see how poor our talent is.
...  
SanFranGiantsFan : 10/20/2014 6:03 am : link
I think you overrate our talent. I don't think our talent is all that good.
RE: RE: Joey in VA  
Dan in WNY : 10/20/2014 6:27 am : link
In comment 11930833 Joey in VA said:
Quote:


No way. Bruce Carter can play, so can Durant and McClain, you don't know who they are but that doesn't make them bad players. Look at what their DL did to us up front, that's not coaching that bigger better players across the board. Coaching is nowhere near what it's cracked up to be. You have a few very good coaches, some crap and the rest can be put in a pile. The Cowboys have premium talent on offense across the board and fast aggressive LBs who can tackle and a big deep DL that doesn't have a list of names you know but did they look untalented yesterday?

Talent wins, period. Coaches can help, schemes can help but this game comes down to the basics no matter how you slice it. Can you beat the man across from you ? No fiery speech or coaching tape can make you whip someone, you do that with leverage, speed, power and explosion coupled with knowledge of the position. You get that from your position coaches but this is the NFL, not pop warner, these guys know how to coach. It's WHO they coach that matters. This same idiot DC won a SB...because of great coaching? Is Spags the mastermind a great coach? NO. They both had insane DL talent and won because of it. They weren't great coaches, Dallas doesn't have great coaching they have very good football players.

I'm sorry you don't see that, perhaps spend a Sunday watching everyone BUT us and you'll see how poor our talent is.


Good post. Dallas also has finally gotten smart and is running the ball, taking pressure off Romo.
Re: talent  
Vin_Cuccs : 10/20/2014 6:51 am : link
I'm sorry but I just can't buy the fact that Dallas is more talented.

Durant, Carter and McClain are head and shoulders above Beason, McClain and Kennard/Williams?

Selvie, Hayden, Melton and Crawford are head and shoulders about Pierre-Paul, Kiwanuka, Jenkins and Hankins?

Church, Carr, Heath and Scandrick are better than Rodgers-Cromartie, Amukamara, Rolle and Demps?

I can make an argument that on paper, the Giants defense is better on every level.

So where is this issue coming from? In my humble opinion it is a lack of motivation, preparation and in-game adjustments by the coaching staff.
Re: talent on the o-linemen  
Vin_Cuccs : 10/20/2014 6:57 am : link
So between Pugh, Richburg, Beatty, Mosley, Brewer and Herman, all drafted recently, none of them can play?

I refuse to believe that all these players were/are just busts. If Reese misses on a few of them, I get that but all 6 of them? That sounds like a lack of ability to develop young offensive linemen to me.

So why is it that Dallas can sign throw away linemen like Ronald Leary and Jeremy Pernell and they step in and perform flawlessly?

In my opinion deficiency in coaching.
The divide in talent..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 10/20/2014 7:11 am : link
between teams (and even between players) has become razor thin.

That's why things like injuries factor so much into a team's success or failure. It is why if you lose a top WR like the Benagls did or several OL like the Falcons, you go from looking like a playoff team to an also-ran pretty quickly.

What has hurt the Giants recently is cluster injuries. Average depth isn't too bad, but get to the bottom of the barrel and you get screwed.

The OL isn't terrible. There's talent there - but a guy like Pugh is going to develop more quickly when he doesn't have to be the main guy from day 1. Inconsistency may not be a reflection of coaching - it may be a reflection of having a turnstile at certain OL positions. Dallas can afford to plug in new guys, because there are veteran lineman to tutor them. The Giants really don't have that.

On the flip side, the DL does. That's why young players seem to come along much more quickly on the DL as Giants. They are able to be more effective because they have veterans there to help and more overall talent to work with.

regarding the quality of the 2007 Giants relative to the 2011 team  
Greg from LI : 10/20/2014 8:21 am : link
I've made that same argument. Look at the trajectory of the team from 2005-2008: 11-5, 8-8, 10-6, 12-4. That was a really good team that had one off year in 2006. They got off to a slow start in 2007, and, following the disappointment in 2006, a lot of people wrote them off. Plus they hadn't won a playoff game in either of the previous two years, so people were skeptical of them even after they finished the season strong. They won it all and then were the best team in football for most of 2008 before injuries and controversy took their toll.

Now look at the 2011 team in that context. From 2009-2013, the Giants have gone 8-8, 10-6 (but collapsed late in the year and missed the playoffs), 9-7, 9-7 and 7-9. One playoff berth in that span. Yes, they got hot and made it count, but this is a franchise that's been treading water in recent seasons. 2011 was an abberration, there's no other way to put it.
I agree with it being time to move on.  
St. Jimmy : 10/20/2014 9:34 am : link
In fact, it was time to move on last year from Coughlin. Keeping Coughlin here is a short term answer even if it works out. The guy is not likely to be around 5 years from now as coach even if this team was to win the division this year which is out the window after the last two weeks.

I do not think the issue talent vs. coaching can be determined with the current state of the team. There is likely an issue with both so the ownership needs to move on from Tom. Let Reese pick his guy and if things do not improve within a few seasons, Reese should be gone.
RE: regarding the quality of the 2007 Giants relative to the 2011 team  
BrettNYG10 : 10/20/2014 11:50 am : link
In comment 11930932 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
I've made that same argument. Look at the trajectory of the team from 2005-2008: 11-5, 8-8, 10-6, 12-4. That was a really good team that had one off year in 2006. They got off to a slow start in 2007, and, following the disappointment in 2006, a lot of people wrote them off. Plus they hadn't won a playoff game in either of the previous two years, so people were skeptical of them even after they finished the season strong. They won it all and then were the best team in football for most of 2008 before injuries and controversy took their toll.

Now look at the 2011 team in that context. From 2009-2013, the Giants have gone 8-8, 10-6 (but collapsed late in the year and missed the playoffs), 9-7, 9-7 and 7-9. One playoff berth in that span. Yes, they got hot and made it count, but this is a franchise that's been treading water in recent seasons. 2011 was an abberration, there's no other way to put it.


I actually thought 2010 was a really good team - I thought we were going to make a run that year.

But 2007 was a really good team. But that was a year with a lot of high quality teams - and we played three of them in the playoffs.
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